Canon II - N! Prime

Widget · February 1, 2003

Okay, Prodigy's discussion of "Canon: Good or Bad" has shifted back to the situation here at the forums so I thought the change might merit starting a new topic.

I've had very limited things to say just because I haven't been here forever like some of you. But after reading (and in some cases suffering) through the old threads and stories I find I do have something to add.

Part of this is in response to the ideas Avatar (Canon Thread), made arguing part of the problems stem from people treating N! Prime as a table top when it is not.

And in advance...? I use Endeavor and Widget for some examples. I hope no one gets their nose bent over anything.

I think of this as like a franchise of television shows. Not as rigidly formal like Law And Order or CSI, more like the WB dark shows where Buffy the Vampire Slayer (B:tVS), Angel and Charmed can all (theoretically) take place in the same world while rarely interacting. Don't laugh - I'm actually going somewhere with this.

In a table top game we have total control over the environment of the game world through the ST. The ground rules are already set up and we'll rapidly learn how hard it is to change the world, or at least affect it, and what we can get away with. There are surprises, plot twists and unexpected resistance but we know we can do in potential. And as a group there's acceptance or rejection and immediate feedback of character concepts so if anime girl doesn't fit in she knows it pretty quickly and why. If everybody wants to biff the bad guys then the superbrain better find a way to support that or come up with another concept because no one else is interested in the subtle power plays.

Then you have live action. In a live action game (LARP) the world is static. You're there to interact with characters not the world itself and changes to the world are committee decisions or at least take time for review and telling people what's changed. If you find someone too tedious for words you can walk away from them.

So we've got these individual takes based on a common framework, the Aberrant game, and they form franchises of little sub-cultures within the larger framework. You may not like what I do but so long as it doesn't disrupt your framework you can ignore or cross-over into mine as you choose. So one player doesn't like/grasp the effect of an organization like Proteus has on the world just by existing? No big deal because they do not, and SHOULD NOT, interact with Proteus even indirectly by the courses of action they commit to. Let's define some sub-cultures here so we can talk about interacting

A. Endeavor plays in a wonderful little comic book cum anime sub-culture where another nova can be her surrogate mother, her fitness instructor is a nova, and her day is spent shuffling papers or DJing in a place where there are no real consequences. She fancies herself queen of the Opnet and is in the top 20 minds on the planet. She might even believe in magic, she doesn't call it that, but the mystique and mystery of it forms the groundwork of her sub-culture.

B. Widget's culture is a darker (though angst free) zone where hyper evolved intellects are used for more than better die rolls. Seeing the world through her eyes is about probabilities and causal relationships. Magic is a distortion of physics she hasn't got around to cataloguing yet. She cracks codes or solves interstellar launch window problems in seconds rather than months.

Since by die rolls Widgets assistant could out-hack Endeavor, and Endeavor hasn't seen evidence for the existence of the gnomes of Zurich, they must exist in completely seperate world right?

Umm... no. Not really. Because of...

1. Subjective vs Objective Facts;

(a). Utopia didn't rate Endeavor number 20 intellect on the planet, she did it herself. She's never run into someone as powerful or capable as Synapse who (sorry Endeavor) would beat her like a red headed step child in the Opnet. Everything she believes is true from her subjective point of view.

(. Widget is rated on intellectual achievement by Utopia (not top 20 by the way) and has run into someone like Synapse. She's seen first hand what he's capable of.

Sounds like their worlds are going to conflict doesn't it? Although it seems strange they probably won't though. Not unless Widget or Endeavor take an interest in proving their world view is the objectively correct one. Endeavor's player and I have may have a little friction over what constitutes a mind game but so what? Endeavor doesn't involve herself in the affairs of Widget and visa versa.

Most conflicts are going to be personal rather than the world type just because their opinions are opposed not their worlds. Something happens to Endeavor and she chalks it up to bad luck or coincidence while when something happens to Widget she goes looking deeper for causal relationships and ignores seeming coincidences. If they try to interact as characters its going to be a little messy but its possible.

The one exception to all of that is when someone throws up a plot hook without setup, discussion or a plot to go with it. I've seen examples of this in the old threads and I have to tell you guy, speaking strictly as a newbie, that I do not know what the heck you were thinking when you did it.

The AI hunt is a good recent example of this. Its kind of obvious that whoever came up with the idea just wanted the AI to be a "villain" to grapple with. Okay, but while those people were whipping out the torches to go on a Frankenstein monster hunt, the other folks were trying to act to protect it or at least study it.

Having spoken with a couple of people that were here when it was happening and then re-reading the threads involving it... My opinion is that the only reason someone's character didn't get put into the hospital is that this is an unmoderated board. If it had been a game someone would have ended up dead.

Why would someone start a plot like that for free participation and then ignore what the other characters want to do with it?

*sigh*

I like this place but I can't figure some of you out.

Widget,

Sakurako Hino · February 2, 2003

BTW, Endeavor's thinking of her being the Queen of the opnet... That's Ego. As for doing things of no real consequence, well... Life isn't all firefights and bareknuckle brawling. It's... Living.

As for the shuffling papers, well, Endeavor has to earn money somehow. That inheritance money dissapeared sort of quick.

As for the anime lifestyle thing... Well, we've travelled that road so many times, it's permanently engraved in the dirt. So I won't go into that.

I do agree though. Endeavor believes in the fantastic, yet can get so closed minded, that to one who thinks it's a miracle, she thinks of it as only coincidence.

That's the problem of having a node enhanced mind. You start to have problems connecting and realizing the fantastic.

Widget · February 2, 2003

This wasn't a critique of Endeavor the character so please don't take it as one. It wasn't a list of her faults rather it was drawing attention to her defining characteristics in order to contrast them to those of another character to illustrate a point. I used Endeavor because;

Widget's interacted with her a bit lately.
They have obviously divergent viewpoints.
Endeavor's worldview seems to have changed the least over time.

Not to say she ignores reality but she has an uncanny knack for incorporating new information into her existing belief structure without breaking a sweat.

Added note; It would have been simpler to say Endeavor is a superhero in a world without superheroes but then someone would have asked me what I meant.

Widget,

Sakurako Hino · February 2, 2003

Oh no no no.

I don't take that as an attack. I didn't mean what I said as a defense.

Oops... I forgot to notice how she does grasp new concepts.

You see, the whole point of Endeavor is well... I was thinking about this one day. Endeavor represents Mankind's old dreams. Endeavor believes that Humanity is now unable to open themselves to the fantastic. Because they have been blinded by the novas. Their power.

Endeavor cannot stand the subculture that treats novas like some sort of convention genere.

Although she has her faults, don't we all?

Now, back to the thread, already in progress.

You do have an interesting analogy. Endeavor is more of the "kid". Yet to find her way, and yet to find herself. While Widget is more comfortable with her (Widget is female is she? If not, sorry.) identity, and is looking for philosophical and spiritual growth.

Did I nail that on the head? Or am I lost at a lagrange point?

Hugin · February 2, 2003

Widget you've hit on some things very nicely, newbie or no. Nice to have a fresh perspective of our disfunctional little troupe.

The problem lies in the fact that simply not interacting with certain persons can make staying here and participating difficult at best and infuriating at worst.

Hell, I've already been a bit of a bastard, so I'll go whole hog. The reason I've been staying off the in character boards is that I can't abide by Sandy in either of her forms. She's explained herself and some here seem to accept her reasons and continue to interact with her. I can't. Even at her most lucid I find her incoherent and rambling. So, I tried not to interact with her. Roleplaying-wise I had good reason; Prodigy is a blatant elitist and a towering bigot when it comes to Nova's without enhanced intellect. But I found myself avoiding threads because Sandy was involved. I didn't feel that I could try to have conversations with everyone on the thread except her, it wouldn't work for me. I would have been interested in getting involved in Vixen's first fiction thread and the follow up thread at the AmpRoom, but again, I didn't simply because I couldn't see being involved and trying to avoid Sandy.

Now, do I think Endeavor, Doc Troll or company are wrong for interacting with her? No. They probably are simply more open than I am and good on them for that. I have my opinions, they have theirs and mine are only hurting myself.

So, in the past we've had some doozies, Dr. Cornielius comes to mind, but he was more intent on playing with himself (yes, that was intended) than in really interacting with anyone else. Sandy, for all of the fault that I perceive, is more interested in getting out there and being a part of the mix. Simply ignoring her just doesn't seem to work. I can't ignore her, and I don't think my presence is any more inherently valuable than her's, so, I choose to do what I've done. Lurk in character until I feel differently and occasionally post OOC.

Widget · February 2, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
Or am I lost at a lagrange point?

I wasn't analyzing either character's motivation(s). Only using the contrast between their views to illustrate a point. What they believe isn't important but how that contrast between two different views affects interaction is. To that end I provided a thumbnail sketch of each.

I didn't refer to Endeavor's "world" as comic cum anime because of her reading habits or costume.

Is that clearer?

Widget,

Widget · February 2, 2003

Prodigy thank you for the kind words. I hope in the future to have the opportunity to interact with Prodigy. Even though he may find her lacking in social graces.

Just because I can't seem to find the threads; Doctor Cornelius is the guy with the uplifted green chimps that owned a planet and waged interstellar wars with aliens?

Widget,

Sakurako Hino · February 2, 2003

Null sweat, Widget.

Apep · February 2, 2003

Um those stupid chimps were blue weren't they? Every time I think I've forgotten about that someone has to remind me

Widget · February 2, 2003

Sorry Apep.

I can't even type the description without grinning like a madwoman. Colored chimps. It really is funny when you think about it.

Heh.

Widget,

Nimrod · February 13, 2003

You make some great points here, Widget.

As for myself and my friends who have been sometimes visitors to these forums (Argent and Gwyneth Marlowe, for those of you who might remember them), I´ve always felt like little bit of an intruder into some invisible semi-canon master plotline whenever I´ve stepped into the fray on the IC forums. I guess that´s why I picked a bastard like Nimrod, and still made him rather laid-back in his views; it sort of gives me a double alibi should things get rough, or should I feel like I stepped onto someone´s toes.

It´s tough going, playing around with so many eloquent people who at the same time seem to have some pretty strong views on the world of Aberrant and its´ denizens. They have, on the other hand, almost always been very gracious when dealing with conflicting worldviews - with the possible exception of Avenger, whom I haven´t seen around for some time.

I´ll readily admit that I´m scared shitless of ever stepping into a heated debate with someone like Ashnod or Meehan, who apart from being intelligent and literate people seem to have Nova powers of their own when it comes to remembering as well as filling in the dots between obscure Aberrant source books. As for me, I´ve read most of them, and interacted with a lot of canon personalities in TT games (there we have that "canon" thingie again, non?)... but I´m still extremely reluctant to bring that stuff into N!Prime, since other people will most definitely have other views on a lot of the characters involved.

It would, for example, be easy for me to say that Nimrod have repeatedly smacked up Geryon and made him his bitch (which, the last part excluded, actually has happened in a chronicle), but to bring it up around here would be to tread on shaky ground, since it would make for a lot of unpredictable IC side effects.

On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoy interacting with all of you people and hive high hopes for the future. No matter how much of a snide bastard Nimrod can be, I´m continually (and pleasantly) surprised at the quality of roleplaying going in within the figurative walls of this site.

And Meehan: no hard feelings about the "wanker" part?

-Nimrod

Hugin · February 13, 2003

No hard feelings at all, mostly because Prodigy is a wanker.

I've not had any problems with your posts, you seem to do quite well at interacting and existing within the framework we have around here. As for busting canon, yes, declaring yourself the superior of a universally recognized canon figure could be seen as a bit wonky. Some here view it as a sloppy attempt to define how cool your character is without really having to do anything. While in your TT game it might have been a perfectly natural part of the game, one of the defining moments of a chronicle, here we don't get that, it just comes out of the blue and seems contrived most of the time. However, there are other ways to do it. Create an NPC, give us his history, only a couple posts, maybe a vignette to make him real to us and then smack him down. Jordon Rossi's player has put together a very nice non-canon, but effective tool to flesh out his character, Solar Solutions, a novacentric company. Non-canonical in that it doesn't exist in canon, but in no way does it alter or harm the ability of everyone here to still work in a universe based on canon.

I think your most recent post is an excellent example of defining a character as a badass without having to say "Oi, me just stomped up Pax. Oh Yeah!!" You let us know you were going to do something newsworthy and told us to keep an eye out. Our resident enhancer of image, Jager, did what he always did, and steps in with a bit more data to make it sound like you pulled something impressive off. Nobody had to get too specific, because hey, we all read the same OpNet News right? We all know what Nimrod did thanks to his hints. No real need for too many specifics. Very well done and I say bravo.

Matt · February 13, 2003

Nimrod, getting your character involved with the OpNet Board isn't incredibly difficult, with one exception. Remember that it is unmoderated, so that means there are no rules, other than on an individual basis, where everyone is capable of believing what they want to. Even my comments here don't hold any more weight than yours or anyone else's.

To get you character more involved, and hopefully get more respect from there other players, usually involves 1 of 2 things. First, time. People can play characters of any power level here, but deciding to play a powerhouse doesn't mean that people are going to have any more respect for your character. And shouting won't get you anywhere, unless your name is TUM TUM.

The second option is fiction. You can do things in there that are impossible in the OpNet Board, even though it still abides by the 1 main rule that people can choose whether to believe it or not. Fiction can get a lot of info about your character's background into the public. Also, it can help to build credibility into any story. If you claim a certain action, people will make a snap decision on it. If you can write up something explaining the details, I think people will be much more likely to go along with it.

Regarding your charater and Geryon, I would say it is sort of one of the taboos of the forum. Sure, in your TT game you can do whatever you want to Geryon, but in someone else's you didn't do that action. Defining your character in comparison to a canon character will never fly around here. Or, in the words of Jack Chance:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:

If it helps; my personal approach is to know in advance why I'm using a canon character. Then mentally subtract the canon character from the proposed story to see if there is still a story to tell. If the answer is no then the story must be about that canon character and I have to rethink what I'm doing.

This isn't a TT game, and people that try to play it as that will always have a rough go at it. When discussing your character here, think of ways that you can build yourself up, without stepping on anyone's toes. It may require people to think a little bit more, but I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing.

My suggestion is to always build your own niche in the world. You don't have to be the character that beat Geryon to be interesting. It's a big world, with a lot of areas that haven't been covered in any of the books or by players in this forum.

Canon II - N! Prime

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Archived