opnet [OpNet] WWSD

[Tekk One]

Quote:

Originally posted by Revenant:
As for Brother Jacob.

Why do you guys even bother? Seriously, you people do this every time this guy pops in here.

He digs into our shit, and rustles our feathers with his religious preaching.

You guys all rush in to state your two cents, which usually falls into line with trying to prove him wrong, or hurt his feelings.

He replies to you with just as much vigor as he did before.

Wash, repeat.

For an enlightened race and a bunch of mega minds, you all are pretty fuckin' dumb. He's not going to change his point of view just because you toss a nasty OpNet net post his way, or try to convince him in the error of his ways.

Trying to best this guy over the OpNet is like winning the Special Olympics, you can win, but you're still retarded.

Get rid of his ass in person, or just shut the fuck up and quit provoking him.

You know Revenant, your fuckin' right. Somebody should deal with this and that somebody will be me.

[Neil Preston]

How about thou shall not kill?

If you kill people because they (threaten/annoy/get in your way/ect.) you end up either dead, or alone.

Both Novas and Humans are social creatures. Even transcended novas still seek out companionship, a mentor, or students.

sigh It is so sad that of all the traits of Humanity we choose to set aside, the willingness to kill other to solve our problems is not one of them. Humans have been killing each other for tens of thousands of years. Is this a trait we want to emulate?

Listen, CoMA has tried to kill me, the woman I love, my brother, and one of my best friends in the world. I don't want them dead, nor do I hate them. To hate and kill them is to give into their way of thinking. How about we spend more time looking out for one another instead?

Paraphrasing Emerald, dead men are incapable of changing their minds.

Also, Emerald I humbly apologize for missing our meeting. A civil war broke out in Central Asia and I felt I needed to go there and help out. Can we reschedule?

[Tekk One]

Mr. Preston looking out for them!! Do you hear what your saying? To lookout for someone who despies me for what I am, and tries to kill me or other Nova's doesn't deserve to that kind of treatment in my book.

You can try to play peacekeeper all you want, but having even had CoMA attack you, and still you do nothing tells me that your not willing to stand up for your fellow Nova's. That is rather disturbing to me.

[z-Carver]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tekk One:
Mr. Preston looking out for them!! Do you hear what your saying? To lookout for someone who despies me for what I am, and tries to kill me or other Nova's doesn't deserve to that kind of treatment in my book.

You can try to play peacekeeper all you want, but having even had CoMA attack you, and still you do nothing tells me that your not willing to stand up for your fellow Nova's. That is rather disturbing to me.

It's not a matter of not standing up for our fellow novas. It's a matter of not painting all the CoMA with the same brush, and it's a matter of not killing those who only mouth off. Who here has Brother Jacob physically hurt? Who here has lost someone because of him? He comes out here, and he states his opinion, and that is his right. Just as it is your right, Tekk, to say he is wrong. And I will defend both of you in this regard.

Tekk, you do realize you are threatening a man who couldn't hurt you in a fist fight. You are a nova. You have power that he will never have. If you want to squash this fly, feel free. But you will only fuel the hate and terror that the other Michaelites feel for us. Don't stoop to their level - ignore their pompous, ignorant teachings, and when they do break the law, turn them over to the authorities. Let The Man be the "bad guy," and let us be the citizens who forego acting like animals and instead act like civilized beings.

[Tekk One]

Yes I do realize that I could squash this guy at any time. It doesn't matter if he's hurt any one before, it's the thought that he can and would hurt someone that matters.

Your are correct to say that it's his right to spew that disgustful stuff, and I listened to it enough. How many dead Nova's by their hands will it take for anyone else to stand up to this bullshit, and letting the "Man" be the bad guy is just as sad.

Thanks for your opinion Carver, while full of hope it's something that I doubt will ever happen.

[Neil Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tekk One:
Mr. Preston looking out for them!! Do you hear what your saying?

My meaning was unclear. When I said 'we should look out for one another', I meant 'novas should look out for other novas'. I don't deny that CoMA is a threat. I am very aware of how much a threat they are. This was more of an appeal for the older and stronger novas to look after and defend one another. My bad.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tekk One:
You can try to play peacekeeper all you want, but having even had CoMA attack you, and still you do nothing tells me that your not willing to stand up for your fellow Nova's. That is rather disturbing to me.

Excuse me? I do stand up for my fellow novas, but I choose not to do it with a clenched fist.
You want to strike down people much weaker than yourself because of their delusions and you are calling me weak?
I have the strength to be who I am (a healer), not who someone else would like me to be(a demon).
I have bled for my kind and I have bled for humanity. Both have been my choice to do.
I have saved the lives of novas, just as I have saved the lives of humans. I've seen more than my fair share of hate and death, thank you very much.
Who the hell are you to question my courage, or my committment to My People, you fucktard?

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Quote:

fucktard

Daaaaaaaaamn. I don't think I've ever seen Neil swear like that on the forum before.

Anyway, this is the same church that tried to drive the demon out of me and Meghan using a sniper rifle. I'm not impressed.

[Brother Jacob]

Flicker,

There are some congregations within the Church that do not believe in the possibility of redemption for those who have been demon-ridden. They take a very Calvanistic stance regarding pre-destination, and it is in contrast to the Word of God that they do so. That your encounter was with such a congregation is unfortunate.

Other congregations recognize the fact that it is the demon, not the host, that is irredeemable in the eyes of God, and that by removing the demon, one can be saved. You can be cleansed, Nova Madigan, I assure you. It would not be easy by any means, but it can be done...and if you wish to save your immortal soul, it must be done.

I have said all that can be said on the topic here in this thread. Salvation or damnation is, at the end of the day, your choice.

[Emerald]

Frère... what is the autorité of your church? I am Émeraude le chasseur under warrant of the Archibishop of Lyons with the Papal Sanction to protect the peoples. In time of need my assistance is given unto the Police Nationale by autorité of Mssr de Balloch. What is it you see that cannot be seen by Mother Church or La France.

Many seek to judgment me. But God is my Judge and to his care is conmmend my soul. By what autorité can you say this is not as it should be?

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:

... fucktard?

What is this fucktard? I search all my books and this word is there not.

[Neil Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by Emerald:

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
... fucktard?

What is this fucktard? I search all my books and this word is there not.

Fucktard is an insult brought into common usage by Juri 'Salamander' McClendon. To get the precise definition, you would have to contact her.

[Wakinyan]

Meaning you are not just retarded.. You are FUCKING RETARDED.

[GDP_ST]

Velvet,

My apologies. You're right, the simian reference was simply poo-flinging from the other side of the fence. I was having a bad day there: that's not an excuse for my behaviour, just the reason.

I'm very surprised that the CoMA isn't treated as a full-on terrorist organisation. Even those supposedly 'peaceful' congregations still incite hatred on both sides of the debate, as my earlier slip demonstrated. I'm not sure how it is in America, but in the U.K and some other countries that sort of ranting constitutes 'Behaviour Likely to Cause a Breach of the Peace'.

A criminal offence.

It says something about 'law' and 'order' that these fanatics haven't all been rounded up and deprogrammed before they really mess things up.

[Emerald]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:
Also, Emerald I humbly apologize for missing our meeting. A civil war broke out in Central Asia and I felt I needed to go there and help out. Can we reschedule?

There is never need to be apologétique for la façon généreuse Mssr Preston.

We will meet. This is certitude absolue. Soon but not this very day.

[Tekk One]

Quote:

Originally posted by Neil Preston:

Who the hell are you to question my courage, or my committment to My People, you fucktard?

Fucktard huh, thanks for that I needed the laugh Mr. Preston.

Well I guess some people have to much hope that things will work out. Good luck in lala land.

[z-Carver]

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
I'm very surprised that the CoMA isn't treated as a full-on terrorist organization. Even those supposedly 'peaceful' congregations still incite hatred on both sides of the debate, as my earlier slip demonstrated. I'm not sure how it is in America, but in the U.K and some other countries that sort of ranting constitutes 'Behaviour Likely to Cause a Breach of the Peace'.

A criminal offence.

It says something about 'law' and 'order' that these fanatics haven't all been rounded up and deprogrammed before they really mess things up.

In America, we have the right to say what we want to say, to a degree. In fact, the majority of CoMA does not support violence against anyone, even the people they view as demons. Many of them condemn the violence against novas. What you have are a few fanatics making trouble for everyone. They should be jailed as individuals harming the public peace.

Michaelites have the right to believe what they believe, just as we have the right to believe that they are wrong. Taking away their freedom to peacefully express their views makes us the oppressor. Is that what we want? To be the tyrannical nova overlords?

Oh, and "deprogrammed?" How very 1980 of you.

[z-Carver]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tekk One:
Fucktard huh, thanks for that I needed the laugh Mr. Preston.

Well I guess some people have to much hope that things will work out. Good luck in lala land.

It's not lala land. It's called civilized action and discourse. It's a courtesy you extend to other sentient beings. You should try it sometime; you might like it.

[Regina Newcastle]

I don't know that I would necessarily accord beings so ignorant of the facts of biological science with the term "sentient", Carver. You may be extending the Church of Michael Archangel a bit too much credit. Their stifled mental faculties place them a whisper above the bonobo chimpanzee.

[Neil Preston]

Tekk One, if all you got out of that was one word ...

Damn, that's just sad.

CoMA is not an illegal organization. Personally, I think their sect sucks and I enjoy the ability to say that as often as I want. My Father makes a big deal about both personal freedom and social freedom (the level of restriction societies place upon its member). As long as you understand that you are against both principles of freedom, we're good.

It is illegal to summarily kill any person in the civilized world for the sole reason that they exist. The Civilized World would be that place were people do not run around trying to kill one another. It would be that place were the Rule of Law is respected and Freedom flourishes.

[Regina Newcastle]

That's true, Neil, but I thought the crux of the American legal system was that each citizen is bound to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, which guarantees every citizen the inalienable right to "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...". The Church of Michael Archangel seems to aim at stripping all three of those from all novas. Not exactly what one might call upholding the implied social contract.

I have to confess a small chuckle when you mentioned that "it's illegal to kill any person in the civilized world for the sole reason that they exist". It's handy that defintion doesn't extend to the "civilized world" making war on the uncivilized world, ennit? You Yanks certainly aren't any more guilty of that than we Brits, I merely meant to underscore the absurdity of the notion that life is somehow sacred or revered as a result of "civilization".

[Emerald]

The law of man is as the wind. First it blows from the east, then from the west. This is the nature of man. It is the nature of free will. That does not change when many men agree and it is what you call civilized.

Life is precious. This does not change when the life is or is not nova.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Wakinyan:

Meaning you are not just retarded.. You are FUCKING RETARDED.

I understand now. This is most vulgar.

[Neil Preston]

RN, in my travels I've learned that the best way to understand how "civilized" a place can be is to see if the average citizen sees the Police as Honest and Just.

As for CoMA, their actual 'official' doctrine is that novas are to be avoided as we novas are hellish spirits who have taken over the bodies of humans. Mostly, its about fear. Unfortunately, fear leads to often to hate.

Now, us Yanks do appreciate our Freedom Of Religion. Too bad it isn't also Freedom From Religion.

[z-Silvestru]

Wow... this has gotten way off-topic, hasn't it? Sorry, Satyr - you've been preempted.

[z-Carver]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
I don't know that I would necessarily accord beings so ignorant of the facts of biological science with the term "sentient", Carver. You may be extending the Church of Michael Archangel a bit too much credit. Their stifled mental faculties place them a whisper above the bonobo chimpanzee.

Which makes it alright to talk about killing them, or to actually kill them? I've met (was kidnapped by, actually) a nova whose IQ was well below 100. His faculties were a whisper above a bonobo's as well. Is it ok to kill him, too? Are we going to decide who lives and dies based on their intellect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
That's true, Neil, but I thought the crux of the American legal system was that each citizen is bound to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, which guarantees every citizen the inalienable right to "...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...". The Church of Michael Archangel seems to aim at stripping all three of those from all novas. Not exactly what one might call upholding the implied social contract.

The church has the right to talk about stripping rights from novas, just as the KKK has the right to talk about doing the same to African Americans. And most of the church does just that - talk. Very few actually act on their beliefs, thankfully. Most uphold the social contract very well - they work, have families, live their lives, and leave us alone.

[Satyr]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sylvan:
Wow... this has gotten way off-topic, hasn't it? Sorry, Satyr - you've been preempted.

Thats a bold faced lie! I've never been 'pre-' anything.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver:
Which makes it alright to talk about killing them, or to actually kill them? I've met (was kidnapped by, actually) a nova whose IQ was well below 100. His faculties were a whisper above a bonobo's as well. Is it ok to kill him, too? Are we going to decide who lives and dies based on their intellect?

I wasn't speaking of killing anyone, Carver, merely pointing out that sentience doesn't necessarily provide the most solid litmus for deciding who is worth keeping and who is worth getting rid of. Many apes are smarter than some baselines with certain neurological disorders, and yet killing an ape would be far more acceptable to most than killing a developmentally retarded child.

I hope and work for a society that praises and rewards individual merit. Usefulness to your social cluster and a reflection of a broad sense of duty to entities outside yourself. Empirically measuring the worth of every individual creature would be a nightmare of numbers and blood, but there are many of whom we can say contribute nothing of substantial worth and, in fact, are a detriment to the larger herd. Any reasonable pack either kills such aberrations or puts them to some use.

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver:
The church has the right to talk about stripping rights from novas, just as the KKK has the right to talk about doing the same to African Americans. And most of the church does just that - talk. Very few actually act on their beliefs, thankfully. Most uphold the social contract very well - they work, have families, live their lives, and leave us alone.

Americans are obsessed with their rights. I suppose that's symptomatic of an unlimited democracy; freely give away sovereign authority over the state without educating in how to weild it, and you have children asking for the impossible. The freedom of speech you hold so highly doesn't exist in a vacuum; the shadow side of tolerance is losing a sense of the intolerable.

[Mithril]

I knew there was a reason I liked you, Regina. By the way, I'm almost to London now. I can tell because I'm starting to get signal on my laptop again.

Yes, I'm flying from Rio to London. It's been a bloody long week and a half to be sure.

[Lee Jones]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
...the Church of Michael Archangel a bit too much credit. Their stifled mental faculties place them a whisper above the bonobo chimpanzee.

Well hold on a minute! Don't you think that's just a bit insulting...


for chimps and bonobos?

[Y.T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Satyr:
What Would Satyr Do?

feel free to volunteer your answers.

I think Satyr would close this thread down.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
...I hope and work for a society that praises and rewards individual merit. Usefulness to your social cluster and a reflection of a broad sense of duty to entities outside yourself. Empirically measuring the worth of every individual creature would be a nightmare of numbers and blood, but there are many of whom we can say contribute nothing of substantial worth and, in fact, are a detriment to the larger herd. Any reasonable pack either kills such aberrations or puts them to some use.

----

Americans are obsessed with their rights. I suppose that's symptomatic of an unlimited democracy; freely give away sovereign authority over the state without educating in how to weild it, and you have children asking for the impossible. The freedom of speech you hold so highly doesn't exist in a vacuum; the shadow side of tolerance is losing a sense of the intolerable.

Ms Newcastle,

To borrow a phrase from a young friend of mine, I'm highly interested in subscribing to your newsletter. I will, of course understand if you do not wish to speak with me, but I hope you consider the notion. Whichever choice you make, good luck with your goals.

- Procyon

[Satyr]

Quote:

Originally posted by Y.T.:
I think Satyr would close this thread down.

You may be correct about that, if only to end the tirade from and about CoMA.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[Sujatmi]

What would Satyr do with COMA?

Turn them into sex-mad worshippers of horned gods.

[GDP_ST]

That's a good way to deal with enemies...

[Trooper]

I've heard less talking of shit around a table of half-mad Congolese soldiers high on cheap vodka.

You are fisety bunch aren't you?

[GDP_ST]

Fiesty speech is better than multi-million dollar property damage.

Wait, I'm talking to an 'Elite'. *smacks forehead with a doh! sound*

Pretend I said nothing.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Girl Made of Titanium:
I knew there was a reason I liked you, Regina. By the way, I'm almost to London now. I can tell because I'm starting to get signal on my laptop again.

Aces! Drop me a line when you get in the area and I'll arrange to nip over and get you. As I said, the cheer is poor in my flat, but I've a spare bunk I can roll out, and you're welcome to use mine. Look forward to seeing you, Ti22.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Jones:
Well hold on a minute! Don't you think that's just a bit insulting...


for chimps and bonobos?

Be equitable, Doctor Jones. Bonobos are hardly known for their altruistic behavior; Lorenz and Gighlieri showed nearly fifty years ago that human behavior such as rape, murder, war and genocide all find their gnarled roots in the primate family.
That said, I don't know a single primate other than man who could delight in NASCAR. Honestly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
To borrow a phrase from a young friend of mine, I'm highly interested in subscribing to your newsletter. I will, of course understand if you do not wish to speak with me, but I hope you consider the notion. Whichever choice you make, good luck with your goals.

I have to admit some small amount of surprise, Mr. Procyon. I had genuinely not expected to garner such attention or praise from such a luminous member of the Teragen as yourself in such a short while as I've been active. Thank you for taking notice.
As to my newsletter, I can assure you that I have plans for various endeavors in their infancy, but none of them shall be so subtle as a written manifesto.

Perhaps we shall have to speak at greater length sometime. While I am hesitant - to say the least - to rally under any banner but my own, the Teragen philosophy, at least, is of interest to me. Most fascinating about it is the fact that all novas therein have managed to accept what I perceive to be the first and most basic biological principal of our new existence; we are no longer human.

[z-Carver]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
I wasn't speaking of killing anyone, Carver, merely pointing out that sentience doesn't necessarily provide the most solid litmus for deciding who is worth keeping and who is worth getting rid of. Many apes are smarter than some baselines with certain neurological disorders, and yet killing an ape would be far more acceptable to most than killing a developmentally retarded child.

Sentience, despite my own earlier statement, is not resolved by intelligence alone. It has as much to do with the spiritual and emotional abilities of a creature as it does with their mental capabilities. Most would agree that an ape has no sense of higher beings or the ability to appreciate art, while a developmentally retarded child can. If it were just smarts... well, my computer is smarter than most of us.

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
I hope and work for a society that praises and rewards individual merit. Usefulness to your social cluster and a reflection of a broad sense of duty to entities outside yourself. Empirically measuring the worth of every individual creature would be a nightmare of numbers and blood, but there are many of whom we can say contribute nothing of substantial worth and, in fact, are a detriment to the larger herd. Any reasonable pack either kills such aberrations or puts them to some use.

"Any reasonable pack?" We're not animals, Regina (we are mammals, but is not the way I'm using animal here). I have to admit some curiosity about what you consider to be a contribution of "substantial worth," as well as what uses such "aberrants" could be put to. Would you please elaborate more?

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
Americans are obsessed with their rights. I suppose that's symptomatic of an unlimited democracy; freely give away sovereign authority over the state without educating in how to weild it, and you have children asking for the impossible. The freedom of speech you hold so highly doesn't exist in a vacuum; the shadow side of tolerance is losing a sense of the intolerable.

Yes, but that is not a quantitative measurement - where is intolerable? What is intolerable to one is perfectly tolerable to another, or we wouldn't be having this argument. Obviously, I don't care if CoMA talks about taking away my rights or killing me, so long as all they do is talk. Just because I support their right to talk about it doesn't mean that I'll let them do it, and that is the difference for me - whether they are talking or whether they are doing. Let them talk - no skin off my back.

[Neil Preston]

SIGH

WWSD?

Draw a large square in the sand and say,

"Okay girls! Get into your cornere, get naked, and come out fighting!"

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver:
Sentience, despite my own earlier statement, is not resolved by intelligence alone. It has as much to do with the spiritual and emotional abilities of a creature as it does with their mental capabilities. Most would agree that an ape has no sense of higher beings or the ability to appreciate art, while a developmentally retarded child can. If it were just smarts... well, my computer is smarter than most of us.

Not me.

Let me back you up a step; for starters, I don't believe in any "spiritual" abilities, and I'm frankly a little embarrassed for people who do. If you're going to talk about emotional quotient, then your argument still fails. As early as the 1990's, gorillas were passing the self-recognition test and communicating via sign language with human beings. Most probably would agree that an ape has "no sense of higher being", but they would also be incorrect. Can the same be said of a child with autism?

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver:
"Any reasonable pack?" We're not animals, Regina (we are mammals, but is not the way I'm using animal here). I have to admit some curiosity about what you consider to be a contribution of "substantial worth," as well as what uses such "aberrants" could be put to. Would you please elaborate more?

Not in any meaningful way. You would disagree with me because you're originating from a completely different moral compass, and as I said before, such an undertaking would be little more than an exercise in pedantry unless you were to put it into action. And I'm not yet prepared to start a culling purge. I guess you'll have to take me by my word that by my reckoning, it's all very mathematical. However, I'm presently the arbiter of nobody's fate.

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver:
Yes, but that is not a quantitative measurement - where is intolerable? What is intolerable to one is perfectly tolerable to another, or we wouldn't be having this argument. ... Let them talk - no skin off my back.

Intolerable is a provisional subjective, of course, but society requires consensus to function.
From the beginning, I wasn't advocating murdering baselines, no matter how ignorant, in much the same way that I wouldn't eradicate warring tribes of chimpanzees. However, I also would not permit said chimpanzees to sup at my table and threaten my life.

[Trooper]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Jones:
Well hold on a minute! Don't you think that's just a bit insulting...


for chimps and bonobos?

Be equitable, Doctor Jones. Bonobos are hardly known for their altruistic behavior; Lorenz and Gighlieri showed nearly fifty years ago that human behavior such as rape, murder, war and genocide all find their gnarled roots in the primate family.
That said, I don't know a single primate other than man who could delight in NASCAR. Honestly.

Sorry for interupting but if my Discover Channel science education is correct Bonobos (Pan paniscus) are actually pretty calm little hippie chimps. No rape, murder or war. Those are the Common Chimps (Pan troglodytes),

[Lee Jones]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
Be equitable, Doctor Jones. Bonobos are hardly known for their altruistic behavior; Lorenz and Gighlieri showed nearly fifty years ago that human behavior such as rape, murder, war and genocide all find their gnarled roots in the primate family.
That said, I don't know a single primate other than man who could delight in NASCAR. Honestly.

It was a joke based on your comment that their 'mental faculties' being 'a whisper above the bonobo chimpanzee.' I think it's hardly fair to say that CoMA's more vocal and fanatical members are smarter than chimps. If I had to be in a room for a day with either, I'd choose the bonobos, better conversation and less poo flinging. All of that antique dust in Oxford is interfering with you funny bone

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:
Sorry for interupting but if my Discover Channel science education is correct Bonobos (Pan paniscus) are actually pretty calm little hippie chimps. No rape, murder or war. Those are the Common Chimps (Pan troglodytes),

All animals are capable of rape and murder. Camels have been known to rape. Again, given the choice between a day with CoMA and a camel, I'll choose the camel. Probably less spitting and grunting that way.


And with that I'm done derailing this thread. Sorry to those involved.