opnet [OpNet] Building of temples.

[Good Alice]

i have bought a large track of land in witch i plan on building temples to the gods. I welcome anyone to help, and I will let just about anyone build a temple to just about any god or goddess. I only ask if you come, or build here than you respect all the faiths of those who came before you and those who will come after you.

I plan on starting with a temple to Sol Invictus. I plan on building many more, the number of them is dependent on a few things some are more pragmatic than others.

[Regina Newcastle]

What a splendid idea. Perhaps after you've finished you can build an alchemical laboratory, a flat earth geophysical institute, a cryptozoology center, a holistic medical center, an orgone chamber, and put it all next to the Afrocentric history institute.

You are planning to build a shrine to the ignorance and fear of Bronze Age baseline myths. I hope you fail ignominiously.

[Good Alice]

Yes, because those who came before as worthless and know less than us. Those who have different idea of religion and faith must be wrong.

If you believe in a religion at all you could look a the world today and see proof. I see proof that the old religion had many things right. Yes it is silly to build as Alchemical Laboratory? or is it? We build them all the time, we just call them by different names. The flat earth idea was proven wrong. It was something you could prove right or wrong. If you feel strongly about my religion to act in such a manor I better hope you don't wear a cross. Cryptozoology has found things were thought were dead. Holistic medicine is often a better way to treat people than the drugs we make. Afrocentric history is no less wrong than Eurocentric history.

We as a people build temples to gods all the time. We do not bat an eye at such things. You on the other hand seem to think because it is old it must be wrong.

[Regina Newcastle]

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Yes, because those who came before as worthless and know less than us.

No more worthless than the first, second, third, or fourth stairs of a staircase or the first several rungs of a ladder. But know less than us? You bet your arse.

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If you believe in a religion at all you could look a the world today and see proof. I see proof that the old religion had many things right.

I don't, and you also don't know what the word "proof" means, apparently.

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Yes it is silly to build as Alchemical Laboratory? or is it?

No, it is.

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We build them all the time, we just call them by different names. The flat earth idea was proven wrong. It was something you could prove right or wrong. If you feel strongly about my religion to act in such a manor I better hope you don't wear a cross. Cryptozoology has found things were thought were dead. Holistic medicine is often a better way to treat people than the drugs we make. Afrocentric history is no less wrong than Eurocentric history.

You are apparently so detached from reality that it frankly isn't even worth my time to attempt to ennumerate the many ways in which you are wrong. If you want to discuss this on a case-by-case basis sometimes, I'll see what I can do. But I'll not waste my time trying to make you understand concepts you should have learned in grade school.

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We as a people build temples to gods all the time. We do not bat an eye at such things. You on the other hand seem to think because it is old it must be wrong.

All gods equally false and all churches equally irrelevant. You may not "bat an eye" at such things, but I certainly take affront to such wastes of time and resources, as does most of the scientific community.

[Mithril]

My mind reels.

[Origami]

I may visit the local temple from time to time to pay my respects to my ancestors and to the spirits, but I have never had to deal with the urge to build monuments and idols to something I have no understanding of. I won't judge, it's not my place. There are enough that feel it is their mission to do so.

[Regina Newcastle]

It isn't a matter of being judgmental, mm. Origami. There is such a thing in this world as being just wrong, and that is precisely what theistic views of the world are. More to the point, the animosities that religious conflicts have bred amongst people since mankind developed culture have murdered innocents in the millions and remain poised to tear our world asunder if we cannot dissolve them. It is not mutual recognition and understanding of violently conflicting myths that will lead us to global peace, but a biologically viable theory of secular morals that has no need for faerie stories about gods, devils, hells and heavens. To encourage the worship and proliferation of faith-based world views is to throw petrol on a fire that already threatens to engulf the world.

[Origami]

Hmm, you get defensive, then attack me. I do not worship faeries, Regina. I find Shinto is more real towards my surroundings and to my state of being than anything else.

I just stated I don't understand or wish to judge someone on the matter. I think the problems that stem from religion is the judgemental and discriminatory nature of some of their zealots.

I think you should believe in what you wish to believe.

[Regina Newcastle]

My response was neither defensive nor an attack, but an attempt to explain what you apparently perceived to be an indefensibly rude position.

Tell me, though, in what way do you find Shintoism "real towards your surroundings and your state of being"? When was the last time you had a conversation with a kami? Truly, when you visit the Yasukani Shrine, do you feel righteous? Shinto is a very secularised religion in its current incarnation, but none of its ethoi could not be better served by leaving angels and demons out of it.

I think one should believe in what is true and real. All the wishing in the world will not make false things true. Reality is not a democracy.

[Good Alice]

You point to things and ridicule them. You say that we should not tolerate such things. You say that they cause death and pain. You forget that the death and suffering caused over religion was cause by people who would not tolerate other religions.

The problems you see are caused by people who think they know the right way. The problem are caused when all other ways around. You say that no religion is right because they can cause harm, but what you are saying is because people do not understand or tolerate people who do not think the same way as them, they will use whatever means they think it will take to make people agree with them. If you act like that then you are just as bad the beast you are trying to slay.

Now if you honestly think that religion is problem, that is your belief. You are free to think so, but I believe that the gods are real. I take comfort in knowing this.

By the way Alchemical Laboratories are still around, they just call themselves chemical plants.

[Regina Newcastle]

alchemy:

Function: noun

1: a medieval chemical science and speculative philosophy aiming to achieve the transmutation of the base metals into gold, the discovery of a universal cure for disease, and the discovery of a means of indefinitely prolonging life

chemistry:

Function: noun

1: a science that deals with the composition, structure, and properties of substances and with the transformations that they undergo

Alchemy and chemistry aren't even comparable. The former was a pseudoscientific discipline that at one time served as a stepping-stone to the development of real science, the latter is real science. To compare alchemy to chemistry is akin to comparing trepanation to brain surgery, but only a lunatic would say "We still perform trepanation, we just call it brain surgery."

As to your other point, again, I have to disagree. It isn't the religious extremists who are such a grave threat to our global harmony, it is religious people. To accept a dogma of faith is to accept certain preconceptions about the world, and those preconceptions colour your every decision. In the 1980's, the American Department of Defense made several foreign policy decisions based on the supposition that the Christian Armageddon was impending. Were they "extremists"? Certainly the likes of what happened to Matthew Shepherd or the Houston Tornado at the hands of radical homophobics and Michaelites are extreme, but what of the policy director who quietly deletes the resumes of out homosexuals? Are those the actions of an "extremist"? What about a parent who teaches its child that eternal torment and agony await anyone who isn't baptized or regularly receive the sacrament of the Confessional? Are those actions "extreme"? The fact of the matter is, religion creates an unhealthy and unrealistic view of the world whether you're an extremist or a dabbler, and those dangerous misconceptions about the world can influence foreign policy, the lives of innocent children, how people vote, and how they conduct themselves towards their fellow human beings.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:

By the way Alchemical Laboratories are still around, they just call themselves chemical plants.

Things like this make me wonder why I didn't set off a nuclear war when I had the chance.

[Mithril]

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Originally posted by Hugin:

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Originally posted by Good Alice:

By the way Alchemical Laboratories are still around, they just call themselves chemical plants.

Things like this make me wonder why I didn't set off a nuclear war when I had the chance.

Call me first if another such opportunity comes along. I'd like some warning that it's time to flee this rock.

[Regina Newcastle]

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Originally posted by Girl Made of Titanium:

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Originally posted by Hugin:

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Originally posted by Good Alice:

By the way Alchemical Laboratories are still around, they just call themselves chemical plants.

Things like this make me wonder why I didn't set off a nuclear war when I had the chance.

Call me first if another such opportunity comes along. I'd like some warning that it's time to flee this rock.

Seconded.

[Dreamer]

Lovely, people who only speak of type of religion claim to know them all. It is funny to me. I find just about everything about religion to be funny. I just do not think you should condemn Hellenistic gods on the ground of what someone did in the name of Jesus.

After all one religion says bow down to me or go to hell, the other says let's see what new gods we can find today.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

I guess I don't have a problem with building temples and all, but why build them to some ancient musty old types? Why not to us. I mean, haven't we done more for the world and the baselines then 'ol Jahweh ever did?

[Mithril]

Dreamer: What? Can you rephrase that? I see that you are using English words, but your meaning is impossible to understand.

[Good Alice]

I am not building a temple to Jahweh. I am building a temple to the gods I pray to. I could build a temple to any of the novas around the world. I choose not to. This is not saying other could not build here a temple to any nova they wished. It is just that I do not feel the need to build temples to my peers.

Lemmy you wish to build a temple in your image or the image of any other nova, you are free to do so.

[Mithril]

Alice: You may be a nova, but you're not my peer.

[Wakinyan]

Ohh.. now that is what I am talking about.

[Regina Newcastle]

At least building temples to novas would make some form of sense. When primitive man first took that evolutionary jump from his primate ancestor, geographical and archaeological evidence shows us that one of the first things he did was aggrandise himself and build temples to exalt gods made in his image.

That doesn't make the idea any less odious, but at least it makes sense. The alpha chimps of the pack always need something to beat their chest about and lord over their packmates.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Waitaminute. Does that mean my idea stinks? Fucking ouch.

[Regina Newcastle]

Not that it stinks, Mr. Chillmeister. But in your case, I wonder why you feel that such a monument is necessary. The self-confidence I've seen you project in interviews and vids hasn't given me the impression you suffer from a genuine lack of self worth, so why bother with such an empty gesture? Who gains?

On the other hand, I can see how in your case you might acquire some modicum of schadenfreudic glee in watching the baselines squirming and bowing and scraping in formal progression. I could at least appreciate the humour in such a gesture. Imagine a church to me; 'Church of the Virus'.

[Slattern]

I know what he wants. Temple maidens.

[Wakinyan]

Who doesn't?

[Mithril]

Temple maidens? I'm so there.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Lemmy Chillmeister:
Waitaminute. Does that mean my idea stinks? Fucking ouch.

When did you decide to get some temple action going?

And were thinking ice cathedral?

[Leliel]

It would not surprise me if ego-stroking was behind a lot of the desires for those novas who build temples to other novas, or especially themselves...

If I had a temple, I would have to say it was the energy cocoon of my Chrysalis. A personal experience between my soul and Infinity. I am very spiritual, but do not consider myself at all religious.

The reason is quite simple actually. One does not need organized dogma or hierachies to tell one what to believe. Your soul can touch the Infinite without anyone else to tell you what to believe. Of course, those hierachies do not WANT people to realise this, as it would be the end of their temporal power.

Think of it. What is more terrifying, Burning in quantum fire, or believing what some preacher says when he tells you to obey or you will be damned for eternity?

Temples are monuments to Hubris, nothing more, nothing less. Let your own soul be your guide, and you will find you have no need of temples.

[Good Alice]

Let me bring up a valid point that you all seem to have agreed on. It is rude to call chemistry by the name of alchemy. Yet those two things have more in common than my religion has with any form of religion you Newcastle have out forth as religion. You hold science high and mighty.I too study science. Religion and science do not preclude each other. You can believe in gods and atoms. You on the other hand condemn all religion based on what one type of religion seems to do.

I do not think you understand what polytheistical religion means. I do not think you even understand your hatred of religion. So please tell me if I am wrong.

You have said because monotheistic religions have " Certainly the likes of what happened to Matthew Shepherd or the Houston Tornado at the hands of radical homophobics and Michaelites are extreme, but what of the policy director who quietly deletes the resumes of out homosexuals? Are those the actions of an "extremist"? What about a parent who teaches its child that eternal torment and agony await anyone who isn't baptized or regularly receive the sacrament of the Confessional? Are those actions "extreme"? "

And the answer is yes they are extreme. They are what you get when you use any tool to exploit people. Chrisanity as we know was largely shaped by the hands of people who wanted to control large areas of land. They were extreme then, and the religion is extreme now. For crying out load, their holy semble is that of their god nail to a torture device.

You assume that all religions are like this. That is as short sighted as using the Nazi's human testing and experimenting on humans to condemn science.

I have done studding and I have looked into the past and I have had faith. I know that science, the word and ideal you most likely hold so high means to separate. You look at what is fact and what is not. What isreal and what is false. What is alike and what is diffrent. Something you have not done. You looked at the world, and saw how the religions acted in the world around you and proclaimed that because this how it now, and how it is here.There can be no other way. I do not think you will understand this but if you are willing to practice science and study the subject mater at hand I think you could understand how offensive it is to me that you lump me in with the things Christianity does. Or you could close you eyes and forget what science means, and live your life in utter bliss.

If you wish to see my views I would recommend reading "God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism". I say this book because it talk in depth the ways the religion you talk is different than the one I follow. It is a history book. if you want to find texts about my religious idea and how I talk to the gods, well those are harder to come by due largely to the burning of books.

[Mithril]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:
Religion and science do not preclude each other.

Actually, they do.

The scientific method goes like this:

1) make testable hypothesis.
2) test it.
3) repeat and become smarter.

religion goes like this:

1) state that something unprovable exists.

So, right there, you should be able to see the contradiction.

[Good Alice]

Not entirely true. On either parts, I would point out dark mater.

Science is a religion of numbers that has been proven to make things up when the numbers do not add up. For not only do we have dark mater, we have dark energy.

Now Religion is a tricky subject, even more so these day. use your science to prove why we have novas now.I know it wasn't' because some space ship exploded as the the placement of population and growth of novas do not match any scientifically proven fall out pattern. Even if it was the cause, why?

[Mithril]

I cannot believe that I'm having this discussion in the twenty-first century. Go on, build your stupid temple, wallow in ignorance. I'll point and laugh.

[Regina Newcastle]

I don't think you actually know what dark matter or dark energy is. If you do, as you claim, please explain to me how the existence of either punches holes in the scientific method.

Religion isn't a "tricky" subject, you've simply fallen to the most basic form of intellectual laziness. To say "We can't explain this with the evidence we have right now, therefore god did it" is ridiculous. In science, we say "We can't explain this with the evidence we have right now, so we need to look for more evidence."

It's a bloody good thing imbeciles like you were never at the vanguard of thought. I can only imagine where we'd be if Newton had said "We don't know why bodies move through space, so the Almighty Creator must be responsible."

As Sydney Smith observed, "The best way of answering a bad argument is to let it go on." So in the spirit of that, please, regale me with further examples of your intellectual inadequacies.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Girl Made of Titanium:
I cannot believe that I'm having this discussion in the twenty-first century.

It's sad, right?

Here stands a glaring counterpoint to Divis Mal's proposed all-nova society; cretins and fools still exist, even amongst the "gods".

[Gypsy]

Dark mater, can only be inferred from other sources as we know. the speed of object and such. this is the same as saying god did it. you can't see, dark matter, you can't interact with it. you can't prove it. You can only put numbers in to a pattern and claim because those numbers add up that dark matter must be real. Or you could change the numbers and not need dark matter.

That being said, prove to me dark matter is real. You prove that i will prove to you that the gods are real. After all novas being around because the gods made them has just as much scientific proof as dark matter has.(editing this post asap, this was ment to be Alice)

[Mithril]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy:
Dark mater, can only be inferred from other sources as we know. the speed of object and such. this is the same as saying god did it. you can't see, dark matter, you can't interact with it. you can't prove it. You can only put numbers in to a pattern and claim because those numbers add up that dark matter must be real. Or you could change the numbers and not need dark matter.

That being said, prove to me dark matter is real. You prove that i will prove to you that the gods are real. After all novas being around because the gods made them has just as much scientific proof as dark matter has.

I take back what I said about your run for the Mayor's office in Oakland. Go for it. They deserve you.

[Regina Newcastle]

"In science, fact can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withold provisional assent.'"

As I said before, you don't even know what the word "proof" means.

[Good Alice]

If Galatea's expulsion was the cause of novas then explain the patterns of novas erupting does not correspond to any threories of the fall out. Both in the geographical or cornological meaning.

If dark matter is real, and we know our math is right, then explian how we can only define it with theoretical math? Or explain how if one changes the numbers in our math, we get the same effects without the need to for something that only defines it's self by the fact you can't interact with it. So yes, you and your science has proved that the world works because you say it works.

Now let me get the point which hasn't been made yet. I put forth that science is not the answer to everything. It cannot tell us everything. It can tell us many things, and I do not chalk things up to the divine until all science has proven that what has happened should not have happened. I change my views on what is divine and what isn't based on what I know. Seeing as nothing before the like of N-day has happened before, and nothing like it has happened since, we can't say it is a repeatable event. We have to look at the facts we have now, and the Galatea, explosion doesn't add up to what we have now. If you can prove me wrong then by all means show me.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leliel:
If I had a temple, I would have to say it was the energy cocoon of my Chrysalis. A personal experience between my soul and Infinity. I am very spiritual, but do not consider myself at all religious.

What's a chrysalis. I get its got some kind of energy caccoon going on but what's the chrysalis thingie?

[Leliel]

It is a process by which we of the One Race look within ourselves and shape the evolution of our minds, bodies, and souls. It is a manifestation of the philosophy of Teras, perhaps the ultimate manifestation of our philosophy.

With regards to the whole religion/science angle...

Dark Matter is an example of theoretical science, as opposed to practical or applied science. My personal belief is that dark matter/dark energy is a manifestation of/related to the Dirac Sea. (look it up, would take too long for me to explain it here) In a squickie though, it is the negative energy sea of the quantum universe. It also happens to be the medium that my own quantum powers manipulate.

One day I may go out to one of the supposed masses of dark matter to investigate. That will take a while longer, and probably at least one more Chrysalis before I am capable of travelling that far into space.

The border of theoretical science and religion is that theoretical science has the potential of being proved (or disproved). In the example above if I one day go to a position physicists believe dark matter exists at...I would either prove or disprove the theory. One cannot do the same thing with the existence of God or gods.

The other critical point to the scientific method is reproducable results. That is the biggest sticking point with trying to prove/disprove the existance of the divine.