Aberrant: Phoenix Rising - Table Talk: Phoenix Rising

[Courier]

If his enhancement were "S-looks" I'd do that, but it's "First Impression"... and none of the PCs are going to start trusting him because he suddenly looks more trustable.

Ash especially knows that nuking the Moon people is in Doug's head as a menu option.

[jameson (ST)]

option? I thought it was still the defacto plan:

• Step 1: Get a Nuke
• Step 2: Nuke the moon
• Step 3: ???
• Step 4: Profit

[SalmonMax]

lol...you can replace the option with, "Wiping out what's left of humankind" if you like.

[Courier]

Doug isn't trying to profit, he's trying to prevent loses.

[jameson (ST)]

Courier you need to read this, or better yet, see the episode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underpants_Gnomes

[Courier]

I caught the reference... but it's like saying...

1) Bring the criminal to justice.

2) ???

3) Profit.

The paradigm is wrong. We aren't going to profit by nuking the moon. Humanity is in for a period of darkness that could last for thousands of years.

But that's better than the other menu options on the table. We've been through periods of darkness before (the fall of the Roman empire, the near extermination of humanity from some rock... our genetic history shows we were killed down to a few thousand).

But the alternative appears to be to trust that now that the moonies have driven nuts everyone they want to, that they'll leave everyone else alone. That seems unrealistically optimistic. They were willing to stand back and let *the entire bio-sphere* die. With that as their opening move, 'mercy' seems unlikely.

There are abbies around that they're going to have to kill if they want to take over the planet, given how tough abbies are, whatever method they choose probably will get everyone else too. That's over and above the issues of 'revenge' and 'justice', both of which also suggest that we kill every man jack of them.

[SalmonMax]

Nnngh.

I don't mind if Doug carries on as if he had definitive proof the Moonies somehow caused all this, but it'd be nice if OOC we didn't.

More than that, whatever else is going on, the Moonies represent the best chance for SOME kind of civilization to resume on Earth. It's pretty clear that if we stay, we'll wind up gibbering taintmonkeys before long. Nuking them would therefore be essentially giving humanity...as we know it...the last kiss goodbye.

Justice isn't worth that IMO, even if the Moonies ARE behind it all.

[jameson (ST)]

Max, shame you didn't say that IC, would have been a nice little speech from Ash.

[SalmonMax]

Yeah, but it's a speech she already gave...at least the essence of it. Just before Doug and Raider decided to start looking for other planets to settle on, Ash made that point that the moon men were probably the last remnant of human civilization that had any chance to rebuild...and nuking them would mean essentially condemning the last dregs of humankind to being hunted and slaughtered by aberrants.

[Courier]

the moon men were probably the last remnant of human civilization that had any chance to rebuild

They haven't shown any interest in rebuilding... or at least, not without TOTALLY destroying the entire bio-sphere first.

nuking them would mean essentially condemning the last dregs of humankind to being hunted and slaughtered by aberrants.

And whose fault is that?

I don't mind if Doug carries on as if he had definitive proof the Moonies somehow caused all this...

Within the bounds of known knowledge, we do. Motive, opportunity, means... and even history. It's like finding an abused wife standing over her dead husband holding the murder weapon. Technically no one 'saw' her do it but that's the way to bet.

...but it'd be nice if OOC we didn't.

OOC? OOC IMHO what happened was something like Hammersmith, but since the Earth already had a high level of Q we went up from there (or the tech used to make the effect worked 'better'). OOC we know that it really is possible to make screw ups on this scale without meaning too...

...although even here it's still possible to argue that the Moon people had something to do with it. I.e. the guy making the machine was probably Raider's dad (or someone continuing his work). He might not have known he was playing with gasoline and matches but presumably they would have if they'd kept better track of their people and their technology.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Yeah, but it's a speech she already gave...

Clearly they aren't listening, maybe it bears saying again?

Originally Posted By: Courier

And whose fault is that?

That's a good question, shame you only have hearsay and supposition to go on

Originally Posted By: Courier

I.e. the guy making the machine was probably Raider's dad (or someone continuing his work).

*smirk*

[Mr Fox]

Hearsay and supposition is all we have to go on. That which was handed out by the ST.

If you want us to pursue other options give us something to go on. Right now all we've got is the moonies, Raider just pulled the colonizing others planets thing out of his ass for lack of anything else to do.

At this point I think we could use a plot push in some direction or other, we've pretty much gone as far as we can go on what we've got.

[SalmonMax]

Not necessarily.

This is a really nice city. It seems unlikely that it wasn't provided with ANY security or defense mechanisms. Yet the AI we've encountered hasn't got any access to such things.

Maybe we should explore more. I bet a defense AI would know a lot more about what was in the sky, and who put it there.

[jameson (ST)]

It has been intentional Fox, this isn't so much a mystery to be solved as much as its a situation like Mikey was in LM, there isn't a right or wrong answer or some grand solution. Do what you think is best for your characters and those they care about.

You guys have been saying for literal months that the moonies need to pay, well I haven't seen you actually decide on a plan and execute that plan. Either flee, wait for the end to come, or attack; or find another option.

[Mr Fox]

Ok, so then we just need to act one way or another.

I guess that means we go with plan A. Go talk with the moonies and nuke them if we don't like what they say.

[Mr Fox]

Incidentally, I'm with Courier. If they prove to be evil villians who intentionally committed Genocide then I say the species should die rather than let them profit from their actions.

[SalmonMax]

...

I don't even know what to say to that.

Vengeance at the cost of humanity's survival? Really? You'd see the entire species destroyed just to satisfy your own personal sense of right and wrong?

That's selfishness on an absolutely cosmic level.

[jameson (ST)]

take it to the IC thread ... please, I'm begging here, this kind of debate is GOLDEN

[Mr Fox]

Is it? What kind of humanity would it be that survived? Those on Earth would be better off even dealing with the Aberrants than the sure death at the hands of the Moonies. (This all assumes they are guilty of genocide).

Jameson we already pretty much had this discussion ICly. IC I think we know where everyone stands. Doug wants the moonies dead for the treat they pose. Raider is undecided pending on proof of their guilt. Ash would let them win and wipe us out if it meant a piece of the human race surviving, even if that piece is the moonies and not us. At this point the only thing remaining is going to the Moon and confronting them to determine if they are genocidal or not. If not then we ask for help, if so then Doug and Raider attempt to nuke them against the wishes of the others.

[Courier]

First, IMHO ST still has some more surprises to pull out of his hat.

Second... we're not dealing with the survival of humanity any more. We think Humanity will survive (the US created an Earth 2 somewhere).

Further, I'm not sure it's fair (or accurate) to say that nuking them will exterminate humanity. Humanity will survive down here too. It will be baselines entering a period of darkness and insane gods for a while, but even right this minute there are far more people living on the Earth than on the Moon.

[Mr Fox]

Raider was pretty harsh there. Just want to say for the record, that's all IC.

[jameson (ST)]

Some free Advice so that you guys don't get pwned by my personal interpretations of the rules: Raider would know how his power works and would be aware that if he tried to bring the nuke in under the city it would cease to function as soon as it ceased to be phase shifted, and if it were shifted when it popped it would kill Raider and might not even affect the city.

Just as soon as you two settle on a plan and say you are going I'll kick you over to the moon. Likewise I'm waiting for Ash to reply to Anna before I move them forward.

[Mr Fox]

Raider would go in under the surface and come up until he found an opening in a basement or cavern under their dome. Also, with DD5 he can selectively send things in and out of phase, in other words he could make just his hand and the gun it was holding solid and pull the trigger only exposing a small fraction of his body to potential harm. Same with the nuke, he could selectively make it solid and the rest of himself stay insubstantial. Either way he would release the thing before detonating.

Which for the record, hopefully it won't come to that.

[jameson (ST)]

OK, that wasn't clear, it sounded to me like you were planning to drop it into the bedrock and *boom*

Well in that case if that is your plan Raider need only kick off and jump up with Doug, I'll take care of the rest in a new thread

[SalmonMax]

Whoa...there's a big time skip in there.

I assume Ash will have time to act during the hours they're doing stuff after abandoning her, right?

[Mr Fox]

I got the impression from Jim's post that he would be handling it in a separate thread.

[Courier]

I don't see why there's a big time jump. Raider already checked out the nuke, it shouldn't take him *hours* just to put a dead man switch on it.

[jameson (ST)]

timing is irrelevant to the Moonies

[jameson (ST)]

Doug and Raider will continue shortly in Chap 6a: Lost for Words

[jameson (ST)]

6a is up, apologies for Raider, not much to do at the moment

Depending on Ashley their will be a 6b: Coming Back to Life and possible a 6c. Those will go up once I know for certain what she is doing.

[jameson (ST)]

OK, here's the deal. Fox the below snippet from your post last night is, in my mind, a direct attempt to circumvent the effects of Doug's use of M-Manip on you. I've seen nothing in your portrayal of Raider that would indicate mistrusts Doug enough to suspect he's lying. I'm going to dock you a WP as though you (the player) used one to have Raider (the PC) ignore the attack (which is what it was). Had I been able to catch this sooner I would have asked for an edit/retraction but I'm not going to do that. We'll move forward as it is.

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

"My friend here is very upset and as we have mentioned he has the ability to tell when someone is lying. He says you are lying about not knowing about survivors on Earth before we deflected the comet. That would make you guilty of genocide. Justice would then demand that the guilty be punished for such an act." He might have been insubstantial, but his frown could still be seen easily.

As a side note, Max's thread has a direct chance to impinge upon 6a, and as such I am going to call a hold on posting in 6a until I can resolve Max a little further. I'll unlock things as soon as I'm ready. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Mr Fox]

How is that in any way not believing Doug? I read that quote above and I don't see an issue. Raider has stated the facts of the situation, plain and simple, nothing in that says he doesn't believe Doug. Just because he believes Doug does not mean he will hit the button. He still has his own free will to do with that information what he chooses. He believes him, but committing genocide is not something Raider is going to do lightly even if he agrees with Doug that they are guilty of it themselves and intend to keep trying.

Ash has also been trying to influence him to not do it and has made the argument that even if they are guilty they are humanities best hope.

Right now Raider believes these people have things they need. Advanced tech and possibly information on how to avoid what will otherwise be a certain fate. He's not going to blow them up until he's had a chance to get some answers and even if they refuse he still has one more idea on how to get justice without committing genocide.

And I will repeat. Trusting Doug completely does not mean Raider doesn't still have free will to make whatever decision he wants to make. Also, Doug is starting to betray his irrationality on the subject. One or two more responses like the last one would easily start to make Raider wonder. But for now Raider has his own plan. He agrees that these people are genocidal and a continuing threat to Earth, but he believes they might be humanities last hope, and he has an idea on how to get justice without nuking them. More to come on that as things progress.

[Courier]

...One or two more responses like the last one...

Thing is the logic cuts both ways.

If they're potential mass murders (and claiming willful ignorance and incompetence isn't exactly a reassuring defense), then the expected reaction from Doug is being pissed.

And honestly, the problem with the whole "the earth needs them" line of logic is they've shown *no* willingness to help anyone. I'll point that out ic too, but these people have been botching their diplomatic rolls left and right. That's *especially* true regarding their views on the former Mr. Yellow (i.e. that his actions were our fault).

In a first contact situation where you accidentally tried to exterminate the other side, it's reasonable that they're going to send someone to look into you... and it's criminal incompetence to use that opportunity to make their families think that they're dead.

[jameson (ST)]

got Max caught up, unlocked and posted to 6a ... please continue

[Mr Fox]

Well, Raider doesn't disagree with Doug. That's not he issue, the issue is that they have things Earth needs. So what that they aren't willing to help, that makes them bad guys and makes Raider less hesitant to nuke them, but nuking them won't save anyone from the immediate problems. It will save them from potential future attacks true, but the people on Earth might not survive long enough to be around for future attacks.

The other problem is that the only moonies we've met are 4, their leaders. For all we know their people are ignorant of anything going on with Earth and that Raider, Doug, et all have even visited. Raider has an idea about that which will play out. But yes, Doug is pissed, but if he sounds pissed beyond the point of rationality then Raider could start to question his motives. Arguing for blowing them up without waiting to see if we can get any help is not rational from Raider's viewpoint. Thus my comment above.

[Mr Fox]

Ok, so I've posted. I know that Raider now looks like a villain. Keep in mind as you judge him, he firmly believes the three leaders are lying and they knowingly attempted genocide against the people of Earth. He also sees them refusing to offer aid as them being monsters unwilling to lift a hand to save a dying man. Yeah, raider came to them armed, does that negate their responsibility as decent sentient beings to render aid to the victims of tragedy? A tragedy that they caused?

He still is trying to find a way out of committing genocide in return and thus his ultimatum. If the general population of the moonies are innocent then the three leaders have to die to eliminate the threat that he believes they pose. But if they die, and the people are innocent then Raider won't nuke em.

I know that to some people here on the site OOC wise there is no justification whatsoever to using a nuke, so there is no way you'll like what Raider is doing, but that is what he would do in the situation. He's trying to find a way out of it, but he is firmly convinced that they tried to kill every man woman and child on Earth and that they intend to let the rest die when they could prevent it making them ongoing murders. To Raider that makes it an act of self defense on behalf of the people of Earth.

[SalmonMax]

Lemme put it this way, for me there's no justification for what -Raider- is doing.

But I have no problem with you, Fox. I don't think I made that clear enough before, and I apologize for that.

The contortions you're going through to try to convince us he's doing the right thing kind of inflamed me, I admit. He's not. But you're playing him according to your concept of his character, and I find no fault in you doing so.

[Courier]

Given a hostile genocidal alien race sitting on our doorsteps, I'm pretty sure irl the nukes would come out pretty early. I'm equally sure this would happen regardless of whether or not they brought along their civilians. Our civilians have the right to live too.

The rock was an act of total war. They followed that up with screwing over the diplomatic party we sent. They're now in the process of pissing off the guy with the nuke who is trying to investigate both of those earlier events. The people doing these things are this society's chosen representatives. One hopes that part of their job is making sure that you don't accidentally end up in wars with other people.

Granted, Doug isn't helping matters, I've posted ic where his head is at. He's seen the death of his entire culture and the taint ten-ing of his taint one girlfriend in the last 48 hours... and he's decided to hold the moon people responsible.

[SalmonMax]

They're treating you with all the contempt due to terrorists. Which, in my view, Doug and Raider are.

Granted, they're not acting particularly AFRAID of them...which may give one pause, if one stops to think.

I've never agreed that "the rock" was an act of war, and I still don't. But then, I suspect that what constitutes an act of war is just one of those things we'll never agree on. I'm content to leave it at that.

[Courier]

They're treating you with all the contempt due to terrorists.

True, but that's somewhat better than how they treated us the first time. That btw was a serious mistake on their part that they're still paying for.

I've never agreed that "the rock" was an act of war, and I still don't.

They might not have intended for it to be one, but it's reasonable for us to take it as one. We don't *have* to go to war, and the PCs have been trying very hard to avoid going to war, but these guys have been making it very hard for us to do that.

terrorists. Which, in my view, Doug and Raider are.

Freedom fighters.