opnet [OpNet] So i have built forth a few of the temples

[Loge]

You people are looking way too deeply into this. And hitting bottom. What is the big deal with the lady recreating some temples? Okay her english sucks. Get over it. Her grammar is like a polar bear in a ballerina costume. Impressive in a way but still makes you wonder what the heck you're looking at.

Good Alice never claimed to be a believer. She never claimed to hold to any religion, real or imagined, as anything more than an excuse to build something. What she said was she built temples and offered anyone else a chance at making theirs. I'm even reconsidering whether to take her up on it. Not that it would attract any worshippers, just more of the tourist coming to see structures they'd otherwise never see except on chips or in books, but it might be fun. If nothing else it adds to her theme park without costing her much which I assume was the point. You people do know that Good Alice isn't the first to do a theme re-creation don't you? She might be the first nova but theme parks are common. Even religious theme parks, 1/10th scale reproductions of temples, aren't uncommon.

Who cares what she does for a hobby?

[Good Alice]

let's list a few idea of religion that i could believe in and still build these temples.

One, what if Zues Sheva are the same gods, but different names do to drifting of ideas and mythos.

Two what if they are diferent aspects of the same god. Choosing to apear as different forms for whatever reason is in a God's head.

three what if hey say they have more power than they really do and thus only are rulers of rigion.They are the gods of gods only because their egos will not let them say they are limited. It could only be in their followers.

But hey we know that religions are never used to the ends of people over another...

[Tempest]

Why are you talking about mythological figures as if they were real people? And even if there really were "gods" a la the pantheonic beliefs of ancient civilizations, why are you assuming that they'd think the way average an person would.

It sounds like you need to start taking your meds again lady.

[Kultra]

Oh I dont know Tempest.

Maybe she thinks all this gods were opportunistic people who tricked a couple tens of people, and the fame spread. Why? I wouldn't know.

I agree with Ptesan-Wi and Sylvan, mostly on one thing.

You claim to follow religions with contradictory dogmas and contradictory tales of creation, on top of that you are building the temples yourself, with out the aid of communities that follow this dieties, on top of that none of the dieties who you seem to revere are local to Southern Mexico, this temples are meaningless unless you have someone who revers them besides you.

They might be works of art, I don't know becuase I don't know you personally to know if you are an artist, but they are not houses of veneration; Simply because there is no one to use them as such.

A Barn without cows or farmers is not a Barn, its just a building.

[Loge]

Originally Posted By: J. 'Polymath' Rivera

They might be works of art, I don't know becuase I don't know you personally to know if you are an artist, but they are not houses of veneration; Simply because there is no one to use them as such.

Exactly!

The only thing I'm not really sure of is why she's letting you guys spin like this. It would have been easy enough to just let you in on the whole tourist thing as soon as somebody started debating religion. Not sure if I'd call reproductions art or not though. Maybe art in as much as the originals were pretty but that's about it.

[Good Alice]

I never said what I do or not believe in. What if i did build them for me? Would the act of building the building for me make them worthless, and waste of time?

I opened them to the public, it does not mean I made them for the public. Now if you wish to know why I built them you can ask me in private, but I will not preach those things in such a public place.

[Satyr]

This entire concept is insulting to most polytheists I know. If you really want to know why then you probably have no business building so many fooking temples to dieties that you quite clearly have no idea what they consider proper worship.

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

One, what if Zues Sheva are the same gods, but different names do to drifting of ideas and mythos.

Two what if they are diferent aspects of the same god. Choosing to apear as different forms for whatever reason is in a God's head.

Zeus and Shiva are pointedly NOT the same diety. They simply cover some of the same concepts as eachother. Much the same way that Loki of the old Norse religion, and Coyote of the Native American faith do.

I'm a bit surprised that none of their followers razed your lovely temples to the ground for making such a suggestion. Mind you I am aware that Zeus as the god of the sky and thunder, had a great love for the theatrical, and romanced women whereever he found them, in doing so fathered children all over his lands, which by the way angered his wife Hera to no end.

Shiva on the other hand... according to Shaivism, the Good Lord Shiva performed five functions: 1) Creation. 2) Preservation. 3)Destruction of Evil. 4) Reprieving his followers from the sins. 5) most importantly: Blessing. According to Hindu traditions, Shiva does everything. Shiva sounds like a very enlightened soul, whereas Zeus, well... Zeus loved a lot of... people.

That said, I seriously question your motives in building these supposed places of worship when you have next to no knowledge of what you are doing, and even less faith.

I have recently lost my place of worship, if I find that you have built or are building one of your mockeries of a temple to my diety of choice I will find it and tear it down. Then, you and I will have words.

[Loge]

Are we a little stressed, Satyr?

Take a cuppa and try to relax.

Okay Good Alice, I've decided to consider your offer seriously. What are the specifics? I need to know the size of the plots you're offering up before I can make any plans. Feel free to PM me with the details when you get riling up the religious majors.

And no, I don't care what your relationship is to any of those faiths you built temples for already. If it looks good and I decide to go ahead with contributing to your religious theme park then we can talk about that.

[Satyr]

Have a moron claim to be truly faithful while dragging your own faith through the mud. You would be somewhat stressed too, Loge.

[Loge]

Ah, but she never claimed to be truly faithful. Think of it as religious slum lording. Of course the places would be condemned by anyone not impressed by novas and having that many temples in a small area but since everyone is impressed by novas and having that many temples in one small area...

Look at the bright side; your faith is going to get an upsurge in popularity again. Use it wisely and make some real good happen.

And I'm not planning on tanking anyone else's faith. I'm going to add a place Green Man would be happy to sit a while. All living, all natural and all impressive. Assuming she'll give up the square footage needed for forestation.

[Good Alice]

Originally Posted By: Satyr

Have a moron claim to be truly faithful while dragging your own faith through the mud. You would be somewhat stressed too, Loge.

True,I should be rather stressed out. I most pointy said these are not my beliefs, rather a set of ideas that could work toward a reason I have built so many temples to so many gods, of so many religions. You Simply implied by me righting these ideas down that I believed them.


Would you say that I think Stalin was a good leader on the ground that some historians can prove form their point of view he was. After all he took a fudel back water nations and within one generation took them into space. He kill millions of people, only because he had limited food resources and famin does that sort of thing..Now I can see these ideas, and see their points but that does not mean i agree with them. Simply stating them does not mean that I agree.

If I recall correctly call yourself a pagan. If you do so, then you spit on your own religion more than I do. I never said your religion was wrong or wicked. You on the other hand have done so by using that term, as that term means those who not only waorship false gods, but those who worshop, evil and wicked gods. I do not do that, I hope you do not do that either.

[Satyr]

Would you agree that certain words have more than one definition?

pa.gan  /*pe.gən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-guhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.

2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.

3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.

–adjective 4. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.

6. irreligious or hedonistic.

Do yourself a favor and pay close attention to definition #1.

The biggest insult I see here is callimg my ilk hedonistic, which I have to say, I've been called worse, and quite frankly, to call me me irreligious is ridiculous.

True, it would be more apt to call myself a Neo-pagan, but who has the time for all those syllables?

This is what I am talking about, I shouldn't have to stick a definition under your nose to get you to stop talking about things of which you obviously have no idea.

[Lyn 'Indigo' Ross]

Good Alice, you work with Project Utopia and you praise Stalin?

Honey, you are the most fucked-up individual I've ever met since becoming a nova.

[Satyr]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

True,I should be rather stressed out. I most pointy said these are not my beliefs, rather a set of ideas that could work toward a reason I have built so many temples to so many gods, of so many religions. You Simply implied by me righting these ideas down that I believed them.

Actually I think at one point I said point blank that I don't pick up any measure of faith from what your works. So, No. I never believed for a moment that you believed it for yourself.

Given that this isn't about belief or faith for you makes it deeply insulting and dangerous that you would even think it is okay to build places of worship for those that do believe.
To presume you would know what passes for a temple or worship for each indiviual faith is the very definition of arrogance.

I am a high priest in a branch of the Celtic religion and I would never presume to know what sort of temple to build for Muslims, Catholics, or Othodox Jews. Considering most major religions have exacting architectural requirements for all their temples.

This is simply a level of hubris I've only seen matched in Englishmen, some of the more violent members of CoMA, and certain members of the 'One Race'.

[Loge]

Well this is going well.

Hey Good Alice... What's going on with answering my questions? Are you waiting for lawyers to get back to you or what?

[Leliel]

Originally Posted By: Lyn 'Indigo' Ross

Good Alice, you work with Project Utopia and you praise Stalin?

Honey, you are the most fucked-up individual I've ever met since becoming a nova.

From what I have heard, working with Utopia and praising Stalin are not all that incompatable, but then again I could be considered biased...

I actually think she was speaking metaphorically though, using that as an item of comparison to prove a point.

[Good Alice]

I stated facts about Stalin, to my views do those facts. I do not think he was a good leader, but others have tried to make him out to be so.

[Good Alice]

It is all about faith.It is all about my faith. It is all so all about your faith, and everyone else's. I simply do not wish to shout it out from on top of a soap box. You do not understand, but you do not seem happy with that. You wish for me to rant and rave about my personal religious view point in a public form. I will not.I am not shamed of it. I just do not think most people will understand it.

[Satyr]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

It is all about faith.It is all about my faith. It is all so all about your faith, and everyone else's. I simply do not wish to shout it out from on top of a soap box. You do not understand, but you do not seem happy with that. You wish for me to rant and rave about my personal religious view point in a public form. I will not.I am not shamed of it. I just do not think most people will understand it.

You don't want to shout it out from the top of a soap box, but you build faux temples for those who might. Which is worse I wonder?

Faith is a beautiful thing which can easily be perverted into a catylyst for the propagation of rape, murder, and the invasion of foreign countries.

All you have proven thusfar with this is that you never speak up to the facts on the subject, you are evasive when it comes to why you would do such a thing; your knowledge of polytheistic religions is scant at best. As such I don't believe you have any business building temples for said religions.

Although I will say we agree on one point: "I just do not think most people will understand it." Probably not, but do you think that those people foolhardy enough to buy into your temples might deserve some explaination as to why?

[Good Alice]

I will have to think about it. I will urge you to use private means of contacting me with such issues. I have roughly 30,000 acres of land. Not all of it is useable and not all of it is worth using.

[Gerald Haney]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

I have built a temple to To the unknown God,Isis, Sol, Mithra, Sheva, Kali, Odin, and I am nearly done with the temple to Zeus.

Curious, was anything implied by the order in which you decided to build the temples? How about those that you haven't build yet (assuming you're going to continue to build)? How come Shiva and Kali but not Ganesha (sp? The elephant dude in India) Isis but no Osiris. Odin but not Thor, Balder or Loki (Loki wasn't always considered an evil god y'know.)

Just curious.

[Loge]

Honey, trust the judgment of an enviro-path. Its all usable if you look at it with the right mindset. I'll contact you privately but I wanted it on record that we talked and I asked. It'll save problems later if we disagree.

[Good Alice]

Originally Posted By: Satyr

You don't want to shout it out from the top of a soap box, but you build faux temples for those who might. Which is worse I wonder?...

Faith is a beautiful thing which can easily be perverted into a catylyst for the propagation of rape, murder, and the invasion of foreign countries...

All you have proven thusfar with this is that you never speak up to the facts on the subject, you are evasive when it comes to why you would do such a thing; your knowledge of polytheistic religions is scant at best... As such I don't believe you have any business building temples for said religions.

...do you think that those people foolhardy enough to buy into your temples might deserve some explaination as to why?

You seem to wish me to both take responseablity for actions of others and not at the same time.

You claim my temples are fake, and you want me to justify them to you? You dare call them false when you have not seen them, and wonder why I am evaisive.

You condemn my faith without knowing it, and you wish me to betray it because you deserve that level of respect from me? I will freely talk to you in private, you or anyone else who wishes to to know.I will not talk in public. You can either understand this or beat your head into an unmoveable obbject.

[Good Alice]

Some areas have resources that I wish to use in the future. The rocks, and such need to stay where they are until they will be used later.Other parts need to remain the same until something better comes along. The details need to be worked out in a more safe place than this.

[Satyr]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

You seem to wish me to both take responseablity for actions of others and not at the same time.

You claim my temples are fake, and you want me to justify them to you? You dare call them false when you have not seen them, and wonder why I am evaisive.

You condemn my faith without knowing it, and you wish me to betray it because you deserve that level of respect from me? I will freely talk to you in private, you or anyone else who wishes to to know.I will not talk in public. You can either understand this or beat your head into an unmoveable obbject.

Scots have long been reputed to be stubborn.

I have to point out that you were evasive about the reasoning for building temples long before I deigned to speak up on it.
As far as your faith is concerned, after reading everything related (several Opsites, the local newspaper, your own dedicated OpSite...) to what you are attemping, I believe I have stumbled onto the why of it. I am of the opinion that it is doomed to failure, but I won't will not come knocking at your door... unless you offend me again.

I simply want to go on record saying: Polytheism doesn't work that way.

[Loge]

Good Alice - Fair enough. But like I said I'm an enviropath. The square footage is resource and that's what I need, square footage. The rest of it is just in the way and it'll get moved. I'll move it.

I'm thinking about what I want to do and then I'll contact you.

[Joy 'Kitsch' Lee]

I've got an answer.

Who cares?

[Loge]

Good luck on that one Joy. I tried to remind everyone of that a couple of weeks ago and as you can see by the posts made after Novermber the Sixth it pretty much went in one ear and out the other.

[BlackThorn]

I've been thinking about this thread and what Good Alice has been doing for some time. I showed it to my Grandmother and she strongly suggested I go down and correct Alice and her heathen ways. I showed it to my co-workers and they either laughed or thought Alice was nucking futs. I showed it to my Boss and he suggested I see a priest. I showed it to my priest and he did what all good priests do ... he helped me find my own answers.

What follows is my own opinion, and is only an opinion.

Good Alice, you will fail in your endeavor because a House of Worship is more than mortar, marble, bricks, and clay. A House of Worship is the physical manifestation of a community's faith. You are not a community. You are one individual creating monuments to your own personal vision and wealth, nothing more. No matter how grandeous, or plain, your buildings are, they are little more than trouphies to your creative energy, vanity, and twisted vision ... much like what Stalin's.

Good Alice, you have missed out on what faith and religion are really all about. They are about people and are apart of people's lives. I feel sorry for you, because these monuments appear to me to be nothing more than a misguided appeal for attention and comfort, but you are going about it all wrong. You are going at it expecting everyone else to change to your ideals and beliefs, when you are approaching this from a place of loneliness and abandon.

Please rethink what you are doing. In the end, I feel all you will do is offend many, confuse others, and remain alone.

Go with God,

Tessio

[Loge]

*yawn*

Try baking. No really, try baking. I don't care how much juice you got, how much power you can channel, how much you can whip reality into a twist or how big your brain is. Some things just can't be rushed without screwing up the dish. Same thing here. You build something and then you leave... it... the... fuck... alone. Its going to become what its going to become. A tourist attraction with a religious bent, an undetermined inspiration, a white elephant in the middle of nowhere, or an excuse for an influx of money into the Mexican economy. Heck, I'm just a part of it because I had an idea and she's got the land for me to play it out in.

I don't actually believe Good Alice is going to get the result she's looking for, not sure if she knows what she's looking for, and see your comments as well intentioned but ultimately meaningless. Unless you manage to convince her in which case I don't get a place to develop my own idea and go on to something different. Either way I'm pretty sure god, God, or Goddess is going to be finding this pretty much as amusing as everything else we do.

[Good Alice]

You are well and fine thinking what you think. You still have yet to see them. You have yet to hear the voices sing out in the name of faith. I have built the walls, those of faith have filled them.