Aberrant RPG - Disintegration Questions

[Asche]

In various forums ()some may be here, some may not) I have heard reference that Disintegration is the Uber Power. Is this true? If so, Why?

Is this power subject to this power uninterrupted Line of sight? I mean, if you are looking at someone through the walls, can you disintegrate them without hurting the wall? After all, there is no Bolt or equivelant involved.

What other neat tricks does this power allow that you use in your games that perhaps the editors at WW left out?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

There is a bolt, but since nothing other than a super tough nova can stop it, many STs allow you to shoot through things without stopping it. (Actually many insist that it does so).

Getting hit by disin normally does a minimum of 5 levels of Aggravated damage. Someone with M-Dex 5 would average about 15. Its a bad thing, don't get hit by it.

[Kane Knight]

How is the power defined? A plasma bolt, or disruption of molecular cohesion, or something else?

Some power schemes, I would accept it as just zapping the subject. Others, I would say there is a visible bolt or other effect. I'm sketcy on taking a power already so powerful and making it an uber-power, though.

It's true for all power schemes, I think. You're capable of defining Q Bolt as an invisible Telekinetic attack. There's ntohing that techinically mandates they have to see the attack coming, or that it radiates from the person, in any power instance I can recollect.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
You're capable of defining Q Bolt as an invisible Telekinetic attack. There's nothing that techinically mandates they have to see the attack coming, or that it radiates from the person, in any power instance I can recollect.

Technically true, but considering that it does have a range, and a direction etc, I'd say that most of the time you are doing agg damage to the air between you and your target. I'd also say that for an effect this powerfull, most node users just *sense* something going on. This is not a power that is made to opperate without side effects. Its just kind of broken without that.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:
Its just kind of broken without that.

Very true. Many of the aspects of definition, if not reigned in, are potentially game breaking. Just because it's not specifically mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

A Quantum 5 Q Bolt with the Agg extra functions like disintegrate. It doesn't mention that it gains any ability to fire through walls without hurting them.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
A Quantum 5 Q Bolt with the Agg extra functions like disintegrate.

It says somewhere that at Q=5, Q-Bolt+Agg *is* disintegrate.

Quote:

It doesn't mention that it gains any ability to fire through walls without hurting them.

I didn't mean without hurting them. It sort of adds a new meaning to the words "collateral damage". You toast your opponute, and then the wall behind him, etc. It makes so much sense that I'm not even sure if it counts as a house rule.

[Kane Knight]

YEs, it is disintegrate. I used functions like" because I didn't remember the wording. It says "treat it as disentegration." Still, it doesn't say it can fire through walls without scathing them, the original question here.

,,

Quote:

"can you disintegrate them without hurting the wall?"

You didn't mean it that way, perhaps, but responded to me, and I was addressing the original concept asked about here, in terms that the original wquestion clearly set up.

Can it hit someone who's behind a wall? Sure. Have it fire through the wall, disintegrating that, too. I'd say the health levels required to fry the wall would subtract from the total damamge, though.

[Jordan]

I think the original question was meant to ask whether the Disintegration power was direct or indirect.

A direct attack is one that moves from point A (The Attacker) to point B (The Target). If an object crosses this path at the right moment, than the attack affects the object rather than the target. This is the default for Q Bolt.

An indirect attack is one which affects a target regardless of intervening obstacles. As long as the source of power knows where his target is, he (or she) can affect it. This is the default for both Mental Blast and Telepathy.

From the way it is written in the rules, I would say that the default for Disintegrate would be direct. However, if you use strengths and weaknesses you can boost the range upto line of sight, effectively making the power indirect.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
...fire through the wall, disintegrating that, too. I'd say the health levels required to fry the wall would subtract from the total damamge, though.

That's where I'm not sure. Example: Joe Nova "Zapper" fires his disintegrate at Jane Nova. Jane has no defense. The bolt will do 8 health levels. Thinking quickly, she pulls the nearest baseline in front of her, knowing that he will take the entire bolt, leaving her unharmed.

I'd really like to say that both Jane & the baseline die horribly. If said baseline were secretly the Juggernaut, then I have no problem with him shielding her. But if you fire a disintegrate into a crowd of people, it really shouldn't stop at the first one.

[Loki]

It all comes down to the definition of the power. If you want the effect of disintegrate because you want the power to unravel molecular bonds (a suitable outgrowth of molecular alteration technique destruction, albeit more powerful) i would not see it as a bolt attack but instead as an attack against anything in line of sight. Of course if you have some power that lets you see in other places or someother way of detection then that could be used to aim the attack as well. Since the effect would not be a bolt but instead molecular destruction, then the target could not put a human or otherwise, sheild in front of him to protect him. It all comes down to effect.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:
That's where I'm not sure. Example: Joe Nova "Zapper" fires his disintegrate at Jane Nova. Jane has no defense. The bolt will do 8 health levels. Thinking quickly, she pulls the nearest baseline in front of her, knowing that he will take the entire bolt, leaving her unharmed.

I'd really like to say that both Jane & the baseline die horribly. If said baseline were secretly the Juggernaut, then I have no problem with him shielding her. But if you fire a disintegrate into a crowd of people, it really shouldn't stop at the first one.

Fair enough, if you want it that way. I don't see why a beam fired into a crowd, however, should ice everyone up to the target intended if it's only doing 8 levels of agg.

(I say only, using the term very loosely...)

[SpartanClear]

Quote:

Fair enough, if you want it that way. I don't see why a beam fired into a crowd, however, should ice everyone up to the target intended if it's only doing 8 levels of agg.

well said crowd has no agg soak so why should the beam lose its effectiveness?

shooting a death heat beam through a piece of paper doesn't reduce it's effectiveness although it will vaporize the paper...

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by SpartanClear:
well said crowd has no agg soak so why should the beam lose its effectiveness?

shooting a death heat beam through a piece of paper doesn't reduce it's effectiveness although it will vaporize the paper...

Firing a bullet through a standard A4 sheet of paper won't noticably reduce its effectiveness. Firing it through a wall will.

I think an analogy of paper's flawed here. A sheet of paper doesn't generally reduce the effectiveness of any attack. Would you tell me that a peice of paper actually has enough substance to merit soak or health levels? Would you make players roll to do damage to it? Might rolls to crush it?

If a beam is doing 6 levels of aggravated damage, I see no reason for it to get to pull double duty by dealing that damage at things in the way and at its desired target. Yes, mortals, and the general contents of a crowd have no soak. But they have health levels and take the damage being dealt. Therefore, I say it counts to the total damage dealt.

So, that above beam, which does six levels of damage is fired into a crowd. While the Nova has line of sight, a bystander is still in the way. As this innocent man is really an extra, he only has four health levels. With no soak, the bystander gets no defense to it, but it "costs" four levels of damage to pass on to the next subject. However, the Target Nova had better have some way to handle Agg damage, as she's got two remaining levels coming straight her way.

This makes sense to me. Doing a health level of damage should be doing a health level of damage, whether or not it can be soaked, and I think that takes up a point of damage that can be dealt. You can coneivably make a Disintegrate attack burrow through anything in a line out until the end of the power (Or something that soaks agg), but that makes no sense to me, and is going to be a nightmare for bookkeeping. Granted, it makes for some interesting vicuals.

It makes more sense to me that it loses power going through anything it damages. A sheet of paper is most likely negigible. A human body or foot thick brick wall is not. Will they survive? Probably not. Will they take that damage? YEah.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

That is of course the counter argument. But a bullet does about 4-6 levels of damage. I don't suggest standing behind someone taking a bullet.

Remember that Indiana Jones movie where he shoots through a line of 4 German soliders? ("Last Crusade?") Well that can happen. Some bullets stop at people. Lots more keep going.

Q-Bolt or Q-Bolt+Agg is more like a cannon shot than a bullet. If you are hiding behind a tank, then I think you get some soak. If behind a person, the case is less clear.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:
That is of course the counter argument. But a bullet does about 4-6 levels of damage. I don't suggest standing behind someone taking a bullet.

Remember that Indiana Jones movie where he shoots through a line of 4 German soliders? ("Last Crusade?") Well that can happen. Some bullets stop at people. Lots more keep going.

Q-Bolt or Q-Bolt+Agg is more like a cannon shot than a bullet. If you are hiding behind a tank, then I think you get some soak. If behind a person, the case is less clear.

Eh. Yes, I know. My fault for fighting a real world analogy with a real world analogy. It's a cinematic roleplaying game.

Not a lot I can say doesn't have an argument. Yes, it's a level three power. Yes, it should be incredibly useful. Yes, a lethal Quantum Bolt is pretty deadly to most people (Baseline or Nova) anyways.

I still think Having it deal aggravated damage is powerful enough. I don't think it needs any help being a badass power, so I don't see a point to making it even more of a bang for your buck. With all the things argued it can do (Bypass a dodge roll, cut through anything around it without costing levels of damage to the eventual target, fire without going through intervening space) showing up, it's no wonder it's always considered the uber power.

If it actually said anything about "This power will even chew through anything until it hits its target, then dealing full damage," I suppose I'd accept it, for that was the deliberate intent. I honestly don't think it was, I see no evidence it was, and Disintegrate seems plenty powerful as it is. But if you see it different, you're free to play it up that way.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Fair enough. Let's move back to game theory.

Agg damage can't be soaked. If you grab a baseline and hold them in front of you, aren't you soaking it? If you grab the lid to a trash can and use it as a shield, we would give you a soak bonus. Ditto with battle armor. Both of those are a lot tougher than that baseline.

(And not allowing a dodge against this moster is just insane. Everything not mental or area is dodgeable. )

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: David Smith ]

[Jordan]

No you're not. The poor shlub who happens to be your shield is. Think of it more like a parry rather than soak. Also, there is a difference between soaking damage and taking damage. When you soak damage, your not really being hurt by it. This is different from losing health leavels. Aggrivated damage bypasses the entire soak process unless the target has some special defence (like the hardbody extra). An Aggrivated attack still won't kill a person unless it does 8 levels of damage.

I have to agree with Kane Knight on this one. Unless you buy some sort of extra for this power the effect stops with the first person or object struck. There is nothing in the rule book that even hints otherwise.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:
Fair enough. Let's move back to game theory.

Agg damage can't be soaked. If you grab a baseline and hold them in front of you, aren't you soaking it? If you grab the lid to a trash can and use it as a shield, we would give you a soak bonus. Ditto with battle armor. Both of those are a lot tougher than that baseline.

(And not allowing a dodge against this moster is just insane. Everything not mental or area is dodgeable. )

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: David Smith ]

Not dodging it's an idea that kept creeping up on the White Wolf fora and mailing lists related to Abbie. I brought it up because, while I'm unsure if it ever came up here (Been too long), it's been made an argument on similar lines in the past (For that matter, the agg claws/MegaStrength debate...

It can't be soaked, no. I'm still not comfortable making it a catch all "Kill everything in a straight line until the end of the power's range" effect. I also see it as differnt when you throw in objects in the field. Yes, your point about armor is valid. Of course, it's also not treated as having health levels

So...Why not allow it? Why not make it cut a big hole through everything? Well, it's not about brute force. It's about damage so horrible or complete that it tears something apart. Doesn't say if it plows through other things to get there. Doesn't say the effect is "smart," which kinda falls into the homing extra.

I mean, one the one hand, it'd be fun to play up massive collateral damage from such attacks. On the other hand, I think that they'd mention something along the lines of "Causes (x) Damage to everything withing a direct line of the target within range." That kinda makes it different. It says instead, "a person or physical object."

Is it nitpicking? Perhaps. Pawing through the rules is giving me a headahce, because there are so many loopholes to argue either way. There's no exception made on cover fire for being able to see through things or blowing the cover away, much less for both. There's nothing to say you're wrong. There was also nothing to say Agg claws/Mstr was wrong until it was clarified, as Mega Strength does say "To close combat dice pools."

And to Asche, if you want an uninterupted Agg attack, go for Mental Blast with the aggravated extra. It never interacts with walls, so it will never interfere with them.

[Asche]

I never wanted an uninterrupted devastating aggravated attack. I was merely wondering about some other interpretations about the Disintegration power.

1. Many call it the uber power. Why?

2. In the main book, it speaks nothing about a bolt,beam or whatever for the powers affect. It Does state a range though. Which lead me to percieve that it was LOS oriented. So, if you can see through objects and intervening people, is not that all that is needed for the power to take full effect?

Take High End Perception enhancement and Blammo, you can disintegrate someone through a wall with no damage to the wall.

Same story with Disrupt and some other powers. It does NOT state any kind of beam or what-have-you shoots out and needs to hit the target.

And yes, by this description, I would not allow a Dodge roll.

Is this what makes it the Uber Power?

[Hugin]

I think that the lack of description is meant to leave it up to the player purchasing that power. Basically, you buy it, you tell the ST how it works. Is it a beam of energy that disrupts the connection between atoms? Are you creating a zone of free flowing anti-matter atoms that destroys everything it touches? How about a beam of such complete cold that it actually goes beyond absolute zero and the sub atomic particles themselves crack? Then, you decide if it works 'on a target' or 'is a beam of energy'.

Perhaps it is that variability that makes it an uber power? Described sufficiently and now the characters devestating attack can't be dodged or hidden from.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
In the main book, it speaks nothing about a bolt,beam or whatever for the powers affect. It Does state a range though. Which lead me to percieve that it was LOS oriented.

Line of Sight is an extra that you can slap on powers (more commonly known as "Extra Range" or some such).

Quote:

Same story with Disrupt and some other powers. It does NOT state any kind of beam or what-have-you shoots out and needs to hit the target. ...And yes, by this description, I would not allow a Dodge roll.

All powers are either dodge-able or resistable. Normally resistable powers are resisted with willpower, but some use node or something else. Disin uses Dex for its attack roll. It already ignores most defenses. What did you intend to resist it with? Willpower?

And undodgeable would fall under the extra called "Area" (where you get a very limited dodge).

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
I think that the lack of description is meant to leave it up to the player purchasing that power. Basically, you buy it, you tell the ST how it works. Is it a beam of energy that disrupts the connection between atoms? Are you creating a zone of free flowing anti-matter atoms that destroys everything it touches? How about a beam of such complete cold that it actually goes beyond absolute zero and the sub atomic particles themselves crack? Then, you decide if it works 'on a target' or 'is a beam of energy'.

Perhaps it is that variability that makes it an uber power? Described sufficiently and now the characters devestating attack can't be dodged or hidden from.

YEs. My original question of how it's defined. The book gives examples of dumping sand on fire immolate to snuff the Nova.

Flesh eating disinitegrate ain't gonna destroy (Or even really deal with) armor and the like, but I'd be sketchy on allowing somone to fire into a sealed suit if defining the power that way.

It is about definitions and working with the ST. I think that's the thing with David and I right here. I wouldn't allow it to be defined in such paramters of flowing through everything out to full range (Without some severe parameter restriction elsewhere), whereas he would. Tboh of us interpret it differently, however.

As for Disintegrate and los, Disintegrate has a defined range (Quantum+PR * 10 meters). IT can be fired up to doubler that range, but that doesn't give it line of sight. Increased range, as an extra, allows you to use the power out to line of sight (As previously mentioned), but at long range if it exceeds the medium range of the power.

I see nothing that would give Disintegrate Line of sight by itself.

Additionally, Disrupt has a resisted roll listed right in the power description. In the case of something like Disrupt, where the roll is given, I give it no dodge roll, as you're already given a resistance roll.

You could make a Disintegrate that forewent dodge, but it would require some sort of save, much like Mental Blast's will save.

[Asche]

Quote:

It Does state a range though. Which lead me to percieve that it was LOS oriented. So, if you can see through objects and intervening people, ....

When I said LOS, I also said it had a range. I was assuming you all would assume that I meant LOS within the Range listed. Meaning that if you had range of 150 meters, as long as you could percieve it with your vision (ie..LOS) you could disintegrate it.

And regarding the resistance roll; it was determined within our group that a Stamina roll was allowed

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Asche Lonn ]

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Core rules (page 178) "For the most part, powers are governed by the same rules that apply to other attacks. Hand-to-hand powers, such as Claws, can be blocked; ranged powers can be dodged. Mental powers (those noted as such in their description) may not be dodged or blocked, but they may typically be resisted..."

In other words, since Disin doesn't say otherwise, you should assume it allows a dodge.

This was true even before the errata in the PCG stated that at Q=5, Q-Bolt+Agg=Disin. And yes, Disin *does* have a bolt or something. You are supposed to supply an effect with disin; Fire, Radiation, Dehydration, or something similar. Just like Q-Bolt, just like most all the other powers.

With LOS attacks you have no upper limit to "long" range. If you can see it you can zap it, even from orbit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
I wouldn't allow it to be defined in such paramters of flowing through everything out to full range (Without some severe parameter restriction elsewhere), whereas [David] would.

Not quite. I'm only claiming that the argument could be made. Personally, I'd allow buildings and such to stop it, but not just a couple of baselines. (That "I pull a baseline in front of me" argument is just cheesy).

Q-Bolt isn't normally defined as a one-dimentional beam. Call it a cold bolt one meter wide. Thus if you fire it into a dense crowd, the first couple of people will each get hit by the full bolt. Considering we are dealing with extras, I think cinemagraphic damage is appropriate.

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: David Smith ]

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:
In other words, since Disin doesn't say otherwise, you should assume it allows a dodge.

This was true even before the errata in the PCG stated that at Q=5, Q-Bolt+Agg=Disin. And yes, Disin *does* have a bolt or something. You are supposed to supply an effect with disin; Fire, Radiation, Dehydration, or something similar. Just like Q-Bolt, just like most all the other powers.

With LOS attacks you have no upper limit to "long" range. If you can see it you can zap it, even from orbit.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
[qb]I wouldn't allow it to be defined in such paramters of flowing through everything out to full range (Without some severe parameter restriction elsewhere), whereas [David] would.

Not quite. I'm only claiming that the argument could be made. Personally, I'd allow buildings and such to stop it, but not just a couple of baselines. (That "I pull a baseline in front of me" argument is just cheesy).

Q-Bolt isn't normally defined as a one-dimentional beam. Call it a cold bolt one meter wide. Thus if you fire it into a dense crowd, the first couple of people will each get hit by the full bolt. Considering we are dealing with extras, I think cinemagraphic damage is appropriate.

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: David Smith ][/QB]

Either way. I'm saying you don't have to, and I don't. You were arguing in favor. Whether you support it or not, it doesn't really makew a difference to me.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:

Quote:

It Does state a range though. Which lead me to percieve that it was LOS oriented. So, if you can see through objects and intervening people, ....

When I said LOS, I also said it had a range. I was assuming you all would assume that I meant LOS within the Range listed. Meaning that if you had range of 150 meters, as long as you could percieve it with your vision (ie..LOS) you could disintegrate it.

And regarding the resistance roll; it was determined within our group that a Stamina roll was allowed

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Asche Lonn ]

Stamina roll works fine. Just keep in mind most definitions of a disintegrate are likel y to merit something more along the lines of a dodge roll, as pointed out with the erratta being what it is on Dis/vs/QBolt.

I'm still looking for something in the rules to make me buy into the bit about range=line of sight (Within range) bit. It's not a given that a Quantum bolt would be able to fire through walls because it has a range, yes?

[Asche]

well, well.

Two points and I have said enough and heard enough on this. Thank you all, mostly.

First

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:

Core rules (page 178) "For the most part, powers are governed by the same rules that apply to other attacks. Hand-to-hand powers, such as Claws, can be blocked; ranged powers can be dodged. Mental powers (those noted as such in their description) may not be dodged or blocked, but they may typically be resisted..."

,,

I cannot argue with canon really, can I? But note "For the most part..." and "..." but they may typically be resisted...". This in itself leaves room for misinterpretation. I apologize.

Second

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:

I'm still looking for something in the rules to make me buy into the bit about range=line of sight (Within range) bit. It's not a given that a Quantum bolt would be able to fire through walls because it has a range, yes?

,,

The mere name Quantum Bolt implies it is a beam or some force coming from the Nova. So yes, it does imply it will be hindered by intervening objects.

I know it leaves room in the Bolt definition as well for players to be original and further define their Bolt to avoid having the generic Bolt. But in whole, it Implies there IS a form of beam, bolt, breath, laser eyes, or what-have-you, emitting from the Nova or better yet, shooting from the heavens to the target.

Disintegration merely states that it does agg. in a given range. It is not defined as an area affect power so it must be directed to a specific target. To disintegrate the said target, one must percieve said target. Thus my mention of needing to see it, or being within your LOS, not beyond the range of Disintegration as listed.

I Love the system and the Game and I am thankful it is a rather loose ruled game. I was hoping to see how some of you interpreted it (Disint.).

Again, I regret wasting many of your times in this sortie.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
Again, I regret wasting many of your times in this sortie.

And what, precisely, would we be talking about instead?

[ 07-05-2002: Message edited by: Kirby1024 ]

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
The mere name Quantum Bolt implies it is a beam or some force coming from the Nova. So yes, it does imply it will be hindered by intervening objects.
I know it leaves room in the Bolt definition as well for players to be original and further define their Bolt to avoid having the generic Bolt. But in whole, it Implies there IS a form of beam, bolt, breath, laser eyes, or what-have-you, emitting from the Nova or better yet, shooting from the heavens to the target.

Disintegration merely states that it does agg. in a given range. It is not defined as an area affect power so it must be directed to a specific target. To disintegrate the said target, one must percieve said target. Thus my mention of needing to see it, or being within your LOS, not beyond the range of Disintegration as listed.

I Love the system and the Game and I am thankful it is a rather loose ruled game. I was hoping to see how some of you interpreted it (Disint.).

Again, I regret wasting many of your times in this sortie.

Quantum Bolt implies it, yes, by name. That in no way means that it has to be, as they've already covered power definitions before they got to this point in the book. Claws implies some sort of, well, claw, but we are shown it doesn't have to be limited to that.

Disintegrate, by lacking an implied statement, does not automatically, either stated or implied, man that it doesn't. Disintegrate isn't named "Disintegrate bolt," no, but I see no reason to assume that because it's named differently, it's automatic grounds for different effects not stated.

What would Felix Unger think?

Additionally, with the errata from the APG on Disintegrate/ Agg Quantum bolt, if you were to follow lines of assumption, the power is still called a bolt, which would imply that this power, treated as disintegrate, still has a bolt. I mean, following similar lines of assumption and all.

As for perceiving a target, I may be a little slow here, but don't you have to perceive a target to aim at it in the first place? What has that got to do with it? I see/I hear/I sense my target in some way before I aim. I could fire off randomly, too, but I'd still pick some of the specifics. Maybe it's as simple as "I shoot off into the distance," or as complex as "I think the Jade Nexxus is behind those crates. I'm going to aim one meter high into the center of the middle crate in hopes that I can at least flush her out."

Disintegrate doesn't immediately state you must perceive your target, so I don't see how you would think that perceiving your target here would be different than a prereq for claws, Q Blot, or Elemental Blast.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby1024:
And what, precisely, would we be talking about instead?

Indeed. I'm hardly seeing pressing business on these boards of late.

[Dr. Arcturus]

I seem to recall Scripture's description in the Teragen sourcebook stating that he could cause targets to fall to ashes from several miles away. I dont remember anything in that same description saying that he needed to actually see his target in order to inflict such grievously invasive damage to his intended target. Perhaps he has the area extra on his Disintegration attack, and I realize that he is definitly a Mastery class Nova, but I think it makes a serious case for the "non-emmiting" Disintegration.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Strobe:
I seem to recall Scripture's description in the Teragen sourcebook stating that he could cause targets to fall to ashes from several miles away. I dont remember anything in that same description saying that he needed to actually see his target in order to inflict such grievously invasive damage to his intended target. Perhaps he has the area extra on his Disintegration attack, and I realize that he is definitly a Mastery class Nova, but I think it makes a serious case for the "non-emmiting" Disintegration.

Scripture probably doesn't have Disintegration. He does have lots and lots of Mega-Perception (as implied by "hearing the voice of the world"). I'd also assume he has ESP or some such (or even a level 4 sensory power).

One of his big powers sounds like EC:Light. Assume Q=7 & 7 levels. The range on his EC:Light blast would be around 70 miles or so (books not handy). A lethal blast would do ([7*2]+7*2)*2 or 28[28]. If the target is a Nova, they might have a lethal soak of 10 (force field is down, etc). So, after soak, they take about 20 levels of lethal damage. On the first hit.

It doesn't have to be invasive or unsoakable.

[Dr. Arcturus]

Perhaps Scripture was a bad example (more than likely, since Im the only person I know of to have written the man up..), but their in certainly still a case to be made for a "non-emmiting" Disintegration. In the description of the Purification technique for Elemental Authority, their is the specific example of purifiying light, coverting it to one coherent wavelength, like a laser. Coupled with the Enhance/Diminish technique, the sunlight falling on an area of close to 70 miles could be converted to something so horribly devastating that everything fell to ashes. All of this wihout a projection effect and without being aimed (well, there is a target area, but its so large its pointless to say it is aimed at). Why couldn't such a thing be done with Disintegration?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Strobe:
...certainly still a case to be made for a "non-emmiting" Disintegration. In the description of the Purification technique for Elemental Authority, their is the specific example of purifiying light, coverting it to one coherent wavelength, like a laser. Coupled with the Enhance/Diminish technique, the sunlight falling on an area of close to 70 miles could be converted to something so horribly devastating that everything fell to ashes. All of this wihout a projection effect and without being aimed (well, there is a target area, but its so large its pointless to say it is aimed at). Why couldn't such a thing be done with Disintegration?

1) Because Disintegration is a modification of Q-Bolt.

2) If you read the Weather control power description, the "bolt" technique can be described as comming from a stormy sky. Your example has it come from the sun. How does that not have a projection technique?

3) Enhance/Diminish is an area effect thing. It certainly is possible to take Disin+Area, if you have a Q of 6+. Which in turn means that you really should find something other than a level 4/Q6+ power to support your argument.

[Asche]

Quote:

Originally posted by David Smith:

1) Because Disintegration is a modification of Q-Bolt.

Herin lies our (my) problem.
Question:
Where in the Blue Hell's does the canon state specifically that Disintegration is a modification of Q-Bolt?
Answer: Probably Nowhere.

Aberrant Books were written loosely, as were most if not all of White Wolfs Library. They are Made for varying interpretations to be made. Otherwise theym would have been less concise and anal-ly descriptive to avoid these kind of problems.
Its All in what style of game you want to run; Either your a Rules Lawyer or your not. For those of who Know the rules but like to have a little more flavor than normal, we let the rules interpret themselvs a wee bit loose, or vague if you will.

At least Strobe had the Cajones(sp?) to let his creative juices flow and made Scriptures stats. Many of you seem afraid to commit yourselves to such an undertaking.

PS.. in his example, he was not really projecting as defined by the Bolt since the Bolt was NOT coming form HIS hands, it was coming from an aree not directly connected to him, or indirect fire. Which is Exactly what my original post was implying about Disintegration. "Would you really need a DIRECT LOS to use this power?"

Just my $.02

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
Question:
Where in the Blue Hell's does the canon state specifically that Disintegration is a modification of Q-Bolt?

APG. Q-Bolt+Agg at Q=5 is Disintegration. I'd give you a quote and page number but my book isn't handy.

And I have no problem at all if someone wants to define disin as a curse from God or somesuch. Not all of them have to come as a ray of light from a nova's hands. For that matter, Joe Nova with Disin could pay a point of willpower and do an area of effect. ("Infinite Winds" anyone?).

But if one nova uses that power on another in combat, the defending nova can dodge. Maybe that dodge is really hard (i.e. needs Teleport because the Infinite Winds are coming) but Disin is not a resisted power, it is a ranged power.

I guess I don't quite understand the general issue here.
1) If the claim is that Scripture has a Agg+Area attack; I'd say that with a 28[28] attack, he doesn't need it, but he certainly is buff enough for it.
2) If the claim is that Scripture doesn't need to see his target to target him; I'd say that with Mega-Per 7 and level 4 perception powers, I'd have to agree.
3) If the claim is that because Scripture can do both of these things, anyone with Disin should also be able to; I have to say "Huh?!".

[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: David Smith ]

[Asche]

Quote:

From David Smith:
APG. Q-Bolt+Agg at Q=5 is Disintegration. I'd give you a quote and page number but my book isn't handy.

Its on page 63 or 64 as my memory serves me. And what it states is that with Quantum 5 and the Agg extra, the resulting Q-Bolt is treated as Disintegration.
Again, its rather loose aint it? IS it exactly like Disintegration or merely the same damage? I say its the same damage because thats wht the numbers add up to by their formulae. (Aggravated and Disintegration are identical damages at Q5)

Quote:

David Smith:
But if one nova uses that power on another in combat, the defending nova can dodge. Maybe that dodge is really hard (i.e. needs Teleport because the Infinite Winds are coming) but Disin is not a resisted power, it is a ranged power.

I agree, the dodge should be really hard, if you can even perceive or detect the attack coming.
I know the power is listed as a Dexterity based pool, so this assumption alone means it is a ranged or directed power. But again, where does it State that a Bolt is involved? Is it just everyones assumption that because it is a ranged attack that it possesses a Bolt of some sort?
I think there is a picture somewhere of Mal disintegrating the Sec. General. In the pic I believe there is no sign of a bolt, just Mal with an upraised, glowing hand.

My stand on this had been that the energies of the Disintegrate power are directed by mere will of the user and as the power takes affect the target might feel a bit uncomfortable for a split second before they pile into ashes. This is the time to dodge as it were. Who will stay in the same spot if they feel some sort of pain suddenly? Then again, what if they dont know their being attacked?

Oh well, I saved myself and my world from that dilemna by NOT allowing a dodge roll and making Disintegrate a Resistance power (Stamina + Resistance). There is no bolt or detectable energy emitting from the user, so no Dodge roll. Most of my decision to do such was thankfully a result of the friendly banter herein.

Thank you all. Once again, I say farewell to this topic.
Have a nice day.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
...the dodge should be really hard, if you can even perceive or detect the attack coming.

Fine, but we could say that is true of any power. Old Scripture is attacking from a dozen miles away, i.e. total suprise. I wouldn't give a dodge unless the target has danger sense, and remember that Scripture probably uses that power on baselines.

Quote:

I know the power is listed as a Dexterity based pool, so this assumption alone means it is a ranged or directed power.

But again, where does it State that a Bolt is involved? Is it just everyones assumption that because it is a ranged attack that it possesses a Bolt of some sort?

It doesn't state that you have to have a bolt. But it does state (core rules page 178 4th para) that you get a dodge.

Quote:

I think there is a picture somewhere of Mal disintegrating the Sec. General. In the pic I believe there is no sign of a bolt, just Mal with an upraised, glowing hand.

And he is in direct contact with him. And we are talking about a baseline. We could be looking at Claws+Agg (Mal could do 40 dice of that even with the erata), or he could just be doing a couple of hundred of levels of bashing/lethal damage. Mal really isn't a good person to take examples from, just like Scripture isn't.

Taking one level of lethal damage looks very different from one level of agg damage. But taking 8 agg (reducing someone to ashes) probably looks quite similar to taking 20 lethal (reducing someone to ashes).

Quote:

...what it states is that with Quantum 5 and the Agg extra, the resulting Q-Bolt is treated as Disintegration. IS it exactly like Disintegration or merely the same damage? I say its the same damage because thats wht the numbers add up to by their formulae. (Aggravated and Disintegration are identical damages at Q5)

Yes, they do the same damage. But we knew that before the erata. So why mention anything at all? My take on it runs as follows; there is a sentence in Stun Attack which says "very similar to q-bolt". That sentence isn't there for Disin, so presumably they (admittably confusingly) meant to say something like it for Disin. What they should have done is put erata for Disin, rather than just agg.

Quote:

My stand on this had been that the energies of the Disintegrate power are directed by mere will of the user...

Disin is a dex based power which means it isn't a mental attack. But yes, all q powers including strength are directed by will of the user.

Quote:

...and as the power takes affect the target might feel a bit uncomfortable for a split second before they pile into ashes. This is the time to dodge as it were. Who will stay in the same spot if they feel some sort of pain suddenly? Then again, what if they dont know their being attacked?

Again, if it is complete suprise, then they don't get a defensive action. But if I'm in combat with someone who has a serious rep, and I start to feel that way, I'd probably dodge. And "a split second" is a long time for some characters. You could also make the same argument about "Stun Attack" and "Q-Bolt" for that matter. ("My lethal Q-Bolt is defined as hard radiation, they can't see or hear it".) All q powers are normally defined as "creating something which creates that effect" and not just "creating that effect".

Quote:

Oh well, I saved myself and my world from that dilemna by NOT allowing a dodge roll and making Disintegrate a Resistance power (Stamina + Resistance). There is no bolt or detectable energy emitting from the user, so no Dodge roll.

It's your game, so you can do what you wish. Doing the math, it works out resonably well, but I do hope that this was made public before character creation since it effects game balance. As I see it, the following holds true;

1) Dex based characters are now much weaker. Spiderman (who dodges before the zap) and the Flash get zapped every time. (This also means that Totentaz should be given "Hardbody", otherwise he will get killed the first time he runs into someone with Disin+BlindFighting.)

2) Interestingly, Disin also gets weaker, the typical nova has a level of Mega-Stam and a Stam of 5. Thus he now has an effective "soak" of 4.1 vs 8 or so levels of damage. Baselines also have an average soak of 2.2 (spending willpower). Disin's damage is reduced because it doesn't get acc bonuses anymore.

3) Bricks get much stronger. The character I'm running (Mega-Stam 5) resists Disin with a 9.5 average, and he doesn't have hardbody or impervious defenses just yet.

4) Disin can't be combined with 5 levels of Density Decrease (although they could still buy Q-Bolt+Agg).

[Dr. Arcturus]

I suppose we are all going to have to agree to disagree on some of these points.

For my part, unless the Dis. has some sort of sensory element (hums as it advances; is some sort of glowing energy), I dont allow a dodge roll outside of combat. I bend this rule for characters familiar with the Dis. characters powers (they know what he can do, they will be on their guard), but even then those characters must make a cross skill Dodge+Perception roll to get out of the way (dodger must have Mega-Perception).

Other than that, hitting a target with Dis. is really a matter of range and manifestation for me (i.e. A character who knows where the target is (target must be in range) can peg the victim with his Molecular Disruptions not matter what the poor bastard does).

[Cin]

Wow.. let me point out a few things that seem to be overlooked.. (this mostly goes out to you, David Smith)

“It doesn't state that you have to have a bolt. But it does state (core rules page 178 4th para) that you get a dodge.”

Umm.. no. It does not state you get a dodge. It states that

"for the most part/U]” powers are governed by the same rules as hand-to-hand attacks."

See that little line “for the most part” that, right there, is a perfect example White Wolf leaving room for interpretation, like usual.. "For the most part” is NOT “ALWAYS” or “EXACTLY”. They give you the room right there in the canon book for you to make you own decisions and interpretations.

“Yes, they do the same damage. But we knew that before the errata. So why mention anything at all? My take on it runs as follows; there is a sentence in Stun Attack which says "very similar to q-bolt". That sentence isn't there for Disin, so presumably they (admittably confusingly) meant to say something like it for Disin. What they should have done is put errata for Disin, rather than just agg.“

They say TREAT it as Disintegration in reference to damage. It doesn’t say "treat it exactly like Disin in every respect." If it did then your range would drop by 1/3 as well.

“Disin is a dex based power which means it isn't a mental attack. But yes, all q powers including strength are directed by will of the user.“

Under TK it states that it is...

“the ability to lift and move objects without touching them by applying quantum energies to them. This ability may manifest as MENTAL POWER, focused winds, energy tentacles or talons, gravity manipulation or many other powers.”

Hmm.. there they give a specific example of TK as a mental power even though it uses Dex. Another example of WW leaving it's usual room for interpretation.

You are reading waaaay too much into things and take the words waaay too literally Just because a power uses DEX in the dice pool DOES NOT mean it is not mental. You can define your Disin as a mental attack if you so desire.

one last note..

Relax! Just because somebody did not come to the same interpretation as you, they are not wrong. There is alot of room within the rules for interpretation

Cin

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Wow.. let me point out a few things that seem to be overlooked.. (this mostly goes out to you, David Smith)

Thanks.

Quote:

Wow.. let me point out a few things that "for the most part/U]” powers are governed by the same rules as hand-to-hand attacks."

See that little line “for the most part” that, right there, is a perfect example White Wolf leaving room for interpretation, like usual.. "For the most part” is NOT “ALWAYS” or “EXACTLY”. They give you the room right there in the canon book for you to make you own decisions and interpretations.

Or that could mean, "when there are exceptions to this general rule, we will let you know".

Quote:

They say TREAT it as Disintegration in reference to damage. It doesn't say "treat it exactly like Disin in every respect." If it did then your range would drop by 1/3 as well.

I'd say that they Did mean "in every respect." I.e. my original contention; Disin=Q-Bolt+Agg. There simply is no reason for them to say in the errata "the math works without correction".

Quote:

Hmm.. there they give a specific example of TK as a mental power even though it uses Dex. Another example of WW leaving it's usual room for interpretation.

I'd say it is an example of poor editing. "Mental power" can be interpreted as "a power controlled by the mind" which all the powers presumably are. That is a "everyman" interpretation. WW has a specific definition for mental power and TK simply isn't one. It isn't listed as a mental power in other areas of the book, it can't be resisted with Psi-Shield, and it can't be chanelled through Telepathy+Channel.

Quote:

You are reading waaaay too much into things and take the words waaay too literally

Guilty, guilty, guilty. I am very literal. (Just a statment of fact). That gets me in trouble sometimes.

Quote:

Just because a power uses DEX in the dice pool DOES NOT mean it is not mental. You can define your Disin as a mental attack if you so desire.

Meaning it can be used at any range through telepathy & defended with via Psi-Shield?

Quote:

Relax! Just because somebody did not come to the same interpretation as you, they are not wrong. There is alot of room within the rules for interpretation

Another way of putting that is that the system almost begs house rules to cover gaps. And I have no problems with house rules (meaning the ST is in charge and what he says goes). I'd put this rule at the same level as "starting characters are built with 40 Nova points."

Actually I was impressed by how well his alternative rule works. But something like that should hopefully be anounced beforehand. For example: Typically I play either Dex based or Stam based characters. That rule would make the difference between which I'd want to play... which is a mute point since I'm not.