Aberrant RPG - NOLK - Who dies?

[Wanderer]

(Wanderer) >>I don't think there is any realistic chance of the vast majority of NPC Children ever breaking ranks with the Teragen, even if individual exceptions may exist. Although they may easily prove as fractious as their elders. According to ABA, Terat 2nd Gen have been raised by Bounty and Scripture to be thoroughly indoctrinated in Teras. That's the whole reason of being for their clade, otherwise they would have been True 2nd Gen. Actually, it is more likely that in adulthood Terat 2nd Gen and the True 2nd Gen more alienated from baseline humanity (fairly easy, according to their description) may close ranks.<<

As the guy who wrote up the Terat 2ndGen clade, I'd like to point out that following Teras does not necessarily equate to having an unswerving loyalty to the Teragen. AFAICT, the surviving kids in question will either leave the Teragen to join with other nova groups - such as the Edenites - or become dominant forces w/in the Teragen themselves, second only to Mal & Scripture. If anything, they'll likely get along better w/ Mal than 95% of the current Pantheon, resulting in a Highfather/New Gods-style relationship.

This is in actual agreement with my own PoV. I suppose most Terat 2ndGen would grow to be loyal to Teras and the Teragen as a concept/organization (and likely to Mal, Scripture, and Bounty as parent figures). In no way I meant or expected that they would bring any special loyalty or awe to the rest of the current Pantheon (which they might likely deem pathetic). The others might indeed join sympathetic True 2ndGen to support other organizations with a transhumanist agenda, like Project Dedalus and its likely eventual development, the Edenites. It's just that I do not see many 2nd Gen of either clade being sympathetic to organizations with a baseline-priority agenda like PU, the Directive, or their future successors.

[metaphysician]

Me, I like to envision the odd 2nd Gen "Terat" ending up joining a theoretically baseline-oriented organization, because he chooses to follow a belief system with goals that organization supports. . . but from a beyond-human perspective. After all, the fact that you are no longer human, and do not consider yourself human, doesn't preclude beliefs like "humans are worthwhile, and could use a little hand."

The difference being, Utopia wants to recruit a celebrity and police officer, and they get a saint and crusader. . .

[Sprocket]

Me, I like to envision the odd 2nd Gen "Terat" ending up joining a theoretically baseline-oriented organization, because he chooses to follow a belief system with goals that organization supports. . . but from a beyond-human perspective. After all, the fact that you are no longer human, and do not consider yourself human, doesn't preclude beliefs like "humans are worthwhile, and could use a little hand."

The difference being, Utopia wants to recruit a celebrity and police officer, and they get a saint and crusader. . .

Of course, that's going to be difficult for all concerned given the Terat 2ndGen clade's difficulties on social interactions w/ baselines. Can working relationships of the type & quality that will be required (for what you're talking about) be established & function well with the distance that will prove necessary? Or is that hypothetical Terat 2ndGen just going to have to use the Soothe enhancement quite a bit?

[Wanderer]

Steering the topic in different direction, what do you think would be the survival/dead post-NOLK Pantheon list that would be "optimal" for the Teragen as a whole, in terms of achieving cohesiveness, steering as many novas as possible to their transhumanist perspective, and imposing their separatist/supremacist agenda on baseline humans ?

My suggestions:

Mathematician: dead. His demise would appease the radicals, and he's been largley paralyzed by indecision of late, talking doom and giving little useful advice.

Bounty & the Children: alive. They are the future.

Caroline Fong: dead. She was once a good inspiration, but in all evidence she's trapped in a never-ending Chrysalis.

Geryon, Shrapnel: alive. Every revolution needs fighters, and they have been playing the role effectively.

Confederate: dead. He means to exploit the Teragen to enforce a pointless and harmful personal agenda.

Epoch: dead. Too much nova blood on his hands.

Scripture: alive. He brings useful counsel and little division to the movement, has a positive influence on Mal, and is necessary in rising the Children.

Apostle: dead. The sooner the Teragen can free themselves of this sniveling Judas, the better.

Apothecary: alive. He's been pathetically ineffective at managing his freak show, but they need a leader, the likely alternatives are worse, and his powers may be useful.

Leviathan: dead. Just because you are a pathetic failure at controlling yout Taint with Teras doesn't mean you are free to force the other Teragen to join you down the tube.

Sloppy Joe: dead. Put him out of his misery, for Mal's sake.

Narcosis, Sin-Eater: alive. They offer useful services.

Orzaiz: alive. Even Mal admits that he gets Teras better than most, and he been all but useful.

Tarik: dunno.

[metaphysician]

Thing is, if both Leviathan and the Apothecary are dead, who ends up leading the Harvesters? Not that I can't see such a scenario happening, I just don't see it leading to anyplace good.

[Wanderer]

Thing is, if both Leviathan and the Apothecary are dead, who ends up leading the Harvesters? Not that I can't see such a scenario happening, I just don't see it leading to anyplace good.

Good point. In such a case, better to let the Apothecary live. Poor as a leader he has been, his powers may be useful (e.g. to work on the sterility prblem) and we need someone to lead the Harvesters. Leviathan is more harmful with his hate for "beautiful" Terats and there is nothing he can do that Geyron and Shrapnel can't do better. I reverse my judgement on Zia.

[Alex Green]

IMHO the "optimal" group coming out of the blood bath would be... Mathematician, Bounty & the Children, Geryon, Shrapnel, Epoch, Scripture, Narcosis, Sin-Eater, Orzaiz

This leaves you with people actively trying to avoid the war & some soldiers.

Kill off: Caroline Fong, Confederate, Apostle. Apothecary, Leviathan, Sloppy Joe, Tarik.

Apothecary & Leviathan I'd kill off with the entire harvester movement because "transhumanism" needs to be dominated by the visionaries, not the monsters.

The problem is I don't expect it to work out this nicely. This stage of revolution is going to favor the ruthless bastards and powerful monsters. Or put a different way, without a specific direction and leadership (which Mal is unlikely to give, perhaps because of taint/Chrysalis issues) the monsters and violence will win out. As a default, Sharpnal in the future of the movement.

I think that means Bounty is going to die. Not because anyone will be happy with that outcome, but because teras is what is is, and with the various characters and personalities, she's too big a target. Her existence is like this massive golden apple saying "for the most ruthless". As long as she exists everyone who doesn't control her and the children is basically screwed. Like you said, she is the future.

The essence of teras is "no rules". No rule of law, no rule of humanity... you *ACT*. It's acceptable and even expected that the strong will dominate and oppress the weak. In theory Bounty could join one of the factions but that's against her character, and for that matter the entire movement is going to head in a direction which is against her character.

If Bounty is going to survive and we assume an "unsettled" environment... first thing someone needs to kill Tarik, Apostle, Confederate (all of them are gunning for the children), and probably Sin Eater (who is thinking about it), and the Harvesters (who are massively screwed if the children survive). After that you'd need the direct word of Mal for everyone to stay away.

That's a pretty tall order but it might be possible.

[Wanderer]

If Bounty is going to survive and we assume an "unsettled" environment... first thing someone needs to kill Tarik, Apostle, Confederate (all of them are gunning for the children), and probably Sin Eater (who is thinking about it), and the Harvesters (who are massively screwed if the children survive). After that you'd need the direct word of Mal for everyone to stay away.

I get and more or less agree with the rest of your argument, but I don't understand your point about Sin-Eater. Please explain. In my impression she's no threat for Bounty and the Children.

[Sprocket]

Re: Tarik in the post-NOLK scenario-

This guy absolutely deserves to wind up being killed in the NOLK. Not only has he attempted to turn the Companions ("his" Teragen faction) into his own little isolated fiefdom, but he's been infecting other Pantheon members with his diseases (a variant form of the Poison quantum power) for political advantage. And to top things off, he's just a power-hungry opportunist who sees the Teragen as a stepping stone towards establishing his own empire in the Middle East.

Re: Sin-Eater & the Children-

Sin-Eater is stated as wanting to use her powers to taint all the Children so they wind up becoming future Harvester recruits. The fact that some of them won't survive being tainted isn't considered important in Sin-Eater's POV. She's a deadly threat & needs to be ganked ASAP.

[Alex Green]

RE: Sin-Eater

What Sprocket said except I think it's more like "most of them won't survive".

RE: Seeing it coming.

I think you'd really need the Mathematician to pull off Bounty surviving. Without him it's very hard to see how the kids' threats are identified. The Confederate, Tarik, and Sin-eater are all hidden threats.

In order of most dangerous to least...

1) The Teragen in general. I.e. everyone has been trained to ACT. If anyone does act, even to protect the kids, we could easily see matters degenerate into a quantum riot.

2) The Apostle. He wants the kids to join his cult, he's got his cult backing him up. He *will* act and he can act openly.

3) The Confederate. He actively wants Bounty and most of the kids dead because they're black. He's willing to drag T2M into the situation.

4) Tarik. We need to assume Tarik has poisoned ALL of the children. He's had access, he's trusted, and it's what he does. The only thing which prevents him from being a higher threat is he doesn't actively want them dead. The problem is at some point he's going to be forced into the open, and then it will get messy.

5) Sin-eater. No active plans to do anything, and she's never told anyone about her desires. The problem comes from her joining the Harvesters. If she does, she can make the children join too and they're major league screwed if she doesn't. She's the only one of the four that could survive and not be a threat to the children, but that's basically possible only if the harvesters are destroyed.

[Sprocket]

Re: Tarik-

IIRC, Tarik planned to infect the kids when they were living in the Badaneh Enclave (w/ Terat foster parents). Are we assuming that the NOLK takes place after the kids have been moved there?

[Alex Green]

It probably doesn't matter. Page 114 of AB:Teragen suggests strongly it's already too late. At the time of the conference he'd been with the movement for 2 years. He walked into the conference already Bounty's friend and "ally".

We should assume he's met the children, and that's enough.

[Wanderer]

So it seems to be general consensus that for the greater good of the Teragen movement in general, and for the safety of Bounty and the Children whose future they embody, the Apostle, the Confederate, Tarik, Leviathan and the Harvesters need to die in the NOLK, while the rest of the Pantheon ought to live. The Apothecary and Sin-Eater may or may not need to die as well, depending on how much they can restrain themselves as well when the Harversters buy the farm.

Regarding Tarik, I would point out that once Tarik is dead, the diseases would stay dormant indefinitely, and anyways, they are nothing special, they can be healed by any nova with healing powers. Conveniently enough, this includes Bounty's Bio-Manip. I agree that the Mathematician may prove useful to identify the threat, and hence he ought to survive.

Regarding Sin-Eater, I notice that his entry tells that her "Taint Control" powers (a sadly yet unwritten suite version of Aberration Transfer) can remove Aberrations and increase Taint level in other novas but only temporarily. Taint-related bodywarping could theoretically be done to deadly levels (although novas are in all likelihood going to be less vulernable to this than baselines), but otherwise she could never raise Taint permanently and hence screw-up the Children for good.

[Alex Green]

Agreed with the rest. But...

Taint-related bodywarping could theoretically be done to deadly levels (although novas are in all likelihood going to be less vulernable to this than baselines), but otherwise she could never raise Taint permanently and hence screw-up the Children for good.

Taint manip is presumably her theme (not her power), so I wouldn't be shocked if Taint-related bodywarping is "Q-Vampire(Health)+Agg" or something similar. But you're probably right that novas are a lot more resistant than baselines just because novas have much higher stats (and a Q-sig).

However the real threat posed by her is eruption. It's implied the children, regardless of their current powers and/or potential, haven't truly "erupted" yet. Nothing mechanically *makes* a pre-nova who erupts because of taint injection purchase a lot of perm taint, but if I were ST I might insist on it for a NPC. Or alternatively the ST might insist on the NPC purchasing a lot of powers tainted right now.

[metaphysician]

Its also within the realm of possibility that, if there's a Level 4 power that lets you inflict actual real taint on somebody else ( as in, one person at a time ), that she might have a greatly restricted version reduced to level 3. So, maybe she can't inflict real taint on you in combat, but if she gets the chance to focus her power on you for ten minutes straight, and is willing to dump half her quantum pool into one action. . .

[Wanderer]

Its also within the realm of possibility that, if there's a Level 4 power that lets you inflict actual real taint on somebody else ( as in, one person at a time ), that she might have a greatly restricted version reduced to level 3. So, maybe she can't inflict real taint on you in combat, but if she gets the chance to focus her power on you for ten minutes straight, and is willing to dump half her quantum pool into one action. . .

As Sprocket said in the other thread, ability to inflict or remove actual Taint seems to be grossly unbalanced for an L3/L4 power.

Agreed with the rest. But...

Taint manip is presumably her theme (not her power), so I wouldn't be shocked if Taint-related bodywarping is "Q-Vampire(Health)+Agg" or something similar. But you're probably right that novas are a lot more resistant than baselines just because novas have much higher stats (and a Q-sig).

Agreed. And as an aside, her aberration-removal is in all likelihood Aberration Transfer with an Extra that allows to use it on other novas (this means she needs a "stable" of baselines to victimize as recipients of the aberrations, but that's nothing that a nova with her resources can't easily set up). Which does open up interesting scenarioes once she achieves Q6 and can also add Permanency to the power. ::devil

[Wanderer]

However the real threat posed by her is eruption. It's implied the children, regardless of their current powers and/or potential, haven't truly "erupted" yet. Nothing mechanically *makes* a pre-nova who erupts because of taint injection purchase a lot of perm taint, but if I were ST I might insist on it for a NPC. Or alternatively the ST might insist on the NPC purchasing a lot of powers tainted right now.

Erm, no. The Children are Terat 2nd Gens, and they are born novas. They also cannot buy Tainted traits, or acquire Taint from too Much Quantum or Node. Even before ABA, there was strong canon indication that 2nd Gen are born with their powers.

[Alex Green]

Erm, no. The Children are Terat 2nd Gens, and they are born novas. They also cannot buy Tainted traits, or acquire Taint from too Much Quantum or Node. Even before ABA, there was strong canon indication that 2nd Gen are born with their powers.

Some of this (I think) is non-cannon fan assumptions (what did the ABA say specifically?). Adam should be viewed as an anomaly.

It seems unlikely that the children are full 30 point novas (or 100 points or whatever) at birth. Assume that they're 10-15 and will develop into 100 points... another way of phrasing that is they've got 90 nova points that haven't been spent yet. The situation is unusual enough the ST might handwave the "can't get stuff tainted" rule.

Or, assume that my entire line of logic and Sin Eater are *wrong*, and you're 100% correct. This means Sin Eater will *fail* to taint any of the children, and most or all of them will simply die from her attempt. ::devil

I guess that's an improvement but it's not much of one.

[Wanderer]

Some of this (I think) is non-cannon fan assumptions (what did the ABA say specifically?). Adam should be viewed as an anomaly.

ABA is very clear on the subject (I feel weird reminding one of the authors about the content of that book ::blink but then again, memory may lapse, while I made a thorough study of ABA, since 2nd Gens fascinate me a lot). 2nd Gen do not erupt, but are born with their quantum powers and will grow into them naturally. They cannot have Dormancy, since they have no baseline selves. They get a Q5 power cap during childhood, which may be extended to limit the levels of Physical Attributes, Intelligence-related Abilities, Mega-Attributes, and quantum powers in varying ways according to the clade, and is lifted when they experience Apotheosis, the quasi-eruption substantial power boost during adolescence.

It seems unlikely that the children are full 30 point novas (or 100 points or whatever) at birth. Assume that they're 10-15 and will develop into 100 points... another way of phrasing that is they've got 90 nova points that haven't been spent yet. The situation is unusual enough the ST might handwave the "can't get stuff tainted" rule.

ABA is very clear on the subject as well. 2nd Gens are are born with a minimum of 30-40 nova points(according to APG, novas never have less than 10-20 np, and 2nd Gen get a +20 np bonus to the amount 1st gen ones get), typically they get much more. They do have a lot of extra np (50-100, possibly with a rather more favorable xp cost chart) that don't get expended till Apotheosis, more or less. But ABA is equally very clear that 2nd Gens cannot ever have Tainted traits, nor develop Taint from high Node or Quantum (the latter with the exception of the Trog clade).

Or, assume that my entire line of logic and Sin Eater are *wrong*, and you're 100% correct. This means Sin Eater will *fail* to taint any of the children, and most or all of them will simply die from her attempt. ::devil

That seems to be the picture. Of course, novas are much sturdier than baselines, 2nd Gen even more so than 1st Gen, so it is quite possible that Sin-Eater taint-related bodywarping attack is nowhere so lethal on novas as it was on baselines. ::cool

[Alex Green]

...ABA is very clear on the subject (I feel weird reminding one of the authors about the content of that book...

OK, now I see where you're coming from. SinEater's plan is black letter cannon. While some STs might call the ABA cannon others would call it fan work and want to house rule what the 2nd gen is like.

Agreed, if we take the ABA as cannon then Sin Eater is in for a serious surprise if/when she tries this. (On the other hand if she really is the Colony then maybe not.)

[Wanderer]

OK, now I see where you're coming from. SinEater's plan is black letter cannon. While some STs might call the ABA cannon others would call it fan work and want to house rule what the 2nd gen is like.

Agreed, if we take the ABA as cannon then Sin Eater is in for a serious surprise if/when she tries this. (On the other hand if she really is the Colony then maybe not.)

Well, I'm definitely adamant on deeming BW, FP, ABA, and NF canon which trumps the actual feasibility of S-E's plan for various reasons. Those books cover areas of the setting and rulesystem that the death of the line left woefully uncovered, their quality is very high and at the very least of the same level with published material, they integrate very well with the published rulesystem and setting.

Moreover, and even more importantly, the Teragen book gives us S-E's plan, but there is no indication whatsoever that she is right and the plan is factually feasible. It would be far from the first documented occurence of a Pantheon member being in the dead wrong. I again call your attention to the case of Sloppy Joe and Leviathan wallowing in hateful self-pity, and SJ betraying his companions out of Sophie Rosseau making some cheap fast-talk about a cure, when the "cure" for destructive aberrations is just a Chrysalis away for Teragen novas, even according to strict published canon. Or need I point out how the Apostle's plans and viewpoint are ample proof that he got pretty much everything about Teras wrong ?

As it concerns the Colony, I think there is ample proof even in published canon that Trinity monstrous sub-aberrants are not true novas, but "cannon fodder" baselines rewarped into pseudo-novas with physical enhancements and quasi-powers. Only the direct offspring of the Colony are real 2nd Gen novas. But I feel insecure speculating on Trinity material too much, I never liked that part of the setting (and I find the canon outcome of the Aberrant War lacking any plausibility), so I largely left it alone and I lack any indepth familiarity. I tend to treat the Aberrant setting as a standalone if I can afford it although I recognize that some bits of the Adventure and Trinity setting may be necessary to make Aberrant complete (at least, the Time Travel power shows that the future of the Aberrant setting may be malleable).

[Alex Green]

Well, I'm definitely adamant on deeming BW, FP, ABA, and NF canon which trumps the actual feasibility of S-E's plan for various reasons.

Well thank you kindly.

there is no indication whatsoever that she is right and the plan is factually feasible. It would be far from the first documented occurence of a Pantheon member being in the dead wrong.

Yeah, it's a high risk move. The only thing in it's favor is all the other moves are probably worse. The Harvesters are on a path that will lead them into direct conflict with the humanoid non-monsters, and that includes Divis.

need I point out how the Apostle's plans and viewpoint are ample proof that he got pretty much everything about Teras wrong ?

The Apostle went through the big C twice, he must have gotten a few things right. Of course that one thing might have been "suck up to Scripture".

As it concerns the Colony, I think there is ample proof even in published canon that Trinity monstrous sub-aberrants are not true novas, but "cannon fodder" baselines rewarped into pseudo-novas with physical enhancements and quasi-powers.

Injecting baselines with taint to give them 3rd rate powers/aberrations? His/her/its theme overlaps a lot with Sineater's. She's the only cannon nova who fits that bill (although I'd still rank her well down the list and part of the problem is this is a high Q power).

Personally if I'm playing a Terat I like to name him "The Colony" just because it puts Q8+ in his destiny...

[metaphysician]

Eh, I like Trinity, as a setting. Its connections with the earlier time periods are just unrefined. The Aeonverse could have used a 2e, with a better idea of how to connect stuff from the getgo.

( what can I say, if nothing else, Trinity got the best set of adventures, by far. . . )