Is it really that obvious?

[Kirby1024]

OK, I'm this close to giving up.

Throughout the Opnet Boards, there has been distinct Terat bias. Obviously, they are the most interesting characters to play, but I have to admit, it's getting difficult to continue to defend the human stance here.

Which is odd, really, because I keep looking at the "evidence" that the Terats provide, and as myself, not Sydney, Teknokat or Alex, it always rings a little hollow. I dunno why, but it's always been my personal belief that perhaps novas are just a little more human that any Terat will care to admit.

I could argue quite a few (to me) fairly persuasive points OOC, but a lot of these arguments are meta-argument related - I can't really do it IC-ly with much power. Sydney doesn't have the right mindset to argue what I would, and to be honest, neither does Teknokat. Alex doesn't post to often anymore, and maybe he'd be more likely to provide the points I would, but I still feel I'd be torn apart.

So, is it really that obvious? Am I just deluding myself here, believing an blantantly false assumption? I try my best to keep the debate going, but frankly, I'm running out of points (and most of the ones I have left are semantic points - only useful in real debates, not Net debates).

Does anyone have any real points to debate that novas are merely human? I'm not sure if I have any left that haven't been torn down!

[sigh] That's what I get for trying to debate with people with more IQ than a Mensa convention...

[Hugin]

So, what are you going to give up?

Are you missing something obvious? I dunno. I just look at it from this point of view. Objectivity is impossible. Each nova is different, radically different than each other nova and much more different than they can remember being when they were human. When you change, your worldview is going to change.

I simply think that many novas are going to chance so significantly that they will be unable to relate with human beings anymore. No matter how much you tell them they are still human, they aren't going to believe you. So, you still think they are human, they don't. They are going to dissassociate themselves from humanity and there is nothing you can do about it. You may find their arguments hollow, but it doesn't matter.

I'm running a game now and a few of the players and a few of the NPCs are dealing with problems that make it very difficult for them to look at another human being and consider them 'brothers'. Citadel is constantly surrounded by a glowing green forcefield that extends a foot from him in all directions. He can't hear very well at all through it, he can't feel through it, he doesn't sleep, eat or breathe and he is clumsy as hell trying to walk about since he can't feel his feet hitting the ground. He is totally removed from his environment in a way that no human being can appreciate. Their common frame of reference is dramatically removed from his. There is an NPC, Boomslang (my creation, Rossi just killed him in his ficton) who has a wealth of MegaManip, MegaCharisma and MegaAppearence. He's gay and he's seduced one of the characters twice now, who isn't gay. That is something he's had to deal with. He doesn't know who shares his sexual orientation and who doesn't. Everyman he evercomes across, unless they have a particularly high willpower or some such thing, is attracted to him. Now it is his desire that defines reality in this respect. It's gotten hard for him to look at other people as being 'real' in a way. Again, he is moving away from an attitude that allowes him to look upon human beings as being part of the tribe. They are toys. He's not a bad man, but if everyone does everything you want, whenever you want, and love you for it, what is that going to do to you?

I actually see the Utopian movement to keep novas 'human' and 'helpful' as empty. A lot of it is just opinion, don't let my opinions get you down.

Oh, and I personally couldn't qualify for MENSA on my best day.

[Fortune's Son]

Kirby,

First off I wouldn't want you to give up. Not in the sense that Sydney, T-Kat or Alex throws up their hands and join nova vigilance or the cult of Mal tomorrow anyway. Conflict is interesting in RP but only with the caveats that no decent RP should ever come down to who has the bigger quantum blast and that conflict between characters is not a fight between between players.

Personally, although RPing a closely matched physical fight or one where the odds are against you can be fun, I've always enjoyed the conflict between philosophies more. As you may have noticed.

On the idea of the board being Terat in bias...

I've seen the board composition change wildly over the eighteen months that I've been around. Two years ago any Utopian that stuck their head in the door to just say hi was lynched as a reflex. Literally. And Elites got the same treatment but with more prejudice. The best you could hope for was to be called a prostitute.

Now we have two strong uppies that will not only argue their case without backing down but after you hit them they'll come back with a baseball bat if you try and play dirty with them. In short they believe in the dream whether they know of unsavory elements in the company or not.

And the Elites... I like to think that this is how Elites would act. Between the five or six that come around they vary between the extremes of Bastard and Professional Soldier (no I'm not saying who is who). But they all share an arrogance, capablity and the diamond hard certainty that comes from putting your butt on the line for a living and surviving. Even in a world where an serial killer can possess the powers of a god tomorrow they are dangerous people but that doesn't change who they are underneath the mask or the green skin.

In short; I hope this isn't ultimately a win/lose proposition. On some of your specific points...

Quote:

Throughout the Opnet Boards, there has been distinct Terat bias.

Actually, I think there always has been though the Terats (Ashnod) were frequently taken to task for Terat methods and on questions of responsibility and morality. And I think it was Jordan Rossi in the OWW story that described the board a year ago as, "Distinctly anti-Utopian with Terat bias but overall hopeful in outlook."

I think it might be a mistake to characterize even Jack Chance's latest discourse as Terat bias for a couple of reasons. Terats might applaud his sentiments but that doesn't mean he's going to get his membership card in the near future or will refrain from trying to kick Geryon's teeth in if they push him.

He believes what he's arguing, Chance is always truthful, but his arguments aren't based on Utopian vs Terat philosophies. He's arguing what he truly believes in. And he's also making a couple of points that are, to my knowledge, new to the board. That there is a baseline side to the problem beyond the expectation of servitude to baseline society. That baseline attitudes are just as much to blame for the current state of affairs as the appearance of nova powers and egos.

I'd like to say that he came up with the idea that being other than human is not a sin but Ashnod and Apep have been arguing that for a long and thankless time with very little praise for their excellent role playing in the face of adversity. I may be wrong but I think there have been times where they've probably felt ~exactly~ the same way you do now.

I'd also like to point out that another character I sometimes play, Babylon, has gone on record here as answering the charge that novas aren't human with a single word:

"D'uh!"

Some would call that a Terat bias but to her its a statement of fact. But look; she's still a member of T2M, would never make that statement in public as its against the company policy, and most importantly she believes in the dream of a brighter tomorrow. She's not a cookie cutter Utopian punching the clock and collecting her seven figure paycheck to go punch out Terats.

She doesn't go after Terats because they're Terat's but rather because they've committed a crime or because they're endangering people. She's trying to ~help~. Yeah, she's not what the world would call human but neither is she inhuman and she's out there trying to make it a better place regardless of what they think of her. And occassionally she gets to call people like Vile Bill a bastard because they won't do the same.

Sorry Bill.

Kirby, the game may start with the assumption of Utopia vs the Teragen duking it out over the future but the question is constantly evolving. Here on the boards where the metaplot is still several hazy decades away from a major turning point it isn't a question of Terats vs ???. It's about the choices our characters are making and ~why~ they are making them.

For instance; why is Sydney defending the human viewpoint? It can't be for the simple reason that he's not a Terat. Does he need to defend that "novas are just human" to want humans and novas to work together? Is he afraid of being cast adrift from the world he knows? For him defending the human viewpoint may be the only thing that works but there are other possible answers.

Quote:

Obviously, they are the most interesting characters to play...

Would it surprise you to know that I've never played a Terat? In TT or in the forums? I would like to think that my characters are interesting because of who they are rather than the organization listed in the allegiance block.

Quote:

... but I have to admit, it's getting difficult to continue to defend the human stance here.

So chuck it.

Chance isn't arguing that we should all kiss up to Divis Mal and join the Terragen to smash the opressive Utopia so why is Sydney arguing the Utopia party line?

Heck it was a Utopian, Babylon, that told Avenger01 to piss off because she was doing what Count Orzaiz said to do by exercising her right to choose and her sense of responsibility to help people. The baselines had asked for her help and she chose freely to give it to them so if he had a problem with that then he should go talk with the Count.

As I recall Avenger01 coughed up a hairball.

Each characters makes their own choices for their own reasons and under the unique circumstances of their lives. For instance Chance's are that for the first time he's seeing what he does as more than a game, he's come across something (the Barakas) that evokes a profound and utter sense of loathing and the person in the world he cares most about is reviled by all that know her story. And on top of that they're going to have child.

Do you really think Chance personally cares what Divis Mal thinks or wants even if their beliefs are similar? He may not be wholly human but he loves Graveyard Jill and will protect both her and their child against any and all comers. There may not be a word for what he is, his view of reality may be so different from "normal" that baselines can't comprehend what it is to be him, but I think most of them could understand his feelings towards Jill and the baby. Maybe not why he feels that way but that's a different problem.

Quote:

I dunno why, but it's always been my personal belief that perhaps novas are just a little more human that any Terat will care to admit.

Mine too. That's probably why I never played a Terat.

Quote:

Sydney doesn't have the right mindset to argue what I would, and to be honest, neither does Teknokat. Alex doesn't post to often anymore, and maybe he'd be more likely to provide the points I would, but I still feel I'd be torn apart.

Possibly.

But note that example I mentioned where Babylon defended herself against a Terat by quoting his philosophy and spokesman right back at him. He attacked her and she forced him to defend the contradiction of his own views. That's not a recommendation by the way, just the appropriate response for that character in that situation. But it worked because Babylon knew why she did what she did and didn't let Utopia do her thinking for her.

Now, Ashnod would probably have torn her apart but sometime that happens.

Quote:

Am I just deluding myself here, believing an blantantly false assumption?

No, I don't think you're deluding yourself.

Quote:

Does anyone have any real points to debate that novas are merely human? I'm not sure if I have any left that haven't been torn down!

Ask yourself a simple question; what is it that the character wants to prove? Now ask yourself why they believe that. They may find that in face of argument and evidence they have to adjust their view. That doesn't mean they should fly to Castle Orzaiz and sign up.

No character concept or writeup survives RPing unchanged. If they did there would be no fun to it.

Babylon believes novas are other than than human but she's never said they're "more" or used the phrase "more evolved". She's dedicated herself to making the world a better place and will continue to work for Utopia until that's no longer the best way to help the world. At some point she may even ally with the Terragen to accomplish something but its very unlikely she'll ever be a Terat. She thinks they're selfish. She believes in a responsiblity to others that some Terats might respect but as a group they don't subscribe to the belief.

Sydney, or any other character for that matter, doesn't need to prove who's right in the metaplot. They're arguing their personal choices and sense of place in the world. No matter who is right or wrong in the metaplot each character finds their own way.

And thank you for the Mensa compliment, which is blatantly false. Much appreciated but...

[Fortune's Son]

Now that it's several hours later and after some sleep I've thought of a relatively short way to sum up all of the above.

It is impossible to play a Utopian.

Really.

It's also impossible to play a Terat, an Elite, a Directive agent, a Public Defender, a private contractor or a generally independent sort of Independent. A character who just happens to be one of the above is possible but if the depth of the role play is limited to the allegiance and (for instance) shouting I AM A TERAT then it's unlikely the player is prepared to defend his views and choices.

"Why do you believe novas aren't human?"

"Because I'm a Terat."

"Well... okay, so why do you believe humans are oppressing novas?"

"Because I'm a Terat and Terats say so."

"What do you think the future holds for nova-kind?"

"Recognition that Terats were right all along."

"How would you characterize the Zurich Accord vs the philosophy of Teras?"

"Teras good... Zurich Accord baaaaad..."

Not much of a roleplay is it. And that character is going be eaten alive in a place like this. The characterization has to come first. A player can create a nova that believes we're all, nova and baseline, in this together and feels a responsibility for collective humanity. But if the player creates a "utopian" instead of a character willing to become a Topian, then they're not prepared for the questions and discussion that are going to come. The question is not so much what any particular character believes but rather why they believe it. What happens if/when they are confronted with proof that they are mistaken? Do they amend their views to include the new information or do they refuse to even acknowledge the existence of the new info.

Who cares who wins the argument? The role play is why we came here.

If you want to talk about Chance's arguments OOC then drop me an email. I don't want to bore the rest of the board waxing philosophic on Fortune's motivations.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

In and out of character, I think that novas aren't human. Having said that, the teragen has, for the most part, missed the boat.

We don't let people run around and kill dogs without good reason. If there were another sentiant humaniod race on this planet, the rules for murder and such would still apply. Our two races are as close as dogs and wolves.

Much of teras doesn't pass the "so what argument". Flaws in the terat philosophy:

1 There simply isn't a good reason to seperate the races. Anyone who understands why it isn't cost effective for Michael Jordan to mow his own lawn understands why.

2 Not having powers doesn't diminish the worth of humans.

3 Losing your humanity doesn't make you a better creature.

4 Baseline humans could be pre-eruption novas. Killing them isn't a good thing.

5 Yes, after such a quantum leap in evolution, many new things will be invented (last time we got technology, economics, etc). But sweaping away the old before we know what will replace it is madness. Many things done/created by/used by baselines will probably make the cut (the institution of marriage, the idea of art, etc).

The irony of this line of thought coming from Dr. Troll, the green combat machine, isn't lost on him. Had he erupted differently, he would have joined PU or gone corporate.

[Sandy Davis]

Well, in the world I normaly play in, there is a groop of novas, a rather large sept.They are like the terats, in the in soome ways..But the whole view is that Do to the powers,of novas,they should not live with baselines. This idea is founde dfrom the facts, that a baseline get in a scuffle with a nova, the baseline is likely to wind up dead.

The group is called Eden, it was founded by a ex meber of utopia and t2m.He left do to conflicks of interrests.. disapeared fromt eh face of the earth..Well to put a long story shor.He came back,and made a deal with U.S. for nova reseach,and utopia...He would get a lot of land in witch he could amke a city..He did so...within weeks, there was acity of novas number in the 30's..and more came.

But the idea was that as i stated before, if a nova get mad at a basseline.It is mostlikely going to wind up bad..As utherwise noted some novas have powers they have no control of..SUch as the ones with maga scoiccal stats.Or any they just losse their tempers..That is why he set up a place where novas could live alone...An self emposed exile of sorts.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:


1 There simply isn't a good reason to seperate the races. Anyone who understands why it isn't cost effective for Michael Jordan to mow his own lawn understands why.
2 Not having powers doesn't diminish the worth of humans.
3 Losing your humanity doesn't make you a better creature.
4 Baseline humans could be pre-eruption novas. Killing them isn't a good thing.
5 Yes, after such a quantum leap in evolution, many new things will be invented (last time we got technology, economics, etc). But sweaping away the old before we know what will replace it is madness. Many things done/created by/used by baselines will probably make the cut (the institution of marriage, the idea of art, etc).

Ok then, by the numbers.

1. Perhaps there is no economic reason. There are some fairly important ones. How about the fact that Novas are usurping popular culture? Popular culture is in many ways the way a society views itself. If Novas are the most popular, admired, and desired individuals, what does that do to the self image of non-novas?

2. Teras does not intrinsicly declare that human beings are worthless. It is stating that Novas are not humans and that they shouldn't treat themselves like humans.

3. No, losing your humanity makes you a different creature. See number 2.

4. Again, Teras does not espouse mass termination of human life. Some individuals declare that belief. We all understand the Islam is not defined by it's fundamentalist terrorist adherents? Same thing.

5. Teras is a revolution of thought, yes there are some aspect about it that are rash. That I cannot deny.

Now, I'm saying this all out of character. Personally, if I was a Nova myself, I doubt I'd be a Terat. I don't know if I'd be comfortable trying to throw out my concepts of beauty, love, and economy. But, I doubt I'd be a Utopian either. The entire Utopian ideal seems Quixotic and/or Orwellian in practice.

[Doutor da Reducao]

These were most interesting observations. If I may be so bold;

1. I would draw your attention to the point that what is worthwhile to you may be anathema to me. I would not wish to bring up red button issues but please think about a real life issues and you can see this.

2. You're right. Like many other issues I wonder if people can truly accept this as the objective fact that it is or if they will defer to their subjective judgments.

3. True but neither does it automatically make you a worse one. The Terats are reaching for something that is unknowable until they get there. While they cannot prove it is a better state, neither is it factually possible to argue the reverse being true. It is unknown and unknowable.

4. I agree.

5. I agree. However I would point out there are those that would argue it is sometimes necessary to destroy what came before in order to proceed onwards. It does not strike me as efficient or a good general principle but it is a valid position.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

I think that what Mal was aiming for is something like "your baseline mentality artifically places limits on your infinite Q power, you need to get rid of the preconcived notions and manipulate Q directly, without the mental cruches and such". Or in other words, thinking like a human limits you to human notions of power, thus you get things like "Power-themes".

He is right. But telling everyone to "stop thinking like a baseline" is much easier said than done. I think that most of us need at least the 80 years that he had, after all, he was a very talented student.

Most of his followers try to rip down their mental inhibitions and end up tearing down the wrong ones. The path of the monster is especially bad here. Getting rid of your inhibitions towards killing so that you might also get rid of your inhibitions towards Q use doesn't strike me as a good idea.

Ideally power would be gained in an evolutionary manner, not a revolutionary manner. Basically Mal took things too far, too fast.

[Sandy Davis]

Well, if the abie war can be blamed on nayone..It is Mal.Like the good docotor said...It is clear both to the players,and to Mal that nova can live for many times longer than baselines.So, what has his knickers in a bunch about rushing these kids threw the ringer?

I think that him and his pall,the guy who could see in the future saw the abbie war,,and Mal, now is set to make sure the novas win.THat is the only reason I can think of pushing so hard.As poeple have stated, it took him around 80 years to achive what he has, let's awesome, that half of it was finding the path he was going to take.That is still forty years to take it, and he has lived a long time so he has saw the world has to offer.Or at least what he thinks it has to offer.To him, he trying to save those it hink he think he as his children, but he is going down the path that leads to whatt he is trying to aviod.

There is a saying, to know what will happen in

the future will not help you change it, if you do not know the cuase of the problem.In other words, those who do not learn from the "past" are doomed to repet it.

But Mal, may have started this, to save what he could,and somehow got lost along the way.Yes, the the taras are more than Mal, but by the t08, if Mal waved his hand the right way, the taras,or at least most of them would gladly kill each other for his favor.

Now saying the last bit, tha tis what set this "faith" apart from other faiths.Imagiene having jesus, not only alive, but preaching to his fallowers that we were the romans, and we should no longer turn our check.I am not saying I am for that son of mary..I am just saying that great leaders, either either en body the people's wants or change the people's wants.

Also the greater the leader is, the more fanitics they will make, no mater what they lead, from, jesus, bhuda, Marx, Hochiman,hitlir,JFK, and many more.It just so hapens is that Mal is pushing for this in his falowers.

[Ashnod]

Well, consider this:

How resistent would Novas and baselines be to the idea of transhumanism if Divis Mal was more like Buddha or Ghandi instead of the "terrible angel" that he is?

For most people in the IC world, transhumanism is ruined by people like Geryon and Lash. It's not about doing what you will because you're above human law, that's unfortunately the side effect of saying it doesn't apply to you because you're not human. If the Teragen WASN'T such a violent movement, and so many of it's members so anti-baseline, I think more of the Novas (and baselines) in the world would be open to its ideas.

It's a good idea with a very BAD rep and even WORSE apples in the bunch, but it's that way for play balancing. Utopia has its darkside, but it's hidden. The Teragen has its lightside, but it's hidden as well. That's why thematically, they are foils for each other.

In my opinion, though, Kirby, I can't see Novas as humans. Were Novas to actually appear in our world, it would terrify the hell out of me. I'd be envious and jealous and scared and quite frankly life would not make much sense any more. A being that can alter quantum energy is STILL a being that can alter quantum energy, no matter how "human" they appear or they think they are.

If I would ERUPT...that's tougher. Recognizing that I would be different is one thing, ACTING upon it is something else. I have a lot of friends that wouldn't erupt in all likelihood, and I don't think I'd be too quick to simply dismiss them.

But it's impossible to know how long I'd be able to hold on to that point-of-view without experiencing it.

[Kirby1024]

Cool, thanks everyone for listening at least. I think at the time I was probably a little down in the dumps, with Exam the following day and all, but I can see where I am now. Good thing is, I have all the time in the world to work on this stuff at the moment.

Although, just one other thing...

,,

Quote:

Ashnod wrote:

In my opinion, though, Kirby, I can't see Novas as humans. Were Novas to actually appear in our world, it would terrify the hell out of me. I'd be envious and jealous and scared and quite frankly life would not make much sense any more. A being that can alter quantum energy is STILL a being that can alter quantum energy, no matter how "human" they appear or they think they are.

Of course, I'd probably be terrified too, but not quite for the same reasons. I'd be terrified because for all their quantum capabilities, They'll still have their human minds, at least for a while. And I know that humans with that much power is not a good thing. I'm not sure if life wouldn't make sense for me anymore, although it would definitely take a detour into the surreal for a few months.,,

Quote:

If I would ERUPT...that's tougher. Recognizing that I would be different is one thing, ACTING upon it is something else. I have a lot of friends that wouldn't erupt in all likelihood, and I don't think I'd be too quick to simply dismiss them.

There is the other thing, that I'm aware that despite the fact that I know that having that much power would change me, I'm still fairly certain it would change me in ways predictable for a human. It would probably change me quite similarily to the way that a massive influx of wealth might change me, in that I would note that I had a large amount of tangible power at my disposal, and that would colour where my decisions lead. I'd note that risks that once prohibited my actions would probably now become acceptable risks, and that maybe I'd find it a little more difficult to find solutions that didn't use what I already had at my disposal.

But you wouldn't say that a person with Wealth beyond Avarice isn't human, and in that same way, I'm not sure that a human with Quantum Powers can be considered automatically non-human. Maybe with time, a person can alter his mindset sufficiently that it could be unrecognisable from a human perspective, but I don't think the point of eruption is the end of your humanity. You can hold on to it, if you know what's happening to you.

[Sandy Davis]

I will try not drag up any old sayings with this shoort post,but to be human is to be diffrent.In life right now, we have people,whose actoins make me wish I was not human.At the same tie, we have those who make thankful,for everybreath I take.

In the scope of what humans are,the mind set or the power the weild dose not inter into it.Hitlir, and Cruchill were human.

I do not say thast if I were become a nova, I would stay the same as I am now.I do say that I stay human, just not the same human.Then again to be human is something that can not be defined in words,reason or logic.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby1024:
Although, just one other thing...

Using real world examples to heighten understanding among players is one thing BUT bringing this discussion out of character to the real world is not a good idea.

The one thing that allows these discussion to proceed with as little animosity as they have is that it is a discussion between fictional beings with absolutely no reality or feelings beyond what we assign them. Picking apart a ficitonal construct's reasoning and arguments are one thing but picking apart Kirby's arguments are another. If we're discussing the meta-plot then there is a reason to do it OOC but otherwise it's only going to cause discontent.

Attacks against a charater's sense of reality are not common and rarely pleasant. Imagine it happening to the player rather than the character. The characters have, or should have, a reason for feeling the way they do and that is what the role play is about. Not one of them are proveably right even if the information of the meta-plot is available.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby1024:
But you wouldn't say that a person with Wealth beyond Avarice isn't human, and in that same way, I'm not sure that a human with Quantum Powers can be considered automatically non-human. Maybe with time, a person can alter his mindset sufficiently that it could be unrecognisable from a human perspective, but I don't think the point of eruption is the end of your humanity. You can hold on to it, if you know what's happening to you.

I don't think you can compare that to say, having the power to manipulate gravity. Human beings are locked into certain perceptions of what they can and cannot achieve. What is possible by acceptable laws of physics and what is not. I don't think you can retain your "human" hold on what is possible anymore, especially once you come to understand, as long lives Novas likely will, that gravity is only the first step and the potential to control the universe itself is there.

For example, if it were possible to gain Universe Creation without being tainted, is that person still human? We're talking about someone who can MAKE life on a cosmic scale at a whim, design it to their every liking. Is it possible to think of yourself in the same way that a species which cannot do this does? While we are talking the high end of the spectrum, this argument holds for the lower manipulative powers as well.

I can see how your point-of-view can hold merit if all you have is a few Mega-Atts and low level quantum powers. I still think it would a stuggle, a major struggle, to continue to think of yourself as the same as those without quantum.

As an aside to this, there's a quote from a MAGE game that I remember on the same scale that was posted on a MUSH board once. A group of players had someone in their group who managed, through an incredible feat of RP, to snag Oracle-level mastery of Forces. During the next game, the Mages were in their chantry discussing their plans when the new Oracle said, completely out of nowhere and irregardless of the rest of the conversation:

Do you know how many electrical storms there are in the world right now? I can feel them. All of them.

The characters AND the players just went quiet. Nobody said anything.

If you are so in tune with THAT much energy over THAT much geography and don't lose your mind, are you really "human" any longer? Mage is of course a vastly different system, but it's hard to wrap your head around what that Oracle's daily thoughts are. Is he also aware of all the electrical energy in a 50 miles radius? The radioactivity from all the electronics? The greenhouse heating from the afternoon sun? Etc. PLUS, he deals with the knowledge that if necessary, he can alter any of it with slightly more than a thought.

On another level, if I had Geisha or Orzaiz's mega-attributes...think of how easily it would be to UNINTENTIONALLY abuse that kind of power. Not meaning to. It just happens that you're very passionate about something and you're not even realizing that you're "manipulating" emotion or attraction. The best example of this is in WWI, during the conversation with Antaeus, where all the baselines in attendance simply start agreeing with the respective mega-social Novas because they are overwhelming by the sheer presence of them. Once you're acclimated to being treated in such a fashion with NO effort on your part (because only enhancements require quantum), I think your identity is going to change sufficiently (and perhaps subconsciously) that you'll understand on a basic level that you're different than these sheep who cater to your every whim.

I dunno. On the flip side, I have yet to hear one argument to convince me that Novas are "human." Nothing has ever been said to me, either ICLy as Ashnod or OOCLy in discussion, to make me think there's any merit to it.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Probably the best argument for novas still being human is Dorm.

The second best is the "the power would change me/them in predictable ways" argument. Someone with lots of Mega-Chr/Manip is going to be effected by that kind of power. But we have seen similar situations, i.e. the very rich/powerful who are surounded by "yes" men.

The funny part of the argument over "are they human" is that I don't think there has ever been a definition of "human". It is one of those "I know it when I see it" definitions. I'm pretty sure that the reason we (as a culture) haven't defined "human" is because pretty near any definition is going to exclude certain people.

[Sandy Davis]

Um I hate to break this to you, you see the computer your using to read this post. 100 years ago, it would have been more than a dream. Let's list some other things that changed the world in ways like that, we have a-tom bombs, planes that go closse to five times the speed of sound, we have way to make ceramics without heat.

The idea that someone has power to do thing that no one else or on levels that one else can dosen't make him any less human.The fact they would be call great, dose not make them less human.Take a look into our history,and see all the great people.See the people who did the things that were not possable.ARe they still human, yes.

As Troll has said, there is not good definition of what itt is to be human.So untill I see one, i still think that novas are human.After you must define what somethign is not, to define what it is.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
Using real world examples to heighten understanding among players is one thing BUT bringing this discussion out of character to the real world is not a good idea.

Probably a good point. But then again, I'm out of the funk I was in a few days ago, so I don't think I'd be too concerned. Also, going OOC does give you access to a lot of arguments that can't be used IC.

And, of course, there's the other point that usually I love these kind of debates. I take no offense from good arguments, as long as the mud-slinging is kept to a minimum.

And as you pointed out, none of us are right. Or all of us are right. Probably both at the same time, but that just lets us keep this in the hypothetical, doesn't it?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis- Miss-Fortune:
Um I hate to break this to you, you see the computer your using to read this post. 100 years ago, it would have been more than a dream. Let's list some other things that changed the world in ways like that, we have a-tom bombs, planes that go closse to five times the speed of sound, we have way to make ceramics without heat.

The idea that someone has power to do thing that no one else or on levels that one else can dosen't make him any less human.The fact they would be call great, dose not make them less human.Take a look into our history,and see all the great people.See the people who did the things that were not possable.ARe they still human, yes.

Not the same argument. The use of tools doesn't change the perception of what is possible for a human to do WITHOUT tools. Mankind has ALWAYS been able to change his lifestyle through simple and complex technologies. THAT has never been in question. I'm talking about what happens when people do the impossible WITHOUT tools.

People believe technology, in whatever form, because it is external of themselves. It is easily explained, can be taken apart, put back together. ANYBODY, properly trained, can use and create technology. Since it generally develops on a very limited timeframe, humanity is accustomed to it.

Putting technology back 100 years ago will make it seem like magic to the natives of that time, yes. There's no argument there. But you need to consider what it seems like to the people of the time it was developed in. To them, it's not miraculous at all.

Mostly, Sandy, you also need to realize that the inventors of this technology knew all along that anyone could use the technology once it was created. It doesn't change them because they aren't changed. Only humanity's tools.

If you develop a quantum ability, you're going to do so with the knowledge that 99% of the population is NEVER going to be able to do this, never have a clue HOW to do it, never UNDERSTAND what it's like to have quantum pulsing through you, and (unless you've got Q8 or Q9) not something that you're every going to be able to share with them.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
If you develop a quantum ability, you're going to do so with the knowledge that 99% of the population is NEVER going to be able to do this, never have a clue HOW to do it, never UNDERSTAND what it's like to have quantum pulsing through you, and (unless you've got Q8 or Q9) not something that you're every going to be able to share with them.

But does a unique perception make you inhuman?

There is a condition (the name escapes me right now), that's quite rare. What it does is effectively rearrange your sensory inputs so that, say, you hear in sights, or you feel in scents. Very few people have this condition, few enough that the 99.99% deal applies. So, they're experiencing something that almost noone in the world will understand, and even more incredibly, even those who have the same condition, only have a form of the condition. They can't know exactly what it's like for another person, even if they have the exact sensory switch.

Are they inhuman? I don't think so. They may be alienated from people unaware of what they experience (which is pretty much everyone), but inhuman?

Yes, a human will undergo changes. Yes, this person is going to feel alienated because of a lack of understanding. It's a natural thing. Power changes people. But we, as humans, can gain a vague insight into how a human might change as a result of say, being given super powers. We may not know exactly, but we can at least plot what might happen. Effectively, change does not a transhuman make.

It's not like at the instant of eruption all predictions of a given person's life cease being relevant. If it was, then it would be bloody hard to play a nova, wouldn't it?

[Wizard]

The condition is called synesthesia and its one that Wizard, the character, experiences as sensory input is brought to her in the form of music.

Wizard's favorite example on the subject of transhumanism is something I plagarized ruthlessly from Dr. Carl Sagan. Imagine a society of 2 dimensional beings which becomes the source of curiosity for 3 dimensional beings. In the midst of their observations one of the 3D beings picks up a single 2D being for examination before returning it. Immediately the other 2D beings ask "What happened", "Where did you go" "What did this"?

How is the poor creature to describe the experience when its very nature denies it the ability to comprehend depth? Its forced to explain simply that it was taken "somewhere else" and then returned. It's not stupid and did sense things with its 2 dimensional senses but having confronted phenomena not only beyond its experience but beyond its abilties to comprehend, it is forced to either admit consternation and confusion or to describe it inadaquately. You may have noticed that this example does not require either group to be "inhuman" yet each group lives in a world that incomprehensible to the other.

Are novas human? Some novas will never seek, may even actively avoid, becoming other than able to fit in with their baseline contemporaries. But as the potential is there, some will seek it while others will find it thrust upon them for whatever reason. As a given nova gradually accumulates experiences which they cannot share easily with baselines their perceptions and thoughts will gradually diverge although as we said some may not experience such circumstances. At some point, and I don't know if it would be a month or a thousand years, a given nova may have so little common ground that by the standards of the baselines that nova is no longer human. Call the state "inhuman" if you want although I think that's begging the question.

There are some whose eruptions probably will take them immediately to a state of existence so alien to that of a baseline that previous predelictions and predictions become meaningless although I would guess that to be a minority. Others will become alienated either by choice or circumstance and they too will diverge. Baseline inability to comprehend an altered state may skew their predictions when the nova feels normal and readily adapts.

Just a thought.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby1024:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
If you develop a quantum ability, you're going to do so with the knowledge that 99% of the population is NEVER going to be able to do this, never have a clue HOW to do it, never UNDERSTAND what it's like to have quantum pulsing through you, and (unless you've got Q8 or Q9) not something that you're every going to be able to share with them.

But does a unique perception make you inhuman?

There is a condition (the name escapes me right now), that's quite rare. What it does is effectively rearrange your sensory inputs so that, say, you hear in sights, or you feel in scents. Very few people have this condition, few enough that the 99.99% deal applies. So, they're experiencing something that almost noone in the world will understand, and even more incredibly, even those who have the same condition, only have a form of the condition. They can't know exactly what it's like for another person, even if they have the exact sensory switch.

Are they inhuman? I don't think so. They may be alienated from people unaware of what they experience (which is pretty much everyone), but inhuman?

Yes, a human will undergo changes. Yes, this person is going to feel alienated because of a lack of understanding. It's a natural thing. Power changes people. But we, as humans, can gain a vague insight into how a human might change as a result of say, being given super powers. We may not know exactly, but we can at least plot what might happen. Effectively, change does not a transhuman make.

It's not like at the instant of eruption all predictions of a given person's life cease being relevant. If it was, then it would be bloody hard to play a nova, wouldn't it?

Heavens no, it's not an instanteously occurance. It takes time as you become accustomed to the changes. And once again, I'd like to stress that the addition of something completely NEW, something that lets you ALTER reality in some fashion, is in my mind not comparable at all to a condition which denies the use of a sense or rewires the senses

[Sandy Davis]

As the threory, everyone one can be trained to use every tool.Not true. Wile just about anyone could learn to use a computer, not everyone can learn how to make them,let alone make one better.

I think of novas as moderen people stuck in say, the times oof the Roman empire.But time frame is not the point.

Now, you say well a computer is just a tool,and I can anwser that in two ways .One ideas have changed the world. They were not called magic but shatered all the old ways.Here are a few off hand"There are no good wars", "We are all equal" , "if one man is a slave, no man is free." those are new ideas that changed the world.And Well,no "tools" were for those .Then we can say the Node is a tool, just like any other.And it takes a gift to use it.Just becuase that tool is born into some dosen't change what it is.A tool.It works within two limits, the mind weilding iit,and the rules of universie.On that mark, I would point that Mages are less human than novas.And I said before,not everyone in the world can use every tool.Yes some people will never beable to fly a shuttle,some people do not have the will power or body to handle that stress.

If I told,that not everyone can build an a-tom bomb, no matter the training or the age witch they start training.Would I be lying?

I will use Ash's own words .."Heavens no, it's not an instanteously occurance. It takes time as you become accustomed to the changes. And once again, I'd like to stress that the addition of something completely NEW, something that lets you ALTER reality in some fashion, is in my mind not comparable at all to a condition which denies the use of a sense or rewires the senses"

These woords say to me that her pooint is not broad nore wholistic.To me she is saying the man who can make fire is in someway,more or less human.Or I should say thhe man who makes new a throery.Is the frist preson to change what we know as real,less human,becuase he sees the world from a new view point?

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

But time frame is not the point.

Actually it is a relevant factor unless we want to politely gloss over the Galileo and Copernicus reactions. I might have other comments for you but that was the only piece I could decipher.

Sorry.

[Kirby1024]

I think that (surprise surprise), we're all on about the same wavelength, just looking at it from different angles. I'm basically saying that the beginning (humanity), leaves it's mark on the destination (transhumanity), while Ashnod seems to be saying an opposite viewpoint (or at least, that's where I think she's going).

I agree with Elizabeth's Interpretation, I think I'm still focusing on time-related issues (ie transhumanity takes time, and in my view, until that point is reached, you're still human). In that manner, I'm not sure I'm going to move from there, and conversely, I doubt Ashnod will either.

We all seem to be at that tenuous point where we all agree in the particulars, but not in the overall. To be honest, I love it when an argument gets to that point.

[Sandy Davis]

Would some define what it means to be human?Honestly. Can anyone of you anwser that one?If you can, then you can anwser what it means not to be human.Untill I know what it means to be human, I say novas are just as human as you or I.

[Fortune's Son]

You can't have it both ways, Sandy. You're more than welcome to have an opinion but recognize it is a subjective opinion versus an objective fact. It's no more profound than asserting that blue is a better color than orange.

[Hugin]

But Jack, really now, we all do accept that orange sucks, don't we?

[Fortune's Son]

Only once they started describing shades of it as "burnt" or "tangerine" and (god forbid) "Malay".

Before that it was a perfectly good color minding its own business.

[Sandy Davis]

One,in all the posts ooc I have stated that novas are human.Unless you are refering to my bit about mages, witch I say are "less humann" than nova, becuase they do not work within the realms of things real.I Also stated that the terms of it would take me to say novas were not human.. As a fallows, one you must define what is huyman.Two seeing as no human to date has done such, then, a nova is still a humamn, although one with great powers.

[Doutor da Reducao]

And by the same token a gorilla is human. Or a chair. Or a... Surely you "get" the idea at this point. Absence of proof is not in and of itself proof and that same logic is as easily bent to "proving" that novas are not human.

Perhaps it is not fair but fair is a human concept not a law of physics or biology.

[Sandy Davis]

Unlike animals, such as dogs as ,and such.Novas are born to human parents.They for the frist part of there lives, act, think,and do everything like humans.I could point out that not everyone who can become a nova does..Some die and not know about the power they could have had.

So, is being a human, in genes?If so, then novas are human, yes they have an gene code that other humans don't have..But there is a gene that makes people have six finnger.Are they not human?

The proof stands inas I see it.They can do things, witch are "not possable", so they must not be human.They think on a level of thought that no "human" coudl understand.That is like saying that aotistic people , sure are not human, after all they do not see the world in the same way.If nova can transend what it means to be human, then other could surely fall under what it means to be human.

As for my post about Mal, that was somewhat a post for why someone like Mal would do things liek this, not saying he is right.But then again many people are wrong, even with "proof".IT is after all the like that is mostly the truth that hurts the most.It was not a post about wiether or not he trasended humans, but weither or not others, like himself could achive what he did.And why he was rrushing others do so.

[Fortune's Son]

1. The difference between chimpanzee DNA and that of Pauley Shore is less than 3%. Yet that tiny difference gives you Mozart, Michael Angelo and Da Vinci. It also gives you Adolf Hitler, Son of Sam and the Boston Strangler. Guess what the difference percentage is between nova and baseline DNA.

2. You're invoking genetics on something can evolve itself into clay if it chooses? Sydney Holland manifests as light, Graveyard Jill as stone, Dreamwitch as a mental pattern. You don't get to quote just the human-like novas to make your case, you have to cover them all or call them exceptions. And once a third of your cases fall into the exception catagory the argument just doesn't all that strong does it.

3. Pop quiz, Sandy. A severely retarded retarded child is born to parents and has barely the mental capacity of a pets. Later he erupts and has an IQ several orders of magnitude beyond that of the human average. Wht is he and why? Say good-bye to half your arguments unless you want to call him a special case.

4. "Human" is a ego-centric concept at its core and that's why the arguments are weak. Everytime someone tries to extend the definition they wind up with something that can be used to describe a chair and have to resort to saying "but that's not human".

Ms. Fortune let's cut to the chase on this. Humanity is a priviledge accorded by a group of self proclaimed humans. As such they can extend the definition by fiat to cover the retarded boy, an alien race or a chimpanzee at any time they choose and for any reason the society chooses. Furthermore they can withdraw the status accorded at anytime they choose. Reference slaves, american indians, asian citizens at the time of WWII, ect.. ect... ect... ect...

Trying to call a butterfly a catepillar isn't going to cut it. You can draw comparisons, invoke patterns and generally say that whatever they may become they were once very similar that's not the same as being identical identical is it?

You may not like it. You may feel its unfair. Now prove your point of disprove mine but let's leave the quibbling at the door.

[Twist]

As i've had Twist say she doesn't care. If she was to be pressed on the subject she would think a while and say. "It depends on your definition of human because there's more than one."

And seriously there is.

1. Cofertile biological entities -- novas fit this definition.... but the biological method of specification has it's oddities like Coyotes, Wolves and Dogs.

2. Physical entities with a soul. For this definition to fly you need to believe in the soul but it is a definition. And it does fit novas. Of course it also fits 20ft tall methane breathing energy field from the planet yog.

3. Biological human body + human soul - mutally exclusive with point 2. Subject to the same caveats. Scarily I've heard people use this arguement to claim they aren't human in RL. They claim they have the soul of some other conscious species in a human body. O.o;;; However if you believe that different types of being have different souls the answer may well be no in the case of novas.

There are others... but these are harder to define.

The answer to most of those would be no.

Becka

[Fortune's Son]

Amen, Becka.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
Ms. Fortune let's cut to the chase on this. Humanity is a priviledge accorded by a group of self proclaimed humans. As such they can extend the definition by fiat to cover the retarded boy, an alien race or a chimpanzee at any time they choose and for any reason the society chooses. Furthermore they can withdraw the status accorded at anytime they choose. Reference slaves, american indians, asian citizens at the time of WWII, ect.. ect... ect... ect...

That actually works pretty well. Then Aberrant's were human before the war, but not during or after it.

The Teragen are thus human (involentarily so) because individual members of humanity can't say they are not (like that retarded boy you mentioned).

Side notes;
1) Baselines and Novas are still inter-fertile (Anna DeVries & WhatsHisName).
2) It might be possible to claim one third of nova-dom as exceptions and still have a strong argument (since 3000 exceptions out of 5 Billion isn't a high percentage).
3) If you take what nova kind has in common among themselves, you end up with humanity plus a node.

[Sandy Davis]

THe DNA of a nova no more diffrent from a random human, than it froma human to a human.The DNA triger to make a novas, or psi, is about the same size as MS.Is M.J FOxxe not human?ANd as Trll pointed out they can interbread.

As for the term human.You can say that animals have human like tendaies.That is not to say they are human.I could tell you the greek meanies of what it means to human, the Roman, the Jewish,THe Miayiane, some of the Suoix, a few others,and still, not one them is right.I say that untill you show me a nova who acts in way that is not human, I will not say that are anything but humans with powers. Seeing as there have been such a wide range of human, from Hiltlir, to Gohndie.We are left at an inpass.To somethings peopel will never see eye to eye on.

[Fortune's Son]

Ooo, Sandy that's our buzzer but thank you for playing anyway.

Troll, thank you very much. While not everyone likes the implications of the definition, it does cover the bases.

[Sandy Davis]

CHance, do you think you have some right to flame people?DO you think that somehooooow makes up for lack of reason?

WOuld it shock you if I had a faith based system in witch the question "What are humans?And, what does it mean to be human?". I do not think that the powers that novas have make them any less human. I could not tell you why, but that is not the point.

You use the medaphore of a catapeller and butterfly. THat is a flawed medaphore to me.TO me, a better one would to compare a mainframe computer to a presonal PC.They both work on the same level,at the core.Just as Novas an dhumans work on the same level in the base systems.WOuld you call a main frame a PC, no, but they both are computers.

Now , why am I so set in the ideal novas are human?Well, are there motives not human?They have Greed,hate,love,joy,pain,plesure. So, you may say, but they can do things that humans can never dream of..Well, That is not the only point in make a human.Motives also mater, seeing as that I have not seen a nova act in ways, or for reason that are not in the scope of human motives.

Now, here is something I shall be blunt about, Jack, grow up, understand that not everyoen will think the same way as you, and some poeple see the same facts and get deffrent anwsers.Seeing that this about what poeple think,about novas,witch are fake..I really see no reason to call names.Then again pointing out fflaws in others, is offtent a sign that you do not believe in yourself.

[Fortune's Son]

And now that I have some time to kill...

,,

Quote:

David 'Dr. Troll' Smith sez:

That actually works pretty well. Then Aberrant's were human before the war, but not during or after it.

Quite possibly, and with the condition that this is in the view of the baseline societies, but yeah. Thanks Doc. I try.

You have a valid point on the 3000:1,000,000,000 ratio but I'd caution that perspective comes dangerously close to being forced to call all novas exceptions as soon as you run into something that doesn't fit the "norm". Even without getting into all the possible "transcendent" examples there are still novas that really are simply damaged goods, i.e. insane or obessessed even by the standards of other novas. This becomes slippery ground very quickly.

Ending up with humanity plus a node? Umm... maybe. From a meta-perspective looking at the situation from outside? Possibly.

Quote:

Sandy saying she was flamed

I've re-read the posts I put up and made ready to offer an apology but just don't see the flames. It might be a character flaw on my part but on several occassions I've defended your right to an opinion even though I don't feel you've offered supporting evidence for it. No, I won't accept an opinion as objective fact just because you want it to be true but I don't think I've been inflexible even when I thought you were reaching.

Yes, I am impatient with a pattern of lack of evidence and supporting one opinion with another. And yeah, its annoying to put in a great deal of effort trying to decipher your posts, provide a thoughtful response only to be offered another opinion to support the previous and then be told you feel feel your're being "flamed". But that's your perogative and I'm still willing to support your right to an opinion even in this.

Ah, what the heck. Sorry you feel that way and please continue the discussion or not as you see fit. I've offered what few insights I have and made my case as best I am able so there's nothing more for me to say.

Folks its been interesting and thanks for your insights as well as providing feedback on my own. Wish I had more but this is the best I've got on the subject. Peace.