Aberrant: 200X - Energy Catalyst (another power for consideration)

[GDP_ST]

Another signature power I'm designing for Alex Andrews. Same drill as before All commentary welcome. If this power passes the gauntlet, I intend to implement it with the character immediately, replacing his Absorption power.

Energy Catalyst

Level: 3

Quantum Minimum: 5

Dice Pool: Stamina + Energy Catalyst

Range: Self

Area: N/A

Duration: Special

This signature power works exactly like Absorption (see Aberrant Core Rulebook), including requiring the expenditure of quantum pool, and draining away at the rate of 1 point per (Quantum + Power Rating) turns.

Where the power differs is in it's range of effect. When Energy Shunt is purchased, the player must 'tag' a number of mega-attributes or powers equal to the character's dots in Energy Shunt +1, associating these power with Energy Shunt. Henceforth these cannot be changed under normal circumstances. (ST fiat only). The nova may then divide any extra stat levels they successfully absorb (damage levels / 2) between these 'tagged' powers, able to raise each by their level in Energy Shunt (so long as they can pay the quantum pool for the absorption effect, of course).

This power can raise tagged stats above the nova's normal Quantum-imposed limits, but only by half the character's dots in Energy Catalyst (rounding down). Thus a nova with Energy Catalyst 5 and Quantum 5 could potentially boost a tagged mega-attribute to 7, assuming it was already 2. If the base stat were higher, the cap would still be 7.

Example: A nova with Q5 and Energy Cat. 5 has tagged their Forcefield power, which is rank 4. Even though their rank in this power allow for 5 dots of increase, the power can go no further than 7 regardless.

[Courier]

Isn't there already an extra which allows you to affect more than one mega?

[GDP_ST]

There isn't in the RAW rules, though one could certainly be implemented similar to the Boost extra that lets the nova Boost more than one attribute or power.

The point of this power is that it is supposed to be a higher order of energy-redirect effect than Absorption: the next step up the tree. It needs Q5 as opposed to Q1, and is Level 3. It is designed to be on par with the various suite powers in terms of versatility and power. Not to mention that unlike Boost, this effect requires 1 QP for each dot absorbed and raised, which can get expensive when split between potentially 6 different mega-apps and powers (in the case of a nova with Energy Catalyst 5).

In play, unless the nova has a huge Q pool, this power will quickly tap their reserves.

Example:

Alex gets bombarded with another nova's Q-bolt. He rolls well and absorbs 14 levels of damage from the attack, paying 1 QP for each damage level. This gives him 7 dots he can divide between his tagged powers or M-atts. As his Energy Catalyst only rank 4, he can only put up to 4 dots into any one tagged stat/power. So he elects to throw 4 into his Armor and 3 into his own Q-bolt, raising both to rank 6 for 9 turns(Q + power rating turns), when they fall to 5, then 9 turns later to 4, etc. It's a huge boost in power, but he's also down 14 QP.

Next round he activates super-heavy on his Armor (3QP) and lets rip with his Ray o' Sunshine (also 3QP). He's down 20 QP now. His quantum pool is 30, so he's got 3 more shots from his Q-bolt left in him, and that's not taking into account any other uses he might have for those 10 remaining QP.

Now if he develops the Quantum Leech power (and I won't lie, I intend to. Alex's whole concept, as a walking collection of living fusion cells, is energy manipulation and production: being able to absorb quantum directly is a natural follow-on) some of the problem goes away. Likewise, I can (and will) hurl tons of XP at his quantum pool to raise it. But I believe the power above is fundamentally balanced in terms of cost, prerequisites, and gameplay. Hell, if someone with M-Str clobbers him, Alex takes lumps just like the next guy.

[Bombshell]

Oooooh, yeaaaaah. Forgot it took two absorbed levels to raise something by a rank. Okay, I don't have an issue with the q-cost anymore. Though I would say this power, and Absorption if it doesn't already, can't pump a power above 5 dots/ranks, just like the Boost power.

I'm willing to let Alex give this power a shot and try it out.

[GDP_ST]

Hmm. In my TT group we always played Absorb as being able to raise to whatever, the limit to how many ranks added being the ranks in Absorb. Otherwise Boost kicks the shit out of Absorb when it comes to cost, and doesn't lose anywhere else.

Like I said before, Absorb gives one hell of a lift, but you both have to roll the requisite succs (like Boost) then pay for each success, then halve the succs to find out your increase.

The checks and balances are built-in.

[Bombshell]

I will have to respectably disagree with your comparison of Absorb to Boost, for a number of reasons.

1- Boost can only be used once per scene, whereas Absorb can be used as much as you can afford.

2- Absorb actually negates a Health Level of damage per success. Yes, it's a poor return compared to any other Defense power, but on the other hand, you can use it whenever you want, whenever you need that little extra.

3- The biggest difference, to use Boost, you roll Quantum + Power Rating, which isn't as good a Stamina + M-Sta + Power Rating. Even at higher levels of Quantum, when Boost might start closing in, getting a dot or two of M-Sta isn't expensive and pretty much any character who buys Absorb has some M-Sta anyway. Rolling an Attribute is almost invariably better than rolling Quantum. Now, if Absorb/Energy Catalyst rolled Quantum + Power Rating, I'd have to give it some thought.

[GDP_ST]

Okay, leaving aside my already-made points about cost and power-drain, cos repeating myself makes me feel like stuck vinyl. Though not stuck IN vinyl, unfortunately...

Oh, yes, my question:

"What happens when the nova gets enough xp to raise a tagged stat to 5?"

Say Kikjak raises his Mega-Str to 5: what good is his Absorb power? Did he just waste the XP in buying Absorb in the first place?

One answer is "No, because Absorb gave him an edge in his early career." Kind of a broken power in that case, if it loses all relevance when a character advances. And yes, that goes for Boost too.

Answer No. 2 is "He shouldn't have raised his M-Str, and relied on his Absorption boost when he needed it." Again, kind of a gimpy power if it limits a character's development to the point where a player doesn't put XP into stats simply because they don't want to make another part of the character's power set obsolete.

Answer No. 3, on the other hand, is "Hell no. This shit is broke as hell. Lets revamp Boost and Absorb a little so they don't become the red-headed stepchildren of the nova world."

My proposal, with an eye to satisfying answer no. 3, is to allow both Boost and Absorb (and Energy Catalyst, by implication) to extend a nova's power beyond normal limits. Examining the effects of allowing a nova to potentially have a power rating of 10...

Okay, say Alex gets his Energy Catalyst up to 5. He also buys Quantum Bolt and Armor up to 5. Leaving out the q-pool aspect (assume for the purposes of this example he has enough).

He absorbs enough energy to raise both Armor and Q-Bolt to 10 temporarily. His soak goes up by 15/15 to a total Armor bonus of 30/30 (or 40/40 if fortified), and his damage dice pool goes from 20 dice to 40 (in addition to the Q x 2 auto levels, which don't change).

Considering the outlay in experience, time and the on-the-spot quantum pool expenditure to get to that level of power, I don't think it overbalanced. Particularly when you consider that the nova who took this route probably doesn't have Invulnerability: Mental and/or Social There's also the naturally Mega-Strong nova who doesn't have to spend X quantum to dish out 25 auto levels per hit, and could have multiple hits in a round.

Just sayin'

[Courier]

Quote:

Say Kikjak raises his Mega-Str to 5: what good is his Absorb power? Did he just waste the XP in buying Absorb in the first place?

Yes and no. He's certainly reduced the marginal effectiveness of some of his powers, but he still has options (a good example might be someone who chooses to purchase both Impervious defenses armor and Hardbody)

First, it still functions as a defense against Aggravated attacks. Aggravated doesn't ignore "defenses", it ignores "soak".

Second, if Kikjak has his M-Str drained then he can still use Absorb to re-pump it.

Third, he can purchase an extra on Absorb, either extra stat or RDQ. RDQ is especially good since it's the only core way to sidestep Ping Damage. Just choose to apply Absorb after soak.

Quote:

Lets revamp Boost and Absorb a little so they don't become the red-headed stepchildren of the nova world.

It's interesting that we don't see many player novas with Boost and Absorb. They're both so point efficient in their own right that you'd think they'd be staples.

The cost of a fifth dot of M-Str is 20 exp. Absorb costs 6 exp and thus counts as a cheep way to get that 5th dot without paying for it. The 4th and 5th dots of M-Str combined cost 35 exp. 2 dots of Absorb cost 11.

Boost on the other hand is even more point efficient. 9 exp lets you boost 2 megas or powers. There's no reason you couldn't drop a willpower point on this and lots of reasons why you should. In theory you could average taking a pair of Mega-2 stats all the way up to Mega-5 for the two rounds of combat that you need it.

Boost gets even more point efficient after Q6+ when you can link it into 3+ stats. For whatever reason, most players don't like rolling dice to see what their stats are... although to be fair since it's once per scene and costs an action it's mostly an offensive power.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

First, it still functions as a defense against Aggravated attacks. Aggravated doesn't ignore "defenses", it ignores "soak".

Big whoop. Really. An enhancement costing 5 XP can do that.

Quote:

Second, if Kikjak has his M-Str drained then he can still use Absorb to re-pump it.

That goes without saying, or should. But it's not supposed to be the primary benefit of the power.

Quote:

Third, he can purchase an extra on Absorb, either extra stat or RDQ. RDQ is especially good since it's the only core way to sidestep Ping Damage. Just choose to apply Absorb after soak.

You can choose to apply Absorb before or after soak anyway if I recall. What's RDQ?

Absorb or Boost can be Disrupted. M-Str cannot be.

A nova can be out of quantum and can still use their M-Str.

I'd go on, but those arguments seem to be hair-splitting and focusing on minutiae rather than examining whether or not the proposed power will break the game.

Asa, I will say something about your third point:

If Absorb (or powers derived from Absorb) didn't have to pay a QP for each and every success they wished to use, then just rolling Quantum & Power Rating would be fair and balanced.

Regardless, the only cap as written on Absorption is that it cannot raise a stat by more dots than the character has in the power. The only actual alteration to the currently existing rules that I'm proposing is that maybe Boost should be given similar leniency as a lvl 2 power.

[Bombshell]

Problem is, if we let Boost raise the cap over the limit, how about Density Increase and Growth, why should they be neglected, shouldn't they be allowed to raise M-Str higher than 5, then? If one of them raises their M-Str, aren't they getting shafted too? There is that one extra for Density Control, Extreme Density, that lets them raise strength to M-Str 6, but that is an Extra making an exception for one specific attribute.

Oh, forgot about Psychic Vampire, can someone with Armor 5 and Psychic Vampire (Armor) keep raising his Armor too?

I think allowing Absorb to raise Attributes/Powers over the cap would result in needing to change too many other powers too. It might also lead to people thinking, should I raise Quantum to 6 so I can buy a sixth dot in something, or just get one of these other powers that let me do it? Why buy Quantum 6 and Quantum Bolt 6 when I can buy Boost 1 (Quantum Bolt) with the Extended Duration Extra for a fraction of the cost instead? So it won't be on all the time, how often have we seen combat last more than 6-10 turns anyway?

I'm not implying you or anyone else is out to abuse the system, I'm just looking at a worst case scenario.

[GDP_ST]

Okay, those are some good points. Let's tackle them in turn.

Originally Posted By: Bombshell

Problem is, if we let Boost raise the cap over the limit, how about Density Increase and Growth, why should they be neglected, shouldn't they be allowed to raise M-Str higher than 5, then? If one of them raises their M-Str, aren't they getting shafted too? There is that one extra for Density Control, Extreme Density, that lets them raise strength to M-Str 6, but that is an Extra making an exception for one specific attribute.

Density Increase...

- Costs 2 QPs to use, or 3 if it has the Extra.

- It gets auto succs, and each succ adds a dot of strength and a dot of soak.

- It's duration is maintainance.

- Even with the Strength cap, there is no soak cap.

So in order for Blokey McSolid to go from Str 5 to M-Str 6 he pays 3 QP, rolls his Quantum, adds auto succs equal to his Power Rating, and gets extra soak as well as huge increase to knockback resistance.

For the GDP to go from Str 5 to M-Str 6... Well, first he'd have to have Energy Catalyst 6. That would mean Q6. So lets take him from M-Str 2 to 7 instead. He needs to roll his Stam + Mega-Stam + Power Rating and get 10 successes (that's reasonably easy-to-middling in difficulty) Then pay 10 Quantum. Ouch. Then he gets 5 extra dots of M-Strength for 10 rnds. For 30 seconds he is capable of massive feats of strength. 2 and a half mins later he's run out of all his borrowed power.

Originally Posted By: Bombshell

Oh, forgot about Psychic Vampire, can someone with Armor 5 and Psychic Vampire (Armor) keep raising his Armor too?

(I am assuming that you mean Quantum Vampire not Psychic Vampire, btw.)

Now I can see the problem when a nova with M-Str 5 boosts themselves by a further 5 by whatever means. So here's an amendment:

As a limit on how high the boosted stat can climb, how about capping it at (Power Rating / 2) over the nova's normal upper limit, rounding down. Example: A nova with Q5 and Energy Cat. 5 could boost herself no further than 7 even if the stat they were boosting was already at 5. It allows for impressive displays of power, but balances things out effectively. Of course, the higher the nova's Quantum rating goes, the higher than limit climbs. But that's the same for all powers after Q5.

Originally Posted By: Bombshell

I think allowing Absorb to raise Attributes/Powers over the cap would result in needing to change too many other powers too. It might also lead to people thinking, should I raise Quantum to 6 so I can buy a sixth dot in something, or just get one of these other powers that let me do it? Why buy Quantum 6 and Quantum Bolt 6 when I can buy Boost 1 (Quantum Bolt) with the Extended Duration Extra for a fraction of the cost instead? So it won't be on all the time, how often have we seen combat last more than 6-10 turns anyway?

Raising Q to 6 has it's own rewards, such as being able to purchase more Extras or even Mastery. And in your example of Boost and Q-Bolt, Boost 1 would only yield a limited return. A nova with Q4 and Boost 1, for instance, would only be rolling 5 dice to raise their power. Quantum Bolt 4+ allows the nova to learn special Firearms techniques for use in combat. A higher Quantum rating would allow for more damage auto-successes.

And as for claiming that combat rarely lasts more than 6-10 turns, this may be true. But the end of a combat encounter is not necessarily the end of the scene, particularly in a running battle scene, or Elite warfare. The drawbacks of going cheap to exploit the system by using Boost 1 will quickly and painfully become apparent in such circumstances.

In the end, its the same amount of drawback. Energy Catalyst uses huge amounts of power; Boost is limited to one use per scene and has less dice. If my cap proposal above is taken into account, it should balance out the powers without neutering them for more powerful characters.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

Big whoop. Really. An enhancement costing 5 XP can do that....
...But it's not supposed to be the primary benefit of the power.

This is saying that after you've spent 79 points of experience raising a mega to 5, you get significantly less utility from a 6 exp power. Admittedly this is true, but it does raise the issue of why you've done this to yourself in the first place. This is especially true when you could slap another three exp on the power and negate ping damage.

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

Quote:

Third, he can purchase an extra on Absorb, either extra stat or RDQ. RDQ is especially good since it's the only core way to sidestep Ping Damage. Just choose to apply Absorb after soak.

You can choose to apply Absorb before or after soak anyway if I recall. What's RDQ?

Reduced Quantum Cost.

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

Absorb or Boost can be Disrupted. M-Str cannot be. A nova can be out of quantum and can still use their M-Str. I'd go on, but those arguments seem to be hair-splitting and focusing on minutiae rather than examining whether or not the proposed power will break the game.

This single power potentially raises 6 Attributes from baseline-5 to mega-5. That it can be disrupted doesn't change that normally it won't be. Granted, you'd need to pay 30q to do this, but Q-Leech and Node 3+ can deal with that issue pretty handily.

[GDP_ST]

Originally Posted By: Courier

This single power potentially raises 6 Attributes from baseline-5 to mega-5. That it can be disrupted doesn't change that normally it won't be. Granted, you'd need to pay 30q to do this, but Q-Leech and Node 3+ can deal with that issue pretty handily.

60 quantum pool. 60 levels of damage need to be Absorbed in order to provide 30 dots of boost.

And you're partially right, having a large Node (along with the Taint) and Q-Leech (which needs yet more, opposed rolling) would help with the cost. 'Deal with it pretty handily' suggests a walk in the park for little or no cost.

This is a Level 3 power. To buy it to 5 costs 79 XP. Then you need to buy the Quantum rating of 5. You don't have to have a highly developed Node, but it would help Absorb and redirect a lot of damage very quickly. So if you get Node 5, there's the cost plus 3 Permanent Taint to factor in, plus the 1 from Q5.

Then you want to buy Q-leech so you can tap enemies quantum. Buy that up to 5, and throw in the Siphon extra. Another 79 XP which will let you tap 10 qp from someone per successful roll.

Compare that with buying Mega-Str up to 5. You need Q4, Str 5, and 56XP. Throw in four extra enhancements of your choice and you're up to 76 XP. It doesn't compare, cost wise. And then in play, the QP cost doesn't even come close either.

Quote:

This is saying that after you've spent 79 (56, I think you'll find - GDP) points of experience raising a mega to 5, you get significantly less utility from a 6 exp power. Admittedly this is true, but it does raise the issue of why you've done this to yourself in the first place. This is especially true when you could slap another three exp on the power and negate ping damage.

"Why you've done this to yourself"? Sheesh. How dare I try to get value for my XP. After all, those that buy Armor, then Invulnerability, then Mega-Stamina 5, then add a Forcefield aren't going to be able to stack all... that... soak... Oh wait...

Think about that for a bit.

Oh, and anyone trying to slap Reduced Quantum Cost on a power like Absorb IS trying to exploit the game mechanics. And badly at that. Doing this simply to negate 'ping' damage for free is not the point of the power. As an ST, I would hit that mechanic with the NO! stamp.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

60 quantum pool. 60 levels of damage need to be Absorbed in order to provide 30 dots of boost.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

And you're partially right, having a large Node (along with the Taint) and Q-Leech (which needs yet more, opposed rolling) would help with the cost. 'Deal with it pretty handily' suggests a walk in the park for little or no cost.

Also fair... but the point remains that this power allows some pretty harsh combos (especially with Clone and Warp (which you don't need to even have)). I.e. you know you're going to be attacking someone, so you blow, and then quickly recover, a very large amount of juice on pumping up your stats. Pick 4 of Str/Stam/Dex/Armor/HealthLevels

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

This is a Level 3 power. To buy it to 5 costs 79 XP....

At 5 dots you're slapping down 79exp but getting 56x6 (336) after a careful set up. More realistically we could/should look at what happens with 2 or 3 dots... but the return on investment is much higher. This is a cheap way to briefly get the last 2-3 dots on 3-4 megas/powers.

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

Then you want to buy Q-leech so you can tap enemies quantum. Buy that up to 5, and throw in the Siphon extra. Another 79 XP which will let you tap 10 qp from someone per successful roll.

Or you could buy one dot in Q-Leech(perhaps with RQC) and 1-5 dots in allies (One with a huge pool would do it).

But the larger question is whether it's balanced in the game... and the answer is I'm not sure. If I were ST I might let a player have this (even though it's Boost equiv would need Q6+) just because in an ST run game the players are normally reacting and thus this power's "charge it up" potential would be largely moot.

[GDP_ST]

Okay, I want to start wrapping this discussion up and get the power into beta testing.

Do any 200X players have any objection to the power as written above being provisionally put into play. If it proves to be grossly unbalancing, it gets nixed and goes back to the drawing board, and/or the XP gets reassigned.

Due to the narrative-over-roll-playing focus of 200X, I don't think it'll be an issue either way if that happens. But I'd like the power to be at least given a fair field-trial.

[Evo]

It does scare me. I suppose, but PROVISIONALLY it can come in.

[Bombshell]

I've been thinking about this power all day at work. It's very versatile - at rank 5, it's like six level 2 and 3 powers at 5 dots (and possibly higher) for the price of one level 3 power, yes, with caveats, but still - and I believe some combinations of powers could end up disgusting and/or abusive.

That said, I'm still willing to give it a trial run, with one addendum...

It doesn't break the normal cap on ranks. Otherwise, we'll have to look at other boosting powers to keep them level. Proposing a new power is one thing, adding a house rule or a change to the system is another.

Besides, just because someone has native dots in a boostable power and can't max it beyond five, extra successes aren't wasted. He has another one to five powers to boost.

[GDP_ST]

So let's make it a field trial of the increased cap as well:

Powers that provide temporary boosts to stats can go beyond the nova's normal cap by up to half their rank, rounding down. It's worked in our TT games, I'd like to see if it'll work for people here.

We can make adjustments as needed during play, the whole point is to make the changes provisional on their not breaking the game.

Otherwise I consider this a waste of XP. To establish my position:

I am not going to invest points and time into a power or effect that comes with built-in obsolescence. With rare exceptions, the only stats that I would tag with a power like Boost, Absorb or Energy Catalyst I would consider 'essential' to the central theme of the character. These stats will be raised over time by XP. I won't waste XP on an ability that a character will outgrow.

I can't think of a single other power-set in the entire system that dwindles in usefulness the more powerful the nova gets. (No, I'm not talking relative, I'm talking absolute). Psychic Shield doesn't lose any of it's auto-succ defenses just because someone raises their WP to 10 and gets Invuln: Mental as well. My example above of Armor + Invulnerability + Forcefield falls into the same category.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Alex Andrews

I can't think of a single other power-set in the entire system that dwindles in usefulness the more powerful the nova gets...

There's a few but it is rare.

Hardbody (replaced by Imperv). Intuition (replaced by Mega-Perception). The strength enhancers (as you pointed out). The various power-mimic powers (Shapeshift/Q-Imprint/Matter-Chameleon), buying a power outright means the ability to mimic it gets less useful. Elemental-Anima (replaced by Elemental-Mastery).

[Bombshell]

Yes, but, Energy Catalyst isn't really analogous to Armor + Invulnerability + Forcefield, it's more like Armor + Armor, M-Strenght + M-Strength, or Q-Bolt + Q-bolt, with their effects stacking. Even say you get all the powers the Energy Catalyst can affect to 3, being able to boost them them that other two dots (and not needing so much juice and possible time to max them out) is still quite good. I might be willing to let someone who has a boost power affecting a power already rated at 5 dots go to 6.

It's your choice to have certain powers at moderate levels, then having a power boosting them further. I don't recall what the 200x bible says about Q6, but if you want 6+ dots in a power, that might be an option.

I had an idea for a character once that touches on your concern. Started off with Strength 5, and Boost Strength. I wanted to buy up M-Strength, as her body adjusted to the influx, making the Boost more and more unnecessary. I began to wonder if the DM/Mod/God would let me buy off Boost and convert the XP spent on it to raise M-Str, one lowering as the other rose. I thought that was reasonable, and it would be... if everything was bought up with XP. You would still have the same amount.

Only problem is, with Nova Points thrown into the mix, this mechanic could be the subject of abuse, since the number of Nova Points needed to raise a power is absolute and doesn't depend on the current rank, unlike XP. Someone could buy a power up to 5 dots, then come up with a justifiable reason to convert that 5th dot into a fair bit of XP, a lot more than if he converted the first dot of something.

But I would be willing to try to hammer something out.

[GDP_ST]

Bombshell -

The only limit to Absorb in the rules as written is that boosted stats cannot be raised by more dots than the nova has in the power. I'm willing to write-in the cap I've suggested in the interests of closing a loophole and bringing the power in line with other level 3 effects.

End of discussion on the cap side of things as far as I'm concerned. If that's your condition for a field test, then I'll mark you down as a 'no'-vote.

[z017]

Okay, I'm gonna throw my .5 cents in. I'm not much of a rules authority, but I do think creativity should be given a chance to prove itself. Carver is setting up the next event, why don't we test the power out there, as there should be a fair amount of combat in the thread to really get a look at how the power functions. If it looks too broken from what we see, it'll get nixed for play and the xp reassigned. If it seems balanced, it can stay and if others wish to look at similar powers to be moved into line with this one, we can open another discussion thread and use this power as a baseline for adjustments.

Does that sound acceptable?

[GDP_ST]

That's fine by me, and all I ask.

3 to 1 in favor of a trial run so far. Anyone else?