Aberrant RPG - This Amazing Product

[Fugitive Unknown]

Hey all, just picked up Abberant and a schlock of other aberant stuff (nonD20) and now I'm interested in discussion, not to mention playing this fine game if I can find time.

I thought I'd ask a few questions though... in particular regarding the rules.

1) Does EUfiber go pop like other armor when the character takes a hit higher then twice the armor's soak rating?

2) Can you raise a super stat above quantum temporarily using boost / increase size / increase density?

3) Regarding weaknesses / strengths for power.

Is it just me or are these rules totally out of whack?!? I mean, I know an ST doesn't need to include them but still.. they just seem rather..

efficent compared to extras.

4) Is it just me or does super strength seem a wee bit too effective?

And regarding the world.... at least the WW cannon world of Abberant...

1) Does anyone know which members of TTM/Utopia/Proteus are pre Galatea novas? I mean, I know Pax, but that's about it.

2) Did they ever say what REALLY happened to the abberants in the Trinity age? I know they went into deep space, but does the game discuss what actually HAPPENED to them? Are there any still on earth? (just insatiably curious)

[kestrel404]

1) No. It's bought as a background, and making it disappear is generally a plot thing, not a mechanics thing.

2) One special on density increase (from the APG, I think) allows you to get mega-strength 6. Everything else is capped at 5 for all cases and powers, until you hit Quantum 6. (This has been discussed in depth fairly recently here: http://www.nprime.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/2/t/000456.html )

3) Yes, the system is broken. Not horribly, but enough. This has been discussed ad-nauseum in previous threads.

4) Yup. Also been covered by previous threads.

Worldly matters

1) I'm not too sure about Pax. A few members of the Aeon society, and Divis Mal are definitely pre-G novas.

2) Divis Mal took his buddies and left the universe. Everybody else is dead or mutated beyond recognition.

Read some of the archives on this sight. It'll answer most of the questions you haven't asked yet.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

As far as I can tell, Mal is the only pre-Galatea Nova that is mentioned for certain in any book. The Utopia book has plenty of rumors and stuff, but no names are mentioned.

On that front, Pax is not Pre-Galatea. Mr. Shelby Eisenfaust was one of the earliest post-Galatea eruptees, but not before.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Pre N-Day Novas:

Divis

Mercer, although it's unclear exactly what he is (he might be both a nova and a psion or equally odd).

Divis' boyfriend (name?) probably is.

Some of the historic gods might have been.

[Alex Craft]

"Divis' boyfriend (name?) probably is."

Scripture

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

Mercer is a unique case. There isn't anyone like him in any of the books, as far as I know.

[Alex Craft]

I think the general understanding is that Mercer is that lone example of the third class of superhuman (can't recall the name) mentioned in his letter to Project Pandora (in the APG).

[Tarot]

Paramorph.

[Singularity]

Paramorphs are also known as Daredevils in Adventure! While during the Adventure! time peroid the Inspired couldn't figure out that paramorphs were actually affecting the world (albeit subconsciously), scientists figure it out after they start popping up again in Trinity.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

None of the three classes in A! seem to describe Max. He has Time Control and/or Time Travel

Proto-Novas would have the power but they claim he isn't one.

Proto-Psions/Psiads don't seem to have the power and they claim he isn't one.

The third group *really* doesn't have the power.

Eon has examples of all three groups. If anyone could give him a catagory it should be them. If we even knew what he was manipulating (Psi or Q) it would be a start.

[Alex Craft]

Daredevils don't actually have any 'powers.' Their Knacks and Inspiration only reflect extraordinary luck and skill. The Adventure! book's description of Heroic Knacks actually makes a point of mentioning that.

Also, p55 of the APG pretty strongly suggests that paramorphs are changed in 'temporal stability' from the human norm - a description which fits Mercer to a T.

I suspect that Mercer doesn't manipulate quantum or psi, and does something else altogether. It seems that he wouldn't have been identified as something unique by Aeon if that weren't the case. Maybe he just got 'unstuck' in time by the Hammersmith explosion (someone at WW reading a little too much Vonnegut, maybe?).

[Singularity]

Alex, Troll, check out the last release for Trinity on the web, the one that has Process 214 or something like that in it. In there they clearly lay out that paramorphs are manipulating "something" and I believe they are called paramorphs in the document. Also bear in mind that the word "paramorph" only means something has changed without totally changing (or something like that, I'm rusty on my Latin roots).

Anyways, I'm of the mind that: 1. Max doesn't fit into any category (and I agree regarding the Slaughterhouse Five reference); and 2. daredevils/paramorphs are "true" evolution for humanity, whereas the novas and psiads/psions are offshoots. But that's just my nutty theory.

[Alex Craft]

You'd be referring to Asia Ascendant? Actually, now that you point it out, they do say that - which is interesting, since it directly contradicts the reference to paramorphs in the APG. I suppose it could be just a catch-all term for 'funny things which aren't novas or psychics,' though.

[Tarot]

Here's a thought for the discussion.

Donighal is an eximorph (Stalwart or Nova doesn't matter) and in the Hammersmith explosion he jumps in evolution. If Stalwart he becomes nova, if nova then to an advanced nova and the rules are changed for him. Kind of works well with explaining some of his mistakes and blindspots.

Mercer is a paramorph and in the Hammersmith he jumps to whatever lies further down that road. Since he's the ultimate paramorph its pretty obvious he's different because he can do something obvious but in all other ways he's a normal guy. For a while AEON says there is only one known paramorph becauser Mercer is different and there are no "telltales" for daredevils / paramorphs at lower levels except in how they constantly get "lucky". You can identify someone that is probably a paramorph but it takes time and you can be proven wrong when your subject's luck finally runs out.

How do paramorphs do what they do (including Mercer)? Not clue but... Personal theory is they're able to subconsciously manipulate the boundary of quantum/noetic instead of one or the other. Lacks the raw power of the nova and the finesse of the psiad but they seem to get the job done.

[Ashnod]

Well, of all the Hammersmith observers, only Donighal seems to have been anything more than human before the event itself. There's no mention, or as far as I read into it, hints, that anyone else was something else before it happened.

[Tarot]

... and that's the hallmark of the daredevils. I'm joking. Kind of.

Hammersmith shot through time as well as space. Before the explosion is one thing but afterwards there are secret cities that have existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. Dinosaurs are roaming the Louisianna swaps and a T-Rex doesn't grow to maturity in a couple of weekends. There are vampires in Transylvania and I do not want to even think about that one.

Hammersmith remade reality. Not only what is but also in such a way that it had always been.

Weird stuff. Very weird stuff.

[Blue Cherry]

I have always read into it, after Hammersmith, the three groups started to show up. They at the start were not polarized then,at least to the point they later become.

So stalwarts, wile the precursors to novas, still used a bit of sub quantum. And the same for mentalists. But as time went by and Mal's power grew, he put so much quantum out that more and more people who could become one of the three groups became quantum users.

Note, like say a magnet, you can have them that are both possative and negative.But if you have one that is one curtain you get more power. Also note that you do not naturely get soully possitve or negative magnets in nature, you have to make them.

And even if I am wrong on thise threory about magnet, I think it is true of the three groups. Novas, are damned to become alien,to live alone, and be so defrent from everything that they can't propwer react to mater. Psions are on the other damned to be drawn into everything and will be unable to pull themselves from the univires at all.

Now, let's get into some little details. In 2020, are there dare-devils? Yes, but I would wager that there were more in 1950, as Mal was not the "quantum lighting rod" yet. I would also point out there would be psions in 2020..Just very few.Further more if you removed the really big power players in the trinity or aberrant time line you would see all three groups in more equal numbers, as opposed to mainly one of either side.

[Tarot]

Interesting ideas but there's a couple of shortcomings;

1. Jack Talon and the Gunman have been around since long before Hammersmith doing what they do and neither of them were present at the demonstration.

2. The gene that controls the ability to manipulate quantum and noetic energies is the same gene. Under ideal circumstances its a 50/50 propostion whether you'll be a psiad or a nova but the presence of Divas Mal influences the outcome and more become novas than psiads. This stops once Divas Mal leaves the planet.

Mal doesn't have this effect on Daredevils because;

3. In whatever way Daredevils are unusual, its not genetic or biological. They have a very special relationship with luck and time that's not fully understood. Because they are so very "normal" its virtually impossible to be 100% certain within the game whether someone is a daredevil or not. We're talking about fortune favoring an individual on an astoundingly consistent level. There's no way to quantify that.

They are the wild cards.

4. The number of "unusual" people in the population is usually very low without outside manipulation. Hammersmith inadvertently kicked off a huge and uncontrolled Z-wave that caused a spike. Near the end of WWII AEON directly opposed Dr Primoris aka Mal and I think there was a spike again as well as later in the '70s.

Finally in 1998 Mal, after decades of experimentation and using hyperevolved intellect, initiated another Hammersmith event which AEON failed to stop. This was deliberately designed to create novas. Its unknown whether the long duration of the Nova Boom was part of his design or if he ocassionally refreshed the effect to keep it continuing. In any case; once he left the planet the eruptions fell off and the natural balance between psiads and novas was reestablished at some point.

There does seem to be a tendency towards taint among those that do erupt but that may be due to the residual taint radiations or an after effect of Mal's influence.

All things being equal; eximorphs, psychomorphs and paramorphs probably do exist in equal numbers naturally since none of them have a distinct evolutionary advantage over the other. The paramorphs (Daredevils) are just harder to pick out.

Food for thought:

Why aren't there more psiads in the Trinity age? Because Proteus screwed up the gene pool by sterilizing anyone they found that had the gene, i.e. those that erupted into novas.

You got to love short sightedness coming back to bite you in the ass.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Tarot: Mercer is a paramorph and in the Hammersmith he jumps to whatever lies further down that road. Since he's the ultimate paramorph its pretty obvious he's different because he can do something obvious but in all other ways he's a normal guy. For a while AEON says there is only one known paramorph becauser Mercer is different and there are no "telltales" for daredevils / paramorphs at lower levels except in how they constantly get "lucky".

So all Daredevils (of which Aeon has seen many) are paramorphs? Time travel and time control are thus advanced (subtle) powers for Daredevils? Why does this seem wrong?

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Ashnod: Well, of all the Hammersmith observers, only Donighal seems to have been anything more than human before the event itself. There's no mention, or as far as I read into it, hints, that anyone else was something else before it happened.

Correction: For all the surviving observers that is true.

The Hammersmith device itself seems very much like a “gadget” to me. Such “super-science” gadgets are a staple of the time, but somehow they don’t seem to work for any but their creator. Although he didn’t survive the experiement (another staple of super-science devices) the implication is Hammersmith might have been something special himself.

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Blue Cherry: ...as time went by and Mal's power grew, he put so much quantum out that more and more people who could become one of the three groups became quantum users...

It wasn’t accidental. Mal delibrately made things so quantum users (and not psi users) would be created.

There was a lot of discussion on WW’s web site about whether he created Hammersmith’s effect with powers or with a gadget. Then one of the developers pop’ed in and called it an effort of will (sounded like a powermax on Q-Supreme to me).

We know from Trinity that psi and quantum users come from the same stock before they erupt. I.e. pre-novas can erupt as a psi user or a quantum user, and after that they are stuck with it.

Whether the third catagory is a member of one or both of those is at best unclear.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
So all Daredevils (of which Aeon has seen many) are paramorphs? Time travel and time control are thus advanced (subtle) powers for Daredevils? Why does this seem wrong?

I dunno. Why does it seem wrong to you?

I think of Mercer as being the only paramorph far enough down the road that he can exercise conscious control over a trait that's possible if not common to paramorphs. And even then it took decades to master and has many limitations.

Bonus point:
Q: How do you know someone is a paramorph?
A: They keep not dying no matter how hard you try.

Seems like a pretty rigorous testing procedure to me.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

It seems wrong because DD powers are subtle and not flashy.

Time Travel is flashy and not subtle.

It's like saying that Matter Chamleon or Elemental Mastery are advanced DD powers that come from their advanced luck.

[Tarot]

Time travel the way Mercer's abilities are described just doesn't seem flashy. Or even that useful considering all the really nasty things that are going to happen despite him being able to "look ahead". Slowing someone down or speeding up your personal time is a lot more impressive.

If he's not a paramorph, or Daredevils aren't, that means there's a fourth type of special person running around.

[Count Janos Rakozi]

Stalwart=Eximorph=Nova

Mesmerist=Psychomorphs=Psiads (or, through the Prometheus Chambers) Psions

Paramorphs=(?)Daredevils

In the Adventure Book, they pretty much state that Maxwell Mercer and Divis Mal/Dr. Primoris/Donighal are unique.

Mal is as above Stalwarts as Stalwarts are above normal men.

Mercer is ... they don't say.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Count Janos Rakozi:
Mal is as above Stalwarts as Stalwarts are above normal men.

Yeah. Nova.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

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Tarot:... Or even that useful considering all the really nasty things that are going to happen despite him being able to "look ahead".

The guy built Utopia, Eon, and could effortlessly build fortunes. He is tied with Mal for most influencal person on the Golden age.

I wouldn't call his powers ineffectual or useless. Sometimes you run into something where your powers fail to help. In Mercers case that situation turned up when he tried to reshape time on a world wide level and oppose both human nature and a Q8 buffed up insane nova.

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Tarot:...Slowing someone down or speeding up your personal time is a lot more impressive.

A trick I think he could also do. We have a description of Mercer in combat in A!.

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Tarot: Time travel the way Mercer's abilities are described just doesn't seem flashy.

Considering it happens off camera I don't see how we can say that. For that matter, I don't see how we can say it in any case.

Nothing about Max says "subtle powers". Nothing about Daredevils says "time control". I see no reason for a relationship between Max's powers and DD's.

[Alex Craft]

Adventure! says that Max can slow/accelerate time, pause time, and perform other feats. It further says that given a few decades of time, he could do pretty much any kind of time-twisting imaginable (so by the Aberrant and Trinity eras, he is very flashy - right up there with the Q6/Q7 novas, unless I miss my guess).

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
The guy built Utopia, Eon, and could effortlessly build fortunes. He is tied with Mal for most influencal person on the Golden age.

And his baby, the AEON Society, empowered a campaign of subjugation and genocide against an entire species so they could reap the benefits of quantum while avoiding being supplanted by Homo Sapien Novus.

Say it again for retention; genocide.

You seem to get off on characterizing Mal as a nutcase but Mal is not Mercer's biggest problem. Its the ramifications of a bunch of baselines running a charity organization while condoning murder on the small scale and genocide on the large scale using the resources he gave and continues to give to them that's his his biggest problem.

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Dr Troll:A trick I think he could also do.

I know. That was what I was refering to. I find that to be flashy but not the "becoming unstuck in time" part.

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Dr Troll: Considering it happens off camera I don't see how we can say that. For that matter, I don't see how we can say it in any case.

Because Maxwell Mercer the Great Time Traveling Philanthopist is doing his part to bring about the aberrant war. Road to hell and all that. No doubt its going to pay massive dividents in the future but exactly how much is that going to matter to those who don't get to skip ahead in time?

You're arguing style, I'm noting effect. Its a nothing ability that costs more than it brings to the table. A man with the ability to skip through time finds himself balked by someone you describe as a looney tune and you want me to respect Mercer's "great power of time control"? Mercer is ineffective on anything but the grand sweeping epic scale and that partly because of how his power works.

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Dr Troll:Nothing about Max says "subtle powers".

I don't think that's true. He meditates to stay centered, splits a desk top by striking the grain of the wood with a martials arts blow and throws knives.

What makes him all that different from Danger Ace?

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Dr Troll:Nothing about Daredevils says "time control". I see no reason for a relationship between Max's powers and DD's.

And are you sure you want to take that view in a game that allows dramatic editing?


Daredevils are manipulating something at a subconscious level. People don't fall out of fifteen burning airplanes last week and survive. They don't fall off buildings and "accidentally" live through it. You can call it luck if you want but that's begging the question not answering it. I find it easy enough to believe that whatever they're manipulatng could allow the most advanced of the species to become unstuck in time or move as fast as he needs to.

Added Note:

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Craft:
It further says that given a few decades of time, he could do pretty much any kind of time-twisting imaginable (so by the Aberrant and Trinity eras, he is very flashy - right up there with the Q6/Q7 novas, unless I miss my guess).

Two points here guys...

1. After fifty+ years of practicing anything I'd certainly hope you got pretty good at it.

2. I find the idea of a plane crashing in a huge fireball and a man slipping out the wreakage ten minutes later pretty impressive. Is it flashy? Not once he explains the crash knocked loose a grating to the water tank below the run way which cushioned his fall and allowed him to survive the conflageration whereupon he spent the last ten minutes climbing up out of the tank. Not flashy but pretty impressive. When he does it three times in a row I am flabergasted and don't care how you two define "flash".

I get that you want to call Mercer a nova and gush on about his great temporal abilities but he really doesn't seem to get that much done with them. Which indcates to me he doesn't have the carte blanch with power that novas do.

:shrug: Mileage will vary.

[April Rice]

I don't want to call Max a nova (since he isn't), but his description even at the Adventure puts him well up with the Q5 novas in terms of sheer power (and that's after a year or so of practice). I tend to assume that he does have at least as much free use of power as novas - maybe more, since there's nothing to indicate that he can accrue a Taint-analogue.

However, as Doc alluded, I suspect that he simply doesn't have any particular tendency to go toe-to-toe with his enemies, either. He can (and does) get away with this in the Adventure age, when he's pretty much the baddest thing around (with the possible exception of Donnigal), but later on he has to play in the same arena as a planet full of novas.

Max does pull the daredevil-esque 'hitting the grain of the wood' and such, but he (and at least a few other people, like Safari Jack and Scalper Dutch) were like that long before Hammersmith. You could take this as them being daredevils from square one, or you could take it as them just having the mad skills. It's up for grabs.

Likewise, he does have the Dramatic Editing thing going for him, but so does everybody - daredevil, stalwart, and mesmerist alike. And then again, if you pull out a copy of Aberrant d20 (and maybe Trin d20 - I haven't checked) there are Dramatic Editing rules there, as well. Max being able to Edit doesn't narrow the field at all.

[Tarot]

I like the way you phrase that April. Regarding;

... he (and at least a few other people, like Safari Jack and Scalper Dutch) were like that long before Hammersmith.

Yeah, that was my point earlier and the crux of the theory that Mercer was a daredevil before and after being ground zero became something a little more advanced.

Of course with the Z-rays going through time as well as space that gets into a real chicken or the egg question.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Tarot:...the AEON Society, empowered a campaign of subjugation and genocide against an entire species so they could reap the benefits of quantum while avoiding being supplanted by Homo Sapien Novus. ... a bunch of baselines running a charity organization while condoning murder on the small scale and genocide on the large scale using the resources he gave and continues to give to them that's his biggest problem.

That's an extreme view that assumes every bad thing the Teragen thinks about Aeon is true and nothing good Aeon thinks about itself is.

Project Proteus had nova members and I can't remember anything about any of it's most extreme members plotting genocide. Contrast that with segments of the Teragen which openly want genocide and don't allow baseline members.

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Tarot:You seem to get off on characterizing Mal as a nutcase but Mal is not Mercer's biggest problem. ...

It could be argued that without the Teragen and Mal's influence that things wouldn't have fallen apart. That novas would have found a place in society and the war would have been avoided.

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Tarot:You're arguing style, I'm noting effect....

So if a nova with Elemental Mastery: Anti-Matter and Disintegration loses a fight with Troll because Troll is immune to Aggravated attacks, we should then conclude Anti-Matter Mastery is both a subtle and useless power?

Max has enough power to oppose Divis, and to attempt to re-write the future.

Yeah, he lost. But just being able to sit down at the game and be a player counts for something.

[Ashnod]

The Teragen existed without Mal, though. Caroline Fong, Raoul Orzaiz, Pedro Santiago, and Marcel Delormier founded the basis of it long before Mal approached them.

If it wasn't those four, it might have been Allison Hughes, James Booth, Natalya Dornova, etc. The feelings that the Teragen have aren't unique to them.

SOMEONE would have come along at some point with similar sentiments. Mal's presence makes things larger, more exacerbated, but it's far from the end and the sum of it.

[Tarot]

Troll give me a break and use restraint in playing the Teragen sympathiser card.

Just to be clear; Mal's a pain in the ass and little more. I realize that doesn't bode well for your argument on the subject and is sure to annoy the heck out of the "Mal is god" crew but that's the bottom line. He... doesn't... do... jack. We could argue why until the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact that in his entire life and with virtually unlimited power he will do only four things of interest:

- Initiate the nova boom because he's lonely.

- High jack the airwaves to make "Teragen" a house hold word because he's lonely.

- Pop open Bahrain as an excuse to make a pass at Pax because he's lonely.

- Fry the head of the UN before heading into the inky blackness of space; reason unclear, ask again later.

No, that's not assuming that everything the Teragen thinks is true is in fact true. That's AEON authorizing the Thetis Proposal and giving her the power to act on it which tacitly condones her narrow view of the most common base denominator of humanity. She told Langrione about murdering Slider, do you really think she didn't tell the AEON council? Come on man! If she didn't tell them then Langrione was going to tell them. I can't say whether they knew in advance or not but does it really matter when they left her in power? And yeah the word is genocide. That's what we call it when you sterilize everyone that erupts so you can "manage their population" and murder any inconvenient novas along the way.

The AEON that did this has lost faith, Mercer couldn't stop it, is working to salvage what he can and not doing all that well as evidenced by the fact that Thetis is still running around loose. If Mercer locked up people in AEON mental wards for doing less than what Thetis has done so I'm pretty sure that if he could get to her then he would.

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Dr Troll:It could be argued that without the Teragen and Mal's influence that things wouldn't have fallen apart. That novas would have found a place in society and the war would have been avoided.

It could also be argued that without Utopia and Proteus acting as the screen to keep the fecal matter from hitting the fan that homo sapien novus would be well on its way to supplanting a disheartened humanity and give rise to a race of gods living in paradise. So?

I prefer the more moderate view personally. That they're both committed to tragically flawed paths and will eventually decimate each other to the point where neither is a danger to the races of humanity.

Quote:

So if a nova with Elemental Mastery: Anti-Matter and Disintegration loses a fight with Troll because Troll is immune to Aggravated attacks, we should then conclude Anti-Matter Mastery is both a subtle and useless power?

No, we should conclude the guy is an idiot and should have just dropped Troll to the center of the earth if he was that bad assed. Either that or he was the warm up (cannon fodder) for the main event wherein the next opponent decides to cut the gravity underneath Troll and watches gleefully as the Green Machine launches himself into orbit with his first step.

So yeah, pretty much useless especially if you've had 70 years to hone your abilities, examine your opponents weaknesses and to plan yet still end up being ineffective.

I too can create scenarios where the most trivial power in the world is actually the one thing that can save the human race! while greater abilities are useless. Its a minor talent and comes from watching too many after school specials.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

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Ashnod: The Teragen existed without Mal, though. Caroline Fong, Raoul Orzaiz, Pedro Santiago, and Marcel Delormier founded the basis of it long before Mal approached them. ... SOMEONE would have come along at some point with similar sentiments. Mal's presence makes things larger, more exacerbated, but it's far from the end and the sum of it.

It's a question of scale.

Without Mal, the Teragen doesn't get to announce the manifesto on all stations over the entire world, so basically the message doesn't go out. Many novas that did join the Teragen instead join other groups.

Without Mal, Pax is the number one nova on the planet and the parts of the Teragen that need to be put down forcefully can be put down forcefully.

Without Mal, Chrysalis isn't found any time soon. The very tainted novas go nuts and/or are put down, and serve as an example to the others. There is no (or at least less) "Taint is good" crowd leading the way into oblivion and Taint remains a disease to be feared. Without Chrysalis the Teragen novas don't have that recruitment edge, and they don't have "power upped" novas.

[Ashnod]

You're assuming far too much.

It could also be without Mal, that the Teragen isn't noticed as soon. That is grows slowly, but it isn't a violent or outwardly radical in its natal stages. That the first the world hears of it on a large scale isn't until 2020, at which time it's actually bigger and structured far differently than Mal's "Pantheon" style. At that point, the world of Novas has caught up to Caestus Pax, and he's no longer the biggest kid on the block.

That they aren't as fractitious in 2030 when things start going south, and win the Aberrant War in 2035.

There is all kinds of "what if" you can play with this. With Cross-Time travel, every single "what if" becomes a possible world that is no less factual than the "canon" world. You can't say without Mal things would have happened THIS way, because they could happen ANY number of possible ways.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Meaning that without the Teragen to play bad guy, whoever or whatever fills that roll is worse. That's a good point.

Having said that, I think the odds would have been better without him (ignoring that without him there would have been no N-Day and no surge in novas).

You can play Russian Rollette with one bullet in the gun or five, and either way the possible results are the same, but one way skews the odds.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
The guy built Utopia, Eon, and could effortlessly build fortunes. He is tied with Mal for most influencal person on the Golden age.

And his baby, the AEON Society, empowered a campaign of subjugation and genocide against an entire species so they could reap the benefits of quantum while avoiding being supplanted by Homo Sapien Novus.

Say it again for retention; genocide.

Subjugation, perhaps, but the genocide bit? Not only patently false, but makes no sense whatsoever. Proteus's sterilisation never worked (babies were still popping up), and when it was exposed, someone would come up with a cure, and Proteus did that on their own, so far as we can tell. They were killing off more than a few tainted individuals, but note that Utopia kinda needs novas. They have nothing to gain from wiping them from the face of the planet. Now, when the Aberrant War came around, they have something to gain (or more correctly, they have everything to lose), but by that point, Utopia was already dismantled, so far as I can tell.

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You seem to get off on characterizing Mal as a nutcase but Mal is not Mercer's biggest problem. Its the ramifications of a bunch of baselines running a charity organization while condoning murder on the small scale and genocide on the large scale using the resources he gave and continues to give to them that's his his biggest problem.

Continues to give them is a matter for contention. Max Mercer disappeared in 1950. Project Utopia begins in 2001 proper, and according to Aberrant d20, Mercer reappears into public life and starts becoming fully active in early 2008. There's mention, of course in the APG that Mercer arrives back in 1998, but there is also mention there that seems to indicate that Mercer is invalid, or at least ineffectual, and since Aberrant d20 makes such an attempt to get away from this, I feel confident in discarding that information, so this is as clear a date as we're ever going to get. Alternatively, yes, Mercer came in 1998, took a decade to get a grasp of what was going on, then started doing something about it in early 2008.

From the 1950s onwards, we can assume that Michael Maxwell Mercer, Mercer's son, takes the reigns of the Æon Society (at this point, it's debatable as to whether you can say he's "in charge", since in the Adventure! Era, Æon was quite an informal organisation). Now, from Aberrant d20, we can assume that at least 10-20 years before N-Day, Magaret Mercer takes the reigns, and we can be reasonably certain that by this time, the Æon council has changed signficantly over these 50 years.

It's looking more like a corporation, and thus, politics are likely to enter the picture. In fact, I think we can narrow this down further - in the APG, Whitley Styles notes that there is a "new guard" that are calling for changes, and this memo appears to date from 1977 - so I suspect the major changes to Æon happened during the 1980s.

It's likely by this time, seeing as how Mercer has literally no control of the organisation during his disappearance, that their funding is primarily coming from sources other than Mercer's personal fortune. What other sources? I dunno, but if by 1977 Styles is starting to throw in the towel, Michael Mercer may be getting ready to do the same, and Michael Mercer probably has the only keys to Max Mercer's Estate, and no corporation would want to have that shaky a funding connection without something else to back it up.

Of course, by 2008, it's pretty moot as to where fundings coming from into Utopia - by then they're self-sustaining anyway, and are starting to pay off their debt to the Aeon Society.

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Because Maxwell Mercer the Great Time Traveling Philanthopist is doing his part to bring about the aberrant war. Road to hell and all that. No doubt its going to pay massive dividents in the future but exactly how much is that going to matter to those who don't get to skip ahead in time?

Most definitely not intentionally. Remember that Mercer has seen the future - Noone of Mercer's personality would be likely to see the Aberrant War and try to think of some way to stop it, or at least reduce the bloodshed.

Mercer, in 2008, is probably pulling whatever strings are avaliable to him to try and eliminate, as much as possible, whatever suffering is in store. Was he successful? We'll never know for sure. But Mercer is not Mega-Intelligent, he's only one man, who gave up the reigns to his organisation 60 years ago, and by

Remember, according to Styles, '[ Mercer ] is the type of guy to say "There's got to be another way." By God, if he hasn't said that very thing to me... and by God again, if he hasn't found another way!'

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You're arguing style, I'm noting effect. Its a nothing ability that costs more than it brings to the table. A man with the ability to skip through time finds himself balked by someone you describe as a looney tune and you want me to respect Mercer's "great power of time control"?

Mercer is ineffective on anything but the grand sweeping epic scale and that partly because of how his power works.

Maybe, but then, it's not just one looney tune he's fighting against. He's fighting against (by 2012) over ten thousand novas, of which a sizable amount will have Mega-Intelligence, and the impetus to use it.

And anyway, how on earth do we know he's that ineffective? We don't know what the Aberrant War looked like when Mercer first visited it. It's possible that Mercer's frantic work throughout the nova age caused a significant change in how the Aberrant War turned out, and that there was far less devastation this time around.

And if that's the case... That's more than most Mega-Intelligent Novas did. By the end, many sphinxes were probably enjoying their real-life RTS, guiding pet nations into destructive wars with Aberrants, using interesting techniques designed not for combat, but for optimising their control over their baselines.

I think you are assuming an incredibly deterministic view of the Aeonverse, Which, since we have no idea of what happenned between the gaps, there is no evidence for. There's no evidence for my view either, except I suspect my view more closely aligns with the Aeonverse's themes of Hope, Sacrifice and Unity, in particular the Hope bit.

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And are you sure you want to take that view in a game that allows dramatic editing?

Daredevils are manipulating something at a subconscious level. People don't fall out of fifteen burning airplanes last week and survive. They don't fall off buildings and "accidentally" live through it. You can call it luck if you want but that's begging the question not answering it. I find it easy enough to believe that whatever they're manipulatng could allow the most advanced of the species to become unstuck in time or move as fast as he needs to.

Fortune Favours the Bold, and it's as true in 2008 as it was in 1924. And we know exactly what they're manipulating on a subconscious level, it says so right in Adventure! - they're using Telluric Energy to do the things they do. Now, it's quite valid to say that Telluric Energy is also what Mercer is using to become unstuck in time, but on a technicality all Novas and Psions work on Telluric Energy anyway, so it doesn't really tell us anything new.

And if you need an OOC view, it says right in the book that "Mercer is unique in this regard" - indicating that really, no other human on earth has what Mercer possesses, which, from WW's own mouth, kinda precludes any daredevil possessing what Mercer has.

At any rate, Æon knows of hundred of daredevils, and they did know quite a bit about them, from Dr. Primoris's theorization (which I'm sure he shared with Mercer on a constant basis) - if they're all paramorphs, how come Project Pandorra states there's only one? I think the only logical conclusion is that Mercer is not a daredevil, but something else entirely. He's obviously not a nova, but he definitely not a mere daredevil.

[Tarot]

Heya Kirby! Nice to see you awake.

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Kirby: Subjugation, perhaps, but the genocide bit? Not only patently false, but makes no sense whatsoever.

Patently false?

My intention when I put a gun to your chest and pull the trigger believing the discharging bullet is going to take a tour of your spleen by way of your heart and emerge through your spine thereby resulting in your immediate demise is not mitigated by the fact that unbeknownst to me you're wearing a bullet proof vest. So yeah, intention of genocide. Call it attempted if you like.

Babies are popping up by way of test tubes in Bahrain and through the quantum largesse of Bounty so claiming Proteus failed is a little optimistic. But enough small talk, lets get to the meat of the matter. You have the kind of relationship where you can go to your bosses and report that you brutally murdered the world's sweetheart in her own home to make Utopia seem more attractive and necessary. Your boss leaves you in your position of authority. So call me a little skeptical that Proteus sterilized the novas of the world on their own unbeknownst to anyone.

I'm aware that Utopia needs novas. So is Thetis. Her philosophy seems to be that you can't make an omelet without sterilizing the chickens and distracting them with a couple of the hens being turned into noodle soup. Note that I never said this was smart or even in their best interests let alone Utopia's or the world's best interests. It wasn't in Utopia's best interests to push their novas past their limits in their last terraforming project but they did and somehow managed to forget all about that nasty little quantum backlash thingie they'd been harping on the the last few years.

What I DID say was that the AEON that authorizes this has lost faith.

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Kirby: Now, from Aberrant d20, we can...

Don't own a copy, can't comment on it. And I want to see a DNA test of Michael Maxwell Mercer before I'm willing to admit Mercer has a biological son.

But you're proving the point I was making to Troll. Mal isn't his problem, Mercer's own organization run amok is and his "great temporal power" doesn't seem to be proving all that effective in fixing the situation.

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Kirby: Most definitely not intentionally.

Oh, most definitely not intentionally! Mercer is the good guy when everyone else is wearing shades of grey. The one of contention is that chronal awareness knack that Troll's got a lot more respect for than I do, even if he has had 70 years to hone his abilities. Precog would make him more effective with less danger to himself so I'm a little leery of

[Tarot]

(posting problems)

... So I'm a little leery of the whole; "Oh Gosh! Mercer is just so POWERFUL and up there with Q6 or Q7 novas! (swoon)." Preston manages to protect a whole city and millions of people with just pregcog but Mercer can't pick a decent successor or leave a note that says, "No matter you do, don't trust the sweet little old lady that wants to use the name Thetis. Fire her immediately and make sure she gets a new job in Alaska."

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Kirby:Maybe, but then, it's not just one looney tune he's fighting against.

Kirby... Kirby... Kirby...That's really the point of it all. Before there were 10,000 novas, before Proteus and sterilization, before there was even one mega intelligent nova, Mercer had chronal awareness. With this supposedly wonderous Q6/7 equivalent power he couldn't to the equivalent of sending a message to himself? Or leaving a message somewhere he knew he knew he was going to be earlier in his career before he developled this awesome god-like ability?

Somewhere like 1940?

"Note to self; Max you need to put a bullet in Micheal's head tomorrow. I know it seems extreme but it will save a billion lives later and will make Micheal happier in the long run.

Trust me - Future Max"

,,

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Kirby: And if you need an OOC view, it says right in the book that "Mercer is unique in this regard" - indicating that really, no other human on earth has what Mercer possesses, which, from WW's own mouth, kinda precludes any daredevil possessing what Mercer has.

Nice thought but poor logic. By that you've just proven that Stalwarts aren't eximorphs because they aren't novas like Mal since he is "as far beyond stalwarts as a stalwart is beyong a normal human". Or that Totem isn't a nova because no one else erupted into a Griffin making him "unique in this regard."

Some one always has to be first. With the novas it was Mal. And maybe... just maybe... with the Daredevil's its Mercer. Either that or there really is a fourth group of special people out there.

Of course that can't be true because WW told us that all the special people fall into one of three groups; eximorph, psychomorph and paramorph.

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Kirby: At any rate, Æon knows of hundred of daredevils, and they did know quite a bit about them, from Dr. Primoris's theorization (which I'm sure he shared with Mercer on a constant basis) - if they're all paramorphs, how come Project Pandorra states there's only one?

Because you can't point at someone and say, "He's a 'Daredevil'." There's only one conclusive test as I joking refered to before and that's the fact you can't kill one no matter how hard you try. They always manage to survive somehow. If you do an really odd thing like skip through time but don't have the gene sequence to be an eximorph or a psychomorph then you must be a paramorph. And since there are only three kinds of special people in the AEON continuum that must mean that paramorphs are the advanced version of...

The Daredevils.

[Jager]

Just a second to point out that all of you are arguing White Wolf Logic.

Remember:

Authority is Bad.

The Rebels are the Good Guys (even if they have a few bad apples).

Beyond that, before their was a Proteus, or even a Project Utopia for that matter, the Aeon Society was sterilizing novas.

-Stupid idea number one. To believe the nova population would NEVER figure out they had been sterilized and that Utopia was doing it.

It seems to me that Mercer and Mal are still having this ethical/philisophical discussion on what place "special" people should have in society.

In a way, Mal forces the Aeon Society's hand by causing the 1998 eruptions and the creation of Project Utopia.

That is the primary deviation from the "guiding hand" principle that Mercer layed out, to the "Force for Change" that Mal envisioned back in the 1920's.

Mega-Intelligence is stupid. Atleast the way White Wolf does it.

Seriously, if someone is smarter than the finest super-computer we have today, why don't they figure out all this conspiracy stuff? Why don't they find a way to avoid the Aberrant War? And, why don't they find a way for baselines and novas to live in peace?

Noting that each level of M-Int is a Quantum Leap ahead of the next.

Thetis is the exact kind of villian that Mercer fought in the 1920's, so why isn't he taking her on now?

It doesn't really matter what Donighal and Mercer are, because they are ST-plot devices. Thus, Mercer has Temporal Manipulation/Chronal Awareness and Donighal has both Stalwart and Mesmerist Knacks.

:sigh:

[Alex Craft]

"... Donighal has both Stalwart and Mesmerist Knacks."

Well, to be fair, that isn't inappropriate. He just has nova powers is all, and the only way to approximate that in Adventure is with Psychic Knacks.

As for this whole business about what everybody is, everything seems to be based on the fact that Asia Ascendant - a book that was never edited or published - said that daredevils were paramorphs. Throw that out, and suddenly Maxwell Mercer is the only paramorph and daredevils have no powers whatsoever. (In this scenario, Dramatic Editing doesn't count as a power - it's just a purely OOC way of creating the 'hero never dies' quality of pulp fiction.)