opnet [OpNet] Of men and gods

[Neil Preston]

Okay, I read the thread that Ashnod showed us and I want to ask this question:

I repair someone to a "healed" condition. I have been able to fix long-stanging injuries a nova has suffered, but not pre-eruption injuries, or genetic conditions.

The question:

Does anyone think I could I fix a nova whose node has been removed?

I would be willing to attempt just that, if someone knew a nova this had happened to, and wanted to help them.

[Alex Craft]

Don't you exhibit sympathetic injuries upon healing someone? If you lost your node as a result of healing such a nova, there's no guarantee you'd heal back to normal - while it is theoretically possible to retain superhuman abilities after the loss of a node (and I've heard anecdotal evidence to support that), I'd guess that your control may be unreliable enough to regenerate the sympathetic damage.

[Sir Gaedal Glas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Here are some basic questions for everyone:
Are novas superior to baselines?

Is an apple suprior to mangos? Tis a daft question and the answer meaningless but to them that give it. The lot of this stinks of religion to me. I find the Ashnod a pleasant speaker and Preston a querrelsome soul but neither of their sacrements are mine.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Some come to me for what's little more than a trick or a favor on my part. When the matter's final and depending on how they see the outcome I've either made a friend for life or an enemy. There will be them that rule and them asked to do so. One is not the other though sometimes it should be. Give me a proper example and I'll give you my opinion just as proper.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Not for me to say for you and the Ashnod or Preston and Jimmy. Ye'd not beholden to my answer so the speaking of it would smack of man yelling at clouds.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

Back to this again are you? Tis no less daft than first you spoke of it.

NOTE: these questions do not represent my views.

And why would the asking of the questions not represent your views lad?

[ronin]

Speaking of your powers, what precisely is it you do, Gaedal?

And by the way, welcome back, mate.

[Singularity]

All right, time for me to add my reasoning and my own opinions to the mix.

Are novas superior to baselines?

No. No lifeform is superior to another, Darwin's fitness aside. I do not know of a way to rank or value species or subspecies.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Novas having sole leadership over baselines or baselines having sole leadership over novas is wrong. One group does not have the right to determine the fate of another solely due to a sense of superiority. Or fear.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

The misunderstood question. I was asking about segregation or the idea that baselines and novas should never ever mix. I do not believe in it. I believe novas and baselines can work well together as equals.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

No, all life is valuable and I do not believe we can list life in a graduated order of importance or quality.

And to answer Gaedal's question of why; I asked the questions because they are some of the basic questions regarding novas and baselines. Alchemist and Salamander were focusing on more specific areas and I thought it would make for interesting discussion for all of us to chime in on the foundation of the discussion. Perhaps one of us might say something Juri or Glenn did not consider or we could all be enlightened by other points of view. Judging by the response, I believe I accomplished what I wanted to, despite the imperfection of my questions.

[Ian 'Very Bad' Blakely]

Are novas superior to baselines?

In potential? Absolutely. In practice, not always.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Novas as a group? No, I don't think so. Many of us would not be good leaders. Others though, could be truly beneficent rulers, so I don't see why not.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

I'm not sure. Are we talking total segregation? I've not thought on that one too much.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

If you are using terms such as 'lesser' and 'superior' you've already answered the question.

[Johnny Magnum]

Are novas superior to baselines?

No way, we're all still human. Some of us are just a little better at things.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

I'm not sure if I understand. I don't think novas as a group should rule over everyone, but I don't mind seeing Portman as President.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Nope, segregation is wrong. Wasn't that the whole point of everything back in the 1960's?

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

I never thought about that. I mean, if there's a burning building I'm gonna try to save everyone in it including their pets. I might unconsciously choose to save the people faster but I've never consciously thought about it.

[Sir Gaedal Glas]

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:
Speaking of your powers, what precisely is it you do, Gaedal? And by the way, welcome back, mate.

Much obliged boyo.

Same as afore. Even old dogs learn new tricks walking the years but its all cut from the same clothe. Now the lads from university put their heads together and scribed three hundred page book on the nature of it but I don't expect most have taken the time to read it. I wouldn't, much as I love them. Over worded and damn boring to boot.

What lies within my grasp shares its nature with me. I can flow as water, leap like spark or pass through the land like I was part of it. I still stay away from piped telly. Got no mind for following the switchboards and like to end up in China as easy as down the street.

[ronin]

Are novas superior to baselines?

Novas have the capacity to be superior to humans in every conceivable way (other than some tooty shite like "be human"). Potential, however, is not always recognized, and while you could likely find a human somewhere who is better than a nova at many, many things, chances are that enough novas given enough time would be able to outclass a baseline at literally anything.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

No, they should leave each other the fuck alone, and the sooner, the better.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Yes. Not because I don't like baselines or don't think they contribute anything or because they're worthless. But because our very natures lead us inexorably to conflict, and I see it only getting worse. Eventually, novas will rule or baselines will kill us all.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

If you think otherwise, ask your steak's opinion on the matter.

[Ashnod]

I agree with Ronin's assessment, more or less.

Let me modify one of the questions and see how everyone reacts:

Are 'lesser' sentient/intelligent lifeforms less important than 'superior' sentient/intelligent lifeforms?

[Matryoshka]

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:
Are novas superior to baselines?
Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

No, they should leave each other the fuck alone, and the sooner, the better.

And Ronin, I should give up the ties of my family, because I am a nova and they are not?What if I have another child,and it is not a nova?Or what if it doesn't become one until I throw it out for being a baseline?

[ronin]

I should give up the ties of my family, because I am a nova and they are not?

Yes.

What if I have another child,and it is not a nova?

Here's a thought, Signy;

STOP RUTTING WITH 'THE HELP' AND IT WON'T BE A FUCKING ISSUE!!

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
[QBAre 'lesser' sentient/intelligent lifeforms less important than 'superior' sentient/intelligent lifeforms?[/QB]

No.

[Matryoshka]

There is no proof as weather or not Novas bread true.Even if I have a child to Divis Mal,that would not mean my child would be a nova,Ronin.

But let's add another level to this.Should I give up on my loved ones who are baseline,if I know one of them will become a nova?Should I alienate someone simply because they are not a nova now?Maybe I should force novahood upon them?

For one who has seen so much of the world, one has an awfully short vision.

[Sir Gaedal Glas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Signy Malory:
There is no proof as weather or not Novas bread true.Even if I have a child to Divis Mal,that would not mean my child would be a nova,Ronin.

What in the name of Mary, Joseph and wee baby Jesus does the weather have to do with eating bread and who your lack is?

Christ! There's a strange flock of birds here and thats god's own truth.

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
I agree with Ronin's assessment, more or less.

Let me modify one of the questions and see how everyone reacts:

Are 'lesser' sentient/intelligent lifeforms less important than 'superior' sentient/intelligent lifeforms?

I think the proper question should be: Should we even put a value on life, since it is infinitely more valuable than anything we can use to quantify it?

I am alive. A human is alive. If neither side can't at the very least, respect the other, then there are MAJOR issues.

I think my thoughts now are starting to be expressed by the more thoughtful and insightful members of the forums. So I am not going to beat a dead horse by restating what has already been said.

So, I will just restate my question with an answer to add to this conversation. Should life have a value? No, because it is invaluable. Does sentient life have more value than ordinary animals? No, because all life has equal value: Infinite.

So, let's look at the bigger picture.

We (Novas/Humans) eat lesser animals and plants for sustanance. This in turn actually raises the value of the lesser becasue it is needed for survival. But it is counterbalanced by the fact that it too has every right to live as we do.

In the end, it is the logical mind that mucks this up.

Does the Lion contemplate the morals and philosophies of dealing with a gazelle? No. It's hungry, damnit, and it's going to do it's job.

Does the gazelle think any less of the Lion? No, it just makes every attempt to escape to the best of it's ability.

Of course, such analogies does not fit when you throw full sentience into the equation. Then things like Religion, Ethics, Morales, Philosophy, and Logic get in the way because we no longer operate under Nature's one law. Survival of the fittest.

So, in our world of gears and levers we deal with the question of what would happen when Signy has a child. What would happen when it's born?

If she took care of her seed like any good mother, she is following the right course. If she discards it like common garbage because it does not have a node, that is wrong and immoral.

What is correct?

Well, not only is taking care of her child and rearing it to be a good, honest, and just person is the proper course. Throwing it out just because it isn't Nova, is well, against any explaination. It is WRONG.

The thing that disturbs me is how Novas are so willing to discard any lifeform's value just because it doesn't have the gift of the Node.

It is progressively gettnig harder and harder to deal with the Human population. Why? Humans naturally, after all the gloss and glitter of seeing our births and early lives fade, develop a distrust of us. Because with ou power we can change fundamental parts of their lives THEY want to control. As of yet, We do not have a society of our own, so it bumps into theirs.

Hence, the conflict.

I am beginning to believe more and more, that it is of the utmost and paramount of needs, for Novas to seperate themselves adequately from Human society, just by the sheer fact that we indeed can harm them just by our existance.

It is unfortunate that our gift will, in time, be the warrant that kicks us off this world. And I guarantee everyone, that it may be 25, 50, 100 years from now, and we will have to leave for the sake of not only Humanity, but of all life on this planet.

We are so outside the rules, it scares me to no end.

[Jager]

Here's something for you all:

Would it be wrong to give a child of two novas to a baseline couple to raise?

Would a nova couple that had a baseline child be wrong to raise it? Or, should they give it up for adoption?

While the odds are rather small, two novas can give birth to a non-nova child. No one was "rutting the help", either. Novas develop genetic abnormalities, incase no one noticed.

Imagine the scandal in the nova community?

Would that be grounds for divorce?

[Sakurako Hino]

Why should you give up the child you love?

I mean, if you felt you'd be a danger to your child, that's one matter where yes, you should put the child up for adoption. But if the child's safety is just as good as a Human family, the child should be fine with Nova parents.

Besides, what if the abilities of a bred nova aren't seen until after puberty? Or when the child is fully mature?

A lot of questions. No answers. Bother...

As for who I would choose to mate with, that is of my business and mine alone. But I would choose to have... relations... with a Nova. Just for the sheer fact I would run a Human to death with my stamina.

...

That was too much information, but you get my point. Only a nova could understand my emotional and sensual needs...

I digress.

[ronin]

Franklin.

You're wrong. Again, try asking your steak. Fuck it, ask your salad. A head of lettuce is still life, boyo.

Wait, you're not a Breatharian, are you?

Signy.

Sorry, but until your niece or whatever joins the Quantum Club, she gets to sit outside with the rest of the monkeys. Now quit bothering me.

Jager.

Yes.

Saku.

Where'd you go, dear?

Oh, there you are. In the tremendous hole you appear to have dug for yourself...

Super-stamina, huh?

Wheel sea.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin:
You're wrong. Again, try asking your steak. Fuck it, ask your salad. A head of lettuce is still life, boyo.

Wait, you're not a Breatharian, are you?

The concept of a food-chain does not justify the ranking of worth of living species. Nor is it necessary to kill to get food (fruit, vegetables, et cetera). And it is possible for me to go weeks, if not months, without sustenance. It is not pleasent but I have done it before. That said, I still eat meat. It seems it is my karma to still be ruled by my bodily wants. Or you could say I am still ruled by some of my lesser angels of my nature.

However, the issue I was trying to draw out (and Ashnod caught on to it) was whether or not a baseline life is less valuable than a nova life. I believe they are equal.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
The concept of a food-chain does not justify the ranking of worth of living species. Nor is it necessary to kill to get food (fruit, vegetables, et cetera). And it is possible for me to go weeks, if not months, without sustenance. It is not pleasent but I have done it before. That said, I still eat meat. It seems it is my karma to still be ruled by my bodily wants. Or you could say I am still ruled by some of my lesser angels of my nature.

However, the issue I was trying to draw out (and Ashnod caught on to it) was whether or not a baseline life is less valuable than a nova life. I believe they are equal.

For the record, you kill anything you consume. You must end the life of a plant that you consume as surely as you end the life of an animal you consume. Plucking an apple from the tree will end the life that apple had still unrealized, as does removing a carrot from the ground. (Do not nitpick about the lifespan of a vegetable removed from the earth, please, it may survive a while but when it ends up in one's stomach it is assuredly no longer living)

Also for the record, most Novas must still eat to survive, and in doing so, eat several times more than the average baseline.

The question must now be asked, Franklin. Why is baseline life more important than the life of a tree? I am not saying that you are incorrect, mind you, but your arguments thus far have not been clear.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
The question must now be asked, Franklin. Why is baseline life more important than the life of a tree? I am not saying that you are incorrect, mind you, but your arguments thus far have not been clear.

I do not believe baseline life is necessarily more important than the life of a tree. I hold to the belief that each species, in gernal, is just as important as any other species. Life is life and no one group holds some special place in the universe.

Now this is where practically comes in and throws everything off. As mentioned earlier, some Buddhist monks revere all life so much they are forced into a life of inaction out of fear of accidently killing an insect. Or how about a virus or bacteria: even the most ardent members of Green War would agree that medicine that heals us is a good thing, despite the countless number of bacteria killed by antibiotics. I understand my belief is an ideal, one that would be nigh impossible to follow in totality.

Hence, I survive by consuming life but I do not justify it by saying or thinking "we are more important than <insert species> so what we do is right." Nor do I think it is right to consider the nova life more valuable than the baseline life.

[Vox Via]

A tree is just a tree.It will be a tree,and aside from the possibility of passing some genes along that are "better" for other tree,it will be a tree and nothing more.It will not right books,leave works of art, build great marvels of science.It may inspire these things, but it will never do these things.

Humans,on the other hand change in great strides compared to most other life forms.In the span of one life time humans went from the ground to the sky,all the way to the moon.In the last 100 years humans have gone from building stone building,that were limits by how thick the wall is, to building cities inside of a single building.I could go on, but that is pointless.To lessen the changes humanity would lessen the changes we ourselves have gone threw.

And Ashnod, I could eat foods in away that nothing would die.Picking apples from a tree doesn't kill the tree.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Ashnod:The question must now be asked, Franklin. Why is baseline life more important than the life of a tree?

From your point of view? Because baselines can become novas, or have children who will.

They are us. We are them.

[ronin]

The issue I was trying to bring out, Fraklin, which Ashnod was nice enough to rub your nose in for the sake of clarity, was that if you can attach a value to the life of anything you consume, whether that's the life of a cow who became a steak or the life of a carrot you dice up into soup, you obviously can and do place values on life. Clearly, you feel that your life is worth more than that of all that you consume, and I couldn't agree more. Your life is worth more than that, as is the life of any sentient creature.

However, you cannot escape the fact that unless you never take or aid in the taking of any form of life, you do, in fact, place a relative value on different forms of life.

Once you stop lying to yourself and accept that, Franklin, all that's left is to haggle over the prices.

[Singularity]

I disagree, ronin, that my appetite forces me to place value on different forms of life. Hm, allow me to clarify.

I am talking about life in generalities here, not individuals. You and I share a mutual dislike for DeathSquad and I believe we both would place a much lower value on his life than the value we may place on "Average Joe Nova," and I am denying it. But I do not believe that opinion is predicated on the me placing different values on forms of life. Nor is it necessary for me now to make my top ten list of species because of my displeasure with DeathSquad.

I again, I will repeat the original purpose of the question, "are nova lives more important than baseline lives?" And my answer still is "No, our lives are equally important as baseline lives."

[ronin]

The fact that your appetite forces you to put value on different forms of life is just the beginning of a long and slippery slope, Franklin. Do you swat bugs that annoy you? Ever set a mouse trap? Go hunting? Fishing? Kill?

Once you've allowed yourself to kill for any reason, you can manufacture reasons to allow for anything else. Do you fly everywhere to avoid stepping on animals? What happens if you're in your car and run over a snake? A squirrel? Would it make a difference?

My point in all this, Franklin, is that we all attach values to life all the time. We'd like to tell ourselves we don't. It gives us a feeling of moral superiority to be able to tell ourselves that we are just and good and treat everyone equally, but really, we don't. We do not regard the life of celery as we do that of a child. We do not regard the life of a sheep as we do that of our family. As I said, once you realize that, all that's left is to haggle over the price.

However. As for me, personally, I have accepted the fact that I place different values on different forms of life, and generally speaking, I award novas a higher price than I do baselines. How.Ev.Er. That isn't because I make blanket judgements about entire groups or species' respective value. I determine that value on a totally individual basis and based upon my own criteria only. The "value" of an individual life is relative to the perceiver. In my case, everyone gets a fair shake to be "valuable" (read; worthwhile). I've simply decided from past experience that the life of a nova, a rare thing for the time being (comparatively), is worth more than that of an average baseline. Why? For the same reason that the life of a Tasmanian Wolf would be worth more than that of a Husky, or a Dodo more than a Cardinal.

[Singularity]

ronin, I believe we are either agreeing, sharing obscurely similiar points of view, or communicating poorly. I mentioned the impracticality of my belief before, I just feel we should not dismiss that ideal because its difficulty (hence our disagreement).

[Preston]

Sentiant life.

Throughout history, we have chosen to ignore the importance of it, and belittled others for not have the "quality" of it that we supposed we had. Only within the past century has mankind come around to the belief that sentiance is a uniting force, that binds all such beings together. For most of that time, the belief was that it was that it only pertained to what we consider today to be baseline man.

Now, as novas, we have the chance to keep up with that level of advancement, or to turn back the clock to some sort of primitive, Victorian thinking.

We can chose to say we all share sentiance, emotions, and a common heritage which we can share through thought, word, art and act.

Or, we can chose say, "they are not us, so they are not the equal of us, nor worth as much as one of us".

Yes, I know there are biological distinctions. I know that in the old days, they drew the distinction upon the lines of technological, social, and religious developments. It would appear that we can draw the distinction along the lines of "we manipulate quantum, and they don't" ... or, we can chose not to.

We can chose to say, "We are all one race, and we can live together with a sense of equality and respect."

Ronin & Ashnod, if you want to live outside, fine. Get going. Don't interact. Leave the novas who want to work with baselines alone.

If you can't treat baselines as equals, then try to respect our wishes to leave them alone.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Preston:

Ronin & Ashnod, if you want to live outside, fine. Get going. Don't interact. Leave the novas who want to work with baselines alone.
If you can't treat baselines as equals, then try to respect our wishes to leave them alone.

Why? You won't respect our wishes that you cease interacting with them.

I don't request this out of selfishness or spite. I hold a very sincere belief that your assistance to baselines harms their society and development. You simply choose not to agree. But don't talk of respecting wishes when you're not willing to do the same.

[Wakinyan]

I am curious how exactly does our interaction hurt them Mr. Meehan? It seems with all the positive benefits Novas have had over the past decade and a half that there could be no arguement against the positive influence Novakind has had on humanity and the world in general. Can you point out the why and how that you see as being the reason we shouldn't have anything to do with baselines?

[Preston]

There is something about Self-Determination, Mr. Meehan. In theory, your self-determination ends at my face, Mr. Meehan, and mine ends at yours.

You are right in that I don't understand your failing to accept that any nova can live live among baseline humanity without causing said society harm.

I will accept, in theory, that such a thing is possible. I just don't see it as inevitable, and I've looked.

The arrival of novas has changed the world.

I am still curious to know what burned you and Ashnod so badly that you've both lost faith in the positive aspects of humanity.

[Ashnod]

1) I'm enough of a realist to know that baseline humanity is always at its best when it is at its worst, but usually at its worst when it is at its best.

2) Why do you assume something "happened" to me to give me the perspective I possess? Must I be the product of abuse or trauma, in your opinion?

3) I do live seperately from baseline humanity. That does not stop me for having compassion for my species, worry for its survival, or that of the planet it currently resides on. It also doesn't prevent me from worrying about the affects my species has on other species on this planet, or the affects other species might have on mine.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Totem:
I am curious how exactly does our interaction hurt them Mr. Meehan? It seems with all the positive benefits Novas have had over the past decade and a half that there could be no arguement against the positive influence Novakind has had on humanity and the world in general. Can you point out the why and how that you see as being the reason we shouldn't have anything to do with baselines?

You've already answered your own question. Ask yourself a few more. Why do the Nova minority of professional musicians and entertainers bring in a near majority of entertaintment revenue? Why has the XWF reduced baseline professional sports to a mere shadow of their previous levels? Why are the Olympics no longer held? Why have the economies of the Middle East been ravaged? Why have the errors of industry past been erased within a generation without a lesson being learned?

Novas.

[Sakurako Hino]

I don't eat humans. That has to account for something, doesn't it?

You see, everyone, we are having this argument by splitting hairs.

I eat meat, and plants. I am greatful for the gift of sustenance, that those animals and plants sacrificed themselves for, to keep me alive. I'm greatful it isn't the other way around.

At least unless I'm a victim of some radical nova worshiping cult that eats the flesh of other novas... but that is beside the point.

Humans and Novas are predators. We need to eat other living things to survive. I'm just glad we don't have to eat other Humans or the other way around. I don't think beings should eat things that can put up an intellectual conversation with you before you kill it.

Sorry, black humor.

But you get my point. I hope.

[ronin]

Franklin.

That may be, but you seem to have not yet developed the killer's palate that some of us possess. I won't hesitate to put a price on the life of the individual, because yes, I think that you can size someone up based upon what they contribute to the world and how massive a douchebag they are. The primary difference between nova and baseline insofar as that valuing process is concerned is that novas, being more rare and in the unique position of being a sentient entity searching for personal and communal identity in an utter vacuum, I am much more reticent to condemn a nova than I am a baseline. As for baselines, I've seen them at every extreme you care to name. Ten times. I have the t-shirts and collectable trading cards. Nothing a baseline does surprises me anymore. You might think I'm jaded; I'm just experienced. Novas, on the other hand, still surprise me from time to time, and their motives tend to be a littler harder to figure out, and it gets exponentially harder, the more powerful the nova is. Because of that, I'm a little less eager to condemn a nova (who still might have something up his sleeve I do not yet comprehend) than a baseline (who, frankly, I can mentally dissect faster than you can cook eggs).

Preston.

What's the matter, chum? Aren't convinced that my line of philosophical reasoning comes from my Uncle touching me in an improper place? Why don't I get to be traumatized under your blanket judgement?

Anyway, Preston, I'd like to leave, but I don't plan to until I can take a goodly number of you with me. Space, I have found, is somewhat boring all on your lonesome. Until then, I deal with baselines as little as is practical, but then again, sometimes I actually enjoy being around them. After all, who doesn't love going to the zoo every now and again?

All that unpleasantness aside, I pretty much agree with everything Prodigy and Ashnod said.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Why have the errors of industry past been erased within a generation without a lesson being learned?

So baselines would be much better off with pollution? There is no lesson to be learned, industry is now pollution free(er). We no longer have to choose between jobs and saving the environment.

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Why are the Olympics no longer held?

They are, they just aren't as big a media event as before.

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Why do the Nova minority of professional musicians and entertainers bring in a near majority of entertainment revenue?

The top of that crowd has "brought in a near majority of the entertainment revenue" ever since the invention of mass media. The bottom of the heap (i.e. everyone not in the top 1%) have always needed "real" jobs to support them. This is a "problem" with the industry and a supply/demand thing.

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Why has the XWF reduced baseline professional sports to a mere shadow of their previous levels?

Why this is a bad thing? (And see previous answer).

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Why have the economies of the Middle East been ravaged?

Two reasons: Discrimination and Oil. The economies of the Middle East have always looked like this with the exception of oil. Saudi Arabia has almost *no* exports except for oil. They were poor before oil, and they didn't use all those petro-dollars to good use when the had them.

On top of that you have discrimination against novas, women, Jews, and anything else the so called "leaders" of the area can point their fingers at. Mainly this is done to avoid discussion over their own failures (i.e. corruption and incompetence). Sooner or later oil was always going to be replaced. Everything else follows as a consequence of that.

And I'll point out this part of the world has tried to avoid contact with novas.

This is one of the big reasons their economy has been "ravaged".

Hopefully one day they will learn their lesson and welcome novas and other minorities.

[Y.T.]

And Troll, what of Brazil, Columbia and other large areas of south America?They used Oil as large part of their economies. The nova based car doesn't cut Pollution,nearly as much as other methods that were known of pre-98.It only lowers the amount of oil used.

In 1984, showed that the first mile of a car exoust is palliative as the next 400+ miles.This because the car needs to warm up,and get to the proper heat to break down the palliative properties of the exoust. Funny thing, a plastic bag can hold the exoust until the car is properly heated.So,a plastic bag could have not saved a lot of pollution,and would have lower the chances of having the CZ in such power.By the way, this wasn't used largely do the fact it would cost slightly more to build cars this way.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
So baselines would be much better off with pollution? There is no lesson to be learned, industry is now pollution free(er). We no longer have to choose between jobs and saving the environment.

Because they spent 100 years decimating the environment, and our species corrected their mistakes within the span of a decade. They did not learn how to do it themselves, and had it not been for our arrival, they would likely have not done it at all.

I cannot understand why you fail to see the significance of this.

Have you wondered what shape the planet would be in today if Novas had not arrived when they did?

The point Prodigy is making is that they cannot depend on us to solve the problems they created. They must create their own solutions.

The top of that crowd has "brought in a near majority of the entertainment revenue" ever since the invention of mass media. The bottom of the heap (i.e. everyone not in the top 1%) have always needed "real" jobs to support them. This is a "problem" with the industry and a supply/demand thing.

Except that when the top 1% were baselines, those in the bottom percent had a far, far better chance of breaking into the higher percentages. With the advent of Nova actors, actresses, models, musicians, and singers, it is more difficult for those who cannot erupt to succeed in an industry where their own species is the primary consumer of the product.

More importantly, it sets a standard that aspiring baseline artists cannot hope to equal.

It is a bad thing, Dr. Smith, because the more and more they pay attention to us, and our accomplishments, the more insignificant their species become in their own eyes. I am not speaking on an individual level, rather on seeing the importance of your species in the coming years, and the hopes it has to excel in the shadow of homo sapiens novus.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Hyperfusion has gotten rid of the need for oil in power plants and such. That's one of two reasons why the demand for oil/gas has halved. The other has been increased efficiency in our use of it.

The problem with the "it would have [only] cost slightly more to build cars this way" argument is "slightly more" usually turned out to be thousands of dollars and/or require engineering feats we either don't know how to do or couldn't do without other problems. No one ever wanted to pollute the environment.

Engineering can very much be about trade offs and environmental conditions. That "plastic bag" may work very well on a 60 degree day in California with average humidity. Getting the technology to not damage the car on a -30 degree morning in Alaska or at a higher altitude might be a problem.

Or I should say, "that we didn't know how to do." Nova engineers have made "slightly more" true in practice as well as in theory.