opnet [OpNet] Purpose...

[Chaos]

Since Trooper was grilling me over this last night and I'm posting topics anyway; when do you guys do something without personal gain?

After getting turned down by me for Devries recruitment, Trooper and I got into a little one on one about money. As in when do you put time and energy into something that isn't for your own gain even indirectly. He was having really hard time grasping the idea I work pro bono around my on the clock time. I think it came close to giving the little mercenary a aneurism but I have no reason to lie about why I'm living the life.

Call it the echo of a year as a municipal defender but some things are wrong. When you let it go on then you become part of it. You become responsible for it even in a small way. That's how I see it. So yeah, I've done some work in Tibet. I have a slowly rising bounty on my head with the Chinese. The HTT has tried once to collect and changed their minds afterwards. Or at least I haven't heard from them lately. Still, I wouldn't change a damn thing about what happened in Lhasa. I don't even regret the spooky little punk that probably had to go through a dozen surgeries to put his face back on his skull where it belongs.

Sometimes I work for money. Sometimes I do violent things. That's nothing compared to what I do on my own.

[Ultimax]

...

...

I don't think I've ever done anything for anyone for free.

Boy, I kinda feel like shit now.

[Machina]

Hey, Chaos, while I get where you're driving this idea, aren't you basically just asking people to show up here and crow about their supposed altruism? Aside from the Kid, who stepped out of his mental quagmire long enough to realize that he's a self-centered, egotistical turd, I see this turning into some circle jerk aimed at stroking egos and not doing a whole lot else.

People who do good things without seeking reward don't post on Op forums talking about the good things they've done without seeking reward. Talk about fucking for abstinence.

[Chaos]

First you got to understand where it came from. Me and Trooper talking, with Trooper asking me in a few different ways if I got paid for what I did. This is after he tried recruiting me and I said I don't do it for the money. That one seemed to stump him. Maybe its stumps some other people too.

And in a way I guess I was also asking where the people here are coming from. They ask questions like "who/what are you" when all they really want to know is how I make a buck. Nobody gives a damn that I spent a year as a municipal defender in New York or why I left. They just want to know how many people I've killed or if I know what its like to die.

What the hell. It was a just a question.

[BlackThorn]

There is a girl in my old neighborhood that hangs out at the local grocery. There was this gang that hung out in front of the store. They left me alone, but one of their guys put his hand inside her shirt when she was trying to get home. Normally I don't do this stupid violent shit, but I couldn't sit back and let her be abused like that. I told them to back off, they got in my face, and I had to break a few of them up.

I walked her home that night, and every night since then that I've stopped by the old neighborhood.

I know why she walks with me. She's the oldest and a girl. She's got no one else. Beyond me, she's got nobody and nothing.

I know why they come at me. I cross into their turf, stand up against them no matter what it takes. We both know what that means.

I really don't know why I do it. They are not my people. I don't own her family anything. The store owner knew my father, but they werent' close.

If I didn't do it, the girl would be raped and beaten if she's lucky. Maybe her family would be driven out of their tenanment.

Me, I would rather threaten and kill the SOB's until they learn their lessons and leave the little girl and her family alone.

[Machina]

It doesn't stump me, Chaos, and for what it's worth, I remember when you served as PD for New York, and I thought you were damn fine at it. Still, people who are truly humble about theird deeds, the real altruists, they're not going to show up here to discuss it because they're not seeking reward and they furthermore don't really care if they're understood. They don't do it because they feel a need to be understood or recognized, they just do it and move on with their life. Neil Preston is probably the best man I've ever met, and I bet you a fucking mint he doesn't even show his face here.

It's like the chivalric code; we don't talk about our own great deeds, because it's a betrayal of humility and nobility. Other people, if we've done right by them, will do it for us. Like Neil; best man I ever met, and no better man do I imagine exists. What he's done to help people would make the rest of you fuckups blush at how hollow your life is.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:
when do you guys do something without personal gain?

Nobody does anything that isn't for personal gain. Every act of supposed altruism still benefits the initiator somehow, whether it's genetically, emotionally, physically, financially, etc. Even supposedly altruistic acts (ie, "random acts of kindness") fulfill a desire to feel moral, to feel good about oneself, to feel as though you are upholding the implied social contract.

This isn't meant to disparage altruism, but it's a mistake to ask "why" we do these things. We do them for the same reason we do everything else; it rewards us.

[Neil Preston]

I apologize Machina, but I felt that I had to say something concerning the very nature of altruism here. Otherwise, I would have happily stayed away from this discussion.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

Nobody does anything that isn't for personal gain. Every act of supposed altruism still benefits the initiator somehow, whether it's genetically, emotionally, physically, financially, etc.

Not that every descent act should be forever dissected, but come on... have we become so cynical that we must claim understanding for acts that step beyond another's limited world view.

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

Even supposedly altruistic acts (ie, "random acts of kindness") fulfill a desire to feel moral, to feel good about oneself, to feel as though you are upholding the implied social contract.

And thus I've been hailed as a masochist, a martyr, or a penitant despite the fact that I deplore pain, truly want to live, and have been actually pretty happy with my life growing up.

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

This isn't meant to disparage altruism, but it's a mistake to ask "why" we do these things. We do them for the same reason we do everything else; it rewards us.

Or, perhaps, I live by a code that says harm towards none and aid toward any who want and ask for it because it is the right thing to do.

Is there some moral payback? In a just world, perhaps, but not in the world we currently walk together. The world doesn't run on Guilt-Free. I wish it did, but that would be perpetuating a lie.

I've healed people who have gone on to kill others. I've healed people who were murderered in recovery, never getting that second chance. Life is like that. I've learned to do my best, to keep trying, and to never give up. Its not about winning, its about doing ... and the continuing.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Not that every descent act should be forever dissected, but come on... have we become so cynical that we must claim understanding for acts that step beyond another's limited world view.

I think that my assertion was based off sound logic, msr. Preston. Show me an act of altruism that cannot be traced back to a selfish antecedent, and my argument fails. Until then, I see nothing irrational in what I said. If you feel that's "cynical", I'm sorry, but I simply see it as being realistic. And why should the fact that all deeds are selfish take away from their nobility or magesty? It's a greater understanding of what drives and motivates us that will ultimately prove more rewarding, not baseless appeals to what we wish was so.

Quote:

And thus I've been hailed as a masochist, a martyr, or a penitant despite the fact that I deplore pain, truly want to live, and have been actually pretty happy with my life growing up.

From what little I know of you, Neil, I don't believe you're any of those things. You seem to me to be a genuinely good person who does what he does out of a sincere and very real sense of empathy and kindness for those you share this life with. But do you deny that being that way makes you feel good? If only at the time? Is there not some single, glorious moment, as the quantum pulses through your brain and you regrow a limb or cure a disease or treat an injury that you don't feel enamored of your actions, simply right?

Quote:

Or, perhaps, I live by a code that says harm towards none and aid toward any who want and ask for it because it is the right thing to do.

I am familiar with Hippocrates' magnificent poetry. Tell me, do you still abide by that bit about not performing abortions? What about not removing kidney stones? Do you refuse to teach medicine to others?
In this, I am not trying to demonstrate that your Oath is a sham, merely illustrating that you live how you want to live, oath be damned. Nobody forced you to become a physician, Neil.

Quote:

Is there some moral payback? In a just world, perhaps, but not in the world we currently walk together. The world doesn't run on Guilt-Free. I wish it did, but that would be perpetuating a lie.
I've healed people who have gone on to kill others. I've healed people who were murderered in recovery, never getting that second chance. Life is like that. I've learned to do my best, to keep trying, and to never give up. Its not about winning, its about doing ... and the continuing.

Yes, but as I pointed out above, there is a "moral paycheck" in the immediate, is there not? It feels good to heal, I know it, and no matter what happens afterward, you continue on because you believe that what you're doing is right and good. And it is. But if every wound or infection or disease you took from another was in turn afflicted upon you, would you still be as prolific in dispensing your gifts? Would you be as free, healing all with equal impunity, the orphans and the child murderers alike? I doubt it. You'd be dead in weeks. The act of healing which is so innate to you would carry with it a cost you may not be willing to pay so readily. As it stands now, the victories are enough to keep you going, and I am glad of that, because as I said, I think the work you do is important and good. But be honest; there's always a payoff. Perhaps not after every transaction, but in the long run, what you do makes you happy, and that is why you continue to do it.

[Timeslip]

Regina nailed it. Every action has an angle, even if that angle is only the acquisition of a warm fuzzy feeling... and in truth, very few are limited to those meager wages. Most "pro bono" activity is done with the intent of generating good will, reinforcing one's reputation, or indebting the recipient or an agent of the recipient to the one in some way, regardless of whether one is a baseline or of the One Race. And frankly, it's just as well - enlightened self-interest is an excellent mechanism to promote general well-being at the same time as independent growth.

[Erin 'Stellar' Donovan]

Regina prettu much nailed it for me too. Everything I do that I can really think of is for personal gain. That 'gain' is not always money though.

For example, I do alot of charity work. I do not get paid for it, but I do it for personal gain. It feels good to help other people, bring attention to a subject and so on.

[Mithril]

There is no shame in admitting that an altruistic act also benefits the self. If all involved benefit and nobody is reduced, then it truly is a win-win.

We need more of that.

[Trooper]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:
Since Trooper was grilling me over this last night

Actually, I was just trying to get to know you better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:

and I'm posting topics anyway; when do you guys do something without personal gain?

No one does anything without personal gain. Period.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:

After getting turned down by me for Devries recruitment, Trooper and I got into a little one on one about money. As in when do you put time and energy into something that isn't for your own gain even indirectly. He was having really hard time grasping the idea I work pro bono around my on the clock time.

No, actually I asked when and if you did work for free. You never said yes. You just said that there were jobs you would do for free. I just wanted to know if you were full of hot air or if you really did work for free.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:
I think it came close to giving the little mercenary a aneurism but I have no reason to lie about why I'm living the life.

Aneurism? Only because you wouldn't give a straight answer. What's so hard about saying "Yes, occasionally I work without charging a client."?

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:
Sometimes I work for money. Sometimes I do violent things. That's nothing compared to what I do on my own.

And even here you can't say it straight. Do you do things you want to do for free or do you do things other people ask you to do for free? You may want to do what they are asking, but my question is, are you a one man A-Team and just as bad about asking for money or are you just a solo operator doing your own thing in your down time? There is a big difference.

[Neil Preston]

Actually Regina, I would like to meet and talk with you, as convienent. I certainly feel that we have much to contribute to one another.

[Chaos]

Blackthorn:

You get it. Keep doing it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:

No one does anything without personal gain. Period.

This is where it gets all semantic and philosophy majors with a minor in english spend their days arguing about 'what is gain?' and 'what consistitutes free?'. People can and will do things without desiring a gain. I'm not saying I'm one of them but it happens and sometimes they even kick their ass wondering why they did it. Black and white is kind of a silly way to view of the world isn't it/

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper

No, actually I asked when and if you did work for free.

You didn't actually say that you know. That may have been what you were trying to say but its not what you typed. Yes there are things I do that have nothing to do with contracts, reimbursments, licensing deals or payments. 'When' is when the opportunity presents itself.

Now you have your answer.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:

Aneurism? Only because you wouldn't give a straight answer. What's so hard about saying "Yes, occasionally I work without charging a client."?

Asking a straight question will get you a straight answer. Asking vague questions that I can't quite figure out what you're asking will get you vague answers that don't quite provide the knowledge you wanted. I'm not sure we're on the same page because you're still using words like 'client'.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:

And even here you can't say it straight.

Trooper... Trooper... I'm trying to explain it to you. The problem is we're not even speaking the same language. You want to put in terms of clients, contracts and payment. You can couch it in terms of 'ops' and 'intel'. Sometimes I do the things I see needing to be done. Sometimes there are people that want it done and in one or another its gets to my attention. I am not doing it for them, at least not because they'd like me to do it. Either way I look at a situation and decide to intervene.

There's what I do because it gets me something. That stuff comes through the Jannissaries. I use them. They use me. Then there's what I do. You can look at it however you want.

[Mr Frost]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaos:
... when do you guys do something without personal gain?

When it suits me. Possession of a node is the source of wonder. It should also be a source of caution.

[Origami]

I've never really been interested in personal accolades or acclaim. Although outright charity I have not yet participated in.

Thing is, most of what I make eventually returns to it's normal state. It's what I write or what I teach that lasts. And in today's society, information is more valuable than anything, I hear.

As for the Municipal Defender thing, I'm not sure someone like me could pull off that. This thread has given me pause.

[Good Alice]

And the men of science looked at the beauty. They tried to define it, and failed. They then claimed it was myth.

That being said, yes you can take the cynical point of view that no one does anything without the idea or hope of gaining something. You can take that view. Or you can look out into the world, and do something for others. Because if you don't do it, who will?

[Chiteki Hoshiko]

And somehow, some people fail to see that rationally defining things, cynically or not, does not take away from the wonder or beauty of such things, if anything, it makes them even more amazing. Because isn't it somehow a wonderful device of nature to make a person feel happy for helping another, and so congratulate him, and perpetuate a behavior that benefits the whole of the race?

Doing something that contributes absolutely nothing positive to you, if maybe only a feeling, is either a mistake or a sign of insanity. Humans, and most novas, seek happiness by nature, why would someone pride themselves on doing things that go against that goal?

[Li Ai Jun Yen]

I have known the altruistic urge, to give of one's self until there is nothing left.

I have known the selfish urge, to take for one's self until there is nothing left.

I have known the urge to reject love, to protect one's self against hurt.

I have known the urge to accept love, to make one's self whole again.

At the core of everything lies the self. To deny or embrace it, we must first understand it.

[Good Alice]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chiteki Hoshiko:
And somehow, some people fail to see that rationally defining things, cynically or not, does not take away from the wonder or beauty of such things, if anything, it makes them even more amazing. Because isn't it somehow a wonderful device of nature to make a person feel happy for helping another, and so congratulate him, and perpetuate a behavior that benefits the whole of the race?

Doing something that contributes absolutely nothing positive to you, if maybe only a feeling, is either a mistake or a sign of insanity. Humans, and most novas, seek happiness by nature, why would someone pride themselves on doing things that go against that goal?

Yes, I love going to war torn places, and seeing the people with missing limd.That is what makes me happy. I do not do what I do because I get some metaphysical high. I do not do what I do help myself.I do what I do, because i saw what they world was like before me and i saw that no one else seemed willing to do it. Rather willing or able to do it.

[Li Ai Jun Yen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:

Yes, I love going to war torn places, and seeing the people with missing limd.That is what makes me happy. I do not do what I do because I get some metaphysical high. I do not do what I do help myself.I do what I do, because i saw what they world was like before me and i saw that no one else seemed willing to do it. Rather willing or able to do it.

I am sorry, English is not my first language...

Does this make sense to native English speakers?

[Mr Frost]

Yes it does despite a misspelling here and there or the particularly creative syntax.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeslip:
...enlightened self-interest is an excellent mechanism to promote general well-being at the same time as independent growth.

Quote:

Originally posted by Stellar:
I do not get paid for it, but I do it for personal gain. It feels good to help other people, bring attention to a subject and so on.

Quote:

Originally posted by GMoT:
There is no shame in admitting that an altruistic act also benefits the self. If all involved benefit and nobody is reduced, then it truly is a win-win.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chiteki Hoshiko:
And somehow, some people fail to see that rationally defining things, cynically or not, does not take away from the wonder or beauty of such things, if anything, it makes them even more amazing.

I'm sincerely glad to see so many people in accord on this issue. I had feared that this would be another issue in which I stood relatively alone, but it's good to see so many people here with such a healthy attitude towards altruism. As all of the above so beautifully illustrated, there's nothing wrong with enlightened self-interest. The world could use more of it, and I think that as our understanding of what motivates us increases, we'll see more altruism around. Some may think this disingenuous, as people will be taking advantage of a mechanism that they know benefits them, but as Ti22 observed, if an action benefits all involved, there's no harm done, even if the intent is selfish.

It did not escape my attention that all of the above respondants were women. Permit me the rare use of a 'smiley':

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Actually Regina, I would like to meet and talk with you, as convienent. I certainly feel that we have much to contribute to one another.

I agree, Neil, and I'm still looking forward to our meeting. I'm sorry it's been so long coming.

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
And the men of science looked at the beauty. They tried to define it, and failed. They then claimed it was myth.

I have tried to take you seriously, and failed. Therefore I'm calling you 'benighted imbecile'. Save us all your idiocy and just stop. You do wonderful things for people, fine, good, I'm bloody thrilled. Never open your mouth or use a keyboard again and you'll be a credit to the species.

[Good Alice]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
I have tried to take you seriously, and failed. Therefore I'm calling you 'benighted imbecile'. Save us all your idiocy and just stop. You do wonderful things for people, fine, good, I'm bloody thrilled. Never open your mouth or use a keyboard again and you'll be a credit to the species.

No, you haven't tried to see my point of view. No you haven't tried to see anything you do not want to see. If you can't put numbers, or fit into a chart it can't be real to you. You have used blanketed statement to talk about what I believe by using references to things I do not believe in.

So here woman of science, tell me this. At what point will you explain to me, the rules of conservation of energy are right, and the same time having the rules of quantum physics. You know the whole idea that no new energy is made, yet some things can act without being a reaction to anything else.

Do i think you will answer me, no. I think you are blind zealot who was scorned a child. I think you were raised up to prey to a god who was bound to the device he died on. I think you then took this idea because this religion, and this god is wrong they all must be wrong. You then took a step further and said that if all religions are wrong and said that anything not science is wrong. I do not disagree with science, I just have seen to many things that do not agree with science to say everything in our world is science.

[Chiteki Hoshiko]

Ms. Alice, I am not always in full agreement with Ms. Newcastle's slightly extreme worldview, but I will have to agree with her here, that you are making very little sense. You have given nothing to this discussion but an unprovable statement: that the altruistic acts you engage in do not give you anything positive, and with this you attack scientific sociological and psychological theory, providing no other proof except for an uninformed comment about physics.

And, as a physicist, I am going to have to correct your statement on the proposed contradictions between the laws of thermodynamics and quantum physics. Starting by the fact that quantum physics was barely ever suspected of being "right", as you put it, and there is a good amount of proof going against the second law of thermodynamics being valid, as well, mainly because of the study of many nova powers. Scientific theory is not truth, but that does not discredit science, because scientists are rarely so pretentious as to proclaim they have found the truth. That is mainly in the scope of religion.

I have no doubt you have your own view of how the world works but, although Ms. Newcastle does put it quite crudely, it is impossible to discuss them with you, because you attack logic and reasoned thought, which are the bases for any discussion, and even then, seem to be gravely uninformed.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Okay, back on track.

Yeah, I've done shit for folks just to do shit for folks. I like helping out. It's fun. I guess if you want to get all serious and shit I'm getting something out of it because I feel good, but I really ain't that introspective.

I just figure, if you gots extra and others don't, spread it around. If the extra is time, dough or whatever, it don't matter.

[Mr Frost]

I think its important to recognize the difference between helping someone and giving them something that may not actually help them. You can give a poor man money but have you enriched his life? You can devote yourself to a woman and fulfill her stated desires but is she going to be happier?

I believe its important to uphold ideas and ideals. I also think its important to be ready to account for your actions and to take responsibility.

[Good Alice]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chiteki Hoshiko:
Ms. Alice, I am not always in full agreement with Ms. Newcastle's slightly extreme worldview, but I will have to agree with her here, that you are making very little sense. You have given nothing to this discussion but an unprovable statement: that the altruistic acts you engage in do not give you anything positive, and with this you attack scientific sociological and psychological theory, providing no other proof except for an uninformed comment about physics.

And isn't that the point I am trying to make? Not everything is provable? Not everything fits in a nice box you can categorize, label, shelf and go home. I'll end with a quote you should know.

"The more I learn, the less I know."

[Chiteki Hoshiko]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:
And isn't that the point I am trying to make? Not everything is provable? Not everything fits in a nice box you can categorize, label, shelf and go home. I'll end with a quote you should know.

"The more I learn, the less I know."

Now you're making more sense. Very well, those are your views. You cannot truly enter an argument about them, because due to the nature of the world, nothing can be proved one way or the other. So, if I were you, I wouldn't claim with such belligerent certainty that science is ultimately flawed, with no tangible proof to show. Religions at least present you with their holy books or equivalents.