opnet [OpNet] What's the big deal?

[Soames]

I'm watching N! the other night and a bunch of stiffs are going on about how novas are going to make their own society and shit like that but I don't see it. Lot of talk about greek gods and crap but what the hell did any of those goombahs do when they wasn't screwing around with people. So I hear this talk about how novas ain't human and tomorrows going to be different and it just sounds like more Utopia BS. So what's the big deal? Is this just more pie in the sky or does somebody know something I don't?

[Sakurako Hino]

We should make our own society, but basing it off of greek mythology? Please, children. That was Human fantasy.

We need a society that actually WORKS. And I'll be damned if I EVER wear a toga.

[GDP_ST]

(I'm writing this on the assumption that Tattoo is actually curious, and not being provocative. I'm not writing this to get into an Opnet flame-war, so if anyone has an opposing point of view, keep the rhetoric out if you want a response.)

Firstly, Tattoo, there are Novas, myself included, that don't agree with the Zurich Accord. Science clearly indicates that as soon as a nova erupts, they change on the genetic level. Physically, we only look human at best.

In a philosophical sense, we are other than human also. The concerns of human civilisations are not ours. What do borders or national identity matter to a being that can potentially walk unaided on alien worlds under alien suns? Makes the disputes in Kashmir and Africa seem petty, doesn't it. Which is what they are.

Nova society won't be tied to a stretch of dirt, a flag, and a line drawn on a map. Nova society will be a thing of mind and philosophy, a common ground shared by people who can leave petty concerns like liebensraum, poverty, greed and selfish authority behind.

Now some people reading this are going to point a finger at me and call me anti-human. I'm not. Humans are wonderful creatures, as complex and varied as any living being, including novas. But I no longer consider myself human. I share very few needs with humankind. I don't have to struggle at a mundane job for crusts, or rely on legal systems or governments for my protection. I can decide right and wrong for myself.

Most of all, I'm not afraid all the time. The defining human failing, the thing which leads them to mob-rule, brutality, murder, theft, genocide, and all the things which the REAL anti-humans point to and say "Let's wipe them out.", is fear. Fear of the unknown, or the unknowable. Fear of losing the illusion of control which every human spins around their lives to maintain their sanity. That is why governments scramble to enforce their laws on novas. Without that control, the human collective subconscious feels small and insignificant. Nova's challenge that control, and so we see the Church of Michael Archangel, the Directive, Project Utopia. We get repressive and ridiculous laws passed in supposedly civilised countries. And we are made puppets for the media, being broken down into easily-digested sound bites and stereotypes. Humanity has come up against something it cannot control, and realises this. And in their hearts, they are panicking.

Humanity needs to redefine it's role in existence, just as novakind does. They need to realise that they, and their governments, are not here to be the center of the universe. Maybe then we can co-exist.

Some humans already know this, and pursue an enlightened course. Others shut their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears, and scream "Aberrant! Monster! Freak!", in a vain attempt to exert control over a situation where they have none.

[Tekk One]

I agree with Fuusen, and I for one am willing to do my part in making that happen.

[Soames]

Proc I ain't getting into a nad grab with anybody just to pass the time. I'm wondering what this is really about. I don't care what politiicians say even if they were in Zurich. I don't know a lot about the gene stuff but I do know you probably wouldn't know me for nova most of the time. Maybe there really is something different with me but I know for a fact that when a nova stops the juice they lose the show and drop a couple of rungs back down the ladder to somewhere close to what they started. There may be a lot going on but it can't be in the genes if it can be shut off like a light.

Why this sounds a lot like Utopia BS is because there's assumptions being made and you know what they say about assumptions. Uncle U and the rest of his rat pack thinks there's something wrong with my today and my tomorrow has got to be better. Sounds pretty but I think they got no idea what the hell they're screwing around with. I got no problems with my yesterdays, my today is just fine and I'll take care of my tomorrows. Your talking about flags and dirt but I know lots of peeps that'll never pop a node and never did give a damn about any of that. You say you ain't got much in common and that's fine but its not that way for every one. Sounds like its something your going through not some thing novas are going through.

Your dead right on control. People that got none will do just about anything to feel like they have it when anybody can see they don't. Its not just baseline either. More than a few novas that made that made the same mistake.

[kestrel404]

Humans are not the only ones that fear, Procyon. Novas also hold fear in their hearts, and act upon it. As you said, that is why there are those among us that wish to see baseline humanity wiped out or controlled.

Tattoo: People who speak of a nova society, and talk about what it will look like, have no idea what they're saying. When novas do finally come together to form a society, completely independent from humanity (it will happen eventually, if our species survives), it will be so different from everything that's come before that considdering what it might be is roughly as effective as arguing which 1980s science fiction novel was closest to being right. None of them even come close.

But that's not saying it's pointless to discuss it. Coming up with possible models of how we can interact as a society can have some strong positive aspects to it. In fact, that's how the Windy City Knights was formed - it was originally proposed as a reality TV show, right here on these boards. I'm not saying that it's been the penultimate success in nova interactions...actually, it's had limited benefit for Chicago and only slightly better success in the rest of it's territory thus far. But it's unlike any other nova group out there, and eventually we'll get it right.

Back to your originally comment, trying to equate a future nova society to greek mythology is pointless and assinine. If you want to reasonably try to predict the future, look at the present, not several millenia in the past.

[GDP_ST]

Tattoo: You are right about assumptions. And you are right about "Uncle U". For anyone to decide what is best for someone else is to deny that person the right to decide for themselves. Unless said person is an infant or otherwise incapable of deciding, that is a crime against their person.

You're also right about the flags and dirt. Before I erupted, I felt the same way I do now, only now I have the power to ignore such restrictions.

You aren't right about the change being all in the juice. Even when a Nova dorm's down, or loses all their reserves of energy, they are still a nova at the genetic level. They still have a node, even if it is dormant. They still have a greater-than baseline immune system and lifespan. And running out of juice doesn't drop a nova down a couple of rungs any more than low blood sugar turns a human into a caveman.

When I use myself to highlight the differences between nova and human, I use the frame of reference I am most familiar with after 18 years of being a nova. Newly-erupted novas may not notice much difference between themselves and humans, but as time goes on, the differences will become evident.

To Alchemist and Tattoo: You are both right about novas feeling fear and having the need to exert control. My personal philosophy is that such novas are still reacting and thinking like baselines, despite all the potential they now have. Even in the Teragen, there are novas who see things in very baseline terms, for all of their power and intelligence. It saddens me. Notice I differentiate the term baseline from the term human. The key part of baseline is BASE.

It is the baseline that cowers in the cave and destroys the outsider. It is the human that steps into the darkness to see what is out there.

[kestrel404]

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh in my initial comments on the predictions of nova society. I caught a re-run of the same group of idiots Tattoo mentioned, and it put me in a foul mood.

Regardless, though, I must disagree with you about fear, Procyon, as well as your uses of the term 'human' and 'baseline'. 'Human' may be stretched to mean both of our species, and in fact there are several derivative words, like humane, that are used to highlight positive traits in someone. But to then call someone with a limited viewpoint 'baseline' is to do an injustice to the majority of humanity. It leaves no term for the enlightened man who is not a nova. If you wish to point out that someone's viewpoint is unchanged from their pre-erruption days, the term 'limited' should suffice. I make this point only because discussions on these forums so often devolve into arguments of semantics that it's best to get it out of the way in advance, rather than argue around it for long periods of time.

As for fear. Fear is a vital and useful emotion, necessary for mankind's and novakind's survival. It is only when one cannot think around fear, cannot act in spite of fear, that it becomes an issue. To live without fear is to live without thought for the future.

[Ultimax]

Hmmmm.

Not interested.

I like being a nova around humans. It's nice. I like the awe, the interest. I like being different.

[Wakinyan]

There is no need to seperate ourselves. We live among the other living creatures of this planet. Humans belong within that circle as well. They simply need to understand our role as well as there own. Apparently we need to do the same but we are young and have time.

[Arcangel]

Could novas form a society of their own? Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I think that, as opinionated as we are, we'd all end up arguing about what kind of society is best. And anyway, why be separate? hasn't mankind found great progress and happiness in the mixing of different peoples and cultures? Sure, there's conflict, as well, but conflict can be resolved, and we stand to lose much by isolating ourselves. After all, a normal human can be a friend, a colleague, a lover, part of your family. Why lose all that by going it alone?

[Ultimax]

You know something? I think we could now that I think about it.

In the XWF we beat the ever loving shit out of each other on a semi-regular basis, but there are folks I know who are right cool with each other even though they've gone toe-to-toe the night before.

Hell, once he healed up El Hombre Supremo came up to me and shook my hand. How fucking classy is that?

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultimax:
I like being a nova around humans. It's nice. I like the awe, the interest. I like being different.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wakinyan:
There is no need to seperate ourselves. We live among the other living creatures of this planet. Humans belong within that circle as well. They simply need to understand our role as well as there own. Apparently we need to do the same but we are young and have time.

My concern is that our presence will hold baselines back from reaching their own potential. Our inventions could make it less necessary for baselines to innovate on their own or our socialization and diplomacy skills could end any conflict without baselines learning how to solve their own problems.

[Arcangel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Singularity:
My concern is that our presence will hold baselines back from reaching their own potential. Our inventions could make it less necessary for baselines to innovate on their own or our socialization and diplomacy skills could end any conflict without baselines learning how to solve their own problems.

But won't mankind be happier if they do not have to solve their own big problems? They've been delegating that task to figures of power for all known history, the only difference now is that novas are actually more capable of solving them. Normal humans may not develop the same way as if they were devoid of novas, but I don't think our presence will make it worse. On the contrary, we are accelerating their development, giving them new tools to innovate with. We are making the whole, the society integrated by both novas and non-novas, to develop faster than if they were separate, and both parties are benefited by the arrangement.

[Soames]

Quote:

Originally posted by Singularity:
My concern is that our presence will hold baselines back from reaching their own potential.

What if its already happened. Sounds like novas saying humans hit the wall and what comes next comes from novas.

I still don't see the nova super people.

[Timeslip]

Tattoo, the "nova super people" are all around you. Mind you, after eighteen years of innoculation and saturation, you may not really notice anymore, but gods walk the earth.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Arcangel:
Normal humans may not develop the same way as if they were devoid of novas, but I don't think our presence will make it worse. On the contrary, we are accelerating their development, giving them new tools to innovate with. We are making the whole, the society integrated by both novas and non-novas, to develop faster than if they were separate, and both parties are benefited by the arrangement.

I understand what you describle and I hope that sort of ideal could be reached, but sometimes ideals don't work on a large scale.

For an example of what concerns me and something from which analogies can be drawn, consider how major military operations have changed since novas appeared. Were it not for a general sense of distrust for novas at some levels of power, it seems rather self evident that military forces would consist of a small number of novas and their baselines support personnel instead of armies ranging in the order of hundreds of thousands of baseline soldiers. More simply, novas would bear the vast majority of the combat responsibility which could leave baselines defenseless if their nova soldiers disappeared.

[Soames]

Quote:

Originally posted by Timeslip:
Tattoo, the "nova super people" are all around you.

I see everything from the sort of dangerous to the stomping WeeGees. And even they go from slightly cracked to out of their skulls. But gods I don't see. Maybe its because I got not much going on with the WeeGees. Nothing more useless than trying to do a little business with people like that. One minute you're trying to make a deal and then next minute the stupid fucker decides making all the trees in Central Park march for gay rights is a good idea. Sure its funny the first time but after you get burned once or twice you start to get a little perspective going.

I've met a few novas up and down the line and I'll tell what I see. I see either some people just trying to get by getting by or I see out of their mind freaks. Maybe I keep the wrong company.

[Arcangel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Singularity:
I understand what you describle and I hope that sort of ideal could be reached, but sometimes ideals don't work on a large scale.

For an example of what concerns me and something from which analogies can be drawn, consider how major military operations have changed since novas appeared. Were it not for a general sense of distrust for novas at some levels of power, it seems rather self evident that military forces would consist of a small number of novas and their baselines support personnel instead of armies ranging in the order of hundreds of thousands of baseline soldiers. More simply, novas would bear the vast majority of the combat responsibility which could leave baselines defenseless if their nova soldiers disappeared.

That is a strange example you put there. Apart from the fact that not having thousands of baselines dying in wars is definitely a good thing, even though it'd be better not to have wars at all, what exactly is your worry? That baselines will not be able to defend themselves if novas disappear? Isn't that a bit of a strange situation to be basing plans on, why would novas (in general or any specific nova) suddenly disappear?

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Arcangel:
That is a strange example you put there. Apart from the fact that not having thousands of baselines dying in wars is definitely a good thing, even though it'd be better not to have wars at all, what exactly is your worry? That baselines will not be able to defend themselves if novas disappear?

I think a more disturbing and relevant (to the discussion) fear is what if, one day, the only remaining novas were hostile to baselines. What then?

[GDP_ST]

Whilst some of us might choose to help baselines with their messes, we should not be expected to, simply because we have nodes. That is, in essence, discrimination. That fact that baseline governments and Utopia try to recruit impressionable novas into their stables is little short of brainwashing.

Sooner or later, novas are going to wake up and realise that we don't need human approval to live our lives as we see fit. At that point, humanity will throw its collective toys out of the pram and scream.

[Soames]

Whilst? What the hell does "whilst" mean?

[Ptesan-Wi]

It's a largely British variant on "while".

[Soames]

So Proc's a limey? Didn't know that.

[Ultimax]

Quote:

Originally posted by Singularity:

Quote:

Originally posted by Arcangel:
That is a strange example you put there. Apart from the fact that not having thousands of baselines dying in wars is definitely a good thing, even though it'd be better not to have wars at all, what exactly is your worry? That baselines will not be able to defend themselves if novas disappear?

I think a more disturbing and relevant (to the discussion) fear is what if, one day, the only remaining novas were hostile to baselines. What then?

Shit, then I'm out of a job, that's what then. Damn that would suck.

I have only met about a dozen novas in real life so far and I work with all of them. But I've met hundreds of baselines.

That would suck.

What is with all the heavy chatter here lately? Can't we just be happy and grateful we have what we have? Our dreams have come true! Appreciate teh massive gift that we've received!

Because I know I'm just too fucking righteous to be down in the mouth.

[Soames]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultimax:
What is with all the heavy chatter here lately? Can't we just be happy and grateful we have what we have? Our dreams have come true! Appreciate the massive gift that we've received!

Maybe some bright boy with degrees on the wall has a name for it that's harder to say than a polacks mother's name but I call it stick up the ass disease. You got to hang out in chat some time. Lots of peeps post like they got the stick but in chat their okay. A couple of them are even funny. Except for that fuckwit Revenant.

Nice match with the mitoid. Core's still going to bone your skinny ass.

[Ultimax]

Hey, you just shout and point at planes, okay you shin-humper? El Hombre Supremo is NOT a Mitoid. I fight the big boys. And Core is going DOWN!!

[Soames]

Five years ago he was a big boy. Now he's a pansy with pop.

I'll mention this to Core when he stops for dinner at the restaurant. Has he ever heard of you or do I got to explain who you are?

[Origami]

There are a few things that make me curious.

If the only forms of government that we know of are ones of Human concept, then Nova society will be flawed just by adopting those aspects.

Either a society needs to be developed for Nova concerns and only Nova concerns or it would be more efficient to self-govern. After all, some Novas are as powerful as an entire army, thus able to enforce in kind their own law.

All in all, what I am trying to get at in this missive is that Novakind and Humankind is incapable of living together without conflict. So, Novakind must create a society with the eventual goal to leave Earth.

[Soames]

Quote:

Originally posted by Origami:
So, Novakind must create a society with the eventual goal to leave Earth.

Why?

[Origami]

Quote:

Originally posted by 'The Tattoo' Soames:

Quote:

Originally posted by Origami:
So, Novakind must create a society with the eventual goal to leave Earth.

Why?

The thought of the genocide that would happen if we did not do so.

Then again, I am only voicing my fears on the issue.

I'm sorry. Sometimes I am known to swing to the extremes of optimist and pessimist.

[Tekk One]

No I don't think that Novakind needs to leave earth in order to coexist with humans, we as Nova's need to be more assertive in creating our own society. It seems to me that if enough our kind take an interest in this idea, our society will begin to prosper

[Origami]

True.

Just from what I have seen in the news, it seems Novakind doesn't get along without some sort of conflict.

Yes, I know of the fact that any society has it's internal and external conflicts. But with Novas it's magnified.

If we can agree on something, what sort of society will we look for? What sort of government will we use to enforce our law? How will we properly defend ourselves?

These sorts of things; civlization building, take time. Mind you when I say time, I mean Hundreds of years.

[Soames]

Sorry peeps. A war is one way to go but the other way may not be different just quieter. Let me tell you something. A couple of years back I was living in this nice little place out in the burbs. Pretty. Pretty quiet. And pretty frigging boring. I tried it anyway just to see how the other half lives. So anyway I'm doing the yard thing and this yard was crap with a capital "C" from the day I moved in. Really shitty. So I bought this strain of grass they use on golf courses. Don't need water, you only have to cut it about three times a year and it stays green until it snows. The best part is you don't even have to pull weeds. The stuff is called Zoysia. I did my thing and the yard was frigging wonderful in just a couple of months. Then I figured why you don't have to weed. The stuff squeezes everything else out. Weeds, flowers, other grass. I dumped the house for reasons but I'll tell you the last time I went out there that fucking grass is still spreading all through the neighborhood.

The problem isn't anybody wanting a war. The problem is we're the new strain of grass and there's only so much ground and sun to go around.

[GDP_ST]

Spot on, Tattoo. That is exactly the situation.

[Soames]

Yeah. I got a way with the words.

[Tommy Tomorrow]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tattoo:
So what's the big deal? Is this just more pie in the sky or does somebody know something I don't?

Soames, what you have to understand is homo sapiens novus is a relatively new species of life. While I believe examples of the species has been around much longer in human history than some are willing to credit, DNA forensics tentatively supports that belief along with probability analysis, what is definitly true is we are the offspring of baseline humanity. We were born of humanity, grew surrounded by humanity and then in a stark moment of realization diverged from baseline humanity.

Now, and this comes down to personal beliefs, we're searching for our place in the world. From the various comments you've made you seem satisfied to be part of humanity yet possess whatever abilities you do as a nova. Others novas are not so accepting of that view. And that's why you'll hear incredible statements of what it means to be a nova. They aren't for the species, rather they are speaking of their beliefs of the species and therefore their own place.

[Typhoon]

Okay, how about this compromise:

All novas considering themselves "homo sapiens novus" get on that spaceship and GTFO, and those of us that consider ourselves human can stay here. Because quite frankly I'm tired of seeing the Terat rhetoric every time I log on, particularly from those who don't want to hear the other side for fear of getting into a flame war. (Proycon, I'm looking in your direction...)

If you do a Opnet search for the words "Null Manifesto" vs. "Zurich Accord" you'll see what I mean.

And as far as the baselines screaming "Abberant!!, Monster!!, Freak!!" I think you're putting the cart before the horse on that one, I don't think we'd be in that particular situation as badly if your friends in the Terragen wern't acting like terrorists, rapists, and child molesters. I'm making the assuption here that some of them arn't actually.

[Satyr]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soames:
I'm watching N! the other night and a bunch of stiffs are going on about how novas are going to make their own society and shit like that but I don't see it. Lot of talk about greek gods and crap but what the hell did any of those goombahs do when they wasn't screwing around with people. So I hear this talk about how novas ain't human and tomorrows going to be different and it just sounds like more Utopia BS. So what's the big deal? Is this just more pie in the sky or does somebody know something I don't?

This be a great idea!! but, hear me out... we go Celtic gods, and I declare myself Lord of the Tuatha De Danan. You can all have a place in me court.

Och, I'm joking, I'd get homesick.

[Sakurako Hino]

Celtic? And what of the Kami? Are we chopped liver?