Scion: Legends of the Wild West - Scion: Legends of the Wild West - OOC Table Talk

[Cherry]

Ah, I wondered about that. Good to know.

[Cherry]

Originally Posted By: jameson (ST)

I didn't meant that to be construed as being near dawn. Dawn is at least a couple of hours away yet for you guys.

Anyway, I think this misunderstanding worked out for the best in the end and provided an opportunity for some pretty good, PC-relations-building dialogue in the process.

[Ian Gallagher]

Sorry for the crazy, finals-related delay in posting guys. I'm back now and should be posting on a regular basis again. I apologize if I held anything up.

Also, since this is a surprise action, will aiming constitute my use of that action? Or since it's a surprise, and they're zombies, does the "aiming" part not count as the action, with the actual attack considered the surprise action instead?

I think that sounded a little crazy.. but it's late, and I'm tired, LOL. Let me know and I'll modify post if need be.

[jameson (ST)]

Aiming would constitute your action.

Join Battle is # of sux on the roll

Any who take a direct action on the surprise round that needs a roll please make and post that roll. Use IC or betachat with the timestamp please.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Hadicall Cerauno

Hope I didn't just screw something up, but if the PCs have the surprise then he'd take one out. Since it's a surprise round, wouldn't our join battle apply after the surprise round? If not, just slap me an tell me to be silent...

Yes, Join Battle will apply for the first round but it also gives me an idea of who's acting first of the 4 of you (3 of you?). Normally I would roll for you all but since you were going to have to roll for your attacks I thought I'd save myself a few rolls.

[Cora Magnolia Greene]

I'll try to get a JB roll up today. Sorry for the lack of input!

[Ouroboros]

Cora, it's been over 3 weeks since your last Character post, and I have heard people saying that you are leaving the site as well as your post in one of the discussion topics to the same effect. I would like to know if you are planning to continue, or not, before I kick off the combat (better to ask now than find out in 3/4 of a round). I'll give you until around this time tomorrow to reply and get a surprise round action + JB roll up. If I don't see anything I will proceed into the combat without Cora.

Thanks

[Cora Magnolia Greene]

I just posted 48 hours ago, stating that I would make an effort to get a join battle roll up, and apologizing for my lack of input. Forum stressors aside, I don't have a fixed schedule and work and can be called in at any time- I usually am. I realize that gossip spreads like wildfire on the internet, but I would have preferred that you'd actually contacted me to ask me these things.

If I did not intend to continue, I would not have bothered saying two days ago that I'd make the roll.

Go ahead and count me out, then.

[Ouroboros]

Originally Posted By: Cora Magnolia Greene

I realize that gossip spreads like wildfire on the internet, but I would have preferred that you'd actually contacted me to ask me these things.

I did contact you, via the post two above this one. I saw no reason why this shouldn't be public information, the other players have a right to know what is going on.

[Cora Magnolia Greene]

And I saw no reason you could not have determined from my previous post that I intended to continue.

Either way, it was an interesting ride, and I appreciate the opportunity to participate. As I said, however, please do count me out. I am withdrawing from the game.

[Ouroboros]

Hadicall, thanks for keeping things moving.

Ian you are up next and have until mightnight Monday to post before I go for the zombies.

As a note to all Missed combat actions will default to the "Guard" action which is a 3 Tick action with no DV impact.

[SalmonMax]

(OOC - Understood. Sorry about that. Stuff came up yesterday. I'll try to be faster.)

[Hadicall Cerauno]

An FYI, had you inserted a post in the OOC that stated you needed more time, I would have waited. Same goes for anyone. I don't mind waiting on people who need an extra day (or even two) providing people speak up and communicate that to others.

If no one communicates, I just press on like normal.

[SalmonMax]

I've no complaints. As it happened, I didn't realize I wouldn't have any time until I was already out of the house. An afternoon trip turned into an all day trip turned into a "getting home well after midnight and you're too tired to do more than go to bed" trip. It happens, though happily not often, and under the circumstances I'm just glad it didn't hold the game up any longer than it did. Thanks for keeping things moving. I'd have felt very guilty if that hadn't happened.

[Ouroboros]

Being that it was a holiday weekend I would have understood (I was plenty busy myself) but I would like to keep things to a 48 hour window for combat as much as possible to avoid this dragging out forever.

[Kylie_OOC]

Jim -

I just want to make sure, cause I don't have the book with me (I'm out of town right now), so I can't see what "Fierce Shot" is, but I just want to make sure that my Trick Shot doesn't negate that +1 diff. Now that I look I guess I didn't call it out cause I thought it was automatic but without the ability to check right now I'm just asking you instead.

[Ouroboros]

In this case no that +1 diff would stukc, Trick shot only ignores penalties for disarming and/or attacking without doing damage.

In this case you called a head shot but there aren't any rolls for "called shots" as such (or if there are I missed them) and so I applied the Fierce attack rule instead.

[Kylie_OOC]

Okay, thanks for the clarification hon.

[Ouroboros]

Cherry, using another action in the same turn as a boon requires a second action and thus a -2 dice penalty, you can either re-roll or I will drop the last two dice. Secondly activating Boons and Knacks as a misc action has a speed of 5 meaning you'd next be able to act at tick 5...

[Cherry]

It states that Boons (not Knacks) are Miscellaneous actions - and even then only if they create their own action. If the Boon merely supplements or alters an existing action, you're supposed to use the base action's Speed, DV penalty, etc.

Compelling Presence is a knack for Epic Appearance, found in Scion: Demigod (pg. 62).

If I'm still missing something and am still mistaken, please let me know.

[Ouroboros]

It specifically calls out Boons yes, among other things but it is by no means a comprehensive list. Compelling Presence and its prerequisite knack Serpent's Gaze both create an action (you get the target to look at you and they are gobsmacked). The only knacks that waive the activation action are reactionary knacks like Solipsistic Well Being and the like. Just because the rule book doesn't call their activation out in bold type doesn't mean that they are 0 Tick activations. Unless you can point to where they are stated to be "free actions" my ruling (and the ruling of the scion community based on what I've seen on the WW boards) will stand. Action knacks require a 5 Tick Misc. Action with a -1 DV.

Further, Serpent's Gaze specifically states that it requires multiple actions to produce an attack (or other action) in the same Tick and thus garners that action a -2 dice penalty. If it (and thus its child knack) require the user to make use of multiple actions this further implies that this is not a free action.

Since you didn't state that you wanted to re-roll I will drop the last two dice and move forward with Tick 5. As is my standard practice people entering tick's enter at the "back" of the tick for the purposes of posting (the actions all take place at the same time).

[Cherry]

Because you brought it up, I took the time to look at the WW forums myself. All I see are a bunch of people disagreeing with each other because the rules as presented in Hero aren't very precise - which is, of course, the problem here (and which isn't your fault, and I do realize it presents a difficulty for you as ST). So I'm going to ignore the WW forums for the collection of (unhelpful, as far as I could see) personal opinions that they are and move on.

In regards to this specific Knack (Compelling Presence), here is a direct quote from the description for Serpent's Gaze (with emphasis added by myself), taken from Scion: Hero, pg. 133:

Originally Posted By: Scion:Hero pg 133

When the Scion spends a point of Legend, the person whom she's trying to affect locks eyes with her and is unable to look away. For combat purposes, the victim is rendered Inactive until the Scion breaks eye contact. The Scion can still act, but she must take a second action in order to do so, maintaining eye contact as a diceless action. (As a result, she suffers a -2 penalty for any other action she takes.)

Now, here is a quote taken from the description for Compelling Presence (again, with emphasis added), taken from Scion: Demigod, pg. 62:

Originally Posted By: Scion: Demigog pg 62

As with the prerequisite Knack, Compelling Performance [sic] draws a victim's attention to the Scion and renders him unable to look away. The victim remains Inactive for combat purposes, staring helplessly at the hideous monster or unearthly beauty before him. Unlike Serpent's Gaze, though, the Scion need not consciously maintain eye contact with her victim for the effect to endure.

The reason I put both of those quotes up is simple; Neither knack states that the Scion must perform any sort of action to lock eyes with the victim - in fact it states rather clearly that the victim him- or herself does that for the Scion. Moreover, Serpent's Gaze states specifically that the -2 penalty for multiple actions comes from the Scion's need to maintain eye contact (it doesn't imply this, it states it explicitly). Compelling Presence, on the other hand, states explicitly that the Scion does not need to maintain eye contact in order for the Knack to function, and may act as she pleases.

So my question is this: where is this Miscellaneous Action for activating Compelling Presence coming from?

I sympathize with your situation here, Ouro - the rules are unfortunately vague on the point of Knacks-as-Actions - and I'm not trying to be argumentative for its own sake. I am trying to understand your logic here, however, as it doesn't follow the descriptions given for the specific Knack that I used.

[Cherry]

I'm separating this out into a different post, so as not to detract from the points I've made, above.

This:

Originally Posted By: Ouroboros

Since you didn't state that you wanted to re-roll I will drop the last two dice and move forward with Tick 5. As is my standard practice people entering tick's enter at the "back" of the tick for the purposes of posting (the actions all take place at the same time).

... and your subsequent post, were both uncalled for.

I didn't clarify whether I wanted to re-roll or drop the last two dice because (as, I think, my last post should have made clear) I wasn't aware at the time that I needed to. I reread the rules regarding Miscellaneous Actions and interpreted them, in regards to this specific situation, as best I could and then I responded to your concerns. The fact that, in your mind, my interpretation was wrong is no reason for you disregard my rights as a player in this way, sir.

I'm trying to work with you. Why aren't you trying to work with me?

[Hadicall Cerauno]

Awesome. Thanks for the bonus Oro. Not to be nit picky, but Zombies usually have a Legend of 1 so they don't count 10's as two successes. Only reason I'm mentioning it is because I usually forget that myself and have often given everyone from Gang Bangers to Zombies double successes on a 10.

[Ouroboros]

Originally Posted By: Hadicall Cerauno

Awesome. Thanks for the bonus Oro. Not to be nit picky, but Zombies usually have a Legend of 1 so they don't count 10's as two successes. Only reason I'm mentioning it is because I usually forget that myself and have often given everyone from Gang Bangers to Zombies double successes on a 10.

Actually that's part of the extras rule not the Legend rules. I figured that 6 zombies as extras without some kind of "boss" wouldn't be a challenging fight.

[Hadicall Cerauno]

I dunno... these don't seem all that easy to scratch with our dice pools (or maybe just mine, heh). But I don't have enough coupons and math to back up that claim.

[Ouroboros]

Originally Posted By: Cherry

So my question is this: where is this Miscellaneous Action for activating Compelling Presence coming from?

I sympathize with your situation here, Ouro - the rules are unfortunately vague on the point of Knacks-as-Actions - and I'm not trying to be argumentative for its own sake. I am trying to understand your logic here, however, as it doesn't follow the descriptions given for the specific Knack that I used.

Its coming from my interpretation of the rules as the ST for the game. If you need me to I will go through each and every knack and break them out in reactive, augmentative, and action, that is, ones that require no action, require a sympathetic action, or require their own action, but that does strike me as overkill.

I've thought about it on my own, and discussed it some with Carver, and while I still don't agree I will remove the -2 dice penalty moving forward as its not worth my continued time to argue over two dice on one action in any given combat.

Originally Posted By: Cherry

... and your subsequent post, were both uncalled for.

... The fact that, in your mind, my interpretation was wrong is no reason for you disregard my rights as a player in this way, sir.

I'm trying to work with you. Why aren't you trying to work with me?

I did not intentionally disregard your player's rights, I acted in accordance to my rule, as ST, at the time in order to forward the combat for the benefit of all players. The fact that in your mind my interpretation was wrong doesn't mean that as the ST you can ignore it.

And I have been working with you, I allowed you a custom god and I allowed you to create a custom weapon template. I'm not, nor have I been, singling you out, or ruling in any way but with the intention to maintain the best interest of the game.

[Ouroboros]

Originally Posted By: Hadicall Cerauno

I dunno... these don't seem all that easy to scratch with our dice pools (or maybe just mine, heh). But I don't have enough coupons and math to back up that claim.

Admittedly their soak is more effective than I anticipated but the damage they've returned thus far has been less than what they've taken which is a good ratio no matter how you look at it.

Edit: Don't forget you can use willpower to channel virtues as apprpriate and Legend to augment dice pools as well.

[BlueNinja]

A question. (Yes, I know, I'm not in the game, but please humor me anyway).

Quote:

3 sux vs DV 3

I was under this impression that this would be a tie, and ties go to the defender? Or did I misunderstand the combat rules?

[Ouroboros]

meets or exceeds

I think attackers win ties probably because of how strong soak is in scion (applying to damage sux instead of damage dice)

[BlueNinja]

OK, I can see that. Thanks for the explanation.

[Ouroboros]

Per the Stunt Dice I am retroactively awarding the following bonuses effective to their next actions:

Cherry and Chrys +1 dice

[Cherry]

I apologize for the delay in getting a post up in regards to this, but this is the first time since early Thursday that I've both had time and an internet connection, so this was the earliest I could manage this.

Ouroboros: Sorry man, but I'm pulling out of your games. You have every right to run your games as you see fit, and I don't deny that, but I have every right to not play in games that are run in ways I disagree with.

RE: Compelling Presence: You can use whatever oblique phrasing you like to justify your actions in this situation, but the plain and simple fact is that your "interpretation of the rules" - at least in this instance - makes no sense. And you know it, which is why your last response in regards to this issue, quite contrary to the two posts before it, made no effort to present a logical train of thought leading to your decision.

Serpent's Gaze makes it very clear that using it while performing any other action imposes a penalty, and it makes it equally clear that this penalty comes from the need to maintain eye contact with the victim.

Not only does Compelling Presence not require this, it would make no sense for it to require this. Compelling Presence can be used against multiple targets, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, but normal people with normal anatomies can not make eye contact with multiple people simultaneously. The one and only thing about this Knack's predecessor that made it into a Diceless Action is not present in Compelling Presence.

Likewise, saying that spending a point of Legend is a Diceless Action makes no sense, because every 'raw' use of Legend (Legendary Deeds, Re-rolling an Action, Defensive Do-over) are all quite obviously Reflexive (in the case of the latter two, it wouldn't even rightly qualify as an 'action' at all). This makes it quite clear that spending Legend itself does not qualify as any sort of Action.

In the same way, stating that even a brief need to make eye contact for this Knack to function, and that this therefore qualifies it as a Misc. Action makes no sense, for two reasons. Firstly, neither Knack states that the Scion herself has to make eye contact for the effects to take hold (though Serpent's Gaze does require the Scion to maintain eye contact once the victim looks her way). Secondly, any game wherein "briefly meeting someone's gaze" qualifies as an Action, Diceless or otherwise, is not a game I wish to play in, because that's just stupid.

And that leaves... nothing. Not one single reason to declare this Knack as anything other than a Reflexive use of the Scion's divine power.

Now, the fact that you might have missed all this in your first reading of the Knack isn't really a problem to me. We're all pretty new to this game's mechanics at this point, so I hardly think anyone expects you to get it right on the first try every single time. But the fact that you continue to behave as though there's any justification to your ruling beyond, "because I'm the ST and I say so" - that is a problem for me.

And the fact that you're only (grudgingly, to all appearances) willing to change your ruling going forward (and only because it's "not worth your time to argue") is bullshit. If I, or another player, had used a Knack in a way that didn't immediately seem to be breaking the rules, but that did seem to be breaking the game, and you had ruled that going forward you were going to change how that Knack functioned so that it would be less game-breaking (and that you were willing to discuss with the players so affected how this might impact them); that I could understand.

Instead, you changed/edited/scribbled all over my post, and altered it to the extent that, instead of cleverly managing to get two successful attacks off against a vastly overpowered NPC (seriously, dude, you're pitting my starting level Scion whose best attack has a base damage pool of 7d10L against a guy whose base soak - never mind DVs - is 7L? WTF?) using a perfectly legitimate and entirely logical usage of one of my paid-for Knacks, my PC has now been rather badly injured, and has been pressed up against the edge of a freaking cliff.

Nicely done, sir. Nicely. Done.

You remember when I put up that post challenging your judgement of my Puff, the Magic Dragon submission, stating that the way you had handled it made it seem like there was no point in me putting any effort into this game, because it didn't seem like it was effort that you wanted to reward? This is exactly what I was talking about. I wrote you a good post, with a clever usage of Cherry's abilities, in a way that was entertaining. For my troubles, all I got was 4 Bashing Health Levels of damage that my PC should never have suffered in the first place.

RE: Custom Gods and Weapon Templates: Okay seriously, can you let up about this? You keep bringing it up like it was some sort of major undertaking for you, not to mention an act of almost unprecedented magnanimity on your part. It wasn't either one.

I am the one who put in hours of hard work and research, carefully going over everything I could find about Durga (who, despite being relatively unknown in the West is nonetheless one of the most widely worshiped deities on the planet and is one of the central deities in Hinduism - it's not my fault White Wolf forgot about her), and diligently compiled all of that information for you to read over and simply give a "yea" or "nay" to. And that's all you did too, bud. Granted, I did send you a secondary submission after the first one, on account of my having come across more information that I felt you should know about, and granted that it did involve a change to the list of Associated Purviews, but two things: 1) I stated clearly in that submission (and afterwards) that I was only really interested in you knowing about Durga's background and history and that you could just leave the Purview stuff as-is if you wanted because I really didn't give a damn about it, and 2) under either list of Associated Purviews, the majority of Cherry's actual, purchased Knacks and Boons are - and would have remained in the future - non-associated (meaning any changes in Durga's list would only have affected, in my own mind at least, what she herself as a goddess was capable of bringing to bear - one way or the other, I always planned on having to pay the more expensive costs of non-associated boons/knacks for most of Cherry's divine powers).

So stop acting like I dropped some kind of huge burden on you. At no point did I ask you to do all the work, and at no point did I ask you to grant me some huge mechanical advantage that no one else had access to. I put in all of the hard work and effort to make Durga as fully fleshed-out of a Scion goddess as I could manage, not you. And as for mechanical stuff, the only reason Cherry has as many Associated Purviews as she does is because you asked me (though, to be fair, you didn't demand) to not take as many non-associated ones as I had, and so I obliged you.

And as for the weapon... wow, man. The fact that this is still such an issue for you is another reason I'm pulling out. She has a Henry repeating rifle. It's a lever-action rifle; in tests conducted shortly before the Civil War, it was found that the weapon's 15 shot magazine could be emptied in less than 11 seconds. Now, call me overly optimistic, but I'm pretty sure this makes it a weapon that fires faster than the bolt-action Remington that's statted out in the core book on pg. 203. So I gave the weapon a base Speed of 5, not 6. And that's all I did to its base template.

A change of 1 tick in Speed, and for very good, historical and real-world reasons. And you keep bringing it up as though you very graciously allowed me to bring in some never-before-tested, and potentially very unbalancing game mechanic into your story, when it was in fact a very minor and utterly predictable modification to an already existing game mechanic. Neither the "custom god" or the "custom weapon" (tries not laugh as he types that) were in any way, shape, or form particularly complicated or difficult for you to review, approve or deny, or properly account for and/or manage in your game. Or at least neither of them should have been. The fact that, despite this, they both are apparently a huge deal for you does not inspire confidence in my heart.

So yeah, I'm pulling out. Do what you want with my PCs (Cherry or Heavy). You're a nice enough guy in chat, jameson, but your attitude as an ST (at least in your interactions with me) has really sucked.

[Ouroboros]

May Exp is posted (+2 for all).

[Hadicall Cerauno]

Question, when would be an okay time to spend XP? Obviously not in the middle of combat (without an okay), but do want us to keep it to spending between chapters, or just anytime providing we don't pull a dick move and give ourselves a knack right in the middle of a situation where it would give us the perfect advantage.

[Ouroboros]

Any time that it isn't a dick move let me know and I'll probably approve it.

[Ouroboros]

Apologies for not updating yesterday. The optometrist dilated my pupils and so most of the afternoon/evening I was unable to read or comfortably view the PC for long periods.

Combat notes:

I don't mind doing the heavy lifting for combat. I try to provide you with the opposing DVs and Soaks so that you can calc. your own hits and damage and roll those but if you don't feel like doing so or are unable I would appreciate strongly if you all can post your DV as modified by your actions, the speed of your attacks (so I can calculate when you next act), and your base damage for the attack.

Thanks

[Hadicall Cerauno]

Please skip me this time around. I'm feeling a little under the weather but I don't want to hold anyone else up. Hadicall can simply assess the situation to decide where best to strike next...

[Ouroboros]

Thanks for the heads up. Actually given the inevitability of the outcome of this fight I'm going to jut narrate your victory so that we can move on.

[Ouroboros]

If GDP is around and still interested in playing he can jump in at this point and I'll feed him the relevant information as needed. Otherwise I'll NPC him.