An Uncertain Universe: Discussion Thread

[Vixen]

(spoilers ahoy)

All I really ask to take out of this story and put on the OpNet boards is the fact that Mitch proposed and Roxanne accepted. That was the major life change I promised at the start and I'd hate to have to rewrite it or throw it out, because those last few pages are probably the proudest I've ever been of anything I wrote.

Everything else is more or less designed to be ignored on a player-by-player basis. As an example, if Samhra wants to get a funny little feeling in the back of her head when she sees the phrase [font:courier new]last word she can - or if she doesn't, she doesn't have to. I should note that OpNet Vixen hasn't got the foggiest idea of what happened other than an anxiety dream, and will not really get the foggiest idea for the forseeable future. (I'd say that she'd never figure any of it out, but I also said that I had nothing left to say about Magnum Opus after There's Always Tomorrow and we see how that turned out...) As far as OpNet Vixen is concerned, a nova with no name happened along just in time, and the shock of it spurred Mitch to pop the big question. OpNet Vixen doesn't know fact one about Magnum Opus, Infinite Omega, Douglas Dale, Mainline, or anything along those lines.

All the OpNet will see out of me regarding this story is Roxanne and Mitch taking the big step. Whatever else various players want to 'see' is up to their own gifts IC and their inclinations OOC.

[Hugin]

I think it's great that you have that sense of easy going about it Micheal, but the problem is with the new rules something is either canon or not as far as the OpNet is concerned. We don't really have an option of "accept the stuff you want and ignore the rest" option. Now, you still control your OpNet character so of course you simply say that Mitch popped the question and we can all start asking when you'll be expecting your first litter. But as for stuff like the 'last word' aspect, unless a majority say yay to the story being canon then no, Samahra shouldn't have any sort of reaction to that phrase.

[Sakurako Hino]

I'm Voting FOR getting this accepted into OpNet Canon. The work done in the story, and the sheer backdrop of it not only defines Vixen, but Defines a rich background that could be explored later on.

That is exactly why I gave Vixen permission to use Endeavor the way she did. So that the OpNet Canon can be enriched.

[kestrel404]

I think the canon/non-canon argument is a little besides the point. Perhaps it's being drawn out because this is the longest and probably the most powerful story on the fiction boards. Perhaps it's because you (Michael, Vixen, the author) poked at the underpinnings of the universe. But in reality, all that happened is:

Mitch proposed and Roxanne accepted

A mysterious being (who was apparently a nova) prevented a car crash

Beyond that, there have been no changes to the universe that couldn't be ignored (since they occurred on an alternate timeline, and don't necessarily have to apply to our universe at all).

I'm not going to vote either way, because I don't feel we have a right to make that kind of decision. Yes, it's in the rules that fiction is non-canon until proven canon, but the two items listed above are entirely within the realm of another rule, that a player has dominion over the life of their character.

Everything else is just artistic license.

Oh, and Prodigy/Hugin: I disagree.

[Sakurako Hino]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
...But in reality, all that happened is:

Mitch proposed and Roxanne accepted
A mysterious being (who was apparently a nova) prevented a car crash

Beyond that, there have been no changes to the universe that couldn't be ignored (since they occurred on an alternate timeline, and don't necessarily have to apply to our universe at all).

...Yes, it's in the rules that fiction is non-canon until proven canon, but the two items listed above are entirely within the realm of another rule, that a player has dominion over the life of their character.

Everything else is just artistic license...

Very astute point. Quite frankly those are (Referring to things mentioned that I bolded and italicized) the only things that truely effect the OpNet.

That's why I voted yes, you see, since Vix DOES have character control, and I am standing up for Vix's right to have so. So what if there is a grandiose story? All it leads to is the two things above.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Warning: Spoilers

There is more to it than just a grandiose story of a marriage proposal, if for no other reason than Max made an appearence.

Things that were introduced (albeit on an alternative timeline(s)):

1) Other, parallel realities exist (which is cannon).

2) Some of them have their own super types which are not novas (considering these other realities can have different natural laws, this would be cannon except that other realities is by definition non-cannon).

3) Time travel is possible (also cannon).

4) The Count was presented as…

4a) Being able to manipulate the Mega-Manipulative Vixen into doing shocking things.

4b) Knowing the Night of Long Knives is coming (probably cannon considering Mathematician).

4c) Being willing to set up rivals and potential rivals.

Moving back to our own timeline:

1) Mercer is around and has time manipulation abilities (both are heavily implied in cannon, and the displayed power could easily be a special effect on Precognition or similar power so he doesn’t even need Q6+).

2) Vixen has (mostly emotional) problems earning money as a nova, to the point where she finds it easier and more satisfying to take “mundane” jobs while dormed. She blames the economy. We talked about this earlier; I’ll just say I think it speaks more about the character than the economy.

3) And then we have the unknown nova saving a car and Mitch’s marriage proposal (both character license).

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:


Oh, and Prodigy/Hugin: I disagree.

Tough. Vote is currently 3-2 against. Why not vote for it to be canon if it doesn't make any difference to you? I know I won't give a thumbs down to a story unless I have a reason to.

Fact is fiction is in our hands now people and stuff isn't canon unless it is embraced as being so. Not a big deal with most stories so far because their focus has been so narrow. Micheal's story is far more epic and touches on a number of areas that might mean something to one or more of us. Hence I brought it up.

But as I said to Thomas last night, if you just sit back and don't put up a vote your opinion means nothing. If the vote goes non-canon and you don't think it should've been then vote, don't sit on your butt. Stand up for what you think, believe, want. People kvetch about there being mods enough that I'd think they'd enjoy having a little chance to define things themselves.

[kestrel404]

Fine. I vote canon. That makes it 3-3. What happens in the case of a tie, anyway?

[Wakinyan]

Canon.

Alternate dimension and timetravel are an accepted part of the Trinity universe so this story does not violate that. And every person calls their native dimention a 'Mainline' so it isn't something that I think is shooting down the validity of the Canon timeline.

[Sam Grey]

I haven't voted because I can't give a generalized "yes" or "no" to the story. I think certain elements work fine as canon. Others do not. And I think it's wasteful to just throw out good material because I don't like parts of it. And it's just as bad to retain elements I don't like because I want the other stuff in.

[Sakurako Hino]

Looks we swung it to 4-3 in favor.

Come on, people. This is OUR playground. Speak up!

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sam Grey:
I haven't voted because I can't give a generalized "yes" or "no" to the story. I think certain elements work fine as canon. Others do not. And I think it's wasteful to just throw out good material because I don't like parts of it. And it's just as bad to retain elements I don't like because I want the other stuff in.

Non-canon is not throwing something away. It's not evening a thumbs-down on quality. What it is, is us getting together as a group and saying "Does this hold sway in the OpNet? Do the NPCs act this way, did these events happen?"

Writing something that isn't canon isn't a waste of time. It's still a good story and people can still appreciate it. A number of the contest stories have been non-canon and that doesn't lessen them in any degree.

[Sandcaster]

I cannot vote, as I simply have not had the time to read the fiction in question. That said, I would make a recommendation.

I work for an academic journal. Whilst that is a good deal different than what we have here, some of the particulars are the same, the key part of which being a peer-review system. Mind you, the number of reviewers here on N!Prime is somewhat large, but the principle is the same.

What I would recommend is that, should a majority of the reviewers find that, for whatever reason, the fiction cannot be considered canon as it currently stands, that they point out the "problem points" to the author.

The author could then, at his or her option, either let the fiction stand as non-canon (which is not in any way a critique of the quality of the fiction), or make revisions to the fiction in order to be reconsidered for canon status.

I would like to emphasize that I do not in any way mean this to be a critique of the fiction or the author. I have not read the piece; for all I know, it could be the next Gone With the Wind or the next Howard the Duck. I simply feel that, if the piece is not currently acceptable as canon, the opportunity should be presented to the author to try to make it such if they so desire.

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugin:
Non-canon is not throwing something away. It's not evening a thumbs-down on quality.

That can be said but really it invalidates hard work that someone brought forth for 'their' character. It changes them, evolves them, gives the character more worth in their mind. A no vote basicaly takes all of that worth away. Sure it might still be a good story but it is like saying. "You just hit a grandslam home run but the fans didn't really like that it went into the left field stands so it just doesn't count, sorry."

When a person clearly tries to write within the Canon and fails to meet the 'community' standard for better or worse it is a slap in the face.

[Ashnod]

So basically, if it's not "canon" there's no point in writing it?

[Wakinyan]

Given the amount of canon versus noncanon written here that is a good assumption I would guess.

People write NC stuff but the fact that it is a very very small minority of the amount of work done in the fictions that obviously shows that most people do not 'want' to do fiction that doesn't mean anything to the site as a whole.

Just my observation of course but I think a review of the fiction section will back me up very easily.

[Vixen]

If people want the story considered non-canon for minor issues then I agree with Sandcaster's idea of having offending details changed. It's no trouble at all to add "Of course, that's just my opinion" to the end of Roxanne's office cooler chat with the superfluous Mitch. Major details will be less easily accomodated, of course, but that's life. I could sub in another Teras-inspired, baseline-friendly, controversial mover-and-shaker if I wanted, but it'd require some extra effort and a degree of exposition within the story that could throw off the flow.

That said - don't vote canon or non-canon on my account. Canon or no I'm immensely proud of An Uncertain Universe, and I'm pleased as punch that minor qualms aside everyone else seems to like it. Don't vote canon 'cause of me or 'cause I have plans for where to go from here - vote for it based on its own merits. I posted it knowing it'd cause a lot of controversy. If it gets shot down I'll post a more OpNet friendly (and shorter) edition, or maybe just be vague about how the two of them wound up engaged.

I do have to ask that if this story is accepted as canon, that people not go utterly overboard with it - posting on the OpNet about how they teamed up with their counterparts on Wonderworld (my offhand nickname for Mainline) and so forth. Alternate universes and time travel are a big deal. A world-changing deal. It'd be like first contact with an alien civilization. Just visiting Wonderworld and reading a history book could unravel the entire secret history of Æon just by noticing what was recorded in that world but not in this one. I had it play out the way it did to minimize the impact it would have on OpNet because I don't want to make the story impossible to ignore for people who don't want to deal with the potential headaches involved.

This doesn't mean that no one can write stories involving Wonderworld in some fashion - just that since 'core' Aberrant's relationship with alternate dimensions and how that affects society is a grey area, that we should keep it as such and make contact a nebulous, secretive thing, that at the end of the day leaves this world more or less alone. Essentially, you can take the toys out of the box and do whatever you want with them, as long as you put them back roughly where you found them. The fact that this story is a contested issue clearly indicates that it'd be a problem for some, and I just think we should be courteous about that even if it's accepted as canon.

Now, to the posts made since my last:

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugin:

I think it's great that you have that sense of easy going about it Michael, but the problem is with the new rules something is either canon or not as far as the OpNet is concerned.

Yeah, that I figured would be tricky. If someone wants to accept part of it but not all of it, I personally don't have an issue with it - like Vixen, I also think this community is strong enough to weather the occasional contradiction.

Like I said, if it's required, I'll do a condensed version that'll basically be Part One, the revised Part Two, and the Epilogue - with overt references to five-dimensional tomfoolery excised. We can call that the OpNet edition.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:

Perhaps it's being drawn out because this is the longest and probably the most powerful story on the fiction boards.

You're too kind, sir.

Quote:

Perhaps it's because you (Michael, Vixen, the author) poked at the underpinnings of the universe.

Yeah, that I figured was gonna be a problem. It's all right to have my own sandbox, but what happened here affected everyone's sandbox. And while technically speaking, everything I do affects others thanks to the Butterfly Effect, there are some things that are easy to ignore and other things that are less so. Again, that's partly why it's in the shape it's in - I wanted to put the toys more or less back where they were, while at the same time telling a story about how the avatar of a nihilistic universe got punched in the face while a killer meme was cut out of the collective unconscious with samurai swords.

Quote:

But in reality, all that happened is:

Mitch proposed and Roxanne accepted

A mysterious being (who was apparently a nova) prevented a car crash

All that happened that's easily recognized, technically speaking, but yes. That's all the average person on the OpNet would know about the events of An Uncertain Universe, assuming Roxanne told them or they found out on their own. Those would be the events of any theoretical 'special OpNet edition.'

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

1) Other, parallel realities exist (which is cannon).

2) Some of them have their own super types which are not novas (considering these other realities can have different natural laws, this would be cannon except that other realities is by definition non-cannon).

3) Time travel is possible (also cannon).

4) The Count was presented as…

4a) Being able to manipulate the Mega-Manipulative Vixen into doing shocking things.

4b) Knowing the Night of Long Knives is coming (probably cannon considering Mathematician).

4c) Being willing to set up rivals and potential rivals.

Number 2 is based in part in the same setup of the Age of Adventure, but taken down a different track. What happened is that Divis Mal caused the superhuman boom via noetics/telluric energy/z-rays. The APG defines noetics as controlling the information content of the unvierse - Divis just rewrote the 'rules,' allowing the paranormal and superhuman to emerge on its own, spiralling backwards and forwards in time. If you wanted to get cheeky you could say he switched the game system over from Aberrant to, say, Mutants & Masterminds.

The Count, I admit, will be a contentious issue. 4a is attributed, though, to Vixen being dormed down and traumatized, and earlier she fantasizes about having something she can hit to work out her grief. 4b is stickier, but I think the Count's a sharp guy and can see problems coming within the movement he co-founded. 4c I admit is an interpretation that's not really supported by the books, but I think what the Count has in front of him is the Prisoner's Dilemma, again - and one of the effective strategies for said dilemma is 'tit-for-tat,' where you repay trust with trust and betrayal with betrayal.

Quote:

Moving back to our own timeline:

1) Mercer is around and has time manipulation abilities (both are heavily implied in cannon, and the displayed power could easily be a special effect on Precognition or similar power so he doesn’t even need Q6+).

2) Vixen has (mostly emotional) problems earning money as a nova, to the point where she finds it easier and more satisfying to take “mundane” jobs while dormed. She blames the economy. We talked about this earlier; I’ll just say I think it speaks more about the character than the economy.

3) And then we have the unknown nova saving a car and Mitch’s marriage proposal (both character license).

1 is attributable to Max being an unknown type of superhuman - he doesn't have a quantum score and his abilities are nebulous on purpose. I figure if there's any kind of major disruption in time he's going to be checking into things. And if there wasn't any kind of disruption in time... the backwards-talk is easy to clip out, and it's not like 'Max Mercer' is the least common name in the world.

[April Rice]

"It is only after decades of practice that he acquires the full potential of his power - eventually, almost any conceivable manipulation of time is his to command!"

That's from the description of Mercer's Chronal Awareness power as of the mid-Twenties. Is rewinding time a few seconds a 'conceivable manipulation of time?' Why yes, I think it is. (c:

I have to vote non-cannon, though - mostly because you've been dickering around with the Way the Universe Works. It's possible that the whole 'game of go' business only applies to Wonderworld, but if so, that wasn't sufficiently clear to for me to call it cannon.

Not that it's bad (rather cool, actually). It just sets a certain way of doing things in place - if this becomes cannon and someone wants to write a story of the same 'cosmic' scale, they must either be non-cannon or conform to your vision.

Of course, these hypothetical people would be non-cannon for the same reasons that I think this should be non-cannon, anyway ... I love my logic.

[April Rice]

But, personally, I'd consider Vixen engaged regardless of whether you threw up an 'N!Prime safe' version or not - if nothing else, it is so the moment you post, PM, or otherwise make a reference about it.

[Hugin]

A few notes:

1. Vixen, thank you for writing this story not just for its entertainment value but to have given us an opportunity to try out the workings of the new rules.

2. Vixen, again, thank you. This time for being exceptionally mature and adult about handling this entire broughhaha. I'm impressed.

3. Sandcaster, intersting concept and potentially an answer for us all.

[Hugin]

As to Ashnod and Wakinyan's little portion:

If people think that there is no need to post anything unless they are going to get a 'canon' flag from everyone then it is up to the authors involved to be as careful as possible. It is up to the author to write something the reader considers canon if desire for the canon descriptor is the driving force behind writing.

I always thought the reason for writing a story was to have fun, entertain folks and make something new. If canon is the only goal then be very very careful so that all this effort you're putting into impressing us with your character isn't all for naught.

[Ghostwriter]

Hmm, I rather liked the portrayal of Raoul Orzaiz, actually.

The guy has Mega-Manipulation 4 with Trickster (3 automatic successes) and Persuader (3 automatic successes). Vixen is grief-stricken, dormed and fantasising about revenge.

No surprise to me what happened.

[Xeno]

I have read, and I am pleased. Well pleased. Cosmic level stories revolving around the obliteration of timelines and whatnot often scare me away a bit by becoming (nigh) mindless power-fests. This stayed personal. I have a special appreciation of and interest in people breaking. There were some very nice looks at that in this tale. Characters are supposed to be taken apart so we can see what makes them tick. Unflappable perfection might have its place in literature, but I'm not sure where off the top of my head. Even the archetypical superhero character showed her chinks well. The villains were pleasantly despicable and (with the obvious, justified exception of Omega) well rounded.

There was good use of repetition and structure. Some of the metaphors seemed a bit over the top for me, in nature and in volume, but once I realized that was intentional it became more palatable. I would certainly be interested to see more done with the concepts used here but, as mentioned above, carefully.

The greatest concern to me, canon-wise is the 'Cosmic Architecture' matter mentioned by April. To my eye nothing has been set in stone. We have merely been shown how the denizens of one alternate reality see things. Weather they are correct or not, the multiverse is likely big enough for their viewpoint to be an isolated condition. Or they might just be nuts.

If (when?!) I wrote a crosstime story, my take on the matter would prove somewhat divergent from the 'Go' system. Insofar as I can still carve out my own little chunk of hypertime philosophy later on without stepping on anyone's toes or cheapening what has gone before, I'm happy. If we must accept some flavor of a black and white struggle for ultimate supremacy in every reality from here on out (I don't think we do) I would have to vote for non-canon.

If the forums find the concept of having a highly diverse version of hypertime (where one canon story can talk of tangible black and white moral conflict with a clear ultimate victor and another can depict a cold, uncaring segment of the multiverse where sentients can survive and thrive only through their own cunning) unpalatable I would heartily endorse setting a standard for the 'cosmic cosmology' now. At least that way if someone wants to write a 'big' reality-spanning canon tale again they won't have to worry so much about making up something that doesn't jive with other people's ideas.

[Vixen]

The cosmic architecture with the notions of good, evil, hope and fear jousting with each other throughout the substructure of the universe is most probably, only applicable to Wonderworld itself. WW8500 doesn't have a Magnum Opus or an Infinite Omega, so without the avatars, the hypothetical endpoints they personify probably don't exist here either.

As Mags comments, WW8500 doesn't seem to like folks like her. My implication is that on a metafictional level, Aberrant doesn't permit iconic heroes and villains to exist without some major stresses on their part and on the universe's. WW8500 drove Nathan Dayes - or, as he was known in There's Always Tomorrow, Nathan Knight - nearly to suicide, and the same with Wonderworld's own Vixen. The timeline literally shuddered when the throwdown between the future's avatars came to pass.

Magnum Opus does tell Roxanne that there is a point to it all, and that does seem to imply that WW8500 could get roped into this struggle. But then again, she is coming at it from a perspective that accomodates all n-dimensions of spacetime. To such a perspective, there might not even be a contradiction between two seemingly mutually exclusive 'ends.'

Or perhaps it's all a product of noetic flux rippling through time and tied to the two basic human reactions to uncertainty. Just like kitsunes, maybe it's all fake.

Or maybe it's not.

It is, after all - an uncertain universe.

If someone's got another idea for the cosmology and it's totally different, they can go right ahead - the thing about cosmic stuff is that it should be at the very limits of our imagination, and maybe we don't fully understand what we see. Even in Aberrant proper, people only have the tiniest idea of how noetics/telluric energy/z-rays really work. I think we should keep it that way.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
4) The Count was presented as…
4c) Being willing to set up rivals and potential rivals.

Quote:

Vixen:The Count, I admit, will be a contentious issue. ... 4c I admit is an interpretation that's not really supported by the books

Actually it is supported in AB:Teragen in some varients of the Night of Long Knives (NOLK).

If this were 2004 then it would be out of character. However, since this is 2015 and the NOLK is (I assume) right around the corner, this is very much in character.

And that's not even touching upon how over the line those guys were, I assume even by Teragen standards. There is a very high probability that some or all of their victims could have erupted.

[Vixen]

It just occured to me.

When will we have 'enough votes' one way or the other? I'm operating on the assumption that enough people have given me the okay to post about the engagement on the OpNet, but when will we know for sure that 'the majority of OpNet players' have spoken with regards to the rest of the story?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Post a poll & wait 10 days?

[Vixen]

Done!

Here it is. You have two weeks.