opnet [OpNet] Of men and gods

[kestrel404]

This is a continuation of the discussion (read:flame war) between myself and Ms. McClendon. Anyone else who wants to jump in, feel free.

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Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:

Well, unfortunately for you, Baldy, the nature of the soul means jackshit when defining a species scientifically.

Of course the soul makes no difference to biology. My statement was in reference to your claim that we are 'living deities, spirits, and incarnations'. By every definition of the above that I know, they are not human, and are in fact spiritually different from humans. I stated that the presence or the absence of a node does not change the soul. I certainly can't prove that, but I'm not likely to change my opinion on it either.

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Biologists and naturalists are divided among how exactly to define a species. Several definitions currently are in use, and some of them contradict the others. For example, you can attempt to define a species using the folk, biological, morphological, genetic, paleontological, evolutionary, phylogenetic and biosystematic definitions, and that's not even all of them. If you use the "folk" definition towards this little discussion, then the Zurich Accord is supported. However, if you use the 'morphological" one, then the Null Manifesto is supported.

I'm glad you're finally taking off the kid gloves and using your mind. You are quite right, the scientific community is still debating this point. But it does not change what I have said. You are a creature of meat and bones, and if you were to dorm down there would be nothing but a lump of flesh in your head to distinguish between you and Joe Baseline.

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I got my scientific facts to back me up, too, dipshit. Saying that you have "Facts" is dubious at best, since I have "Facts" which can contradict them. We're debating on something scientists couldn't agree on before the Galatea went up in flames.

You are claiming far more of my statements to be facts than I am. Maybe I should insert footnotes into future arguments so you can dissect them more easily?

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Originally posted by Glenn 'Alchemist' Roberts:

I know for a fact that I'm made of the same flesh and bones as a human. I just have an extra bit that lets me channel energy in nifty ways.

Please, show me the facts which contradict this.

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Now, onto that pesky soul thing. Nova and baseline philosophers can't agree on what makes something "human" and what makes something a "god." I don't think there's any "facts" you're gonna present that can make a convincing argument.

Wouldn't dream of it.

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I'll say this much. I know I'm not a supreme being. I'm not ushering souls towards some imaginary resting place that can only be accepted as existing with faith. What I do have, though, is more in common with the gods and monsters of myth than the mortals of myth, and the same applies to every other nova out there. I think we're being a bit arrogant if we assume all the stories from the polytheistic religions of the world are just made up fancy rather than entertain the idea that they might just be creatures similar to us. I might not be a god in the sense that I need worshippers, but I'm most definitely a hi no rei, and I'm closer to Hera than I am to my fellow U of A students.

Now here's my take. We are human. We certainly act human, with individuals among us making the same mistakes that, historically, humanity is so famous for. And with the wise among us going about and doing what wise humans have done for generations. Having a node does not fundamentally change our humanity, only our capabilities and outlook.

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An insult is an insult regardless of whether or not it has its intended affect.

...

Dipshit, you're slinging mud and arrows in my direction as surely as I'm slinging them back at you. Difference between us is that I'm willing to buck-up to what I'm doing, and you're trying to hide behind a cool facade.

I have not yet denied it. I will return every bit of scorn I am given. So please, feel free to continue calling me names and I'll continue to point out how childish you are.

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Originally posted by Glenn 'Alchemist' Roberts:

Wait, let me guess. By calling me a 'typical' quantum accident, you were implying that my views were simpleminded re-iterations of the Zurich Accords and Utopia's PR tripe, that my opinion was poorly thought out and not worth paying attention to, and that I was an arrogant authoritarian who has wasted his 'accidental' eruption. Perhaps that is the 'point' to which you were referring, since I merely interpreted that as additional scorn.

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Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:

Way off the mark, dipshit. Way off the mark. The word you should be paying attention to in my little remark is "typical" and not "quantum accident."

That's what I did.

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Your response is typical of someone who became a Nova through accidental circumstances. It's easier for you to think you're nothing special because you didn't do anything to earn what you've got. You didn't go through a rite of passage like I did. You had no ceremony, no deliberation, and no test of your will. You just went about your daily life and fate smiled on you.

I never said being a nova wasn't special, merely that it does not inherently turn us into gods. We're still human, and if that's not 'special' enough for you, then keep telling yourself whatever you want. Just don't lambaste us if we don't agree with you.

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What I'm saying is that while I'm certain you've given quite a bit of thought to the scientific evidence you want to believe in, it's typical of someone who didn't do anything to get the power they have. If you went through what I did to become a nova, with all the intent and ceremony that my eruption entailed, you'd probably see things differently.

If I felt the need to attempt suicide in a ritual fashion, in the hope that I would win the 'genetic lottery', I'm sure my outlook on life would be very different indeed.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

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You are a creature of meat and bones, and if you were to dorm down there would be nothing but a lump of flesh in your head to distinguish between you and Joe Baseline.

Bullshit. Studies show that you still have nova-grade resistance to illness and poison when dormed down, as well as other benefits of nova metabolism. I'm far as fuck from joe baseline in that regards.

Also, even if I was dormed down, I still have the happy little option of dorming back up. I got the choice to be juiced or non-juiced. Joe Baseline has nothing similar to that.

There's a big difference between a dormed nova and a baseline. They just tend to blend better, like being in the closet when you're lesbian.

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Please, show me the facts which contradict this.

You're harder to hurt, more resistant to illness and poison, eat several times more than Joe Baseline unless you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't have to eat, can aberrate, can develop new abilities, can exceed human limitations of both body and mind, and almost everyone of those are innate to you without having to pump the juice.

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Now here's my take. We are human. We certainly act human, with individuals among us making the same mistakes that, historically, humanity is so famous for. And with the wise among us going about and doing what wise humans have done for generations. Having a node does not fundamentally change our humanity, only our capabilities and outlook.

And I'm certain you've met plenty of deities, incarnations, and spirits to know how they act, how they error, and how wise they are, eh?

Tell me this, dipshit, how would you know if you met one? Are you expecting some kind of angelic light pouring down from the heavens epiphany where you suddenly realize, oh my god, this isn't a nova, it's a genuine spirit of fire! What would it take to convince you that really were speaking to a spirit and not a nova? How would you know they aren't one in the same?

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I have not yet denied it. I will return every bit of scorn I am given. So please, feel free to continue calling me names and I'll continue to point out how childish you are.

Must really piss you off that this child is kicking your ass in this debate, then. Or, at the very least, holding her motherfucking own against you.

On a side note unrelated to this at all, you'd think the spell-checker on this forum would recognize the word fuck and it's many variations. So many of us use it.

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If I felt the need to attempt suicide in a ritual fashion, in the hope that I would win the 'genetic lottery', I'm sure my outlook on life would be very different indeed.

You look at it as gambling with genes, I look at it as embracing destiny and seizing my potential. That's a fundamental difference between us.

[kestrel404]

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Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:
Bullshit. Studies show that you still have nova-grade resistance to illness and poison when dormed down, as well as other benefits of nova metabolism. I'm far as fuck from joe baseline in that regards.

So, in addition to having the equivalent of a brain tumor, a dormed nova has a faster metabolism and an exceptional immune system. Impressive, but still within the bounds of a racial difference.

But, I'm also fairly certain that this is a chemical process set up by the node, and that a nova that dormed down sufficiently well for a long period of time would lose even these advantages.

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Also, even if I was dormed down, I still have the happy little option of dorming back up. I got the choice to be juiced or non-juiced. Joe Baseline has nothing similar to that.

Yes, yes. I still haven't denied that we clearly possess far greater potential than baselines.

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You're harder to hurt, more resistant to illness and poison, eat several times more than Joe Baseline unless you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't have to eat, can aberrate, can develop new abilities, can exceed human limitations of both body and mind, and almost everyone of those are innate to you without having to pump the juice.

Those are all still manifestations of the power put out by your node. You still haven't explained how, aside from the quantum energy channeled by a lump of flesh in your brain, you are not the same flesh and blood as a baseline.

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Tell me this, dipshit, how would you know if you met one? Are you expecting some kind of angelic light pouring down from the heavens epiphany where you suddenly realize, oh my god, this isn't a nova, it's a genuine spirit of fire! What would it take to convince you that really were speaking to a spirit and not a nova? How would you know they aren't one in the same?

As I've stated before, the difference between men and spirits is spiritual. Any other difference I might name is hearsay.

Now, I will turn the question around. What is the difference between spirit and nova? How would you know if you became a god?

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Must really piss you off that this child is kicking your ass in this debate, then. Or, at the very least, holding her motherfucking own against you.

Holding your own at best, Juri. And no, I'm not bothered, since you are just childish, not a child.

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You look at it as gambling with genes, I look at it as embracing destiny and seizing my potential. That's a fundamental difference between us.

I've never held much stock in destiny. I mean, if life were pre-determined, it would be a heck of a lot easier to see the future. Just ask a pretercog how fixed our destiny is.

Now I put this question to you, Juri. What is so worthy of your scorn about believing ourselves to be inherently human? Why must you re-label yourself as a fundamentally different creature, such as a spirit or god or incarnation, when the term Nova already covers the abilities you've gained?

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOkay.

For most of your answers in that last bit, I'm just gonna say denial just isn't a river in Egypt. You can believe what you want about being just another sap with an extra-chunk of meat in your brain. Have fun counting yourself among the lowest common denominator.

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As I've stated before, the difference between men and spirits is spiritual. Any other difference I might name is hearsay.

That's a logically fucking fallacy called "begging the question." And the question is just what is "spiritual," and how the fuck do you prove the difference between spiritual and non-spiritual?

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Now, I will turn the question around. What is the difference between spirit and nova? How would you know if you became a god?

Not until you qualify your previous answer.

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What is so worthy of your scorn about believing ourselves to be inherently human?

The same thing that's worthy of scorn when a fucking naturist tells a baseline that humanity is nothing but a bunch of monkeys with a little extra brain power. There's one such fellow student of mine I'll think I'll pay a visit to, now that you reminded me of it.

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Why must you re-label yourself as a fundamentally different creature, such as a spirit or god or incarnation, when the term nova already covers the abilities you've gained?

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must unlearn that which you have learned.

[kestrel404]

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Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:
You can believe what you want about being just another sap with an extra-chunk of meat in your brain.

As long as you will acknowledge that the matter of Nova humanity is still open to debate, I'll agree to disagree.

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That's a logically fucking fallacy called "begging the question." And the question is just what is "spiritual," and how the fuck do you prove the difference between spiritual and non-spiritual?

I answered your rhetorical questions as best I could, considdering you asked them with deepest sarcasm. I will continue to do so, even if my answers annoy you.

Simply put, I can't prove by any means the difference between a spirit and a Nova (and by inference, a spirit and a human). If you want to claim you're a spirit, fine.

The question I'm asking you is, how do YOU prove that you're a spirit of fire, as you've claimed? And if you can't prove it, why should we accept your scorn for our opinions?

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The same thing that's worthy of scorn when a fucking naturist tells a baseline that humanity is nothing but a bunch of monkeys with a little extra brain power.

I think your metaphor is skewed. I am not saying "We are humans, but we are also monkeys." That implies that we must have certain appearances, habits and limits common to baselines. Obviously, Novas have appearances, habits, and limits completely outside the baseline norm, even if the majority of Novas resemble baselines in at least two of these categories.

Instead, a good metaphor might be, "We are humans, but we are also animals." Our roots are human, our thinking when we first erupt is human, our basic form is human. We are Novas, but we are also humans.

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Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must unlearn that which you have learned.

You've looped back into the dogma of your initial post, but at least this time you weren't insulting about it.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

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will continue to do so, even if my answers annoy you.

What annoys me is that you haven't answered anything. You give a quality that separates the two but are unable to define that quality. Whatever.

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I think your metaphor is skewed.

Nope the metaphor is fine. In one, a naturist is saying that we are essentially gifted monkeys. In yours, you're saying we're gifted baselines. Neither one are true, dipshit.

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Instead, a good metaphor might be, "We are humans, but we are also animals." ... The question I'm asking you is, how do YOU prove that you're a spirit of fire, as you've claimed?

Using your analogy, dipshit, I could say that I am a nova but I'm also a spirit of fire. I'm saying that the two aren't exclusive of the other.

Nova, spirit, deity, incarnation...we could by any or all of these things. They're just fucking words after all, an attempt to define and categorize something that isn't human and that has power beyond that of humanity.

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You've looped back into the dogma of your initial post, but at least this time you weren't insulting about it.

Hey, you're right, I forgot to give you the finger!

The point is, dipshit, that this body of meat and bones is shell which houses something pretty fucking fantastic, and that for us it's not some fleshy cage. If I need to be fire, I can be, and I don't have to return to a "human" fucking form unless I choose to. You need to unlearn that if looks like a human and talks like a human it must be human, because we can choose to be otherwise, and they are stuck they are. Hell, we are otherwise.

[kestrel404]

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Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:
What annoys me is that you haven't answered anything.

Just because my answers are not what you want to hear, does not mean I haven't offered them.

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You give a quality that separates the two but are unable to define that quality.

spir·it ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sprt)
n.

1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
2. Incorporeal consciousness.
3. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
4. A supernatural being, as:
5. An angel or a demon.
6. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
7. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
8. The essential nature of a person or group.

Those are just the ones that apply here. Pick one. I've already answered the rest, you just chose to ignore it.

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Nope the metaphor is fine. In one, a naturist is saying that we are essentially gifted monkeys. In yours, you're saying we're gifted baselines. Neither one are true, dipshit.

Well, we're back to namecalling now that your arguments are falling apart.

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Using your analogy, dipshit, I could say that I am a nova but I'm also a spirit of fire. I'm saying that the two aren't exclusive of the other.

You can say that, and I can say you're not. I don't care. The question was, how do you prove it? And if you can't prove it, why should we listen to you complain that we don't believe you?

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Nova, spirit, deity, incarnation...we could by any or all of these things. They're just fucking words after all, an attempt to define and categorize something that isn't human and that has power beyond that of humanity.

So why can't we be human? It's just a word, after all.

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Hey, you're right, I forgot to give you the finger!

Yes, we were making progress. If I stop reminding you to be juvenile, you occasionally become downright rational. We can't have that.

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The point is, dipshit, that this body of meat and bones is shell which houses something pretty fucking fantastic, and that for us it's not some fleshy cage.

Actually, you have a point here. But I'm not arguing that baseline and nova are the same. Far from it. But as you say, this shell houses something factastic, in both baseline and nova. If you believe in any form of soul, then you must realize that baselines and novas both have human souls. If not, then we share at least subconsciously a baseline perspective.

[H. 'Machine' Mann]

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Originally posted by Glenn 'Alchemist' Roberts:
I know for a fact that I'm made of the same flesh and bones as a human. I just have an extra bit that lets me channel energy in nifty ways.

Please, show me the facts which contradict this.

The American Medical Journal, 2004 edition and subsequent, wherein the replacement of nervous system tissue with MR coil tissue post eruption is documented in mind numbing detail. This actually has very little to do with the formation of the node itself and provides a number of benefits seperate from those of the node. It is also part of the reason why the success of a "node-ectomy" is considered to be sub-optimal.

I would also take a moment to point out to the onlookers that an MR node doesn't match all criteria of a tumorous growth. It is in fact a gland, not a tumor.

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue.

[Great Monster C]

I was born of human parents. I was raised with human beings. My soul is a creation of God and I am gifted life by him. In his infinite wisdom he has blessed me with this form and with these abilities.

Scientific arguments were used to support claims that Africans were closer to apes than white men and therefore not possessing the same positive qualities possessed by white men. Scientific arguments were used by the Nazis to slaughter millions. I am not impressed by scientific arguments when it comes to defining who is human and who is not.

[kestrel404]

Mr. Mann, thank you for pointing out that article. After I've read it, I will have further comment.

Great Monstr, both of the examples you have cited are examples of politics using science as an excuse. Another example includes the twentieth century tabacco companies 'proving' that smoking is neither addictive nor bad for your lungs. This is not what we're trying to do here. I use science in my arguments because it is what I know, the foundation of my worldview. Juri counters with science because, to be honest, there is scientific basis for a few of her views as well.

[Great Monster C]

You are using science to support your beliefs. The Nazis believed the bullshit they were spinning. The white sociologists and anthropologists believed too. The tobacco companies knew they were full of garbage.

You and Juri believe what you are saying and that is all you are arguing. Belief. Science has become so advanced and the scientific community so diverse that you can find evidence to support nearly any belief. Heck, before Utopia we still had people arguing against global warming.

You believe one thing, she believes another. And, especially when you're talking about the spiritual, neither of you is going to convince the other.

I'm not saying stop, heck no. I think debate is a wonderful thing and applaud the both of you for expending energy in thought. I just wanted to express my opinion too.

[Jager]

Atta boy, GMC. Discourse is the best way to get these issues out in the open.

While the inferiority of Jews and Africans was widely touted, it never had a successful scientific following. Not that some scientists didn't try, though. After all, it isn't important if your science is real, so much as you have a popular following for it.

BTW, there was once a scientific basis for regarding homosexuality as a mental disorder.

It was accepted that mental retardation should be countered with sterilization. Elector-shock therapy could cure mental disorders.

Be careful of any belief system is all I ask.

[Ashnod]

See my reply on the other thread here .

Also, to quote myself:

You see, despite the efforts of numerous baseline scientists and Nova paraphysicians, there are many on both sides of the genetic spectrum that insist that there is no difference between Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Novus. The common declaration that Novas are simply baselines with "a few new tricks" or, as my friend here has been known to quote me as saying, "baselines with really kewl powers," is one that is upheld in alarming numbers. The quicker we eliminate this misconception the better, for it is a far more dangerous one than anyone on either side suspects.

We will first consider the habits of two relatively similar animals, a rattlesnake and a boa constrictor. At first glance, the two of these beings appear to be relatively the same. Both possess comparable exteriors, eye structure, body temperature, methods of propulsion, and musculature, therefore, both are classified "reptiles" and further, both are classified as "snakes." Both are carnivorous, and the preferred meal of each is live prey over carrion, therefore, both are considered predators. Both swallow the prey whole and digest it over a period of days.

We will now examine the method by which they able to kill their prey. The rattlesnake is required to affect the target with naturally occurring venom that is either sprayed onto the body of the prey, or injected into the prey's bloodstream by means of fangs. The boa constrictor, alternatively, wraps its body around the prey and effectively asphyxiates it.

This seemingly insignificant difference is vital to understanding the chasm between baseline and Nova. While the life of a rattlesnake is similar to that of the constrictor, the rattlesnake cannot understand what life is like for the constrictor, having been evolved in such a different fashion for catching prey. The perception of a rattlesnake is dependant upon the idea of affecting its prey with venom, something that the constrictor has no means of comprehending. Likewise, the rattlesnake cannot fathom the idea of crushing the prey with its body, as its body was not designed for such an attack and all instincts that allow the constrictor this methodology are non-existent in the rattlesnake.

Moving onward, we will now compare variations of the animal classified as bird: ostrich, penguin, swan, and hawk. Through difference in climate, temperature, necessity, and innate biology, each of these birds possess vastly different means of both catching prey and means of propulsion. The penguin’s body is adapted to temperatures the ostrich would find fatal. The swan would look at the bipedal speed of the ostrich and wonder why it was necessary. The hawk might find the swan’s long neck and ability to glide upon the surface of a lack as obscene. The penguin might be envious of the hawk’s ability to climb and dive through air currents, but would be thankful for the sleek design of its own form that allows it to maneuver through water.

Each of these animals is suited for a means of living that the other three would find unfavorable. Each of them has abilities the other does not possess. Biologically speaking, yes, they are birds, and we can classify them further in terms of kingdom, genus, phylum, and so on, however, aside from these very clinical divisions, what do these creatures actually have in common?

The hawk will never know the wonder of gliding through cold arctic water alongside a school of fish. The swan will never know the joy the flightless ostrich finds in a bipedal sprint. The ostrich will never know the exhilaration of diving towards the earth in hot pursuit of a mate. The penguin will never know the advantage of a long neck capable of snagging fish below while gliding on the surface above.

It's necessary for all of you to realize that none of the birds would feel particularly inadequate about the fact that they do not possess the qualities of the other, qualities that make the experience of life incomparable between them. Furthermore, and most important, it’s those qualities that make it impossible for one bird to fully grasp what life is like for the other bird.

I’m going to take things in a slightly different direction now. I feel the previous two topics adequately explain the angle I'm working from, so I'm going to skip the long-winded arguments I might have presented concerning the differences between the mammalian dolphin and bat despite their sound based perceptions. I'm also going to skip the "man vs. monkey" argument that so many readers of the Null Manifesto like to throw around like it is the final say in why the two races are distinct.

However, the truth of the matter is both as scientists and philosophers the matter of sentience is where most baselines and Novas are going to draw the line. We aren't so quick to be clinical when species that are self-aware and capable of science become involved. Baselines long have been arrogant enough to assume that any other sentient species will resemble them in some fashion, specifically in terms of science and technology or at least the ability, and more importantly the desire to acquire them.

There is considerable evidence in both the Nova and baseline scientific communities that indicate that dolphins are a sentient species. Certain variations of whales and primates also fall into this area. I'm not going to declare them as sentient or non-sentient myself. However, the resistance to the idea that these species are self-aware mostly stems from the belief that any sentient species will develop sciences, and lacking any visible evidence of this in any of the aforementioned examples, these species tend to be historically dismissed as "lesser" animals by the baseline community. (The Nova scientific community, as far as I understand, tends to lean this way as well, so it is not my intention to exempt us from this point-of-view)

The other consideration is a translatable means of communication. Many expect this to be mathematics as it is a way of defining one's environment, so naturally a sentient species will develop it. The science of mathematics aside, at this time neither baseline nor Nova scientist has developed a machine capable of cataloging and translating the high-pitched song that serves as the audio-portion of dolphin speech. Until we do, it's unlikely dolphins will gain any acceptance as anything more than an "above-average intelligence animal."

Were dolphins to suddenly appear tomorrow sporting some manner of weaponry created by marine science for the purpose of sinking fishing vessels, or, were they able to sit up and speak any number of our tongues, I think we wouldn't be so quick to cling to these ideas. (The fact that some Novas are capable of communicating with these creatures on both a verbal and mental level is something I will cover later.)

How does this apply to the differences between Nova and baseline? Firstly, I will state that there are broad generalizations about all Novas that we can assume at this point. The first is that Novas heal quicker than baselines. They are also more resilient to injury.

Some of us heal quicker than others. I've watched my daughter spontaneously regenerate wounds that would have left three baselines dead, but she is the exception. The general assumption that Novas heal quicker than baselines is widely-believed because it is true. Yes, there are also Novas that for some quirk of nature seem to lack this innate quality, but like my daughter's accelerated healing, these are the exceptions, and not the rule.

For those Novas who are not currently above or below this spectrum, it's documented that we are almost immune to simple disease and infection. Injuries that require months of time in the hospital for baselines to recover from necessitate barely a quarter that, if not less, for Novas. The how and why of this was covered by the Nova paraphysician Tasmin Harver in a live demonstration with Detroit's Kikjack. There are even amongst the Nova community those who can regenerate the tissues of other living things. Project Utopia's Juliette "Panacea" du Chartier comes to mind here, as does Dr. Pinchot’s aforementioned employer Machina. A truly creative use of quantum in this field is possessed by Savannah "Aurifex" O'Shea, who has managed to transform her control of magnetic forces into a field of reconstructive energy that works on the cellular level.

The second is that Novas are capable of great destruction. They have no need of technological weaponry. Look no further than Team Tomorrow to demonstrate this truth. The raw power possessed by any one member of the main teams is simply god-like. Caestus Pax. Skew. Splash. The Ragnarockette. The Apollo Kid. Need I continue? In the field of the paid Elite, you have Pursuer, Totentanz, and Lotus Infinite, just to name three of the most well-known. On the Terat side, you have Geryon, Leviathan, and Divis Mal.

While it is certainly true every Nova is not a force of nature, like these particular individuals, the truth is that many of them are. Some of this is by training, others simply a factor of their eruption. Still others possess abilities that while benign in most circumstances have absolutely devastating effects upon life or the physical world when unleashed in fury.

The third is that Novas are capable of traveling extensive distances quickly. The late Slider, Dominic "Blinker" Thule, and myself: Novas capable of teleportation or opening gateways in space. This does not include those of us who use alternative means of transit. We fly on air currents, wings of feather and fire, propelled by beams of light, and carried on magnetic waves. We run at speeds that the naked baseline eye cannot perceive. We travel through shadow, mirror, earth, mountain, and electricity.

Not all of us, of course, are capable of travel in this fashion, the same as many of us are not living harbingers of mass destruction. Enough of us are no longer dependant on standard methods of transportation that these abilities are often ascribed to us as a whole.

The fourth is that Novas are capable of surviving environments that would kill baselines. I have walked on the bottom of the ocean. I have survived the vacuum of space without life-support. Bathed in volcanic lava. Danced inside a funnel-cloud as it tore it up the countryside. I can name scores of others who have had similar experiences. I'm not going to elaborate on the "bullets and blades having no effect" on the Nova body regardless of how much truth has for many of us.

In other words, where you might wither and decay, we can flourish. What requires the use of million-dollar machinery for you can be performed with our bare hands. What might leave your flesh bleeding and your bones ground to powder is merely an annoyance to us. Where you require clumsy, slug-throwing weapons, we require only our mind.

If this sounds ominous, perhaps haughty, it is simply the truth. Many on both sides understand that we are different. It’s time to accept, and examine, the consequences of that understanding.

How does this relate? It's vitally important, because baseline perception of sentience is more times than not, centered around the idea that an advanced species will have advanced technology. But the fact is that there are motivations that lead to the development of technology that do not exist in the same degrees (or at all) in Novas. The primary motivators for science and technology are warfare, medicine, and exploration. As illustrated in the four preceding sections, most of us fit into at least one, and some of us into all, of those stereotypes. Novas, as a species, do not have the need of technology that baselines do.

While we do have uses for technology, and many us have a passion for artifice and machinery, we don't require it. Nonetheless, while we continue to develop and create new devices, technology is only mimicking abilities possessed by Novas and not a single device exists that Nova abilities cannot perform equally or superior to. Technology, from the position of the Nova species, is merely a crutch to help us along until we, individually and as a species, evolve beyond it. A Nova who cannot yet fly or teleport may take a plane for transportation, but one day, given enough time to evolve, can conceivably develop a way of transportation that doesn't involve the use of a vehicle. Alternatively, technology is a luxury to us. While we might fly from Guam to France, employing the use of a plane would not tire us. A device that sufficiently mimics our abilities is powered separate of the Nova operator, thus does not drain the quantum stored within the Nova.

But the philosophical and anthropological debates this argument may bring up aside, the point remains a matter of perception. To baseline perception, if a species is intelligent but does not require or desire the use of technology to progress, one must consider how advanced that species actually is. Apes and various primates can learn sign language, yes, but by all visible evidence, ape civilization has remained mostly unchanged (minus the intervention of baseline humanity into their natural habitats) since the beginning. This argument cannot apply to Novas, however, as the use of quantum eliminates the necessity for technology, and quite possibly, given enough time for the species to evolve as a whole, eliminate the luxury of technology as well.

At this point, I’m afraid, it’s vital to elaborate on the transformative nature of these perceptions. Biologically speaking, most baseline life can expect more or less the same experience as another member of the species. The potential for baseline life can be measured within easily definable parameters; essentially, limits exist that only unique individuals are capable of surpassing. Athletic performance, length of life-span, physical endurance, and capacity to heal are within comparable limits. Accidents that wound the body beyond repair and the unfortunate defects that sometimes occur at birth aside, baseline life is viewed via five senses, with two legs and two arms, must breathe oxygen to continue life and consume proper ratios of protein, vitamins, and minerals to sustain it.

The perception of baseline life is measured within these definable parameters. Matter is viewed as static unless environmental or artificial means are used to alter its state. Flight is not obtainable unless technology is utilized. Weather is random and uncontrollable. The baseline body and mind are only capable of influencing its surroundings to an infinitesimal degree without the use of tools.

The introduction of something completely new into the normal parameters alters the perception of the individual in question. A sixth sense, in most cases, a form of clairvoyance or precognition or in rarer instances, minor telepathy or telekinesis, will radically alter the way in which a baseline must perceive his or her life. Unless one or both of the child’s parents is also a psychic, this individual will grow up completely alone, having to endure the experiences of this new sense without anyone to relate to or with whom to find comfort. It’s not possible for the parents to understand otherwise; many children end seeing psychologists or put into the care of mental health “experts” who have no more means of assisting the child than the parents did.

One has only to look at the lives these individuals tend to lead. Most of them do not live “normal” lives insofar as most baselines exist. Most of them exist on the periphery of society, living in seclusion as “fortune tellers” or “mystics,” often relying on their sixth sense as a means of income. Most of these psychics tend to become heavily involved with either religion or mysticism, and much of their perception of who they are and what the world is comes from the experience of possessing this sixth sense. Rare is the individual that exists within mainstream society that possesses such an ability, and those that do tend to do succeed by ignoring their sixth sense.

The existence of such a sense completely alters the means that individual views their world. While it may seem like simple source of information, such as a telephone or a computer, the truth remains that it is far more than that. After a while, that ability becomes just as much a part of the individual as sight or sound. It colors how he or she views their family and peers, their memories and their outlooks, and their beliefs about potential, life, and afterlife.

It’s not possible to understand what it is like for these individuals unless you also possess a similar ability. Try to imagine what the ability to see auras would be like. The photography involved gives only the barest fraction of what the experience would be like, revealing only color. The same circumstances arise when considering special effects/CGI even when a psychic is present as a technical advisor: it is merely a simulacrum and not the event itself. This conveys nothing of the insight delivered, nothing of the intuition or awareness of one’s surroundings gained. Most importantly, nothing of the dependence, much like normal baseline dependence on sight, that eventually develops on this sixth sense, nor the distinct alienation that occurs upon realizing so few in the world share this ability, which is why so many psychics tend to form their own communities and de facto societies.

Inevitably, someone will introduce the “deaf” or “blind” argument as a counter to this. Does the loss of a sense, or a limb, therefore produce a unique perception analogous to the addition of a sense? The answer is no. The loss of a sense common to all members of the species is not the same as the addition of one absent in the majority. Aside from the obvious argument that any one member of the species can become blind through accident or disease but spontaneous emergence of a sixth sense is perhaps as uncommon as quantum eruption, it’s possible to simulate the loss of a sense in an other healthy individual. It is possible to glimpse what the loss of sight would be like. It may not be possible to grasp adapting to a lifestyle in which that sense is denied, but the experience of blindness is.

Introducing quantum abilities into this mix magnifies this situation by an immeasurable amount. The ability to control molecular phenomena completely alters the perception of reality of the one who wields it. Imagine being able to transform wood into steam by simply willing it to be. Or steel into gold, or lithium into americium. The physical world suddenly takes on a very dynamic condition, a condition that a baseline, who perceives the world in much more static means, is unable to relate to. While not all Novas are capable of this degree of manipulation, others possesses analogous abilities: control of fire, water, air, plasma, temporal phenomena, spatial phenomena, weather, entropy, gravity, etc, and those that don’t still possess other abilities far beyond that of non-erupted perception. Try to imagine, for example, what life would be life if you could communicate on an intimate level with every known species of animal life, such as the aforementioned dolphin. Imagine how that would alter your perception of the world. Would it be possible to view them as food? Perhaps the feral nature of the food chain would change you, making you more predatory. Can you honestly say you can accurately comprehend exactly what evolution you would undergo as a result? Theorizing is one matter, but having honest and unbiased comprehension is entirely another.

Conversely, once you have gained this perception, it becomes part of you as assuredly as breath or heartbeat. You cannot ignore it, cannot pretend it doesn’t exist, much like the time-honored scenario about walking backstage and seeing the performers when they are not in the spotlight. See the sets as merely backdrops and not real locations. Once you understand how something works, you cannot pretend it works independent of those influences. The same occurs for a Nova. It doesn’t have to be world-altering power such as the control of molecular phenomena. Simply the ability to see into the infrared spectrum will separate a Nova from baseline, as will any number of “lesser” thought of quantum abilities. To this, I point to Project Utopia’s Geisha, who while appearing as cordial and diplomatic as any baseline, moves through social circles as easily as Pratima Basham moves through air. This isn’t even taking into account the supra-intelligent faction of Novas, such as James “Prodigy” Meehan, and the perception of reality that develops as a result of such increased logistical and creative capacity.

We are different. It's a bold and frightening step to actually accept that, you know. When our next generation comes into its own, it will be different experience for them, too. The world will always have had Novas in it. They won't have this transitional period that is causing so much dissention between our species.

Personally, I think it’s all a matter of fear. Baseline fear is easily understood: admitting that Novas are a separate race invites all kinds of debate on the nature of evolution, divine right, manifest destiny, and simple theology. Nova fear, however, is entirely different. It’s one thing to theorize on being separate, to theorize that you are different from your mother and father and that you are living in a world entirely different from theirs, and that despite how much they love you, they can never really understand you. They have no basis to even begin comprehending what life as a Nova would be like, unless you have a Nova parent, which is a topic for a later dissertation. Accepting this changes everything. Once you accept the differences, everything changes irrevocably. It’s terrifying to be a trailblazer, to forge a path no one else has yet to walk, or to find so few walking similar paths: to understand that you are the first in a new chapter of history.

As a new life-form, Novas are in their infancy; not even a half-century has passed since their introduction en masse to the planet. Nevertheless it has changed more since March 23, 1998 than it has in any other decade span, save perhaps the theoretical meteor strike that might have eliminated the dinosaurs. It will be fascinating to see what history says of this period of time on the bicentennial anniversary of N-Day, provided both species survive to see it.

[Jager]

On the plus side, since neither one of us are dumb animals, baselines and novas can chose to live together.

Not saying its going to be easy, but in a world were humanity is blessed with free-will, and novas can do anything, why shouldn't we?

And, as a laughing friend of mine once said, if you don't like the show, you can always leave. No reason to burn down the house.

[kestrel404]

...

Ashnod, that felt like the equivalent of using a tac-nuke to swat a fly. I wish I could argue you on some of that, but I'm afraid that if I started, I would be forced to concede several points which would (each) get me fired from my current job.

I will give this some thought.

[Vox Via]

To say novas are not human is something I agree with.To say novas are gods,serves no reason,or logic beyond stroking one's ego.We are novas,not gods.For we are no more gods than humans are to the rest the animals.

Yes,our abilities change our perception in ways baselines may not be able to even dream of.But their tools do the same from them over apes.Could an ape understand the idea that with a hunk of metals,plastics,and gasses a man can destroy mountains? Or with a set of ropes and pulleys,one man can lift as much as ten men?

No,we are not gods.No we are not devine in any means.To those who think we are I have this to say, Pride comes before the fall.

[Interceptor]

Vanguard brings up a pretty decent point here. I'm no intellectual, there's no way I can compete with some of the minds here. But simple wisdom can really shed a little light on this, as well as looking through history. 'Pride comes before the fall' is spot on. Look at most myths and legends. The gods and heroes and villains, the ones with the most power and the biggest ego, they often get brought down regardless. The Roman gods killed their Titan parents, and then later would fade into just legend. Achilles was unbeatable except for one spot, and he died. The Norse gods knew they were doomed. Most of the legends all show how those with the greatest power and ego all fell. Except one. The humblest but most powerful of all.

Sorry to get all religious. I find myself being a bit more so lately, to try to help sort this whole thing out. I'm not a god. I'm not even going to entertain that. The history books and legends are filled with the failures of those who thought that way.

[Preston]

Baselines long have been arrogant enough to assume that any other sentient species will resemble them in some fashion, specifically in terms of science and technology or at least the ability, and more importantly the desire to acquire them.

No. For most of human existence, we saw everything as having some sort of sentience and sought to understand it. We looked at the natural world and thought to learn from it and gaining better understanding of ourselves in it. Humans are more than capable of seeing sentience in non-human forms.

Yes, we heal quickly. Some of us heal a whole lot quicker than others, in an equal or greater ratio. Does that make different novas a different race, incapable of understanding one another? I don't think so.

I have a "sixth" sense, and I relate to my extended family just fine. My son, who is also a nova, doesn't have my extrasensory abilities, but we also relate quite well. My police colleagues, both nova and non-nova, also relate to me well. My senses are neither a hindrance, nor a benefit in that regard. Its something called experience and trust. I've earned theirs, and they have earned mine. Its a very human thing.

The existence of such a sense completely alters the means that individual views their world. While it may seem like simple source of information, such as a telephone or a computer, the truth remains that it is far more than that. After a while, that ability becomes just as much a part of the individual as sight or sound.

Correct. My powers are very much a part of my daily existence.

It colors how he or she views their family and peers, their memories and their outlooks, and their beliefs about potential, life, and afterlife.

No. Not for me, anyway.

Nor, do I feel that my abilities alienate me from society. Except for pushing your own views and agendas upon the rest of us, this "insight" of yours is groundless and wishful thinking on your part.

They have no basis to even begin comprehending what life as a Nova would be like,

Incorrect. We still share cognitive abilities, shared senses, and levels of understanding that a shared society provides. If you isolate the next generation from humanity, then yes, you would be correct. Raise any child in a closet for 12 years, and you will get something abnormal.

You consistently ignore the fact that we were once all living the same life and sharing the same society. All novas were once 'human' (call it unerupted nova if you like). Somehow, in your opinion, despite all this power and perception we have inherited, we lose touch with that.

I chose not to go down your path. It is self-serving and arrogant. I chose to also trail blaze, but along a path of cooperation and mutual growth. Humanity has never before had to live with such power in its midst. You would deny our brothers and sisters that experience.

Ashnod, you are just another nova saying "we're not better than you, just different", then going on about all the special things novas can do that baselines can't, all the extra things novas see that they can't, how novas can alter the world in ways they can't, but somehow, that doesn't make us better than they are in your eyes.

Yeah. Right.

Very eloquent. Very well thought out. You are an excellent spokeswoman for your cause. That doesn't make you right, though.

Of course, by adhering to your beliefs, you are driving a rift between novas and baselines, which is what you are really all about. After all, if other novas succeeded in living peacefully among baselines, it would challenge all your well-thought out beliefs.

[Ashnod]

1: No. Humans anthropomorphize objects and creatures, assign them human qualities out of sentimentality or sympathy. At no point has humanity recognized sentience in other creatures, though some assign it to higher primates. In the animal kingdom, humanity prides itself on being the only fully self-aware being and in doing so has stripped the planet bare of a number of species it has considered its lessors with higher power or divine authority as the right given to decide. Yes, a factions of humanity have clamored for changes to this legacy, but the legacy endures today.

My words in the passage you quote reference the need to acquire technology and develop tools, and that humanity believes that an another sentient, presumably extraterrestrial, intelligence will be similar to them in this need.

Coupling this to the passage of about healing, the intent of it all is that Novas are capable of evolving beyond the needs of medicine and technology as humanity knows both on an individual level and on a speciatic level, as the ability to do so is innate within us all.

Novas relate well to each other, better than baseline-to-Nova or Nova-to-baseline, regardless of how their perceptions have evolved, because we all share that innate quality.

2: You relate to your colleagues just fine? Somehow, given the nature of how your quantum manifests itself, I highly doubt that. If the experience at the Chill Factor release party is any indication, I do not think you're being completely honest about how they feel about you, especially if they have experienced it firsthand.

3: Groundless and wishful thinking, hmm. This forum is missing two members, V and Lemmy Chillmeister, who have both admitted to these same feelings. You may continue telling me that I have no basis for what I state, but we both know it to be otherwise.

4: It has nothing to do with raising a child in a closet, and you well know that. Raise a child expecting to be a Nova, without any of my philosophy, and you will still end up with a very different child than one raised expecting to be a baseline. Merely the fact that they will grow up knowing one day they will have quantum control, if they aren't born with it from the get go, is going to separate them irrevocably from baseline humanity.

The beliefs and sentimentality you cling to belong to the first generation because most of us gained quantum control without anticipating it. We are "quantum accidents," to use Salamander's term, and the change that I am warning you of is already evident within her.

With the second generation, this attachment to our genetic ancestry will fade. With the third and fourth possibly vanish. In ten generations, the changes will be drastic enough that I am certain that you, and others like you, will be terrified.

5: How intriguing. In a sense, you espouse the same beliefs that Violette D'Aronique did, and yet your scathing commentary of her own feelings led to her abandoning this forum.

6: Our differences make Novas a superior animal, biologically. I have never denied that. Nor do baseline doctors and biologists.

When I say that Novas aren't "better" than baseline humanity, I am saying that morally and spiritually, we are not intrinsically superior. It is not given onto Novakind the right to decide the fate of the baseline nation. We are not their masters, but we are also not their saviors or their messiahs.

Do not twist my meaning again.

7: As I told Sakura-chan many months ago, the Teragen and the Null Manifesto did not give birth to the transhuman movement. We gave it a face. If it had not been us, it would have someone else. Perhaps it would have been Violette, who preaches something far closer to what you believe than you are willing to admit to.

I do not mind being proven wrong. If I am incorrect, and within one century things are harmonious and peaceful between the races and we did not have to go through a war to achieve it, I will be the first to admit you were correct.

Saying that, I stated on August 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM I would not talk to you again here after our initial discussion, because you accused me of using "Because I said so" as my rational. I broke that vow once when you showed promise of being less blind.

However, with your "groundless and wishful thinking on your part" comment I see this is not the case. Even Mr. Roberts, who disagrees with me, admits that he would be forced to concede several points to me that would jeopardize his career. I had hoped by now you would be more honest with yourself.

As I said when I made that vow, I will let you have whatever last word you wish to attack me with me on this matter. For the foreseeable future, I shall not be speaking with you further on this.

[Vox Via]

Now,I could be wrong here.I have been before ,but from what I can tell Ashnod,you are like many others members of this cause.You believe in us being right,because they are wrong.This is a dangerous ideal,and leads to more problems than anwsers.Joining a cause because you hate another set of ideals,breads hate.

Hating something that is lesser of you is pointless.So,if you think novas are better than humans,then how can you have so much hate for them?Or should I say this,if you have so much hate for novas,how can you say that you are better than them?

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
The beliefs and sentimentality you cling to belong to the first generation because most of us gained quantum control without anticipating it. We are "quantum accidents," to use Salamander's term, and the change that I am warning you of is already evident within her.

WOOO-HOOO! I've started a new term and it's getting out there!

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
Just because my answers are not what you want to hear, does not mean I haven't offered them.

Actually, you've haven't given me any answers, dipshit. I'm asking for how YOU define spiritual, as it applies to YOU being able to tell the difference between a nova and a spirit. Listing the damn dictionary is meaningless in this instance. The ONLY one that is really relevant to our discussion is 4 and 5 maybe 6,A supernatural being, as: Angel or a Demon. The rest are fucking other definitions.

Keep saying it's the "spiritual" without qualifying that. Come on, do it. Once you qualify it, tell me how you'd be able to tell the difference. Doesn't matter if I don't like the answer, just give me one.

Quote:

Well, we're back to namecalling now that your arguments are falling apart

Back to my childish, juvenile behavior. Yep. But my arguments are still sound, and everyone here knows it.

Quote:

You can say that, and I can say you're not. I don't care. The question was, how do you prove it? And if you can't prove it, why should we listen to you complain that we don't believe you?

Maybe because I'm capable of performing feats just as spirits of fire have been in myth? Novas in the past might have been called spirits, after all. It's just a name.

Quote:

So why can't we be human? It's just a word, after all.

Because humans can't do what we can. Simple as that. We ain't their equals and we shouldn't be equating ourselves with them.

Quote:

But I'm not arguing that baseline and nova are the same. Far from it. But as you say, this shell houses something factastic, in both baseline and nova. If you believe in any form of soul, then you must realize that baselines and novas both have human souls. If not, then we share at least subconsciously a baseline perspective.

Actually, dipshit, I'm not talking about soul at all. But since you bring this up, how the hell do you just say that novas have "human" souls? How would you know if all souls aren't human. And speak for yourself on the subconscious perspective thing. Have fun staying grounded while the rest of us learn to fly, chickadee.

[Wakinyan]

You sure have a way of speaking that makes people want to like you Juri. (Which is a shame really because you're cute.)

I just thought I would throw my thought into this soul concept. Nothing in existence has more or less soul than anything else. A rock, a tree, a pile of horse crap or even me. We are all apart of what god is no more, no less. How does that relate to Novas? I am not sure really. It's almost like we have tapped into the consciousness of god in order to do what we do.

Sorry if I am sounding like a new age spiritual freak but I think anyone who is a Nova and truly pondered their powers on a deeper level has at one time had to wonder how we fit into this universe and I am only trying to fit it into a perspective I have grown up with.

[kestrel404]

Quote:

Originally posted by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon:
The ONLY one that is really relevant to our discussion is 4 and 5 maybe 6,A supernatural being, as: Angel or a Demon. The rest are fucking other definitions.

Actually, the most relevant from my point of view are 1,2 and 8. As I said before, I can not tell the difference, spiritually, between a Human and a Nova. Can you?

Quote:

Maybe because I'm capable of performing feats just as spirits of fire have been in myth? Novas in the past might have been called spirits, after all. It's just a name.

So you can perform feats like historical beings out of mythology. Fine. But you match the description of 'sorcerer' far better than 'salamander'. And I seem much closer to 'alchemist' than 'djinn'. There are humans in mythology who wield similar power to what we use today.

Quote:

Because humans can't do what we can. Simple as that. We ain't their equals and we shouldn't be equating ourselves with them.

Only by your definition. If, perchance, you mean those humans who do not have a node, certainly. My definition of human still includes novas.

Quote:

But since you bring this up, how the hell do you just say that novas have "human" souls? How would you know if all souls aren't human.

It is something I believe. Simple as that.

Quote:

And speak for yourself on the subconscious perspective thing. Have fun staying grounded while the rest of us learn to fly, chickadee.

You grew up as a baseline (or 'enerupted nova'), spent your formative years around humans. No matter how hard you struggle, you will always remember being human.

Ashnod,
I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from. Have you ever read about a problem in robotics called "the Uncanny Valley"? It applies here as well.

But a few things in your argument give me hope. We are very close to being human, we share the majority of our senses and physical structure with humanity, so there is a great deal of common ground, even in the long term.

Also, you seem claim that humanity will some day come to depend on us instead of technology (or they currently do depend on us). Looking back at history, I must ask you, how is that different? Humanity has always depended on its leaders, but never exclusively. They will depend on us, but they will advance their technology as well.

Finally, because you are forgetting at least one aspect of our relationship with humanity: we come from them. There is an eruption every few days now, and they have not been slowing down since N-Day. We will never be wholly seperate from baselines as long as the Nova gene survives in their population.

[Preston]

What? I disagree with your tripe, so you split. Is the whole movement so weak that you can't stand it when someone stands up to you?

Damn. How pathetic.

1: No. Humans anthropomorphize objects and creatures, assign them human qualities out of sentimentality or sympathy.

Talk to some native American spiritualists. They would disagree with you.

When Polynesian Islanders prayed to the sharks, they full expected that their prayers would be heard, if not accepted.

In a modern, scientific explanation, they were wrong. It didn't mean they didn't see things that way. For the vast majority of our history, it was accepted that the world was alive.

What about devote Buddhists who sweep insects out of their paths so as not to step on them. They believe that even the lowliest insect houses a human soul/spirit. I guess you are telling them that they are wrong, too.

At no point has humanity recognized sentience in other creatures, though some assign it to higher primates.

Wrong, but I already covered that.

In the animal kingdom, humanity prides itself on being the only fully self-aware being and in doing so has stripped the planet bare of a number of species it has considered its lessors with higher power or divine authority as the right given to decide. Yes, a factions of humanity have clamored for changes to this legacy, but the legacy endures today.

Modern Judeo-Christian thought, yes.

By the way, extinction happens. This time, it was the introduction of a superior species into a new environment, as opposed to environmental changes.

My words in the passage you quote reference the need to acquire technology and develop tools, and that humanity believes that an another sentient, presumably extraterrestrial, intelligence will be similar to them in this need.

Man's greatest survival mechanism has always been its ability to reason and create. Be it a philosophy, or a tool.

Coupling this to the passage of about healing, the intent of it all is that Novas are capable of evolving beyond the needs of medicine and technology as humanity knows both on an individual level and on a specific level, as the ability to do so is innate within us all.

Until some quantum-based illness comes along. Nature has always found a way.

Smallpox kills how many Western Europeans? Not many, anymore. They evolved natural defenses against it.

Novas relate well to each other, better than baseline-to-Nova or Nova-to-baseline, regardless of how their perceptions have evolved, because we all share that innate quality.

The same innate Quality? What would that be?

2: You relate to your colleagues just fine? Somehow, given the nature of how your quantum manifests itself, I highly doubt that.

Well, you've been wrong before.

If the experience at the Chill Factor release party is any indication, I do not think you're being completely honest about how they feel about you, especially if they have experienced it firsthand.

I pissed people off before I became a nova. I still do (surprise, surprise). My aberrations are something new that people around me learn to deal with not everyone does. Not everyone can accept my sparkling personality, either.

3: Groundless and wishful thinking, hmm. This forum is missing two members, V and Lemmy Chillmeister, who have both admitted to these same feelings. You may continue telling me that I have no basis for what I state, but we both know it to be otherwise.

No. You and I both see the same facts, but draw different conclusions. The fact that two terats support you is hardly surprising.

Wait, I know that V isn't a declared terat. She's a Transhumanist. The difference would be?

4: It has nothing to do with raising a child in a closet, and you well know that.

Not really? How many children have you raised? If you teach them decent values such as to care for themselves and others, and to be considerate, and to help others in need, they turn out okay. Are those baseline values?

Raise a child expecting to be a Nova, without any of my philosophy, and you will still end up with a very different child than one raised expecting to be a baseline. Merely the fact that they will grow up knowing one day they will have quantum control, if they aren't born with it from the get go, is going to separate them irrevocably from baseline humanity.

How so? Are you holding up your daughter as an example? One case. If you teach children a white supremacist doctrine, they are going to grow up thinking that way. What does your desire to force feed children your dogma prove?

I would prefer we let our children decide how they want to interact with one another. Growing up is hard enough without carrying our parent's baggage.

The beliefs and sentimentality you cling to belong to the first generation because most of us gained quantum control without anticipating it. We are "quantum accidents," to use Salamander's term, and the change that I am warning you of is already evident within her.

Its also evident in the children who kill themselves trying to become novas.

A better question though is why do you want to discard those beliefs and sentimentalities? What screwed you up so badly that you see no hope in mankind?

With the second generation, this attachment to our genetic ancestry will fade. With the third and fourth possibly vanish. In ten generations, the changes will be drastic enough that I am certain that you, and others like you, will be terrified.

Nice theory. I guess it will depend on who raises them. Certainly I will be terrified by some of the changes that will happen. I imagine my ancestor from ten generations ago would be pretty horrified by me, and the world I live in.

Hell, women vote and own property. Imagine that?

Quite frankly, I want future generations to grow and expand. The price tag doesn't have to be their humanity.

5: How intriguing. In a sense, you espouse the same beliefs that Violette D'Aronique did, and yet your scathing commentary of her own feelings led to her abandoning this forum.

I am not as weak as she is, I guess. I take a licking and keep on coming. I don't expect applause, or blanket agreement.\

Again, we saw the same facts, but drew very different conclusions.

6: Our differences make Novas a superior animal, biologically. I have never denied that. Nor do baseline doctors and biologists.

Fine. Were do you see that distinction leading?

When I say that Novas aren't "better" than baseline humanity, I am saying that morally and spiritually, we are not intrinsically superior. It is not given onto Novakind the right to decide the fate of the baseline nation. We are not their masters, but we are also not their saviors or their messiahs.

Fine. Are you conceding then that are at least two avenues that baselines can contribute to novas? In the realms of morality and sprituality.

Do not twist my meaning again.

What is your meaning?

7: As I told Sakura-chan many months ago, the Teragen and the Null Manifesto did not give birth to the transhuman movement. We gave it a face. If it had not been us, it would have someone else.

Thank you, God. At least one other person sees the similarities between transhumanism and teras.

Perhaps it would have been Violette, who preaches something far closer to what you believe than you are willing to admit to.

Sorry, I know what I believe, and V's beliefs are not it. I don't think I could be that egocentric.

,,

I do not mind being proven wrong. If I am incorrect, and within one century things are harmonious and peaceful between the races and we did not have to go through a war to achieve it, I will be the first to admit you were correct.

How can they be? The teragen is leading us into a race war. Pitting novas against baselines, with the whole planet being put at risk.

If you truly believed in sublime separation of the species, you would leave this planet and never return, but, you and yours are still here.

Saying that, I stated on August 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM I would not talk to you again here after our initial discussion, because you accused me of using "Because I said so" as my rational. I broke that vow once when you showed promise of being less blind.

It still is. You see the path leading down one road, and I see us have more options.

However, with your "groundless and wishful thinking on your part" comment I see this is not the case. Even Mr. Roberts, who disagrees with me, admits that he would be forced to concede several points to me that would jeopardize his career.

I have always thought you were eloquent in the defense of your beliefs. I am hoping Mr. Roberts will see past that.

I had hoped by now you would be more honest with yourself.

Do not confuse compassion and understanding for my fellow novas as capitulation on my behalf. Who else argues with you? Challenges your party line here?

I am being honest with myself. Your path leads to bloodshed and disaster. If you don't see that, more is the pity. It is not impossible that you are a blind intellectual, seeing only The Plan, and none of the pitfalls.

How about this? If in fifty years, you and your fellows have not led us into a war, I will admit I am wrong.

As I said when I made that vow, I will let you have whatever last word you wish to attack me with me on this matter. For the foreseeable future, I shall not be speaking with you further on this.

Fine. Crawl back into your hole at the first sign of someone disagreeing with your so-called Wisdom. Your reasons for ending this debate are rather juvenile, but I can accept that. Too many people suck up to you. A real debate, were you might have to face up to the errors in your conclusions, is something you don't have the stomach for. I understand that.

[Vox Via]

Preston, do you fear civil discussions?I think novas are as close to humans as humans are to apes.Human can relate to both, but in both cases one party will find something lacking.You may try to hide it now, or it may come later for you.I in a way wish i was wrong, but from what I have seen..I am not.

[Wakinyan]

Looked like both sides where being pretty civil ro me Vanguard. Ash is kinda inflexible but she is allowed to be.

[Vox Via]

They may be, but that is only keeping in mind that they are talking about religion.That being said, the fact they are not killing each, or talking of killing each other gives a lot of civility.

But my point is this, Both Preston and Ashnod, have talked to each other on this topic before,and they are repeating what they have already have said.

[Alex Craft]

From Preston:

"Man's greatest survival mechanism has always been its ability to reason and create. Be it a philosophy, or a tool."

I'm somewhat conflicted on this myself, but I'd have to agree with Ashnod on this one. Your above statement is absolutely accurate. However, a nova's greatest survival mechanism is to simply ... adapt. Not to build something, but to become something. Bit of a difference, no?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Preston:
Is the whole movement so weak that you can't stand it when someone stands up to you?
Damn. How pathetic.


I, myself, would like to spend my time speaking with someone who that will disagreeing with me, doesn't use tactics as "because you said so." You are an intelligent man, Mr. Preston. You obviously know that I am simply not "making this up" despite how much it revolts you. I expect you to disagree with me. I encourage you to disagree with me. What we are speaking about is delicate and needs to be discussed.

However, I have no intention of playing a game of politics where you're so focused on destroying my point of view that you will resort to such patent falsehoods as "wishful thinking."

There are exceptions to every rule. These are exceptions, and not the rule or the generalization. You know this, and should know better. Exceptions do not change the way the majority of situations play themselves out.


Talk to some native American spiritualists. They would disagree with you. When Polynesian Islanders prayed to the sharks, they full expected that their prayers would be heard, if not accepted.
In a modern, scientific explanation, they were wrong. It didn't mean they didn't see things that way. For the vast majority of our history, it was accepted that the world was alive.

Your confusing sentience with divinity and spirituality. You don't pray to beings you consider your equals or pay homage to something without expecting some manner of recompense.

What about devote Buddhists who sweep insects out of their paths so as not to step on them. They believe that even the lowliest insect houses a human soul/spirit. I guess you are telling them that they are wrong, too.


You're confusing the Buddhist philosophy as I understand it. Buddhists believe that all living beings have an equivalent soul, not that they are necessarily "human" in nature.

Nonetheless, you are speaking in exceptions, and not the majority. Give me an example where humanity at large, a time where the majority of the planet, believed and practiced this.

Wrong, but I already covered that.

Religion is your defense, then? Interesting. Perhaps I should have specified that I meant in the scientific community. Apologies for not being clear on that.

Modern Judeo-Christian thought, yes.
By the way, extinction happens. This time, it was the introduction of a superior species into a new environment, as opposed to environmental changes.

The only species that has thus far done it with such abandon and with the capacity to do so.


Man's greatest survival mechanism has always been its ability to reason and create. Be it a philosophy, or a tool.

Alex has covered this. We do not require tools, as a species. We are biologically capable of adapting to the circumstance, given time and experience.


Until some quantum-based illness comes along. Nature has always found a way. Smallpox kills how many Western Europeans? Not many, anymore. They evolved natural defenses against it.

No, they evolved a vaccine which prevents it, one that must be administered to be effective. There is no evolution there. What you are referring to is the killing off of a micro-organism by the loss of a suitable host species by the constant vaccination of the host species.

Once the vaccination stops, the species becomes vulnerable again. Why do you think small pox was regarded as such a threat a bio-chemical weapon?

This comparison is highly flawed.

Novas relate well to each other, better than baseline-to-Nova or Nova-to-baseline, regardless of how their perceptions have evolved, because we all share that innate quality.

To change and evolve. To have perceptions granted outside of the baseline norm by the abilities we possess due to quantum control.

Well, you've been wrong before.

I doubt this is one of those times.

I pissed people off before I became a nova. I still do (surprise, surprise). My aberrations are something new that people around me learn to deal with not everyone does. Not everyone can accept my sparkling personality, either.

I am assuming that some you were on relatively good terms with before aberrating now shy away from you. I find it highly coincidental if you say that this is not the case.

I cannot equate the reactions of aberrations with your personality alienating people. One is a reaction to what you are, the other is a reaction to what you say and do. You have conscious control over how you treat people.

No. You and I both see the same facts, but draw different conclusions. The fact that two terats support you is hardly surprising.
Wait, I know that V isn't a declared terat. She's a Transhumanist. The difference would be?

You would have to ask her. That is her philosophy, and not my own. Either way, to the best of my knowledge, neither of them are Terats and believing that you are not human does not make you a Terat.

Not really? How many children have you raised? If you teach them decent values such as to care for themselves and others, and to be considerate, and to help others in need, they turn out okay. Are those baseline values?

Are we speaking about morality now or biological separatism? At no point have I stated that our children or our children's children would be mindless killers. I stated they will not think of themselves as baselines, nor equate themselves as such.

If I did not believe peaceful co-existence between us was possible, Preston, I would have done none of what I have accomplished in the past years. I would have instead been a warrior.

How so? Are you holding up your daughter as an example? One case. If you teach children a white supremacist doctrine, they are going to grow up thinking that way. What does your desire to force feed children your dogma prove?
I would prefer we let our children decide how they want to interact with one another. Growing up is hard enough without carrying our parent's baggage.

Apep is not the only child born of an erupted Nova in existence. I have met and dealt with several of them. How many have you been with?

Its also evident in the children who kill themselves trying to become novas. A better question though is why do you want to discard those beliefs and sentimentalities? What screwed you up so badly that you see no hope in mankind?

Twisting my words again. I continue to reiterate that I believe the baseline nation not only has the right to exist but should be able to determine their own path.

I am not saying that sentimentality itself as a value will be discarded. I am saying the sentimentality of thinking yourself as human will vanish.

Nice theory. I guess it will depend on who raises them. Certainly I will be terrified by some of the changes that will happen. I imagine my ancestor from ten generations ago would be pretty horrified by me, and the world I live in.
Hell, women vote and own property. Imagine that?
Quite frankly, I want future generations to grow and expand. The price tag doesn't have to be their humanity.

The humanity they "possess" is only in your mind. We are not human. We do not possess "humanity." That does not mean that we are compassionless, emotionless, evil, and "inhumane" creatures. However, if that is your definition of humanity, of being compassionate, then yes, we possess that. I do not believe that is the definition of humanity that you were applying to this situation, however.

The societal changes you speak of above are not the same as the evolutionary ones I am.

I am not as weak as she is, I guess. I take a licking and keep on coming. I don't expect applause, or blanket agreement. Again, we saw the same facts, but drew very different conclusions.

Perhaps.

Fine. Were do you see that distinction leading?

To outright hostility between the quantum born and the baseline nation. These tensions will continue to escalate unless both sides understand, recognize, and appreciate the differences between us. The two species are not the same. We are harming baseline society, making them jealous, dependant, and resentful.


Fine. Are you conceding then that are at least two avenues that baselines can contribute to novas? In the realms of morality and sprituality.
No.


What is your meaning?

We are a different species, and that stating we are no better than a baseline with extra abilities is dangerous for both sides.


Thank you, God. At least one other person sees the similarities between transhumanism and teras.

Not even close. Teras is far different from transhumanism. But as you do not really know Teras, only the Null Manifesto, I did not expect you to know this.


Sorry, I know what I believe, and V's beliefs are not it. I don't think I could be that egocentric.

Closer to what you believe. Not necessarily what you believe.

How can they be? The teragen is leading us into a race war. Pitting novas against baselines, with the whole planet being put at risk.
If you truly believed in sublime separation of the species, you would leave this planet and never return, but, you and yours are still here.

If the Teragen left, others would still be there to fill the hole we left. We are not the problem. We were not the only ones to feel as we do. We are the first to decide something needed to be done about it.

This race-war you speak of will happen regardless of us.

It still is. You see the path leading down one road, and I see us have more options.

Mine is not the only road, and I will freely admit that.

I have always thought you were eloquent in the defense of your beliefs. I am hoping Mr. Roberts will see past that.

Eloquence is not a substitute for substance. If what I said did not have significant meaning, my words would have made no impact.


Do not confuse compassion and understanding for my fellow novas as capitulation on my behalf. Who else argues with you? Challenges your party line here? I am being honest with myself. Your path leads to bloodshed and disaster. If you don't see that, more is the pity. It is not impossible that you are a blind intellectual, seeing only The Plan, and none of the pitfalls. How about this? If in fifty years, you and your fellows have not led us into a war, I will admit I am wrong.

Curious. I somehow feel that if this war happens, you will blame us regardless of how it starts, rather than admitting other factors might be involved.

I do not seek your capitulation. I do not believe it is possible to change what you believe.


Fine. Crawl back into your hole at the first sign of someone disagreeing with your so-called Wisdom. Your reasons for ending this debate are rather juvenile, but I can accept that. Too many people suck up to you. A real debate, were you might have to face up to the errors in your conclusions, is something you don't have the stomach for. I understand that.

Do not believe that I do not have the stomach for a debate. What I do not have, however, is a taste for the types of tactics you just used above. I continue to be willing to engage your perspective, however, I will not be subject to misleading statements and subterfuge. If you cannot debate me without using the above vitriol, then your arguments do not hold the weight you believe them to. Let the merit of your arguments stand alone without dirty politics.

[Singularity]

Here are some basic questions for everyone:

Are novas superior to baselines?

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

NOTE: these questions do not represent my views. I am just trying to bring the discussion to the most basic level.

[kestrel404]

Are novas superior to baselines?

Yes, obviously. I don't think anyone will debate this. The important part is noting where we are NOT superior to baselines.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Not unless you believe in slavery.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

? I don't understand the question.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

No. From a completely objective perspective, as well as a totally moral standpoint, both are equal in value. Subjectively, though, that may change, which is why the subject is still being debated.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenn 'Alchemist' Roberts:
Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

? I don't understand the question.

Clarification: Should novas and baselines remain separate? Is coexistance a bad idea and should be avoided?

Any answers from anyone else?


EDITED: Ok, more clarification then.

Question 1. Superiority as in "novas are better than humans."

Question 4. Is a nova's life worth more than a baseline's life?

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Here are some basic questions for everyone:

Oh why not? It is a long familiar road I don't mind treading again for a bit.


Are novas superior to baselines?

In what way? Specifically please.

If you mean in the manipulation of graviational forces, physical strenght, the ability to withstand diseases, or raw intellect? You'd be a fool to think otherwise.

If you mean in wealth of history, richness of culture, variety of language, art, and music or perhaps a dozen other possibilities, well, then you'd be a fool to think so.


Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Of course not.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Absolutely. We smother them, they restrict us.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

The use of 'lesser' and 'superior' need specific definition and context.

[Singularity]

I have edited my prior post to keep some sense of consistency. I will add more clarifications there if necessary. Obviously, my own contributions will be posted normally.

[Preston]

Are novas superior to baselines?

In someways, yes. In other ways, no. Certainly, we are, in some cases, stronger, faster, smarter, ect. Are we better people, I'm not so sure. Power seems to corrupt too many of us.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

No. Equality is the way.

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

Only if someone wants that. We should be free to lives our lives, as long as those freedoms do not oppress others.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

Exclusion sucks. Keep it up, and eventually you too will be excluded.

Ashnod, I am polite to the Police Commissioner because he is my boss. The vast majority of dealings humans find themselves in involve some sort of exchange. Be it praise for favor, or a prayer in appreciation for bounty, it is seen as an exchange.

Now, it is my belief that mankind is capable of dealing well with more powerful beings in their midst. Will their be extreme cases of both worhip and hate? Yes. Variety of expression is a human hallmark.

As for giving an example of humanity at large - how can I. We have barely been a united globe for a century. We are still boundless groupings of religions, cultures, and economic brackets. There is no humanity at large. Maybe seeing mankind in that manner is the problem.

As for co-existance ... I guess that's true. You just want it on your terms. I want one society.

As for the children of erupted novas ... no, I haven't had the pleasure. Thank you for denying the rest of the world the opportunity to try, though.

We are different, but more of a subspecies, than species. For starters, humans and novas can inter-breed.

If a war starts, it will most likely be the teragen's fault. I don't believe it will be you, but those who follow most of your beliefs and share your label as Terats.

I apologize if I upset you, but I do feel you are dealing with subterfuge and omissions. You state your assessments of our state as facts, and they are not. We are different, but are we so different that we can not live in the same society? You state it as if you could tell that we couldn't, but how do you know this? Have you tried? If so, why do you attribute your failures to the whole race?

Both you and Prodigy have said that by living in human society we are harming them and holding them back. It is a pity that is all you see yourselves capable of.

Eloquence is not a substitute for substance. If what I said did not have significant meaning, my words would have made no impact.

Actually, eloquance is appropriate. If we accepted your statement, then every cult leader deals in the same sort of substance.

Congratutlations. You could sell ice to eskimos.

So could I, but that wouldn't make me any more inherently right than you seem to think you are.

I don't doubt you believe what you are telling people. You strike me as a very philisophically adept individual. I believe you have thought long and hard about this. I still think you are wrong. I still think something in your background made you lose faith in humanity.

[Alex Craft]

"Are novas superior to baselines?"

Novas are capable of more than baselines. However, in individual cases, you could point out a baseline who was generally superior to a nova. Just because we have potential doesn't mean we fullfil it. However, in general, novas are superior to baselines.

"Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?"

If you mean to ask if one group should be of a higher caste than the other, no.

"Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?"

No, though that could be my sick love of take-out Chinese talking.

"Is a nova's life worth more than a baseline's life?"

If you mean something along the lines of "If you could save the life of either a nova or a human but not both?" I would not make the distinction based solely on whether or not they have a node.

However, a nova's life, while he/she's living it, is at least more significant than that of a baseline. For better or worse, it is easier for a nova to change the world than it is for a human. And I suppose that I do put value on that.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Are novas superior to baselines?

We have strengths they do not. We also have weaknesses they do not.

Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?

Does anyone honestly think that Totentanz would make a good President?

Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?

No.

Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

Very poorly phrased. How about these...

Do I, as Joe Nova, have the right to run around killing anyone I please? - No.

Am I, as Joe Nova, likely to have a impact on the world inside my field? - Yes.

The existence of novas does NOT diminish baselines, any more than the existence of the President, a race car driver, and the typical Doctor diminish each other.

[Ashnod]

Preston,

Apology accepted. Thank you.

Mr. Roberts,

I am familiar with the concept. We actually discussed it on these forums. Click here for Widget's thread on the matter. Unfortunately, she never finished her ideas before finding other ways to spend her time, but you might what was posted insightful.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

You know, I feel kinda pushed into the background with the Preston and Ashnod shooting tact nukes at each other, Baldy. We should rightly seize our thread back!

,,

Quote:

Actually, the most relevant from my point of view are 1,2 and 8.

So, in my repeated attempts to get an answer out of you as to how novas and spirits are different, the definition of spiritual that you find most relevant is the one thing that novas and spirits would have in common? Drive, nature, and soul? Okay, Baldy, I need you to explain that one to me, because I'm not capable of extrapolating what you're getting at here. How does something that both would have in common make the difference as to one not being the other?,,

Quote:

So you can perform feats like historical beings out of mythology. Fine. But you match the description of 'sorcerer' far better than 'salamander'. And I seem much closer to 'alchemist' than 'djinn'. There are humans in mythology who wield similar power to what we use today

Wrong again, dipshit. Most sorcerers had incantations, rites, and trappings upon which their magic was dependant. In most stories, they had to study under the elders as apprentices first, or had their power granted to them by some deity they gave worship too.

Me? I just got little ol'me. I AM. I DO. No spells or charms. I more closely fit the idea of a salamander than I do a witch.

Same with you, Mr. Turns-Lead-Into-Gold, except you gotta a better education than me, which probably gives you a better insight into how to do the things you do. But even if you didn't have that fancy learning, you'd still be able to do it.

,,

Quote:

Only by your definition. If, perchance, you mean those humans who do not have a node, certainly. My definition of human still includes novas.

Baseline and nova. We got different terms for them, after all. Anyway, we ain't going to be changing our minds on this point, so let's move on.,,

Quote:

It is something I believe. Simple as that.

Fine! I believe otherwise. Nyah!,,

Quote:

You grew up as a baseline (or 'enerupted nova'), spent your formative years around humans. No matter how hard you struggle, you will always remember being human.

Maybe, maybe not, Baldy. When I'm eighty, and have lived 3/4 of my live as a spirit of fire I don't know if that first 1/4 is gonna be that important. When it's 1/12 it'll be less so. And stuff. I mean, I remember being five years old. But that part of my life really doesn't seem to come up in most day to day living.

[Juri 'Salamander' McClendon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklin 'Singularity' Alden:
Here are some basic questions for everyone:

Are novas superior to baselines?
Should novas rule over baselines or vice versa?
Should there be separate lives from novas and baselines?
Are 'lesser' lifeforms less important than 'superior' lifeforms?

Superior? I dunno about that. Depends what you mean by superior.

Rule over? I can do without ruling. Too much responsibility.

Live seperately? Hell no! What would be the fun in that?

Lesser imporantance? Um, no way. What good is a spirit of fire if she doesn't have playmates?