opnet [OpNet] Charr I am dead serious.

[Hugin]

Allowed? No one has ever told me that I could not.

Troll says above reproach. I say he's mincing words. I am a publically admited follower of Teras. I support many aspects of the Terat movement. I believe what Charr did was ill conceived, not in the best interests of our people and I wish he had not done it. So, is that enough to satisfy Troll's request for a Terat to speak out against Charr? Or will he ask for more?

[Metropolis]

I am also a self admited follower of the Teras and one monstrous muthafucka who has walked his path without ever looking about. I don't know you Totem and I do not know what your deal is, but it does seem like you do alot of big show drama about what you are and what you are becoming. Be true to yourself, that is all that can be said.

Your fears about everything need to be confronted. I say get yourself a freaky monster ho and get your freak on all doggie style, with the biting and shit. You will be awright. Maybe we can team up and give it some skin all double feline style. yo. Then go out and just unleash and never look back.

[Wakinyan]

I do tend to be a drama queen I guess. When I drop in on Tokyo you'll know it. I am sure their will be a lot of screaming. Just look me up and we can hang out. As for the freaky ho... We will just have to see.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
No. Someone was going to be first. That person was Charr, and now there will be others. You planted the seed, after a time it was going to sprout thorns. The only question was what you were going to do about it. Personally I suggest cutting the thorns off or getting others to do it for you.

You're missing my point. Ashnod -> Charr works by the theory you're presenting. The odds of any philosophy creating an extremist offshoot are roughly the same regardless of the numbers of non-extreme followers it also creates. Using this model, it could have easily gone from Ashnod -> Charr from the get go, rather than Ashnod -> Prodigy -> Charr.

Also you're assuming that my philosophy is the one that led to Charr's actions. It could have been any Terat, not necessarily me. It could have been Geryon. It could have been Apep. It could have been Mal and the Null Manifesto. You don't know where the beginning of this "process" actually rests.

My philosophy does not advocate "do what thou wilt." That's the Null Manifesto speaking. Once again, the Manifesto is not a law, nor a binding agreement. If you're working off the model that the Teragen itself is the "planter," to use your seed metaphor, are you referring only to this passage from the Manifesto?


If only that were true. Now that Charr has made a name for himself, others will do the same. One way or another, Charr has made an example of himself.

So has Geryon. Lash. Apep. Epoch. Rattler. Feathered Serpent. Gauze. Leviathan. Penetrator. Matador. Countless other Terats. What sets Charr apart from them?

Given his prior actions, Dr. Smith, do you really think this was a simple massacre? If there was a brilliant political target or motivation that had yet to surface, would this change how you are pursing this? After all, I can't recall you being this up in arms about any other Terat activity.

Going back to the process discussion, we're moving into areas where the process forks. Use the Null Manifesto as your start point. You might say:

Null Manifesto -> Raoul Orzaiz

You might also say:

Null Manifesto -> Charr.

But does the process work if you use:

Null Manifesto -> Orzaiz -> Charr?

Only if you force it conform to your end result. The Manifesto is open to interpretation from the get go, which is why you see the Teragen acting from so many seemingly contradictory stances. More on this later.

And does the Teragen support them? I suspect not. Because Charr claims he follows teras, ANYTHING he does is above reproach with his peers. Not even Totentanz can claim that.

Again, you keep insisting there is a system in place for "dealing" with anything. Claim to Teras does not guarantee you safe-passage any more than claim to the Zurich Accord guarantees you animosity.

You seem to expect that with the acceptance that novas are not human, some organization and structure will automatically fall into place. That with Mal proclaiming "until a governing body of novas..." all those hearing his words would be rushing to establish such a thing.

You also seem to insist that those who accept that novas are not human should feel some responsibility to police others like them and that it was irresponsible of those who first spoke (or those who currently speak loudly) of these ideas to do so without first establishing a mechanism for "dealing" with those who act in ways the human establishment find distaste with.

For any of that to happen, mind you, someone would have to seize power and enforce their will upon the rest, whether it be a group or a single individual. You'd then run into the problems of enforcing your will upon beings who are not limited by geography or speed of travel, or whom very likely you are unable to threaten in any appreciable fashion.

This is new to everyone, Dr. Smith. The conventional rules of forming a government do not necessarily apply here.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

James 'Prodigy' Meehan: Allowed? No one has ever told me that I could not.

Troll says above reproach. I say he's mincing words. I am a publically admited follower of Teras. I support many aspects of the Terat movement. I believe what Charr did was ill conceived, not in the best interests of our people and I wish he had not done it. So, is that enough to satisfy Troll's request for a Terat to speak out against Charr? Or will he ask for more?

So far you haven't actually spoken out against Charr, only his actions. Do you still consider him to be a fellow terat? Brothers under the skin and all that?

I don't expect you to hunt him down. What I would like is something more to the speed of "Charr, you have disgraced the movement, you are out of the club" ..or.. "I don't consider him to be a Terat anymore, I won't offer him aid, support, and I might even drop a dime on him if I feel like it."

Ashnod: Also you're assuming that my philosophy is the one that led to Charr's actions. It could have been any Terat, not necessarily me. It could have been Geryon. It could have been Apep. It could have been Mal and the Null Manifesto.

You can indeed point a finger at those others and claim they had a roll in this, but so did you.

Ashnod: My philosophy does not advocate "do what thou wilt." That's the Null Manifesto speaking.

Interesting. Are you saying the Null Manifesto is wrong on that point?

Ashnod: Given his prior actions, Dr. Smith, do you really think this was a simple massacre?

Again with the "there must have been something more to this because... Charr is such a nice guy, and he would never kill baselines just to show that he can kill baselines or to annoy Preston?". I've never met the guy, so if you feel that's true then just say so. His by-line, past deeds, etc tend to not support that line of reasoning.

What do you think? And are you willing to extend that same confidence to O.J. and Saxon?

Ashnod: If there was a brilliant political target or motivation that had yet to surface, would this change how you are pursing this? After all, I can't recall you being this up in arms about any other Terat activity.

Maybe. Maybe not. This conversation should take place regardless of what he did. Notice please that I'm NOT calling for his head. I'm calling for responsibility. Less his than the rest of you.

Troll: And does the Teragen support them? I suspect not. Because Charr claims he follows teras, ANYTHING he does is above reproach with his peers. Not even Totentanz can claim that.

Ashnod: Again, you keep insisting there is a system in place for "dealing" with anything. Claim to Teras does not guarantee you safe-passage any more than claim to the Zurich Accord guarantees you animosity.

So in other words, YES? Because Charr claims he follows teras, ANYTHING he does is above reproach with the teragen? He could eat babies and not only would none of you lift a finger against him, but none of you would even claim he's wrong? And I don't mean "wrong" as in "evil" or "an action not serving nova-kind". I mean "wrong" as in "this is incompatable with teras". Please tell me I'm wrong about that.

You keep turning the conversation to "system's for dealing with him" and claiming they don't exist. So how about this, why not just kick him out of the club? And yes, I know you don't speak for all terats. But you do speak for yourself. Can you say that in your opinion, he isn't a terat anymore? Or even, "assuming he did do it just for the hell of it, you can't be a member of the Teragen and pull that kind of stuff".

Ashnod: You also seem to insist that those who accept that novas are not human should feel some responsibility to police others like them and that it was irresponsible of those who first spoke (or those who currently speak loudly) of these ideas to do so without first establishing a mechanism for "dealing" with those who act in ways the human establishment find distaste with.

I'm more interested getting the Teragen to stop preventing the policing of members who seem to be acting against everyone's interests. As I understand it, Charr stands out in a crowd. I get the feeling he is in a Teragen safe house somewhere.

Ashnod: For any of that to happen, mind you, someone would have to seize power and enforce their will upon the rest...

Bull. There are other ways for a group to enforce it's will on member's who break the group's rules. The simplest is to just toss the offender out of the group. Ostrification(sp). Yet another way is to drop a dime on him.

Ashnod: This is new to everyone, Dr. Smith. The conventional rules of forming a government do not necessarily apply here.

What do you suggest? That because 'the conventional rules' might not apply, we shouldn't try? If we apply that logic to existing society then because every murder isn't prevented or punished that means none of them should be. Law and law enforcement doesn't have to be "perfect" in order to be a good thing in general.

As near as I can tell, the Teragen isn't a group of individuals who all act individually. It appears to be more like a collection of clicks or gangs.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
You can indeed point a finger at those others and claim they had a roll in this, but so did you.

Weak. By that reasoning, I could say that you were just as much of an influence, if not more of one, on Charr.

You can point the finger at me all you wish, but I have no guilty conscience over this nor do I believe Charr takes anything I say seriously.

Interesting. Are you saying the Null Manifesto is wrong on that point?

I believe that "do what thou wilt" is not the message of the Manifesto. I think that "it is the duty of every homo sapiens novus to govern himself or herself as he or she sees fit" passage has been bastardized and made to blame for everything that you people see wrong with our movement.

I believe that no one inside the Teragen truly believes their actions have no consequences, that Mal was telling them to do as they please. I think that every time some fingers this passage as the keystone of why the Teragen is "wrong," that they are overlooking the overall context.

The passage is not saying you are free to do what you want. It is saying that baseline law and code do not apply to our species. It is saying that while free of the tethers of the laws we once knew, we are still expected to act responsibly on our own accord until such time as a Nova government is established.

Notice: Mal did not say "We are free to act as we please." He said "it is the duty...to govern."

I agree whole-heartedly with this, Dr. Smith. As a very crude analogy, I might cite that the Declaration of Independence was made public before the United States Constitution was written.

What, exactly, did you expect from this type of movement? That a tiny handful of us, 6 or 7 perhaps, would write up a code of behavior for the entire species and slowly hope that others would adopt it? Or state that if you agree that the Null Manifesto speaks truth, that you agree to follow the codes that we have established in place of the laws you once followed?

What do you do with the Novas who agree with the Manifesto but disagree with your code? Force them to submit? Tell them to go back to baseline society? What if you have more than one group? Say, six or seven, each with their own views on how things should be done.

Again with the "there must have been something more to this because... Charr is such a nice guy, and he would never kill baselines just to show that he can kill baselines or to annoy Preston?". I've never met the guy, so if you feel that's true then just say so. His by-line, past deeds, etc tend to not support that line of reasoning.

Nova Vigilance does not act without reason, Dr. Smith. Neither does Charr. I am saying that I don't believe that this was a simple "let's kill people and show the world how wrong they are" action.

Maybe. Maybe not. This conversation should take place regardless of what he did. Notice please that I'm NOT calling for his head. I'm calling for responsibility. Less his than the rest of you.

What responsibility? To what? An idea? An agenda? Whose idea? Whose agenda? Where is this responsibility coming from?

I did not create Charr, Dr. Smith. You can blame me if you wish, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. My philosophy, if you've ever bothered to pay attention to it, warns against baseline/Nova violence and states that acts of violence against each other are inevitable until separation/education/integration can take place.

As you can no doubt guess, it's not the most popular among Nova Vigilance.

So in other words, YES? Because Charr claims he follows teras, ANYTHING he does is above reproach with the teragen? He could eat babies and not only would none of you lift a finger against him, but none of you would even claim he's wrong? And I don't mean "wrong" as in "evil" or "an action not serving nova-kind". I mean "wrong" as in "this is incompatable with teras". Please tell me I'm wrong about that.

Again, with this "above" reproach. We have no laws or guidelines for interacting with the baseline world. Exactly what is he "above?"

Morality and ethics, Dr. Smith, are social constructs. They are not, despite what all of you God-fearing monkeys here believe, universal or holy constants. Every single one of you need to understand and accept that right now.

HUMANITY made baseline's ethics. This developed over several centuries of war and fighting and acts of violence so horrifying that they have to forget about them lest they be disgusted by what they are, all the while shouting from the mountaintops that they are better than what came before them and should strive to be better still, all the while repeating the mistakes of the past. History does not recount the founding of the earliest civilizations in their truest, bloodiest, glory.

NOVAKIND will create the ethics and morality for the erupted. Is eating human flesh against Teras? Why should it be? Because humans tell us this? You are telling us this because you adhere to baseline ethics. Is it wrong?

The Teragen can't answer this question, Dr. Smith, and you can shout and scream and yell "this must be stopped!" all you wish, but that is the truth.

Perhaps Novakind, once separate from baseline humanity, will have ethics similar to what you currently cling to. Perhaps it will not. Either way, you are judging us by standards that we do not recognize and quite honestly we feel no need to cow tow to your self-righteous demands as we discover where our potential takes us.

If that is a "yes" to your black & white question, so be it.

You keep turning the conversation to "system's for dealing with him" and claiming they don't exist. So how about this, why not just kick him out of the club? And yes, I know you don't speak for all terats. But you do speak for yourself. Can you say that in your opinion, he isn't a terat anymore? Or even, "assuming he did do it just for the hell of it, you can't be a member of theTeragen and pull that kind of stuff".

Kick him out? Let's see. Ashnod says, "Charr, you're out." Eighty-five more people say "whatever, you're still in." Work the mathematics anyway you want. He said/she said only goes so far. No formal organization, no power, no hierarchy, means no ejecting of members. You'd have to do something pretty heinous to alienate your fellow Terats, and as much as this disgusts you Dr. Smith, this won't do it.

You're expecting us, again, to behave in a manner similar to what you would. Why should we kick him out? What has he done wrong, in a society where right and wrong have yet to be determined? Morality is a social construct, remember.

I'm more interested getting the Teragen to stop preventing the policing of members who seem to be acting against everyone's interests. As I understand it, Charr stands out in a crowd. I get the feeling he is in a Teragen safe house somewhere.

Land covers a fraction of the earth's surface. Water covers the rest. Charr is a lobstrosity. Do the math, you imbecile. Do you really think he's limited to safe houses?

For the other half of your paragraph, Charr actions are opposed by some. Not all. Back to square one. No formal organization, no common vision, no way to remove someone.

Bull. There are other ways for a group to enforce it's will on member's who break the group's rules. The simplest is to just toss the offender out of the group. Ostrification(sp). Yet another way is to drop a dime on him.

Key words: group & will. Group implies organization and unity, or common vision at the very least. Will implies power. We've covered this already.

What do you suggest? That because 'the conventional rules' might not apply, we shouldn't try? If we apply that logic to existing society then because every murder isn't prevented or punished that means none of them should be. Law and law enforcement doesn't have to be "perfect" in order to be a good thing in general.

As near as I can tell, the Teragen isn't a group of individuals who all act individually. It appears to be more like a collection of clicks or gangs.

It is the nature of individuals to form groups of like-minded individuals. I suggest you take your case to Nova Vigilance, which is the closest thing to a "group" that could enforce its "will" upon Charr. I am certain Geryon would be most eager to listen to how he should kick Charr out because you, and certain Terats whose opinions are of UTMOST importance to him, found his acts distasteful.

[Ulysses Bailey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
What, exactly, did you expect from this type of movement? That a tiny handful of us, 6 or 7 perhaps, would write up a code of behavior for the entire species and slowly hope that others would adopt it? Or state that if you agree that the Null Manifesto speaks truth, that you agree to follow the codes that we have established in place of the laws you once followed?

Pardon me for intruding and paraphrasing, but I would like to know: do you believe in basic rules of conduct for novas?

It appears many people here labor under the misunderstanding that you don't believe in rules of conduct of novas, despite anything you may have posted in the past. While my own request for specification is rather selfish, it could serve as an excellent way of showing everyone else that you and those like you aren't some kind of neo-anarchists.

[Preston]

Mr. Bailey, why would it matter if she had a stated belief in a basic rules of conduct. They would only apply to her, unless she wanted to violate the self-governance of other novas, right?

HUMANITY made baseline's ethics. This developed over several centuries of war and fighting and acts of violence so horrifying that they have to forget about them lest they be disgusted by what they are, all the while shouting from the mountaintops that they are better than what came before them and should strive to be better still, all the while repeating the mistakes of the past. History does not recount the founding of the earliest civilizations in their truest, bloodiest, glory.

NOVAKIND will create the ethics and morality for the erupted. Is eating human flesh against Teras? Why should it be? Because humans tell us this? You are telling us this because you adhere to baseline ethics. Is it wrong?

Thank you for that, Ashnod.

I would point out that while you readily acknowledge mankind at its worst, you ignore them at their best. You would toss out the whole lesson because not every event is benefical?

Now, we get to make the same dumb mistakes all over again. How splendid.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:


So far you haven't actually spoken out against Charr, only his actions. Do you still consider him to be a fellow terat? Brothers under the skin and all that?

I don't expect you to hunt him down. What I would like is something more to the speed of "Charr, you have disgraced the movement, you are out of the club" ..or.. "I don't consider him to be a Terat anymore, I won't offer him aid, support, and I might even drop a dime on him if I feel like it."

Well thank you for finally having the decency to actually define what you mean by speaking out. You're a bald-faced liar when you say 'speak'. You mean act. You want me to shun him, you want me to use whatever influence I have to deprive him of support. You want me to exile him from the community. Let me explain something, to many in the Teragen the only prerequisite for 'membership' is belief. If Charr espouses belief in Teras he is a member. Nothing I can do about that.

Now, can we get something straight here Troll? I am a scientist. A student. An oberver of the social conditions that surround us. I do not have the power or influence to affect Charr. At the very most I trade my skills for transportation or work at New Ground. Since, as far as I know, Charr is neither a spatial manipulator or a carpenter he and I will likely do no business. So, my condeming his actions is all your going to get Troll. Stop whining for more.

[Ulysses Bailey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Preston:
Mr. Bailey, why would it matter if she had a stated belief in a basic rules of conduct. They would only apply to her, unless she wanted to violate the self-governance of other novas, right?

The Null Manifesto speaks of the eventual need for an all nova government and this is the first time I've heard a Terat mention some kind of code, albeit a personal code. Societies, governments, and laws come from somewhere, Captain Preston, I'm interested to see what she has.

[Ashnod]

Taking my words out of context, again, Mr. Preston? It is refreshing to see that some things never change. Do not attribute things to me that I have not stated. I am fully capable of, and readily do, recognize the positive aspects of baseline humanity. Just because I make no mention of it here does not mean I ignore them.

Mr. Bailey,

Do I believe in a basic code of conduct for Novas? Not at present. I adhere to my own code of conduct for the time being.

Do I believe there should be one for a nova society? Yes. Do I believe that Novas should form a governing body to enforce that code? Yes.

[Ulysses Bailey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Mr. Bailey,

Do I believe in a basic code of conduct for Novas? Not at present. I adhere to my own code of conduct for the time being.

Do I believe there should be one for a nova society? Yes. Do I believe that Novas should form a governing body to enforce that code? Yes.

Actually, I was asking for you to share your own code if you didn't mind. We all have our ethics and mores, but I haven't heard those of a Terat and I'm interested to learn.

If we need a governing body for novas, when do you think we should (to use an analogy of yours from above) form our Continental Congress and with whom? Or have you already begun?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: Nova Vigilance does not act without reason, Dr. Smith. Neither does Charr. I am saying that I don't believe that this was a simple "let's kill people and show the world how wrong they are" action.

Correct. He most likely killed to protect soma dealers. This explains the first death, all the others might have been to confuse the issue, or they might have been "collateral damage", or they might have been (as he claimed) just amusing.

Troll: Interesting. Are you saying the Null Manifesto is wrong on that point?

Ashnod: I believe that "do what thou wilt" is not the message of the Manifesto. I think that "it is the duty of every homo sapiens novus to govern himself or herself as he or she sees fit" passage has been bastardized and made to blame for everything that you people see wrong with our movement.

True. "Do what thou wilt" seems to be the effect.

Ashnod: I believe that no one inside the Teragen truly believes their actions have no consequences, that Mal was telling them to do as they please. I think that every time some fingers this passage as the keystone of why the Teragen is "wrong," that they are overlooking the overall context.

The passage is not saying you are free to do what you want. It is saying that baseline law and code do not apply to our species. It is saying that while free of the tethers of the laws we once knew, we are still expected to act responsibly on our own accord until such time as a Nova government is established.

Some of the rest of your post goes into why you don't want to (or can't) form a government.

Ashnod: "...did you expect ... write up a code of behavior for the entire species...?"

In addition, when I said that I was "...calling for responsibility. Less his than the rest of you..."

You said Ashnod: What responsibility? To what? An idea? An agenda? Whose idea? Whose agenda? Where is this responsibility coming from?

To quote you, "we are still expected to act responsibly...".

The rhetorical question becomes, what do we the nova community do about people who don't "act responsibly"? What do we do about novas who "do what thou wilt"? What do we do about novas who traffic in soma?

Why is the Manifesto's idea of a nova government so horrible? Because it ends "do what thou wilt?"

Ashnod: I agree whole-heartedly with this, Dr. Smith. As a very crude analogy, I might cite that the Declaration of Independence was made public before the United States Constitution was written.

What, exactly, did you expect from this type of movement? That a tiny handful of us, 6 or 7 perhaps, would write up a code of behavior for the entire species and slowly hope that others would adopt it? Or state that if you agree that the Null Manifesto speaks truth, that you agree to follow the codes that we have established in place of the laws you once followed?

How many baselines wrote the United States Constitution? Are you really saying 6 or 7 novas aren't able to equal the accomplishments of a dozen or two baselines?

Ashnod: What do you do with the Novas who agree with the Manifesto but disagree with your code? Force them to submit? Tell them to go back to baseline society? What if you have more than one group? Say, six or seven, each with their own views on how things should be done.

Don't you think this is going to happen at some point? Maybe more to the point, I would say that the Teragen already has six or seven groups with their own views. I would expect that a nova government would evolve as a normal one would.

I'll say it again, why is the Manifesto's idea of a nova government so horrible? Because it ends "do what thou wilt?"

[Y.T.]

Wet noise. Troll, I am sure you know the term,and it's use. But for those that don't know it. Wet Noise is the idea that if I have target that I want to kill, and yet do not wish people to think I was aiming for that target.Well, this where wet noise comes in. If I kill enough people or people who are more public along with my target, my motive would be hidden in the death tolls. Say if I wanted to kill a drug dealer, snitch or a civil servant, I simply bomb the club they are in. The target of my wrath would be lost in the wet noise.

A small note the more prominent your target is,the more wet noise you have to make to cover your goals. This is often done by killing your target along with a higher up.

[Uhuru Kenyatta]

But that didn't happen. Charr very clearly went after that guy first, and left witnesses to testify to this. So either his target was another of the people he killed, or else there was another reason for the killings. Until we hear from Charr about this, idle speculation on why he killed the other people is just that.

[Ashnod]

Dr. Smith,

Correct. He most likely killed to protect soma dealers.

You are being so deliberately obtuse at this moment that one is forced to consider the possibility that not only do you not believe that statement has any factual merit whatsoever, but you are purposely attempting to twist the situation to your benefit. If you truly believe that situation to be factual, then I cannot see any reason to continue any discourse with you on any subject.

How many baselines wrote the United States Constitution?

Missing the point. The drafters of that document did so with the support of their nation. As of yet, the nova nation does not have that solidarity.

I'll say it again, why is the Manifesto's idea of a nova government so horrible? Because it ends "do what thou wilt?"

Missing the point again. The idea is far from horrible. A government simply cannot be formed without the support of its people. So long as the majority of the species permit itself to serve another, or to enslave themselves, this government will not happen.

I'm getting tired of this argument, Dr. Smith. The Teragen is not anything more than a movement. It is not a nation and it is barely an organization. It will not have a government because it is nothing more than a collection of individuals whose eventual goals overlap.

The Manifesto calls for a NOVA government to govern the NOVA people. Twisting its words into insinuating the Teragen betrays the Manifesto's ideals by remaining in its current incarnation, or that the Teragen must take up the responsibility of governing those who have foresaken the protection of baseline government, is a transparent ploy at best and one that is getting very weary.

The rhetorical question becomes, what do we the nova community do about people who don't "act responsibly"? What do we do about novas who "do what thou wilt"? What do we do about novas who traffic in soma?

You are not part of the nova community. You live in a baseline world with baseline peers under baseline law protected by baseline government. Not only do you have no business criticizing what those forging new paths outside of your safe little womb are attempting, any suggestions you might have becoming meaningless when your current circumstances are considered.

Your answer to this to, joining Project Utopia and conceding all responsibility and power to a baseline authority, is more of a betrayal of the Null Manifesto than anything the Teragen is currently doing. All of your prancing and finger waving at we should be doing and what you think we are doing incorrectly is insignificant in the face that you have abdicated all responsibility to another species.

If you want to help determine and shape where the Teragen is going, and if you want to help create a Nova community and eventually, a Nova government, let go of your umbilical cord and come with us.

Just remember, historically, the founding members of a new nation were called terrorists, insurgents, rebels, and revolutionaries in the time of their struggle by the current ruling power. Change does not come without a price.

[Preston]

Taking my words out of context, again, Mr. Preston? It is refreshing to see that some things never change. Do not attribute things to me that I have not stated. I am fully capable of, and readily do, recognize the positive aspects of baseline humanity. Just because I make no mention of it here does not mean I ignore them.

[Ashnod]

Preston,

What if we don't want to be governed by you?

What if we want to share this world with mankind?

1) Who said anything about me governing, or the Teragen governing? I've already stated this: even if we sought to rule, we would be unsupported and thus we cannot govern.

2) There is nothing wrong with sharing the world with mankind. There is everything wrong with allowing them to determine what is right and wrong for our people while doing so, which currently, we've unquestioningly given them the power to do.

Why do you get to say how is and is not in the nova community? Why do you get to say his contributions are worthless to the lives of novas the world round? He is a nova. He simply does not agree with you.

3) I get to say who is not in the nova community because he isn't living in one, Preston, and I am. He lives in a baseline community under their laws and their ideals. That is his choice. I am not referring to some effuse idea of "We are all one nation linked by genetics," because that manner of wishful thinking doesn't hold water when you consider that there are novas living outside the baseline nation deliberately and those who deliberately (and those yet to really decide in a meaningful fashion) live within it.

4) Never said that. I said he didn't live in a nova community. Not the same thing.

5) Yes, he is, and yes, he does. Never said otherwise.

Or, it could be said that he lives in a world were he interacts with baselines with respect for them and their institutions.

6) Certainly, he lives in that world. And if he, accepting and understanding that we are not human and that we are a species whom deserves the right to be ungoverned by human authority, wants to submit himself to them and their institutions, that is his choice. If this is the case, there is nothing wrong with that choice. But he also forfeits his right to criticize those of us who are trying to build something outside it.

If he's living with them because he thinks he is one of them, that's another conundrum, and the one I believe that this thread is mostly addressing.

Here again, you are deciding that his contributions to the destiny of novas are meaningless, and that his suggestions are without merit. For that matter, who else is going to critize you and your terat collegues?

7) His scientific contributions are not unworthy. Did not say that. Stop speaking for me, Preston. You are beginning to anger me with this habit.

8) He has no ground to speak on. He's never lived outside baseline society, never tried to be part of crafting the first civilization for a newly evolved species. He has chosen to remain within the confines of the "safe" world where everything is already established, rather than live with us in the "unstable" one where we are forging new ground. Why should he have the right, and what possible suggestions could he offer that have the weight of experience worth listening to? I believe the appropriate derision here is "Armchair quarterback."

9) I expect other Terats to criticize our movement. I expect any other Nova who tries to do what we're doing to criticize us. If they are doing it better than us, or have found ways to succeed where we have not, I would hope they would try to enlighten us to our faults. Dr. Smith is not in this position.

What? He sold his soul? I don't think so. Does it really boggle your mind so that some novas chose to build relationships with mankind and contribute to a joint society? For that matter, have you abrogated your right and ability to relate to novas who do chose to live among humans?

10) The fallacy with your statement is joint society. It is not currently a joint society. It is a baseline one. Do you not fool yourself into thinking otherwise. As things currently stand, he is living and working FOR them, not with them. Until we are recognized as a separate species, Preston, there is no joint society.

What you're hinting at is something V was espousing: living beside humanity. Working hand in hand with them, instead of for them. This is both a subtle and an obvious difference that you should be able to recognize.

That may be the root of your problem. You see only a shackle, were I see a bridge of understanding, cooperation, and hope. I see a difficult path, fraught with peril, but with magnificent rewards for both people.

I have asked this question before, and I will do it again. What "baseline ties" did you give up when you became a terat?

11) Understanding? You who gave an interview that contradicted the Zurich Accord? You're living in and working for a society which tells you that you are not something you know yourself to be. Once baseline humanity rescinds the Zurich Accord, you can bring this point back up.

12) Still clinging to the idea that something "Drove me" to the Teragen? That some trigger event can divide my life from happy BaABaA nova into inhuman Terat, something which caused me to "loose faith" in them?

And, actual terrorists, murders. and thieves have called themselves freedom fighters, as well. Saying it does not make it true.

13) Nor does it make it untrue. History is traditionally written from the perspective of the winner.

Stupid and/or selfish ideas also have a price tag, Ashnod. Not every social experiment is worth it, justified, or even needed.

You consider being another species to be a "social experiment?" Interesting.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Troll: Correct. He most likely killed to protect soma dealers.

Ashnod: You are being so deliberately obtuse at this moment that one is forced to consider the possibility that not only do you not believe that statement has any factual merit whatsoever, but you are purposely attempting to twist the situation to your benefit. If you truly believe that situation to be factual, then I cannot see any reason to continue any discourse with you on any subject.

*I'm* being obtuse? I'm a nova doctor working with a nova organization that tends to get called in on this type of crap. Nova addiction, nova created drugs, baselines using nova drugs; this is all leading edge R&D stuff, and I eat lunch with some of leading experts on all of this.

So let's talk about soma for a moment. Your regular users of soma are novas, because baselines tend to die from using it. But if they don't drop dead they experience an unreal high, and are addicted. With the more self destructive drugs (PCP comes to mind) a generation of hard core users will try it, get hooked on it, be destroyed by it, and use will go down. But in this case there is a set of nova users that serve as a 'core', and can keep introducing baselines to it. They leave a trail.

If you want to see who is using soma, check out the morgues. Btw this is where my collegues get called, soma is rare enough that most MEs haven't seen it. I don't think I can mention names without getting sued, but let's just say the Teragen party circuit seems to have a lot of "friends" who go down in flames.

Admittedly NV is known for their violence, and not for drug use (or porn) but terats do favors for each other, correct? A soma snitch ends up dead conveniently ending an investigation threatening other dealers, said other dealers don't end up dead... connecting the dots isn't very hard.

Troll: How many baselines wrote the United States Constitution?

Ashnod: Missing the point. The drafters of that document did so with the support of their nation. As of yet, the nova nation does not have that solidarity.

Granted I wasn't there and this is outside my field, but my impression is at the time of the Declaration of Independence about a third of the people wanted independence, a third wanted to stay with Britain, and a third didn't care.

Troll: Why is the Manifesto's idea of a nova government so horrible? Because it ends "do what thou wilt?"

Ashnod: Missing the point again. The idea is far from horrible. A government simply cannot be formed without the support of its people. So long as the majority of the species permit itself to serve another, or to enslave themselves, this government will not happen.

So we can only have a government after we all become terats? It isn't the idea of a government you mind, its the idea that people like me might take part in it? Modern governments are supposed to allow people with irreconcilable views to live peacefully. To give them a way other than violence to settle their differences. If you limit a government to only those who agree with you then you only have that dictatorship you are so against.

Ashnod: You are not part of the nova community. You live in a baseline world with baseline peers under baseline law protected by baseline government. Not only do you have no business criticizing what those forging new paths outside of your safe little womb are attempting, any suggestions you might have becoming meaningless when your current circumstances are considered.

So I can't contribute until I think like you do? I can't think or speak until I boldly and independantly proclaim that Mal was right in all things? Aren't terats supposed to think for themselves?

Ashnod: Your answer to this to, joining Project Utopia and conceding all responsibility and power to a baseline authority, is more of a betrayal of the Null Manifesto than anything the Teragen is currently doing. All of your prancing and finger waving at we should be doing and what you think we are doing incorrectly is insignificant in the face that you have abdicated all responsibility to another species.

The pot can indeed call the kettle black. Saying you don't like me or my lifestyle isn't relevent. If you want to claim that I've killed children or that I have a temper, I'd be forced to agree. I don't like it, but it's the truth. I can't disagree by saying "you are a terat so anything you say is meaningless". I'm willing to face my problems, can you say the same?

Judging from the evidence, I'd say there are Terats (and terat clicks) who are into soma and it's trade up to their eyeballs.

This is the point where you ignore me, say I'm not a terat so I don't get to have an opinion, or (better still) agree and explain how dealing soma is in line with following the manifesto.

Ashnod: If you want to help determine and shape where the Teragen is going, and if you want to help create a Nova community and eventually, a Nova government, let go of your umbilical cord and come with us.

After cutting the umbilical cord there comes a time to grow up. A time when you have to do more than point at something and yell "MINE". A time when you have to learn to share, to play with others, and to not hit them when you don't get your way.

[Ashnod]

Dr. Smith......

How many baselines wrote the United States Constitution?...Granted I wasn't there and this is outside my field, but my impression is at the time of the Declaration of Independence about a third of the people wanted independence, a third wanted to stay with Britain, and a third didn't care.

You'll notice how my statement references the drafting of the Constitution, and not the Declaration of Independence? The Null Manifesto, in this comparison, is the Declaration and it is already out, and caused the equivalent amount of controversy.

So we can only have a government after we all become terats? It isn't the idea of a government you mind, its the idea that people like me might take part in it? Modern governments are supposed to allow people with irreconcilable views to live peacefully. To give them a way other than violence to settle their differences. If you limit a government to only those who agree with you then you only have that dictatorship you are so against.

Dr. Smith, I'm beginning to get very, very weary of people putting words into my mouth.

A Nova government isn't dependant upon everyone involved being Terat. It is, however, dependant upon Novas wishing Novas to govern them and not baselines. My paragraph was quite clear on the matter, so do not infer some desire from me to see the Teragen in power at the expense of everything else.

,,

So I can't contribute until I think like you do? I can't think or speak until I boldly and independantly proclaim that Mal was right in all things? Aren't terats supposed to think for themselves?

No, you cannot contribute to what those living outside of a baseline community are doing. Does this surprise you? Why should we take anything you say seriously when you have no experience in it and have chosen to let another species govern you?

It is not about proclaiming Mal right. It never has been. Even Violette understands this much of the equation, and she doesn't endorse the Null Manifesto.

Judging from the evidence, I'd say there are Terats (and terat clicks) who are into soma and it's trade up to their eyeballs.

You poor, deluded fool. You continue to think like a baseline. Tell me, has it never even occurred to you that a species capable of forcing reality to conform to its wishes would also be capable of creating soma without killing a nova to do so? Or are you so determined to save face here that you ignore possibilities outside the scope of what you have been told?

Even then, if you will bother to re-read the Null Manifesto, you will notice how it does not address anything regarding behavior towards other novas, crimes towards other novas, or responsibility to stop crimes of novas on other novas. It is not a document of law or a contract of behavior. It is a call to stop having another species govern you.

You, and others like you, are trying to push me into a corner where you would force to me admit that because the Teragen does not govern itself to your liking or currently in the process of creating a government for all Novas, that is betraying the spirit of the Manifesto. Sorry, as this is not the case, it will not happen.

After cutting the umbilical cord there comes a time to grow up. A time when you have to do more than point at something and yell "MINE". A time when you have to learn to share, to play with others, and to not hit them when you don't get your way.

Oh, how transparent of you. Yet another way of trying to say "you can't do what thou wilt like children, you have to grow up and be adults! The Null Manifesto has turned you all into anarchistic children!"

Straight from the mouth of a child still living under the roof of his parents.

[Preston]

First off, let me thank you for responding.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

1) Who said anything about me governing, or the Teragen governing? I've already stated this: even if we sought to rule, we would be unsupported and thus we cannot govern.

Okay. Glad to hear it. ,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

2) There is nothing wrong with sharing the world with mankind. There is everything wrong with allowing them to determine what is right and wrong for our people while doing so, which currently, we've unquestioningly given them the power to do.

Excuse me, but I do question the laws and customs I live by. I chose to operate under a system that is acceptable to both parties. In fact, it is a powerful expression of my free will to chose to accept humanities authority over me. As difficult as it may be for you to understand or accept, I do know what I am doing.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

3) I get to say who is not in the nova community because he isn't living in one, Preston, and I am. He lives in a baseline community under their laws and their ideals. That is his choice. I am not referring to some effuse idea of "We are all one nation linked by genetics," because that manner of wishful thinking doesn't hold water when you consider that there are novas living outside the baseline nation deliberately and those who deliberately (and those yet to really decide in a meaningful fashion) live within it.

I would like a clarification on this. You are saying that Doctor Smith's decision to accept Project Utopia's authority in his life has diminished him somehow? It is a company, after all, and he can quit if he desires.

As I understand it, he joined Project Utopia of his own free will, for his own personal reasons.

Also, how does this work with elites? Does it matter if they work for another nova, or a baseline?

DeVries and Argus International being two strong representations of nova-run business employing novas. Are those novas also incapable of contributing to a nova society and government?

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

4) Never said that. I said he didn't live in a nova community. Not the same thing.

What nova societ? For that matter, is your definition of a nova society the only one that matters?

I work with three other novas on a continuous basis. They are my family, for all intents and purposes. Would our unique nova to nova relationships count as a nova society?

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

5) Yes, he is, and yes, he does. Never said otherwise.

Okay. Glad to see we can agree on something.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

6) Certainly, he lives in that world. And if he, accepting and understanding that we are not human and that we are a species whom deserves the right to be ungoverned by human authority, wants to submit himself to them and their institutions, that is his choice. If this is the case, there is nothing wrong with that choice. But he also forfeits his right to criticize those of us who are trying to build something outside it.

If he's living with them because he thinks he is one of them, that's another conundrum, and the one I believe that this thread is mostly addressing.

the right to be ungoverned by human authority

Were does that come from? This inherent right to be ungoverned.

he also forfeits his right to criticize those of us who are trying to build something outside it

Same here. Why is he forfeiting his rights here? I certainly don't see it that way. Likewise, I don't see your lifestyle as one that forfeits your right to comment on his, or my, lifestyle just because you chose to live outside baseline authority, or society.

I admit that there are times when I wish you would just shut up, but that is poor citizenship on my part. You piss me off so badly, but you still deserve to be heard ... and criticized.

Doctor Smith, I leave the stick situation of your species status for you to defend.

I am a nova, not a human being. I think I have made that abundantly clear.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

7) His scientific contributions are not unworthy. Did not say that. Stop speaking for me, Preston. You are beginning to anger me with this habit.

I am still fuzzy on were his ability to contribute to novas ends. Sorry about that.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

8) He has no ground to speak on. He's never lived outside baseline society, never tried to be part of crafting the first civilization for a newly evolved species.

I would point out that no one has created a nova society, yet. You are attempting one option, while we are attempting another. We are competing theories on where novas should go.,,,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

He has chosen to remain within the confines of the "safe" world where everything is already established,

Safe? Living in any society can be very difficult. Novas have not existed in human society before this, as far as I am aware, so I don't really see our efforts as "safe".

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

rather than live with us in the "unstable" one where we are forging new ground.

There is no inherent nobility in creation, Ashnod, nor in rebelling. You are chosing to remove humanity from your equation. We are not.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

Why should he have the right,

Why shouldn't he? Why do you want to remove his right to contribute? I would point out that you are purposely excluding most novas from the debate on the creation of a nova government. How is this not an attempt by a minority to govern the majority?,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

and what possible suggestions could he offer that have the weight of experience worth listening to?

The worth of his arguments should be judged upon the presentation of those arguments.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

I believe the appropriate derision here is "Armchair quarterback."

Except, you are playing football in my backyard, Ashnod, not in some intellectual vaccum.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

9) I expect other Terats to criticize our movement.

I am waiting for that to happen. Really. In publice, even, so that I can get a better idea were the Teragen are coming from.,,,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

I expect any other Nova who tries to do what we're doing to criticize us.

But, who isn't a terat? Can you see why I feel your willingness to determine who is, or isn't, worth listening to be prejudicial.,,,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

If they are doing it better than us, or have found ways to succeed where we have not, I would hope they would try to enlighten us to our faults. Dr. Smith is not in this position.

Why isn't he in that position? He is attempting to work out an alternative way. You do not want to acknowledge that.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

10) The fallacy with your statement is joint society. It is not currently a joint society. It is a baseline one. Do you not fool yourself into thinking otherwise. As things currently stand, he is living and working FOR them, not with them. Until we are recognized as a separate species, Preston, there is no joint society.

In this, I must state my own case and not Doctor Smith's. I am an avowed nova. On my personnel and medical records I am labelled as a nova. More importantly, my fellow Bostonians refer to me as a nova. As a newsman recently discovered from an on the street interview after my statement at the medical center you visited -

"He sees through f***ing time, for God's sake."

He may not know what it is to be a nova, but he knows that I am one.

It is a joint society in my definition because I contribute to it and improve it. Boston is a different place than it was before I erupted. I would like to believe I had a hand in that.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

What you're hinting at is something V was espousing: living beside humanity. Working hand in hand with them, instead of for them. This is both a subtle and an obvious difference that you should be able to recognize.

Yes, I jumped all over Ms. D'Aroniques case and I was wrong about that. Yes, I also recognize human authority over me. I chose to. I also do not abrogate my rights to work toward a better society for all novas. I am free to do both, in my own, unique way.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

11) Understanding? You who gave an interview that contradicted the Zurich Accord? You're living in and working for a society which tells you that you are not something you know yourself to be. Once baseline humanity rescinds the Zurich Accord, you can bring this point back up.

The Zurich Accords needs to be ammended. While we should be given the rights and privledges of any other terrestrial sentiant, we should be recognized as a seperate subspecies, as science has already done. Likewise, we should be held accountable for our actions to all other sentients.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

12) Still clinging to the idea that something "Drove me" to the Teragen? That some trigger event can divide my life from happy BaABaA nova into inhuman Terat, something which caused me to "loose faith" in them?

Okay, still not answering the question.

It would help me to understand your point of view if I know what path you took to get to your current set of beliefs. As far as I know, you 'drove yourself'. I don't know, which is why I am asking.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

13) Nor does it make it untrue. History is traditionally written from the perspective of the winner.

As long as we understand that you just might be wrong in the choices you are making.,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

You consider being another species to be a "social experiment?" Interesting.

No, I consider the attempt to create a nova-only, or a nova-dominated government to be a social experiment.

[Ashnod]

Excuse me, but I do question the laws and customs I live by. I chose to operate under a system that is acceptable to both parties. In fact, it is a powerful expression of my free will to chose to accept humanities authority over me. As difficult as it may be for you to understand or accept, I do know what I am doing.

Never said on an individual level that this was not the case, Preston. Most of us have not put the degree of deliberation into this that you have. And as I said in my previous post, knowing what you do, accepting what you have, this is your choice and there is nothing wrong with it.

I would like a clarification on this. You are saying that Doctor Smith's decision to accept Project Utopia's authority in his life has diminished him somehow? It is a company, after all, and he can quit if he desires.As I understand it, he joined Project Utopia of his own free will, for his own personal reasons.Also, how does this work with elites? Does it matter if they work for another nova, or a baseline? DeVries and Argus International being two strong representations of nova-run business employing novas. Are those novas also incapable of contributing to a nova society and government?

Working for Project Utopia has nothing to do with it. Forget about Utopia, that is not the issue being addressed. As you said, Utopia is a company.

The rest of it, living in a baseline society with baseline laws, under baseline authority, is what is important.

To use one of your phrases, "I fail to see why it is so hard for you to grasp" the difference between living in a baseline society and working with one.

I would point out that no one has created a nova society, yet. You are attempting one option, while we are attempting another. We are competing theories on where novas should go.

Untrue. You are attempting to live beside humanity, like V. Troll lives as one of them. Ours is a nova society in its infancy. While they are all alternative means of living, they are not alternative methods of a "nova society" and I feel the need to clarify this.

There is no inherent nobility in creation, Ashnod, nor in rebelling. You are chosing to remove humanity from your equation. We are not.

No, Preston, you are. Please understand that you are more unique in your vision and your decision to live as you do. Most novas living similarly to you do not see things the way you do.

Why shouldn't he? Why do you want to remove his right to contribute? I would point out that you are purposely excluding most novas from the debate on the creation of a nova government. How is this not an attempt by a minority to govern the majority?

I would remove his right to contribute because he has demonstrated no desire to participate in the government itself, Preston.

My own words: A Nova government isn't dependant upon everyone involved being Terat. It is, however, dependant upon Novas wishing Novas to govern them and not baselines. If I am incorrect about what Dr. Smith desires, then I will address that then.

Why is he forfeiting his rights here? I certainly don't see it that way. Likewise, I don't see your lifestyle as one that forfeits your right to comment on his, or my, lifestyle just because you chose to live outside baseline authority, or society.

That is because we have lived in your lifestyle, Preston. We have lived there and thus have experience with it.

Except, you are playing football in my backyard, Ashnod, not in some intellectual vaccum.

Oh pardon me. I had forgotten that living as I chose to is in a vacuum. My mistake.

I am waiting for that to happen. Really. In publice, even, so that I can get a better idea were the Teragen are coming from.

Why should this happen in public? We don't require an audience for our debates.

But, who isn't a terat? Can you see why I feel your willingness to determine who is, or isn't, worth listening to be prejudicial.

No. It is a very simple distinction.

Why isn't he in that position? He is attempting to work out an alternative way. You do not want to acknowledge that.

I will acknowledge that when he acknowledges that he is not human and that Zurich Accord is incorrect. Until then, he is not doing that.

Not every social experiment is worth it, justified, or even needed....No, I consider the attempt to create a nova-only, or a nova-dominated government to be a social experiment.

By that logic, I consider Novas living unquestioningly under baseline rule to be a social experiment that should not have taken place, and not needed.

[Uhuru Kenyatta]

This argument has devolved so far into minutiae as to be nearly meaningless. My comments are an attempt to get to the heart of this discussion, please take them as such.

Preston: Novas (in this case, Dr. Troll) who considder themselves human are not contributing to post-humanist philosophy, other than being a topic of discussion.

Dr. Troll: Your bias is showing. It is blatantly obvious from your arguments that you are attacking the Teragen. Be aware that the organization you work for is far from pure, and they have the major benefit of a multi-billion dollar PR department.

Ashnod: The distinction between working for baselines and working with them is - as applied to individual situations and novakind as a whole - not a simple topic. It took me years to grasp the outer edges of it, and I'm still grappling with the implications. How long did it take V working within Project Utopia to understand that distinction?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

RE: My views on humanity.

I split that off into a different topic.

Ashnod: No, you cannot contribute to what those living outside of a baseline community are doing. Does this surprise you? Why should we take anything you say seriously when you have no experience in it and have chosen to let another species govern you?

Careful there. That sounds very close to "you can't contribute until you think/believe like I do".

Fair is fair Ashnod. You don't have any problems telling me how I should live or what I should think or what I'm doing wrong.

Troll: Judging from the evidence, I'd say there are Terats (and terat clicks) who are into soma and it's trade up to their eyeballs.

Ashnod: You poor, deluded fool. You continue to think like a baseline. Tell me, has it never even occurred to you that a species capable of forcing reality to conform to its wishes would also be capable of creating soma without killing a nova to do so? Or are you so determined to save face here that you ignore possibilities outside the scope of what you have been told?

So in other words, Yes! I'm 100% right (I'm guessing that's what you meant to say ). There are terat clicks out there who are really into soma, it's trade, and even it's production. The good news is they have a nova who doesn't need to harvest nodes. Presumably this is yet another varient on matter creation like our Eufiber fashion king. Sounds like an interesting guy.

The bad news is since terats are not only using soma but are also supplying it, motivation for killing that snitch of a soma dealer just became more obvious.

As for Saving Face, you're talking to the wrong nova for that. My powers aren't very dignified and I've had to grow a thick skin. The XWF helps with that as well.

Troll: After cutting the umbilical cord there comes a time to grow up. A time when you have to do more than point at something and yell "MINE". A time when you have to learn to share, to play with others, and to not hit them when you don't get your way.

Ashnod: Oh, how transparent of you. Yet another way of trying to say "you can't do what thou wilt like children, you have to grow up and be adults! The Null Manifesto has turned you all into anarchistic children!"

Straight from the mouth of a child still living under the roof of his parents.

Attacking me isn't a response to the statement. I've a thick skin, attack away. But that doesn't invalidate what I've said.

I was trying to be transparent and yes, it has. In other posts you have stated something to the effect of this anarchy being a transitional stage. Am I misreading you? What do you think the next stage would be?

Ashnod talking to Preston about Troll: I would remove his right to contribute because he has demonstrated no desire to participate in the government itself, Preston.

??? Where did you get that idea?

Uhuru Kenyatta: Dr. Troll: Your bias is showing. It is blatantly obvious from your arguments that you are attacking the Teragen. Be aware that the organization you work for is far from pure, and they have the major benefit of a multi-billion dollar PR department.

Is it an attack to speak only your mind and only the truth? More to the point, even by the most charitable and (I think) unrealistic interpretation of Charr's motivations there are eleven corpses with his name on them that were innocent bystanders. Don't confuse me trying to paint a big black hat on someone... with me holding up a mirror and pointing to the hat.

Yeah, Utopia screws up every now and then. It happens. Presumably we try to learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.

[H. 'Machine' Mann]

Normally I'm quite a creative individual and never at a loss for words but I swear the only analogy that comes to mind is a car wreck. All twisted metal and blood. I know its a monstrous sight and yet I feel compelled to examine it anyway.

The only question left unanswered in my mind is who you could have blackmail material on and what it could possibly be that your superiors would tolerate this idiocy. Blinded by ego as he can sometimes be, not even Caestus Pax would contenance this utter incompetance in a public arena. A member of T2M suspended for a mere piccadillo in a moment of anger yet this mockery continues seemingly without end.

What is truly sad is this ridiculous posturing is more likely to generate ill-will towards an organization with noble goals, and sympathy for an outlaw, all because Project Utopia Nova Resources couldn't find an isolated location without restricted Opnet access. Or a vytium muzzle.

[Charr]

Come on novas! Let's give it up for Doctor "I'm so smart I'm stupid" Troll.

Any more questions Frankie or does this just about cover it.

[Ghostwriter]

Threatening to kill and eat someone is hardly a pecadillo, Mr Mann. I acted terribly on that day and I'm glad I didn't get sacked for it.

If it cheers you up any, Charr, Caestus Pax in a fury isn't a pleasant sight to behold. I think I lost most of my molting feathers then.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

Ashnod talking to Preston about Troll: I would remove his right to contribute because he has demonstrated no desire to participate in the government itself, Preston.

??? Where did you get that idea?

You work for Utopia. Does Utopia support the idea of a Nova only State? Or does Utopia support the Zurich Accords and the U.N. ,which by extension supports China that practices the belief that a Nova citizen of China is a slave.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

H. 'Machine' Mann: ...Blinded by ego as he can sometimes be, not even Caestus Pax would contenance this utter incompetance in a public arena.

I don't work for, or with, Pax. I'm with S&T, Environmental: Biological Sciences. On paper my "boss" is AD Eliz Balogh. Her email is on their website.

If you want to complain you should mention what part of my writings has shown "incompetence".

Prodigy: You work for Utopia. Does Utopia support the idea of a Nova only State? Or does Utopia support the Zurich Accords and the U.N., which by extension supports China that practices the belief that a Nova citizen of China is a slave.

Hmm, a perfect "straw man argument". On the one hand is a NOS, on the other is the slavery of nova kind. I suspect we have more than those two choices.

If I expect both Utopians and Terats to take part then it will be quite broad. One option would be along the lines of the UN Security Council. Various groups would have representatives, etc.

Another option would be something like a true nova state, with officers, some sort of quasi-citizenship, and laws.

[Hugin]

Dr. Troll, I will say this very carefully. You are a Utopian. Utopia supports the Zurich Accord which claims that Novas and Humans are of the same race and should be treated the same under the law. Therefore, the idea that you'd be involved in the creation of a society that excludes baselines strikes me as unlikely.

And I mean actually involved, not just spouting off your opinions. I mean sitting down with Terats, Independents, Elites, what have you, and taking actual action towards the creation of a Nova government. Doing things that will get you thrown out of Utopia. I do not see you willing to do that.

[H. 'Machine' Mann]

Ms MacLachlan, I am not entirely unfamiliar with the sometimes poorly aimed frustrations of Caestus Pax though its never been directed at me peronally. Inspite of that, or perhaps I should more accurately say despite that, I would characterise the statements you hurled in anger as merely a metaphor for expressing your emotions. After all, did you really intend to carry through and slice a man up into bite sized pieces to consume with butter and lemon? Or were you simply articulating the anger you felt towards him?

We sometimes say things in anger that we will not follow through. I would not assign nobility to that in execution or intention but neither would I call it more than a piccodillo.

Doctor Smith:

Incompetance = poorly reasoned, logically suspect and reeking of bias while attempting to disguise disingenious intentions as something objective or benign. You are no better, though possibly better intended, than those men that used psuedo scientific posturing to assert any claim no matter how nonsensical. That black men are easily swayed, lack moral fiber or are genetically inferior pilots compared to white men. That Amerindians are lazy. That Hispanics woman are promiscuous. That the human body would suffer catastrophic failure if accelerated to the unheard of velocities of over twenty miles per hour. On a sheerly personal note; words fail to express the degree to which I detest those of your ilk.

Quote:

On paper my "boss" is AD Eliz Balogh. Her email is on their website.

Oh, I think not. That she tolerates this idiocy speaks volumes regarding her own judgement. I did carbon copy her on the messages sent elsewhere.

I thought it more productive to directly contact Internal Affairs for obvious reasons, Public Relations that they might express their thoughts on the manner these diatribes could detrimentally affect Project Utopia, and of course Nova Resources that has somehow not found something more productive with which to occupy your time.

Doctor Smith, as your failure as a mercenary did not convey this to you, a lack of communication some how repeated in Project orientation, let me share the secret. A global perspective in required to be of benefit to the project. Otherwise you are simply a occasionally useful tool that is tolerated as your usefulness still exceeds your detriment to the Project. Your ridiculous theories and ignomius stupid-pet debate tactics have no place in representing the Project. Should you wish to continue I would advise you to obtain a psuedonym to post under therefore sparing the Project further needless embarrassment.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

Careful there. That sounds very close to "you can't contribute until you think/believe like I do".

More correctly, you can't contribute until you accept that the Zurich Accord is wrong. I care little if you join the Teragen or follow Teras.

Fair is fair Ashnod. You don't have any problems telling me how I should live or what I should think or what I'm doing wrong.

That is because you are wrong. I am not going to apologize or be politically correct on that point. Once you accept that you are not human, I will shut my mouth and let you live your own live as you see fit, even if I disagree with it. I will speak my opinions towards you because I have lived in the baseline world under baseline authority. I have experience in doing so. You do not have similar experience with my current situation.

You'll note, Dr. Smith, that while I disagree with Preston, I do not tell him how to properly live as a Nova beside humanity. He, understanding that he is not human and the Zurich Accord is not correct, chooses to live among them. I am not walking that path at the moment and am not criticizing how he does it. I do publicly debate him on points, but this is not the same as telling him how to walk his path.

What do you think the next stage would be?

Education continues to be this stage. Progress will remain slow until more of us come to accept the truth.

Where did you get that idea?

You have expressed no interest whatsoever in it thus far. Oh, you are quick to call upon the Teragen to get more organized, sure. You continue to live safely, in the already established baseline society. You throw taunts and hostility towards those of us living outside it, yet you remain where you are instead of leaving it behind to help. You represent, as Prodigy as stated, an organization dedicated to upholding the Zurich Accord and whom defends vehemently the position that Novas are human and need no government of their own.

But honestly, Dr. Smith, if your intent is to wait and see what the first Nova government forms as, and then decide if it is preferable to join it than remain in the baseline world after seeing its creation, I have even less interest in speaking with you on this. The position of one who wishes to reap the rewards but take none of the risks to forge them is, frankly, disgusting.

Your remark indicates a fair degree of surprise, however. So, do you wish to be part of a Nova community, and build forth a Nova government? If so, why are in your current state?


So in other words, Yes! I'm 100% right (I'm guessing that's what you meant to say ). There are terat clicks out there who are really into soma, it's trade, and even it's production. The good news is they have a nova who doesn't need to harvest nodes. Presumably this is yet another varient on matter creation like our Eufiber fashion king. Sounds like an interesting guy.

Sometimes it is too easy. Sometimes, I think there is a little Charr in everyone...

I threw that paragraph out there as bait deliberately to watch you snag it and proclaim it a victory.

I never said any of those things, Dr. Smith. You are assuming that my words validate your point. Watch as I wave my magic wand:

a) I never stated that we could synthesize soma, only that you should consider the possibility that we could.

If we can synthesize soma, we are not part of the "soma trafficking" you are referring to, as what we are doing does not result in the injury or death of a Nova to manufacture it.

c) If we can synthesize soma, Nova Vigilance would still go out of its way to destroy those who create it the traditional way, ergo, killing a Nova.

d) Just because we could synthesize it, does not mean it leaves the Teragen.

e) If we can synthesize it, we have no need to deal with the "traditional" soma traffickers. We can produce it ourselves.

f) If we are actually trafficking synthetic soma, it's in our interests to eliminate the competition both for financial reasons, and to stem the deaths of the Nova population caused by the traffickers who sell the soma you are accusing us of dealing.

This is typical of your reaction to everything I have been saying thus far. You seize upon one tiny item that seems to qualify your argument and suddenly magnify to devastating proportions as though I have handed you victory.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regan 'Codex' McLachlan:
Threatening to kill and eat someone is hardly a pecadillo, Mr Mann. I acted terribly on that day and I'm glad I didn't get sacked for it.

If it cheers you up any, Charr, Caestus Pax in a fury isn't a pleasant sight to behold. I think I lost most of my molting feathers then.

Yes, interesting, isn't it. Both you and V admitted to censure/disciplinary action for comments stated here, but Agnelli Celeste, Singularity, and Dr. Smith speak seemingly without repercussion...

[Charr]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regan 'Codex' McLachlan:
If it cheers you up any, Charr, Caestus Pax in a fury isn't a pleasant sight to behold.

Not really.

You stood there and took it from that self-righteous prick while he got off on taking you down. I've seen his soul. I know what goes through his twisted little mind.

[Ghostwriter]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Yes, interesting, isn't it. Both you and V admitted to censure/disciplinary action for comments stated here, but Agnelli Celeste, Singularity, and Dr. Smith speak seemingly without repercussion...

Who's to say they don't go without punishment? Agnelli Celeste is persona-non-grata and seemingly vanished and while I can't speak for the other two, I know that Singularity has been disciplined a time or two; he just doesn't choose to talk about it the way I do.

I know I've got a hell of a lot of faults and picked up a few more at the Pow-Wow. I'm not afraid to admit them either.

Does that make me a poor T2M'er? Probably. But I've never claimed to be a good one. I just do the best I can with what I have.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regan 'Codex' McLachlan:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Yes, interesting, isn't it. Both you and V admitted to censure/disciplinary action for comments stated here, but Agnelli Celeste, Singularity, and Dr. Smith speak seemingly without repercussion...

Agnelli Celeste is persona-non-grata and seemingly vanished and while I can't speak for the other two, I know that Singularity has been disciplined a time or two; he just doesn't choose to talk about it the way I do.

And because I am not a member of Team Tomorrow, I am not as closely watched as Codex is. Punishment is merely temporary and I take offense to others trying to censor my opinions. But that is not a rant for here.

[Vox Via]

Preston I will neither say if I whole-heartedly agree or disagree with James or Ashnod. I am not here for them. They fallow their own path, and I fallow my own as well. You do as well, and I respect you for the fact you are trying to do good. You are at least trying.

But, I have to ask you a few things. When was the last time you were solving a crime, and were explaining what you saw to your peer, and saw blank looks, or were asked to repeat it. When was the last time you asked one of your peers what they thought was the who, how or whys of a crime, and gotten an answer that you didn’t already know? Think really hard, as I you need to dumb yourself down for your peers, are they really your peers?

Now I don’t know if you are like me in this way, but I have not needed sleep or food for years. I forget what being tired or hungry is like. I have slept in the past years, but mainly just to dream. I have only eaten thing that taste good. But I have gone at least a year without either. How often do you sleep? How often do you eat?

You say novas should work with humans, and indeed novas are still human. I have to ask you this; at point is the burden on novas too much? At what point will humans help themselves again? When will it be said that humans could have solved the pollution problems on their own. Yes it would have taken longer and may not be as good as we did it. But coal, and oil aren’t and haven’t been the only sources of fuel available for decades. When will they as people claim credit for the fact they let millions of people starve to death, for no other reason than to keep the prices of food stable?

Lastly name one thing that a baseline has done in the past 10 years that has helped novas a whole. I see them being driven into complacency. Why bother to try, a nova will do anything worth doing.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

H. 'Machine' Mann: Doctor Smith: ..."Incompetance"...On a sheerly personal note; words fail to express the degree to which I detest those of your ilk.

Sticks and stones. I'm already in the process of getting my knuckles rapped, thank you. By the way, "Incompetence" isn't spelled with an "a".

David 'Dr. Troll' Smith: Careful there. That sounds very close to "you can't contribute until you think/believe like I do".

Ashnod: More correctly, you can't contribute until you accept that the Zurich Accord is wrong. I care little if you join the Teragen or follow Teras.

Just as long as I work for Utopia. Thought so.

David 'Dr. Troll' Smith: Fair is fair Ashnod. You don't have any problems telling me how I should live or what I should think or what I'm doing wrong.

Ashnod: That is because you are wrong. I am not going to apologize or be politically correct on that point. Once you accept that you are not human, I will shut my mouth and let you live your own life...You do not have similar experience with my current situation.

Just because I don't know how to drive a bus doesn't mean I can't point out when it isn't driven correctly. Ditto building a car, ditto lots of stuff.

Second, discussion of my views on "humanity" are on a different thread, but that appears to be a political and not a scientific discussion. Historically one group decides another "isn't human" as justification for things like slavery & genocide. The thought process is something like "they are not us, we can do to them what we will". Nova/Baseline relations are not be well served by this path.

We are them. They are us. They are our mothers, fathers, lovers, coworkers, and children. So far, the difference between nova and baseline is less than the difference among baselines.

Ashnod: Your remark indicates a fair degree of surprise, however. So, do you wish to be part of a Nova community, and build forth a Nova government? If so, why are in your current state?

Utopia is a company, not a government. Theoretically I could change my citizenship to any place that would take me, however I suspect a "Nova government" wouldn't need land or territories.

Ashnod: You have expressed no interest whatsoever in it thus far. Oh, you are quick to call upon the Teragen to get more organized, sure. You continue to live safely, in the already established baseline society. You throw taunts and hostility towards those of us living outside it, yet you remain where you are instead of leaving it behind to help. You represent, as Prodigy as stated, an organization dedicated to upholding the Zurich Accord and whom defends vehemently the position that Novas are human and need no government of their own.

RE: "Novas are human"

As I've said on that other thread, this is a political, not a scientific, decision. From a scientific stand point the "definition" of human is so vague and broad if we ever run into aliens it's likely they could be considered "human" as well. The Zurich Accord said novas were human because the alternative was to say that we could be put down like dogs. By saying that we had "human rights" it meant that, for example, the United States didn't have to amend it's constitution to give novas the right to vote or to run for President.

RE: Do novas need a government.

This is also a political decision. Personally I'd say "no", we don't "need" it... but there are enough novas out there who "want" one that forming something might be useful. This specifically is true of followers of teras. What form it takes (trade union, government, UN security council, club, company, or advisory body) is something that hasn't been resolved yet.

Personally I would hope that a nova government would be open to all novas, including ones who think that baselines and novas can live & work together. But if I'm to be excluded because I have baseline relatives, or friends, or because you don't think I suffer enough in my lifestyle, then so be it.

-------------------------------------

Troll: There are terat clicks out there who are really into soma, it's trade, and even it's production. ...they have a nova who doesn't need to harvest nodes. Presumably this is yet another varient on matter creation like our Eufiber fashion king.

Ashnod: I threw that paragraph out there as bait deliberately to watch you snag it and proclaim it a victory. I never said any of those things, Dr. Smith. You are assuming that my words validate your point.

Or it's just bad form to talk about another terat's specific abilities on an open forum. Your "magic" words don't change the facts that led me to that conclusion, but it's nice to see I wasn't the only one hitting the "enter" button while hot under the collar.

Ashnod: If we can synthesize soma, we are not part of the "soma trafficking" you are referring to, as what we are doing does not result in the injury or death of a Nova to manufacture it.

Just the addiction of novas to this stuff, and then those guys have the choice of staying loyal or feeding their habit with more "traditional" soma.

Ashnod: d) Just because we could synthesize it, [it] does not mean it leaves the Teragen.

There are morgues that say it does.

Ashnod: c) If we can synthesize soma, Nova Vigilance would still go out of its way to destroy those who create it the traditional way, ergo, killing a Nova.

Another way of putting that is you are trying to corner the market.

Ashnod: e) If we can synthesize it, we have no need to deal with the "traditional" soma traffickers. We can produce it ourselves.

You have no need to deal with traditional soma "Producers". The traffickers you have every reason to deal with because if you are supplying them, then they are taking less from their other sources and this reduces the number of dead novas. Better yet, if offered a cheaper source, traffickers probably wouldn't mind selling out their "traditional" suppliers. This lets you work your way up the chain, which is much easier than trying to find someone who is somewhere killing an unknown nova.

Ashnod: f) If we are actually trafficking synthetic soma, it's in our interests to eliminate the competition both for financial reasons, and to stem the deaths of the Nova population caused by the traffickers who sell the soma you are accusing us of dealing.

And to elimate soma dealers who are working with the police. My error on the rest, it sounds like your production process is a lot less vile than the traditional methods. Still, soma is pretty nasty stuff on it own. Is your product less addicting than the real stuff, or is there even a difference?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Vanguard,

You compare your strengths to their weaknesses.

I could reverse that, how many nova-only disorders do you have? Did you build the computer you are using to log into this web site? How many children do you have? Without food, could you feed them if they existed? Could you grow that food or would you buy it from a baseline?

We are stronger together.

[Ashnod]

Dr. Smith,

I presented you with a hypothetical situation, followed by hypothetical scenarios were that to be true. Nothing more. Do not begin treating my words on the idea a synthetic soma trade as fact. Are we clear on this? I will not have my words twisted by you again.