opnet [OpNet] What are or is the thing(s) the teragen stand for?

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Okay, Troll, I think I finally got it. The light bulb done flashed and The Chillmeister, Frozen Scion of Cooltopia has had the flash of understanding.

We do not all share infinite potential. Novas are different not because of self-image or subconscious. Nova A is gonna become Divas Mall while Nova B is going to be Edison.

And why?

Because you're a fucking self-hating, gutless, pussy.

We can't have infinite potential because if we do, if we all can become what we want so long as we try, then that means you're a failure. You're an aberrated ragemonster with a hard-on not because the fates decided that ass raping you on your node-pop birthday was a good idea but because you had some flaw in your fucking self-image or imagination that turned you into someone that can't control himself. Ashnod is wrong because if she was right she became the right bad ass goddess of the Teragen because she's got her shit together and you became a whiny bitch of a scientist that's afraid of life every day and it's all your fault deep down.

You don't believe because you can't believe.

Preston thinks I'm full of shit but when he slings it I don't hear the fear and the loose bowel pussy behind the argument. I hear some fucking morals and some fire and brimstone. I still think he's fucking nuts but it's the fucking nuts I can respect. Same with Tarot, same with Jager, same with Saimhe, same with most of the other people here that are the opposite side of the fence to me and mine. I think they're wrong and I hope their asses will get in line with reality and quick before the monkeys do the do on them, but I gotta give props to how they say what they say.

You though? Man, you're as thin as air and as solid as fog. You got nothing but terror and a need for self-nullification driving you on.

[Walker]

For the record:-

Hope Troll don't mind me saying this but he saved my life once by pulling me from a collapsing building. Sure one of his clones had caused the building to collapse but that's not the issue. He put his real self on the line for little old me. I'd been stunned by some sort of weird mental thingy and, as luck would have it, at the precise second I needed to re-juice my forcefield. If it hadn't been for Troll I might not be sitting here today tapping at my keyboard annoying everyone.

18 months ago I would probably be arguing along pretty similar lines with regard to fulfilling potential. The irony of this is not lost on me. In an ideal world it wouldn't matter one jot if a Nova took one year, 10 years or 100 years before they came round to the Terat way of thinking passes bucket to Preston. What difference could that length of time possibly mean to a potentially immortal Nova? The above would be ideal. However I agree with Lemmy. Provided the Baselines can be persuaded to give us this long. Alas not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to duck out of trouble to a celestial body of their choice. And of course, provided that a Nova's taint didn't get the better of them while they were making up their mind nods to Ashnod. Taint can be dangerous but crossing a busy road can be also. Such is life.

At the risk of further encouraging Dreamer I will also state that where possible and provided it will not conflict with Teragen aims I am perfectly willing to aid a Nova regardless of with whom the choose to associate.

[Jager]

Long post by Tarot ... insightful.

In defense of Dr. Troll, I will remind the other posters that he is espousing the widest held belief about taint, aberrations, and the nature of quantum expressions (that if you push too hard, too fast, you will become aberrated).

A point on highly aberrated novas:

Were else can they go, but the Teragen? Due to the debilitating effects of Aberrancy Syndrome (how high-taint novas weird out baselines), were besides an all-nova community can they hope to go and live any semblance of a normal life?

I don't feel they go to the Teragen for the right reasons (seeking to understand Teras), but it is hardly the worst option for them. Nor is it the worst thing for the Teragen to provide succor for those outcast and rejected by normal society.

[Simon Whitechapel]

SO just what exactly is an aberration then? I mean look at Totem; Most people would say he's cearly suffering from aberrant syndrome but why? Because he doesn't look Human anymore? Are his wings an aberration or simply a convient focus for his ability to fly? What about his chameleon-like pelt? Aberration or Quantum Ability?

If "Aberrancy" is based soley on appearance isn't that a little, well, racist?

[Neil Preston]

Good question, so I'm taking it to another thread.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Tarot: Within the imagination of a child they are 100-feet tall, move with grace of a ballerina or acrobat, race beams of light and are as strong as they need to be to right the wrongs of the world with or without feeling the need to shout "Troll SMASH!" It is not a limitation that the child will not grow up to stand 7-feet or play some silly little game as well as anyone before them did.

Agreed.

Tarot: Eistein didn't possess greater insight because he had an extra wrinkle in his skull. ...

Are you claiming Einstein wasn’t unusual? That he didn’t have different potential than most people? That anyone could have done what he did? Without quantum help?

Tarot: Players: Billy, an idealistic 8-year old. Doctor Troll, a genius nova doing a public appearance.

Now you are not only misrepresenting my arguments, but having me attack children as well. How dare I do such things? Oh, wait, that’s you isn’t it? I could reverse the image by having you with your “infinite potential” argument toss children off of buildings, but I won’t because I don’t know if you could or would do such a thing.

For the record, we don’t know which children have what potential. For all we know, a particular child might be the next Jordan, Einstein, or Dr. Troll. Over an entire population, it’s likely some of them will. Further, it is a good thing for children to try to do such things. But as I said earlier (and that was me saying it rather than you misrepresenting me), Unknown potential isn’t the same as infinite potential.

Further, Ashnod has claimed on several occasions that she can tell who can erupt and who can’t. Your little skit would work better with her realizing that the kid would never erupt. I don’t know what she would do at that point, whether she’d tell him or not tell him, but you could make something up.

Ashnod: I have never seen a case of Taint that is entirely centered in the node. In fact, I have not seen any evidence of this at all. As someone who is temporally aware of every biological aspect of her life, I can say with utter confidence that my node is not damaged or changed in any sense, nor is its functioning impaired or lessened since the advent of my current physical appearance.

Whatever is going on isn’t on a gross physical level and isn’t what is traditionally thought of as “damage”. If you turn off your node, your aberrations go away. That right there says there is interplay between taint, nodes, and aberrations. Our nodes are the seat of our powers. Aberrations are strongly related to our powers. There is evidence our nodes are the seat of our aberrations.

MRIs show there is a wide range of size when it comes to nodes. Some people’s nodes are the size of a peanut. Other’s are more like a softball. Given the node’s location in the brain, we would expect to see some damage and/or reduced functioning in novas who have the larger nodes. And in fact, we do. Further, the damage to the brain doesn’t manifest as is normal in baselines. Certain Mega-Int novas appear able to compensate for this, but there definitely is a correlation between the size of your node and the level of your “taint”.

Ashnod: What part of embracing Taint do you not grasp? What part of embracing change do you not grasp? You cannot understand this as you see aberration as an always negative, never beneficial, facet of nova life.

It is one thing to say, “Because we have glowing eyes, we are going to claim that glowing eyes are beautiful”, it is something else to say “and everyone should engage in behavior that causes them to get glowing eyes as well”.

Ashnod: Sloppy Joe erupted into the state you are referring to. It was not Teras that did that to him. You blame us for his condition?

Him specifically? No. But what was Geryon like before he became a Terat? Between your talk of “embracing” aberrations, and the various Terats who have exploded with aberrations, I do have to wonder how many “Joes” the Teragen has created as opposed to adopting.

Walker: Hope Troll don't mind me saying this but he saved my life once by pulling me from a collapsing building. Sure one of his clones had caused the building to collapse but that's not the issue. He put his real self on the line for little old me. I'd been stunned by some sort of weird mental thingy …

Glad to be of service. Again, my apologies on behalf of my other Troll. He didn’t know you were around and was dealing with his own weirdness. Dropping the building seemed like a good idea at the time.

Walker:… provided that a Nova's taint didn't get the better of them while they were making up their mind nods to Ashnod. Taint can be dangerous but crossing a busy road can be also. Such is life.

Look both ways before doing it.

Walker: …if a Nova took one year, 10 years or 100 years… What difference could that length of time possibly mean to a potentially immortal Nova? …Provided the Baselines can be persuaded to give us this long.

:Sigh: I have hope we can live together. Tragic if we can’t. Shameful to work against it.

Jager: A point on highly aberrated novas: Were else can they go, but the Teragen? … Nor is it the worst thing for the Teragen to provide succor for those outcast and rejected by normal society.

This argues the causal relationship between aberrations and Teragen is Ab => Teragen. What concerns me is there is evidence the reverse is also true.

Lemmy Chillmeister: We can't have infinite potential because if we do, if we all can become what we want so long as we try, then that means you're a failure.

LC, lots of Doctors used to smoke. That shouldn’t (and for the most part didn’t) prevent them from screaming “public health crisis”. Saying such didn’t make them popular with smokers, and I don’t expect it to endear me to you.

But Terats appear to get more taint & aberrations than the rest of us.

Right now, prevention is the only cure.

Consider yourself warned.

[Jager]

Nice response, Dr. Troll.

[Ashnod]

Dr. Smith:

Whatever is going on isn’t on a gross physical level and isn’t what is traditionally thought of as “damage”. If you turn off your node, your aberrations go away. That right there says there is interplay between taint, nodes, and aberrations. Our nodes are the seat of our powers. Aberrations are strongly related to our powers. There is evidence our nodes are the seat of our aberrations.

Or, as the node is the focus for the body's control of quantum, once it is shut down, the aberrations which are originated from quantum cease having something to fuel them.

This does not in anyway prove that the node is damaged by taint.

MRIs show there is a wide range of size when it comes to nodes. Some people’s nodes are the size of a peanut. Other’s are more like a softball. Given the node’s location in the brain, we would expect to see some damage and/or reduced functioning in novas who have the larger nodes. And in fact, we do. Further, the damage to the brain doesn’t manifest as is normal in baselines. Certain Mega-Int novas appear able to compensate for this, but there definitely is a correlation between the size of your node and the level of your “taint”.

Different comparison there. Yes, the size on one's node impacts brain functioning if the anatomy does not react to compensate for the pressure of the larger structure within the brain cavity. Yes, a larger node allows a nova to seemingly process more significant quantities of energy, making them more suspectible to the possibility of Taint.

This is not the same thing as Taint being directly responsible for damage to the node, or that merely being Tainted affects the node at all. This research is far from conclusive and far from convincing.

It is one thing to say, “Because we have glowing eyes, we are going to claim that glowing eyes are beautiful”, it is something else to say “and everyone should engage in behavior that causes them to get glowing eyes as well”.

Tit for tat. It is one thing to say that glowing eyes are bad because they indicate a growth in quantum expression, therefore the nova in question is becoming further removed from what we call human. By your reasoning, you can follow that statement with all growth in quantum expression is bad, as it leads one away from humanity.

If you cannot understand this, Dr. Smith, it is simply because again, your paradigm does not allow for this behavior to be anything more than negative. Terats seemingly have more aberration than non-Terats because we do not fear it. We will push our limits the scope of our power with less fear than the normal nova. We will walk the path that leads to a Chrysalis transformation and through that, become physically changed by it.

Using the comparisons of liver disease and alcoholism is terrible science, Doctor. As you already should be well aware, some in the Teragen were at one time considered brilliant scientists and scholars in the medical field, and their work and research into the fields of Taint and aberration would effectively negate everything you have said here.

Making the argument that their research is biased due to their affiliation and desires leads the same questions to be directed at your own research and theory.

Him specifically? No. But what was Geryon like before he became a Terat? Between your talk of “embracing” aberrations, and the various Terats who have exploded with aberrations, I do have to wonder how many “Joes” the Teragen has created as opposed to adopting.

Your words imply that someone has joined the Teragen, been transformed by Teras, and regretted the transformation.

I do not believe this has happened, Dr. Smith. Those that follow our path know that change awaits them, and embrace the possiblity. Does Geryon regret what he has become? Apep regret her transformation? Mal or I regret ours?

No.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Agreed.

About time. I thought you were suppose to be smart.

Quote:

Are you claiming Einstein wasn’t unusual?

I don't view life like some twisted post-quantum metropolis merit system, no.

Quote:

Now you are not only misrepresenting my arguments, but having me attack children as well.

Taking silly arguments to the logic end isn't misrepresenting.

You're really into this. You're really into dissecting someone else's religion just ebcause it happens to hit a sore spot with you peronally. Well stand in line with the rest. Why this is important to you, I don't know and don't even care. In the beginning I saw you beating yourself up and thought you might benefit from a different perspective on your life. Nice thought but it seems you're just as committed to that crusade as the religious one. Okay. Personal problem. Your personal problem.

Leave the kids and their potential out of it or you're going to have another problem.

Quote:

Further, Ashnod has claimed on several occasions that she can tell who can erupt and who can’t.

In what words is it most likely to penetrate your skull rock that I...

[size:4]Do NOT...

[size:5]Care about you OR...

[size:6]Your Bullshit!

Not at this point. Not anymore. I don't care your hard-on for Ashnod and all the other trivial nitpicking shit you spend your days on. I do not care that Ashnod draws a line in her mind and puts all novas on one side and all baselines on the other. I don't give a fuck that both of you set arbitrary criteria and act like its universal law. I feel sorry for both of you but that's about it. The one cool thing about her is she doesn't go out of her way to limit children in order to 'prove' her points.

You don't want to see anything but your own view. Enjoy your life. ood luck with the freak of nature.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: This does not in anyway prove that the node is damaged by taint.

As I’m sure you are aware, “prove” is a big word. You are right, right it doesn’t “prove” anything, but it is suggestive.

Ashnod: Different comparison there. Yes, the size on one's node impacts brain functioning if the anatomy does not react to compensate for the pressure of the larger structure within the brain cavity. Yes, a larger node allows a nova to seemingly process more significant quantities of energy, making them more susceptible to the possibility of Taint.

This is not the same thing as Taint being directly responsible for damage to the node, or that merely being Tainted affects the node at all. This research is far from conclusive and far from convincing.

Yes, and no. As you point out, the implication is the node causes damage to the surrounding brain tissue. The problem with this conclusion is this type of “taint” or “aberration” also fades if the subject shuts down their node.

Ashnod: It is one thing to say that glowing eyes are bad because they indicate a growth in quantum expression, therefore the nova in question is becoming further removed from what we call human. By your reasoning, you can follow that statement with all growth in quantum expression is bad, as it leads one away from humanity.

I didn’t say that. Learning new things is good. Brain damage is bad. You don’t have to have both.

Ashnod: Terats seemingly have more aberration than non-Terats because we do not fear it. We will push our limits the scope of our power with less fear than the normal nova. We will walk the path that leads to a Chrysalis transformation and through that, become physically changed by it.

Physically, mentally, and socially... if things work correctly.

Ashnod: Using the comparisons of liver disease and alcoholism is terrible science, Doctor. As you already should be well aware, some in the Teragen were at one time considered brilliant scientists and scholars in the medical field, and their work and research into the fields of Taint and aberration would effectively negate everything you have said here.

I look forward to reading their publications. What, don’t they publish? Is their work less brilliant after they join?

Ashnod: Your words imply that someone has joined the Teragen, been transformed by Teras, and regretted the transformation. I do not believe this has happened, Dr. Smith. Those that follow our path know that change awaits them, and embrace the possiblity. Does Geryon regret what he has become? Apep regret her transformation? Mal or I regret ours?

So you, Geryon, & Apep are the success stories and the success stories don’t regret their success. Got that part. But I doubt you “push yourselves to your limits” with the extremely dangerous, not well understood phenomenon without suffering casualties. So, how many have there been, and what happens to them that they don’t “regret”?

[Ashnod]

I look forward to reading their publications. What, don’t they publish? Is their work less brilliant after they join?

Heh. Is that the best you can do?

Physically, mentally, and socially... if things work correctly.

And you can accurately judge how Teras/Chrysalis correctly works? Have you examined Terat novas? Are you certain those Terat novas, if you have, Chrysalized or did their Taint come prior? Not all Terats follow Teras, you must realize this. Not all followers of Teras have Chrysalized, and not all novas claiming to be members of the Teragen are indeed what they claim.

I do not believe you are qualified to judge the success of our methods.

So you, Geryon, & Apep are the success stories and the success stories don’t regret their success. Got that part. But I doubt you “push yourselves to your limits” with the extremely dangerous, not well understood phenomenon without suffering casualties. So, how many have there been, and what happens to them that they don’t “regret”?

That is your doubt to have, and it would be an incorrect one. You are comparing Teras/Chrysalis at this point to standard "quantum backlash," and the two of them do not affect a nova the same way.

We are not taking injections. We are not experimenting with narcotics, or the promise of a easy "cure." Teras is not some instant quick-solution. Chrysalizing takes time. It is a philosophy as much as a process, and requires dedication and control. Ask you if a Buddhist or Zen master regrets their decision to become what they are?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: Heh. Is that the best you can do?

It’s all I need. Unpublished work might as not exist.

Ashnod: I do not believe you are qualified to judge the success of our methods.

I assure you, not for lack of desire. If I come up with insight, or a treatment, or even a cure, I will share it with the world. To do otherwise would be unethical.

Troll: So you, Geryon, & Apep are the success stories and the success stories don’t regret their success. Got that part. But I doubt you “push yourselves to your limits” with the extremely dangerous, not well understood phenomenon without suffering casualties. So, how many have there been, and what happens to them that they don’t “regret”?

Ashnod: That is your doubt to have, and it would be an incorrect one. You are comparing Teras/Chrysalis at this point to standard "quantum backlash," and the two of them do not affect a nova the same way.

Interesting if true, but not the point. The newspapers report that Sloppy Joe is getting less stable (my apologies if you are reading this Joe). Let’s say he is. Let’s even say he dies or goes mad.

Are we to then believe he is the first Terat to do so? I'm guessing he would (somehow) not count as a strike against Teras. My question is, how many other non-failures are there littering the ground somewhere?

[Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Dreamer,

Snake oil implies a liquid that promises something yet does nothing, a reference to a particular part of medicinal history.

Having no first hand experience with me, my teachings, my students, or their progress, how can you honestly claim this has any validity?

Who said I haven't seen what your teachings have done?
Look at the world,and tell me how Epoch is improving the one race? Even a dead nova can't learn new tricks.

Look at how you say the only thing holding you,is yourself. Yet each nova has to follow their own path? Explain to me how if any nova can do anything they wish to do,then why would treat each novas as if they were one of a kind? If the only limits novas have are in our heads, then couldn't you just state that by having no limits,we are the same? After all are we not who we are,not only because what we can do, but also what we can't do?But still you miss the point.

Do you care more about the context of the actions, or the membership card they carry?

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
You don't want to see anything but your own view. Enjoy your life. (G)ood luck with the freak of nature.

Interesting.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
Who said I haven't seen what your teachings have done?
Look at the world,and tell me how Epoch is improving the one race? Even a dead nova can't learn new tricks.

Look at how you say the only thing holding you,is yourself. Yet each nova has to follow their own path? Explain to me how if any nova can do anything they wish to do,then why would treat each novas as if they were one of a kind? If the only limits novas have are in our heads, then couldn't you just state that by having no limits,we are the same? After all are we not who we are,not only because what we can do, but also what we can't do?But still you miss the point.

Do you care more about the context of the actions, or the membership card they carry?

Is there anyone else you want to debate, or is Epoch the sum total of your antipathy against me at the moment? I have never spoken to Epoch personally.

Please give an example of someone I have personally mentored or instructed.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

It’s all I need. Unpublished work might as not exist.

Have you ever looked at yourself and considered why our work is not offered to you?

I assure you, not for lack of desire. If I come up with insight, or a treatment, or even a cure, I will share it with the world. To do otherwise would be unethical.

Which, if Taint was a disease, would be expected. As it is not...

Interesting if true, but not the point. The newspapers report that Sloppy Joe is getting less stable (my apologies if you are reading this Joe). Let’s say he is. Let’s even say he dies or goes mad.

Are we to then believe he is the first Terat to do so? I'm guessing he would (somehow) not count as a strike against Teras. My question is, how many other non-failures are there littering the ground somewhere?

None that I am aware, though I am certain someone will be more than happy to give an example of someone I have never heard of and never met to try and contradict that. It tends to happen.

Leo is still sitting on his mountain unable to come down to the lower atmosphere, after all.

For the record, how would the newspapers know if Joe is worse, and how are they measuring it? Has he told you or them that we have failed him?

[Lee Jones]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Using the comparisons of liver disease and alcoholism is terrible science, Doctor. As you already should be well aware, some in the Teragen were at one time considered brilliant scientists and scholars in the medical field, and their work and research into the fields of Taint and aberration would effectively negate everything you have said here.

He's not the only one Ashnod. This very paragraph is an example of "terrible" debate protocol.

[Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Is there anyone else you want to debate, or is Epoch the sum total of your antipathy against me at the moment? I have never spoken to Epoch personally.

Please give an example of someone I have personally mentored or instructed. [/QB]

Isn't one nova enough for a debate for you?You point out Leo as a reason I shouldn't be trusted.. But let's get back to it. Epoch is not condemned for his actions, and yet by his very actions is condemning untold numbers of novas.

And no, he is not the only point of my debate,and I am rather sick of asking you answer me. But I figure, if I ask you enough time, you may answer.

Do you care more about the context of the actions, or the membership card they carry? Because until you answer that, all other debate is rather pointless.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: Have you ever looked at yourself and considered why our work is not offered to you?

Yeah, but none of the options reflect well on the author(s) and their “nova-centric” set of ethics.

I publish because I care enough about all novas, even the ones I don’t like, to want everyone and anyone to benefit from my work. I don’t expect everyone to understand my work, and or even to care. Among other things, some other researcher may look at what I’m doing and gain insight into what he is doing. If that means he gets a cure and a noble prize instead of me, so be it.

Ashnod: For the record, how would the newspapers know if Joe is worse, and how are they measuring it?

My trust in the tabloid press isn’t great either, that’s why I said “let’s assume he is”.

Ashnod: Has he told you or them that we have failed him?

I haven’t heard of a lot of success, but it’s when he can’t tell anyone anything that we will know you have failed him.

Ashnod: None that I am aware…

Now you sound like someone from a PR firm. No Terat has ever had any problems with aberrations, even though they are covered with them? Why, that sounds too good to be true. Way too good in fact. Another possibility is the body count is high enough to be embarrassing.

Just off hand, Prodigy mentioned a while back one of his Storyteller friends had slipped into catatonia. That he was stuck forever playing god to his creations. I got the impression Prodigy hand put his body in a closet somewhere or something.

Ashnod: Leo is still sitting on his mountain unable to come down to the lower atmosphere, after all.

Who?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee 'Shovel Bum' Jones:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Using the comparisons of liver disease and alcoholism is terrible science, Doctor. As you already should be well aware, some in the Teragen were at one time considered brilliant scientists and scholars in the medical field, and their work and research into the fields of Taint and aberration would effectively negate everything you have said here.

He's not the only one Ashnod. This very paragraph is an example of "terrible" debate protocol.

Really. Perhaps you could cite for me the names, dates, and publications of the other individual's research. Do not make up names and publications. I will call you on it if you do.

Ultimately. Mr. Jones, the fact remains that other, valid research does counter his, and no amount of declaring "my research proves this theory" or "they are biased Terats" or "Taint clouds their minds" changes that.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
Isn't one nova enough for a debate for you?You point out Leo as a reason I shouldn't be trusted.. But let's get back to it. Epoch is not condemned for his actions, and yet by his very actions is condemning untold numbers of novas.

And no, he is not the only point of my debate,and I am rather sick of asking you answer me. But I figure, if I ask you enough time, you may answer.

Do you care more about the context of the actions, or the membership card they carry? Because until you answer that, all other debate is rather pointless.

Define "context" of their actions. Context implies frame of reference or perception, and that is highly subjective.

[Ashnod]

Now you sound like someone from a PR firm. No Terat has ever had any problems with aberrations, even though they are covered with them? Why, that sounds too good to be true. Way too good in fact. Another possibility is the body count is high enough to be embarrassing.

Define having a problem? From their perspective, from yours, or from baseline humanity's? From THEIR perspective, again, I know of no example that authenticates your argument.

I haven’t heard of a lot of success, but it’s when he can’t tell anyone anything that we will know you have failed him.

So his success at Teras rests in our hands? I see. So it is up to us to correct the condition given him by eruption, and our failure if Teras is not a sufficient answer.

Do you ever wonder why he came to us? I am willing to wager that your answers failed him long before he ventured to our door.

Either way, I do not see this example as a failure of Teras.

Yeah, but none of the options reflect well on the author(s) and their “nova-centric” set of ethics.

My point exactly.

[Dreamer]

If a nova kills another nova, is that right or wrong? In what way could it be right and what way could it be wrong?

If two novas act in the same way and manors as each other and one is a teagen and the other is not. Would condemn The teragen member just as easily as you would the non teragen memeber?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: So his success at Teras rests in our hands? I see. So it is up to us to correct the condition given him by eruption, and our failure if Teras is not a sufficient answer.

Yes, it is in your hands. Yes, it is up to you. Yes, he came to you for help. Yes, presumably you are trying to help him. So yes, if you fail then you fail.

Ashnod: Do you ever wonder why he came to us? I am willing to wager that your answers failed him long before he ventured to our door.

Yep. Got it in one. I can’t help him. If he’d been here on my watch, I’d count him as one of my failures. Heck, since I don’t have a clue on how to help him you can still count him as one of my failures. I don’t claim to know everything and I don’t claim to have a 100% success ratio.

Ashnod: Either way, I do not see this example as a failure of Teras.

Then that’s the message, and a problem, right there. If a Teragen nova dies, goes nuts, or whatever from your methods, it’s his fault or failure, not yours.

,,

Ashnod: From THEIR perspective, again, I know of no example that authenticates your argument.

I’d be a lot more accepting of that answer if failure was an option even for Joe. Again, I have to wonder how many non-failures the Teragen has under it’s belt. It must be a fairly large number to need the classification "it's not our fault".

[Ashnod]

Dr. Smith,

You are severely misrepresenting this. This is how you would have this be believed:

1) Joe's condition predates his contact with the Teragen.

2) Joe cannot be helped by current medicine or Taint "treatment."

3) Joe comes to the Teragen.

4) If Teragen cannot help him with his pre-existing condition, the Teragen is to blame and Joe is a failure of their philosophy.

Four is a fallacy. You cannot pin that on us. Quite simply, the failure you keep reaching for in your previous examples is one where some has successfully followed Teras and Chrysalized, yet regrets doing so in the end. None of this criteria applies in Joe's case.

Failure in Joe's case depends entirely on what HE defines as a success, not you. If his goal is to regain his human form, the Teragen is not going to help with that. If that is what defines his success, then he has come to the wrong people to help with his problem. If his goal is to accept his form and see how it changes or how he changes through Teras, the parameters of that success have changed. If he learns Teras, Chrysalizes, and wishes for his pre-Chrysalis form again, then YES, THEN, you might have grounds to say that Teragen failed him.

Is failure an option for Joe? It depends entirely on what he is looking for.

Pinning his PRE-EXISTING condition, and the status of it, on the Teragen is absurd.

[Lee Jones]

Ashnod-I think you missed the point. Perhaps in your busy schedule and persistent posts you hastily replied to my comment without reading it.

I am saying that if Troll is committing "terrible science" he is not the only one. I also suggested that your argument was flawed. You commit a fallacy in the paragraph that I quoted. You proclaim that research coming from members of your group will "negate" what Troll has done. Without citing authors or publications

I never agreed with either side. I simply said that both sides are equally guilty. So I'm not sure how you are going to "call me out on it" for not providing citations to research I never quoted.

And then again, in your reply, suggest that there is "other, valid research that counters his" without providing authors or publications .

Then you seem to redirect your debate with Troll toward me. I have never, in any form, said anything remotely similar to what you have written in quotes. I have never taken the position that Terats, as scientists, are inferior to non-Terats. To be honest I don't really even understand why you used this in your reply to my comment. It seems that you are overzealous in responding to comments that do not fit in your little mould.

In short, I was saying that you are just as guilty as Troll with regards to the presentation of facts within this debate.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: Pinning his PRE-EXISTING condition, and the status of it, on the Teragen is absurd.

Agreed.

Ashnod: 4) If Teragen cannot help him with his pre-existing condition, the Teragen is to blame and Joe is a failure of their philosophy.

Just as modern medicine is also a failure in this regard. Joe is a rough case. The deck is badly stacked against him. I don’t expect you to succeed. I don’t expect anyone to succeed with him.

Ashnod: “Four is a fallacy. You cannot pin that on us.”

Failure isn’t the same as blame.

Ashnod: “Quite simply, the failure you keep reaching for in your previous examples is one where some has successfully followed Teras and Chrysalized, yet regrets doing so in the end. None of this criteria applies in Joe's case.”

So we don’t count the ones who die, go mad, or are otherwise destroyed by their aberrations on the way?

[Neil Preston]

Time Out!

Flag on the play!!!

I get the feeling that both Dr. Troll and Ashnod basically want to help novas deal with taint, so why are you biting at one another.

Dr. Troll, you don't understand Teras. I don't understand Teras. Neither you nor I are members of the Teragen and it doesn't look like someone is going to explain it too us unless we join. Now that we have that out of the way, can we drop this otherwise useless banter?

Ashnod, what is Chrysalis?

What is Chrysalization?

What is the relationship between Chrysalis, Chrysalization, and Teras?

[Vox Via]

Neil, why would people fight if they had nothing in common? It is far more dangerous when you are nearly the same,than when you are rather different.

The fact is they are trying to do the same thing,and have the same goals. They are just using different means. I think the way Ashnod uses is better. It or at least something rather close to it, has helped me in the past. But I would not count out the possibility that it is not the only way to deal with this problem.

I advoid topics like this for the most part as I believe that both sides of this debate have made up their minds.

[Slattern]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Time Out!

Flag on the play!!!

I get the feeling that both Dr. Troll and Ashnod basically want to help novas deal with taint, so why are you biting at one another.

Because you've missed the difference between the two. Ashnod would like for Novas to receive instruction and guidence when it comes to Taint. Troll would like to avoid Taint at all costs and "cure" the Taint that has occured.

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Dr. Troll, you don't understand Teras. I don't understand Teras. Neither you nor I are members of the Teragen and it doesn't look like someone is going to explain it too us unless we join.

Not quite. Troll and a few others have made it very clear that regardless of what is said that Teras, in their eyes, will always be the voice of the serpent and they cannot brook that.

[Ashnod]

So we don’t count the ones who die, go mad, or are otherwise destroyed by their aberrations on the way?

Again, I am not aware of any such a nova. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Ashnod]

Mr. Jones,

Thank you for your clarification. Yes, I misunderstood your intentions. My apologies for my tone towards you.

[Lee Jones]

Ashnod-Oh no, there are no apologies necessary. This is the OpNet, confusion and porn are the name of the game. I am thankful that you at least have the maturity to carry on a decent debate without resorting to insults and personal attacks.

In my line of work people frequently forget that they are adults when they challenge anothers work. Mix that with a little beer and you have a fairly entertaining archaeology conference.

[Damanor]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Ashnod, what is Chrysalis?
What is Chrysalization?
What is the relationship between Chrysalis, Chrysalization, and Teras?

I was wondering the same thing. An abbreviated Opnet search on "chrysalis" brought fifty-two Entomology sites and a Terr'r artist.

[Ashnod]

Neil:

Ashnod, what is Chrysalis?

What is Chrysalization?

What is the relationship between Chrysalis, Chrysalization, and Teras?

1) Chrysalis is the process of controlling/harnessing/adapting Taint. It is what people refer to as the Teragen's "cure" or method of dealing with it. All of these terms are a simplistic way of trying to define Chrysalis as related to Taint, but they do not fully define it properly. It also refers, like the butterfly, to the metamorphic state where transformation occurs.

2) Chrysalization is the process of undergoing Chrysalis. Properly speaking, it can refer to someone currently working towards entering Chrysalis or in Chrysalis, ergo, SHE IS CHRYSALIZING, or someone who has completed it, SHE HAS CHRYSALIZED.

3) Teras is the philosophy that guides the one during Chrysalization. It leads to Chrysalis. Teras, AGAIN, is not the Null Manifesto.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dreamer:
If a nova kills another nova, is that right or wrong? In what way could it be right and what way could it be wrong?

If two novas act in the same way and manors as each other and one is a teagen and the other is not. Would condemn The teragen member just as easily as you would the non teragen memeber?

Context is required to debate these issues properly, Dreamer. You are moving into the realm of morality and morality, regardless of what you feel, is subjective.

You ask if killing a Nova is right or wrong? Is killing a Nova that followed the Church of Michael Archangel's beliefs and whom had planned the deaths of 100 other Novas wrong? Depends on your point of view. If you view any killing as wrong, then ending the life of that Nova is also wrong. If you view the lives of the 100 other Novas as more important than a single Nova life, then it might be mathematically rational to end that Nova's life. You may view that killing has no intrinsic evil and neither does life intrisinic value, therefore, it means nothing where any of these hypothetical Novas lives or dies.

My answer to that question will be different than another member of the Teragen's, and their answer different than another. This has been covered endlessly in previous threads.

With that answer, yes, as morality is subjective, if I found something offensive, then it would not matter if the Nova committing the act is a member of the Teragen or not. I am offended either way.

[Neil Preston]

Ashnod, thank you.

Does Chrysalizing lead to aberrations in the same manner that taint does?

Does it effectively combat Aberrancy Syndrome?

Slattern, I think you are somewhat wrong about Dr. Troll. I think his argument is that of "abstinence", were as Ashnod's is to "hand out rubbers" (sorry for going to a sexual reference with you, but I think this fits in this case). Dr. Troll is fixated on stopping the spread of STD's and responsibility, while Ashnod is looking at the issue of 'human nature' and controlling one's sexuality. It doesn't mean Dr. Troll doesn't care. It means he doesn't think rubbers do a good enough job and we need to know more before we all jump on the "rubber bandwagon".

The truth is that taint scares many novas. We do not understand it and we need to know more.

[Slattern]

I don't believe the analogy fits actually, in that it assumes that Taint is equivalents to an STD and inherently negative. Also, Dr. Smith doesn't seem willing to look at any possibility that does not begin with "Taint must be avoided at all costs" as opposed to actually wanting to know more. He wants to know more about how to fight it, and he'll understand it only if that understanding leads to conquering it. His viewpoint is not that of the intellectually engaged scientist but that of the fire and brimstone preaching evangelist. Whenever he attempts a discussion of the Teragen there is always an underlying desire to hear us either declare ourselves to be the monsters he thinks us to be or to hear us throw off any semblance of group loyalty and agree that cooperating with baseline authorities in the capture of our comrades is the only reasonable course of action. Neither of these responses shows any reasonable frame of mind being in evidence.

Please note, I do not apply the above to any personage who desires to discuss the Teragen from a less than admiring point of view, but rather this is simply the light into which Dr. Smith has stepped.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Slattern: ...Troll and a few others have made it very clear that regardless of what is said that Teras, in their eyes, will always be the voice of the serpent and they cannot brook that.

I’m past expecting a unified response from the Teragen. If people want to have a sensible discussion, then let’s have a sensible discussion. I think we are having one now.

But I deal with what is on the table. My work is public. If someone wants to say, “ah, ha, your calculations are wrong here, here, and here.” Then I have to respond, “Thank you, I’ll try to do better”. That’s the way modern science and medicine works. If someone wants to talk about “wonderful secret knowledge they can’t share because it might help the wrong people” then I have to question their ethics, accuracy, or truthfulness.

Neil: Ashnod, what is Chrysalis?

What is the relationship between Chrysalis, Chrysalization, and Teras?

Ashnod: 1) Chrysalis is the process of controlling/harnessing/adapting Taint. It is what people refer to as the Teragen's "cure" or method of dealing with it. All of these terms are a simplistic way of trying to define Chrysalis as related to Taint, but they do not fully define it properly. It also refers, like the butterfly, to the metamorphic state where transformation occurs.

3) Teras is the philosophy that guides the one during Chrysalization. It leads to Chrysalis. Teras, AGAIN, is not the Null Manifesto.

Interesting.

Thank you. You too Neil.

Hmm... everyone can do this? You said no one has ever failed, is it that easy? How many have Transformed?

Slattern: ...Dr. Smith doesn't seem willing to look at any possibility that does not begin with "Taint must be avoided at all costs" as opposed to actually wanting to know more.

Until just now no one has ever gone beyond the “taint is secretly good... it’s mysterious” line.

Slattern: ...always an underlying desire to hear ... cooperating with baseline authorities in the capture of our comrades is the only reasonable course of action.

Off topic. We seem to be talking about taint and aberrations.

[Neil Preston]

Whoops Slattern. What I meant to say is that the "Taint is a disease" crowd often takes the tact that Taint is like an STD, and thus to be avoided at all cost, not that I believe Taint to be the equivalent of an STD. I don't see taint as a disease at all.

I'm afraid my theory on what taint is would only put me farther out in Lemmy's Weird category.

I also don't' believe that Ashnod and other terats aren't proselytizing the accumulation of taint, rather taking a different tact on how we view both taint and aberration, thus the "handing out the rubbers" - in this case, the Chrysalis process.

We can still have promiscuous sex = use our Quantum Expressions as much as we like,

but now we are equipped with a means that offers some way of dealing with the resulting taint. (If this isn't what Ashnod means, please correct me.)

The alternate view is that we shouldn't have promiscuous sex = over-use of our QE's causes taint (bad!) and since no process is known to be 100% effective in stopping the accumulation of taint, we should abstain from doing the things that bring on the taint.

Now, the whole justice and accountability kick is my Dad's. I will leave that to him to deal with, or ignore.