opnet [OpNet] What do you all think?

[Gypsy]

I am in Oakland and the world has left us behind in many cases. It is a city that lives in the shadows of other cities. Now there is a small problem, the mayor is rather sick, and is stepping down They will be running another race for the Mayor(hood?) this winter.

Now I am thinking about running for the job. i feel that one of the main reasons Oakland is in the shape it is in is well bad PR. Would it be a good or bad thing to have someone in the Mayor office who is famous for being young ,wild and "progressive" in a city that is slowly being reduced to a border of two cities?

[Timeslip]

Baseline government is something to step above, not to incorporate oneself into. Consider, Gypsy, whether you wish to be a king among insects or a peer among gods.

[Mithril]

Get a good speech writer.

[Ellen 'Ultraviolet' Bach]

I thought you needed a brain to have a node...

[Leliel]

Timeline pretty much hit to the core of it. Let me add however that if you want to go into politics, why not find one of the pacific islands, and start a nation of the One Race?

Admittedly this would be frought with potential danger, but the results would be for the benefit of all Novas. Who said the Uppies are the only ones who can terraform areas of the planet?

[Gypsy]

Timeslip, you may believe anything you wish to do so. I think you are misguided. I will not go into further details.

I am getting a good speach writer. I used to work for N! after all.

Leliel, I am trying to make a world that I would want to live in. I see this as the best way to do so. I am no superman.I can't fight crime, nor can I make computers look slow.I can however make people feel better and I can make people smile. I was told that is alarge part of being good at politics, as people who feel good tend to do less stupid things.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

(Heh, logged in to Flicker's account again. Sorry about that. --GMoT)

[Mithril]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy:
I can however make people feel better and I can make people smile. I was told that is alarge part of being good at politics, as people who feel good tend to do less stupid things. [/QB]

This is the funniest thing I've read all day.

You should have written that people who feel good do "fewer" stupid things, not "less" stupid things. You use fewer for things that can be counted, like potatoes or discrete actions. You use "less" for things that cannot be quantified into discrete units, like sand or water.

Examples:

Less sand
Fewer bags of sand (the bags can be counted)
Less water
Fewer bottles of water
Fewer dumb things
less dumbness


Anyway, by saying that the people will do "less stupid things," you make it sound as if your potential constituents are prone to doing things that are stupid, but if you are elected and you make them happy, then they will do things that are less stupid than usual.

That's hilarious. It's also a wonderfully cynical outlook on baselines.

If I wasn't convinced that you were a moron, I'd say you were a genius.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

I am so changing my password now. I can't believe you sometimes, Meghan.

[Ellen 'Ultraviolet' Bach]

GMOT, we soooooo have to meet.

[Mithril]

That can probably be arranged.

[Ellen 'Ultraviolet' Bach]

You bring the darts, I'll bring the picture of Gypsy...

[Timeslip]

Very well, Gypsy. You asked, I spoke, you ignored. You have now cast your lot with the baselines and will find that such an action comes at a steep price.

[Gypsy]

No, you got on your soap box topic, that was nothing about what I ask. You are tainted by your views to the point that you did not see I was asking if it would be good for the city and not for me.

So, if i wanted advice on how to be a self proclaimed god I will ask you. Right now you are coming off as a preacher trying to tell a student, you shouldn't worry about evolution cause we were all made 5,000 years ago. That is just my take on it.

[Velvet]

First: Hello, Gypsy. Pleasure to meet you.

Second: Doll, if you're that quick to get your panties in a twist, politics is definitely not the right career path for you. If you get elected to any kind of office at all, people will instantly hate and disagree with you. It doesn't matter what stance you take, or what side- you can't make 'em all happy. You sure you can deal with that love?

[Leliel]

If we were all made 5000 years ago then how can the Andromeda Galaxy be over 2 million light years away? Or carbon/argon dating showing fossils millions of years old, Or....

As far as the original subject.

You say the question was whether or not what you would be doing would be good for the city. Cities are not living things. As far as whether your actions would be good for the city's people?

Politics is rife with corruption. Greed is at the core of most baselines (and quite a few novas) in the world. By getting involved with any political system, you expose yourself to said corruption. What's more, putting yourself in the public eye like this will indeed expose you to hatred, fear, etc...

If you want to do this then fine, but as Timeslip said there will be consequences. We need to look out for our own futures, not to be servants of the baselines.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leliel:
Cities are not living things.

I'm really sorry but you are just so wrong on this one dude. Cities are alive, alive but sleeping. One even died not too long ago and I'm glad I wasn't there to hear it. Even across the world I could the echoes though and knew she died. I just couldn't believe it . A bunch of jerk offs with nodes killed a city then just left. Chalk this up to quantum weirdness if you got to but that won't make it any less true.

They live, they dream and they can die. Some are male and some are female. Others can't decide what they want to be so there's some that waffle in between and a couple that are one but act like the other. I think they can even wake up but that's just a guess since I've never been there when I think it happened.

Peace.

[Regina Newcastle]

Enjoy your stay in Emperor Norton's prison, you daft bastard.

[Tarot]

Sweet! A new place to check out.

When London get's up from his nap and shakes cynical prigs off like a dog coming out of the rain you'll be sorry you didn't pay more attention. Nah, I'm just kidding. London hasn't gotten off his ass in a long time. Definitely a score or two but I get the feeling its probably more like centuries. And you know, its always the people that are so sure they got it figured out that turn out to be the clueless ones. I like your sig line.

I'm Chris btw. Sometime painter, full time artiste, part time fool and professional scoffer. Good to meet you Reggie.

[Regina Newcastle]

I guess that would make me "Reggie", full-time scientist, part-time punisher of hubris and frequent curtain-puller to the imps who crowd behind the shroud of magic and fantasy.

You know, sometimes the cheerfully mad aren't full of forbidden insight; more frequently, they are simply mad.

[Origami]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:

Quote:

Originally posted by Leliel:
Cities are not living things.

I'm really sorry but you are just so wrong on this one dude. Cities are alive, alive but sleeping. One even died not too long ago and I'm glad I wasn't there to hear it. Even across the world I could the echoes though and knew she died. I just couldn't believe it . A bunch of jerk offs with nodes killed a city then just left. Chalk this up to quantum weirdness if you got to but that won't make it any less true.

They live, they dream and they can die. Some are male and some are female. Others can't decide what they want to be so there's some that waffle in between and a couple that are one but act like the other. I think they can even wake up but that's just a guess since I've never been there when I think it happened.

Peace.

You know, it would be facinating to have a conversation with you at some time.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
You know, sometimes the cheerfully mad aren't full of forbidden insight; more frequently, they are simply mad.

Reggie people usually are what they are. Almost always anyways.

I'm sure there's a couple of nutter butter boys and girls out there but... More often than not I find its like bunches of people standing on a floor that's got a really wicked mosaic pattern inlayed into it. Lots of details, lots of patterns, that sort of thing. Now people being people will sort of cluster with the other folks they feel good with or think they can talk to so you start to get groups. In between the groups is a curtain that hides the other parts of the mosaic. So if you're standing on one side of the curtain it seems like you're looking at most of the patterns and probably feel like you got a good idea of what the whole thing must showing you even if you can't see it. Your mind starts to fill in the details you can't see. Hey, you even have other folks standing around you that are good with your ideas even if they don't agree or think you're concentrating too much on a certain area. The folks on the other side of the curtain are thinking same thing. Take it from an artist; neither side really has the picture.

If you want to pull the curtain, that's cool. You just got to make sure you're expanding your view not limiting it. Maybe we'll get a chance to talk sometime. Oh, and crazy with pain is usually simple but real no kidding madness never is.

Quote:

Originally posted by Origami:
You know, it would be facinating to have a conversation with you at some time.

I'm usually around except when I'm not.

In Havana you can find for me at Casa de Tarjetas.

Peace Ladies.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Man what?

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
Take it from an artist; neither side really has the picture.

Take it from a scientist; the only method of fully discovering the brilliant mosaic you've described is through the lens of scientific experimentation and discovery. While your hypothetical groups may cluster in their partitions, scratching at the earth as they try to understand the big picture, only the scientific method stands apart and above them all. It is only through science that we may ever understand the big picture. "Science is best defined as a careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence. What's left is magic. And it doesn't work."

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
If you want to pull the curtain, that's cool. You just got to make sure you're expanding your view not limiting it. Maybe we'll get a chance to talk sometime.

Maybe we shall, though I regret that Cuba is not on my itinerary anytime in the near future. Rumour has it that we caucasoids still aren't the most welcome demo in your area.

[Gypsy]

When I talk bout he city being alive, and the city I am talking about the people who live there and the people make the city go on.The people who see the good and bad, the people do the good and the bad. Everyone who lives there.

I do not think the buildings are alive but I am sure they have a few stories to tell.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
"Science is best defined as a careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence. What's left is magic. And it doesn't work."

Sounds like a righteous quote. Whoever said it was probably a really smart guy. You really should take it to heart. I'm not trying to bust on you but you're the one that came back talking trash to me because you've never heard a city's thoughts. I room with a guy that see tunnel connections everywhere and can step off the last step of the lobby stairway and take the next step in Beijing. You don't even want to know what gets sold on the black tech market in this place.

You're not talking about magic, Reggie. You're talking about what you're willing to consider and how you like to see the world. I'm good with that. What I hear and see, although its not really seeing the way most people mean it with lights and shit, tells me you're missing some of the broad strokes. But I'm still good with your thing being your thing.

Quote:

Rumour has it that we caucasoids still aren't the most welcome demo in your area.

Speak for yourself white girl.

Hey, there's always lots of rumors making the rounds Reggie. It's the Havana cops I'd be careful of more than anyone else. They're more for than against but even so I make the effort not to piss them off.

Not too much anyway.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy:
I do not think the buildings are alive but I am sure they have a few stories to tell.

Nah, I don't think buildings are alive either.

Hey weren't you about to start building temples or something?

Edite: my bad, the temple thing was someone else.

Peace Ladies.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
Sounds like a righteous quote. Whoever said it was probably a really smart guy. You really should take it to heart. I'm not trying to bust on you but you're the one that came back talking trash to me because you've never heard a city's thoughts.

Mind you, it isn't that I'm not open to new ideas. Far from it. The most sublime joy a scientist can know is to be proven wrong in the service of a greater understanding of the universe. But please understand, Tarot, when you started this diatribe, you opted for impishness and absurdity. If you want to discuss this thought of yours in terms of physics and reality, I'm all ears. It sounds like a fascinating and fantastical prospect, but all this talk of anthropomophising cities put me off from the beginning; it sounded childish.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
You're not talking about magic, Reggie. You're talking about what you're willing to consider and how you like to see the world.

I'm willing to consider anything, Norton. But let's start with a sensible hypothesis based on available data and start working our way towards a testable body of experimental data, shall we?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
It's the Havana cops I'd be careful of more than anyone else. They're more for than against but even so I make the effort not to piss them off.

Granted, but I would be somewhat out of place in your region, and I stick out enough already. Also, my means of self-defense that are sub-lethal are minute, and it is not my desire to be put into a position to grievously hurt somebody for attempting to hurt me.

[Tarot]

Diatribe? It's cool to learn new words and all but I'm not getting a clear connect on this one. I'm not bitter, abusive or ironic. I've got experience with sarcastic but usually only when a mite minion is laying out their trash. Mostly I just smile and walk away when that happens but I know how to snap off too. So diatribe don't seem to fit the occasion. I'm all over impish and absurd though. Sexy and charming even. But what does that have to do with hearing the dreaming thoughts of a city?

Reggie, I know as much about theoretical physics as you know about chroma aural and poly acrylic complex emulsions. I'm good with your thing being your thing but it would be nice to get a return favor on that. You're telling me if I can't explain, and justify, in technical terms you're comfortable with then something must be wrong with me. Is that really the message you want to be sending?

That comment about "reality" was a snub too

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

I'm willing to consider anything, Norton.

Is that a fact, Ralph?

I told you what I know; cities have identities and consciousness. They dream. I believe they even wake up to something like a conscious state but admitted I've never been there when I think it may have happened so I can't say much about it. You decided none of that fits your view of the way things work and skipped straight over experimental data to "Chris is a fucking lunatic."

What you wrote up in your post sounds very nice but its not really what happened, is it Reggie?

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

Granted, but I would be somewhat out of place in your region, and I stick out enough already. Also, my means of self-defense that are sub-lethal are minute, and it is not my desire to be put into a position to grievously hurt somebody for attempting to hurt me.

There's nothing wrong with sticking out Reg so long as you got something to compensate with. I use proactive karmic planning to follow the path of least violence. It seems to work for me.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
Reggie, I know as much about theoretical physics as you know about chroma aural and poly acrylic complex emulsions. I'm good with your thing being your thing but it would be nice to get a return favor on that.

This is about as diplomatic as I get, Tarot. The problem is that according to my view of the world, your "thing" exists only for you, which makes its practical relevance to me a virtual null set, akin to asking a child about his imaginary friend. Unless you can give me more than just "this is the way I believe", I'd just be humouring you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
You're telling me if I can't explain, and justify, in technical terms you're comfortable with then something must be wrong with me. Is that really the message you want to be sending?

What I am telling you is that when one endeavors to put forth an assertion about the objective state of the universe, one has accepted a burden of proof that, if cannot be reasonably satisfied, outside observers have no reason to believe said assertion. Frankly, I have no more reason to believe you than I do to believe in Bertrand Russel's china teapot orbiting the sun.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
I told you what I know; cities have identities and consciousness. They dream. I believe they even wake up to something like a conscious state but admitted I've never been there when I think it may have happened so I can't say much about it. You decided none of that fits your view of the way things work and skipped straight over experimental data to "Chris is a fucking lunatic."

I admit that I was dismissive at first, but I'd be equally as credulous of a man who told me there were radios in his teeth and that the government was replacing his albums with subliminal messages from Stavro Mueller Beta. "Extraordinary claims", Carl Sagan said, "require extraordinary evidence." Until you can provide said evidence, you are effectively asking me to play make-believe with you.

[Slattern]

Regina, did you know there are Novas that speak to insects and lower animals that detect intelligence far beyond what science gives them credit for? I understand giving short shrift to the claims of religious types. But when a Nova tells you something you just might accept that science hasn't yet reached a point where it can figure out what the Nova has done all on their lonesome.

[Regina Newcastle]

Accepted. That novas are in a unique position to experience heretofore undocumented natural phenomenon while simultaneously lacking the acumen or desire to adequately test those phenomenon is a well-documented fact, and as time goes on and scientists continue to enhance their understanding of some novas' unique capabilities and as more novas enter the field of science themselves, I'm sure that those nebulous areas of personal experience will be gradually diminished by the greater sphere of our understanding.

I'm willing to provisionally believe that there might be something to Tarot's claims, but he seems more interested in criticising the scientific method and indulging his seemingly childlike world view than clarifying his point or offering any evidence to support his claim. As a counterpoint to the fact that many novas can do things that we cannot yet measure, I would point out that just because someone is capable of doing things we cannot yet quantify, it doesn't necessarily mean they're telling the truth, or even sane.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Keep in mind also, that in line with Slattern's mention of Nova powers that cannot be replicated by science is the simple fact that science and technology may not have evolved far enough to explain a phenomenon.

An Enlightenment era scientist would have a difficult time accepting your claims that there are particles smaller than an atom, or particles smaller than the ones they've identified within an atom. Yet, if you were to demonstrate a particle accelerator to them, they may begin to understand. Likewise the Aristotelian model of the universe while technically not correct was based on the best idea of science that they had at that time. Centuries later, science was able to prove it wrong, but it required certain advances.

Look at the advances made just since 1998 when The Fireman erupted. We don't know what we'll know 18 years from now that will seem like childish imaginings now. Many Social Scientists would probably agree that cities have character. I'm sure most would agree with your scoffing of cities having a consciousness, that doesn't mean that science won't provide a way to prove or disprove Tarot's assertion in time.

[Regina Newcastle]

Certainly not, Lou Anne, and I agree with you heartily. All I mean to say is that, at present, with no corroborative data or any form of evidence outside of the anecdotal evidence of one individual, it would be foolish to not be sceptical about this claim or any claim like it. Tarot may be telling the absolute literal truth, but until or unless some form of data to support the notion is accessible, we have nothing to support this idea but the testimony of a lone individual, and, in science, anecdotal evidence is the one thing we have been shown time after time we certainly cannot believe.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
This is about as diplomatic as I get, Tarot.

Wow.

And people think I suck at diplomacy.

Okay. So can you describe the difference between a cautious attitude of questioning skeptism and just being insulting and bitchy?

I didn't ask you for a thing Reg. I pointed out something to Leliel. Everything else has pretty much been all about you and what you want to talk about. You can like me or not, believe me or not. It's okay. You're not the world's biggest asshole, I've already met him, and since you've been erupted for only about a hot minute I already know you got lots of new experiences coming your way.


PS
If you ever get over the white girl phobias you know where to find me.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
Okay. So can you describe the difference between a cautious attitude of questioning skeptism and just being insulting and bitchy?

If you ever get over the white girl phobias you know where to find me.

Your feelings seem awfully hurt for somebody with zero emotional investment in me, Tarot. I wonder why you care so much about how I feel about you or whether I think you're crazy or not.

That said, I feel as though I may have been misunderstood, and I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clearer. Much of what I've said to you throughout this conversation has been in the spirit of light hazing, meant to accompany a slightly mischievous smirk. While I don't take back any of my sentiments regarding the scientific method or the need for a little incredulity in the face of preposterous claims, I never meant to insult you, even at the beginning when I called you a "daft bastard". I had thought, from your rather mercurial nature, that you wouldn't take offense, but it appears as though I have done just that. It was my curse both as a baseline and now to not really have people get the joke; people always used to complain about how they didn't know when I was kidding, and it seems that hasn't changed. Must be my dry, British sense of humour. Again, I'm sorry, as it wasn't my intention to insult you, but rather to provoke you into a good-natured, cruel-spirited exchange of ideas.

And anyway, it's not so much a phobia as a prudent and justified reservation. But perhaps I'll stop on by when and if the funds become available. Unlike most novas, I am still a slave to baseline forms of transportation.

[Tarot]

You got all that from me telling the suckatude of your diplomatic skills? Reggie, you do suck at diplomacy. I happen to know the signs because I'm not so great at it either.

I don't know what's bugging you on the rest of this. I told you we're good and now you got your over-analyzing thing going on looking for hidden meanings? Puhleeze You're a smart white girl worried about the big bad island folk and think anything outside the physics of your grad class are fantasy. Its no big thing.

Let me know when you want to talk. We'll do it sometime over cuban spice coffee and these cool little pastry things they make down here.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
You got all that from me telling the suckatude of your diplomatic skills?

I got that from what a I perceived to be a somewhat boisterously saccharine persona calling me "bitchy". I wish I could say it was a uniquely American phenomenon that any woman who begs to question the logic of a man is a "bitch", but at least it has not reached the epidemic proportions that it appears to have across the pond. Tell me honestly; had I been a man, would you have called me a "dick" or an "asshole"? Or would you have put on your thinking cap and bothered to give the challenges I put before you a serious reply?

Doubtlessly you'll now protest that this has nothing to do with me being of the fairer sex. If that's so, why use the word "bitchy" when there are so many genderless words that would have fit the same definition?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
...and think anything outside the physics of your grad class are fantasy. Its no big thing.

Another subtle jab, playing the "college kid" card. Save it for the rubes, tarot. I don't need to qualify myself to you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarot:
Let me know when you want to talk. We'll do it sometime over cuban spice coffee and these cool little pastry things they make down here.

I do like "cool little pastry things", and I'll be the first to admit that traditional British cuisine leaves much to be desired. Perhaps it will be worth it just for the change in flavor, but again, time and money are both commodities at present.

[Cassandra Foster]

Turning back to the original topic of this thread....

Gypsy, civic involvement is a wonderful thing. That said, civic involvement with a lack of experience can be a complete and total disaster.

All things considered, I would recommend that you start, not by running for Mayor, but by either seeking appointment to the Planning Commission or, if you feel that you have enough of a support base, running for the City Council seat in your district. This will allow you to "get your feet wet" while still contributing to the direction that Oakland takes. You might even find that you can, in the long run, accomplish more through one of these positions than you could from the Mayor's seat.

I am not overly familiar with your background, Gypsy, but I would caution you to remember that you will want to have your various qualifications and the like in order before either seeking an appointment or an elected seat in the municipal government of a city the size of Oakland.

I hope that this has been of some assistance, and wish you and your city the best.

[Tarot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
Doubtlessly you'll now protest that this has nothing to do with me being of the fairer sex.

No it had a lot to do with you being a woman. Nothing to do with strong opinions or disagreement but everything to do with you being a woman that was insulting, patronizing and belittling but trying to play it off as something else. I thought you were being a nova class bitch. If there was a island of immortal women trained from birth in the ways of bitchness you probably wouldn't be their queen. But you would be the prime minister with portfolio sent out into man's world to teach other woman the secret ways of bitchness developed by your closed society of bitchy zelots. Oh and giving an example for lesser bitchy women to aspire to. The kind of a lofty pinacle of bitchness Max Parrish would have painted as the idealized bitch.

Sucking at diplomacy doesn't mean I can't be honest. It also doesn't mean you can play mind games thinking no ones going to notice. Seriously; what is this martyr thing you're into?

Now you're just rationalizing reasons to not come. I can think of five ways to get here, for free, just in the time it takes for me to reach for my poptarts and brush.

[Gypsy]

Foster, I will look into thing. I understand your points, and yes sometimes we try to run before we walk.

Tarot and Regina, please take your topic to another thread.