opnet [OpNet] What separates us.

[Hugin]

I just finished reading Ashnod's response to MissFortune on the 'What's in a Name?' thread. As usual, her argument is cognizent, clearly worded and, as far as I am concerned, irrefutable.

However, I am aware that many here will not accept her argument. They will focus on the tired cliches of emotional similarities and human childhoods. I thought about it for a moment and I think I realize a shortcoming to the position that Ashnod has made. Well, not a shortcoming to the position but perhaps to the presentation. She, and I, and others have made this claim, that Novas are not human, and have tended to speak in generalities. Novas ability to evolve, as a people. Novas possession of quantum manipulation, again, as a people. Perhaps some specifics might help.

Ashnod, if you would be willing to share some specifics about yourself. If others here would be willing to share the same. Perhaps we can use these specific examples of the general difference between Nova and human to illustrate the point.

I shall gladly go first. I won't use my intellect nor my skills as an example. Yes, I am much more capable of intellectual exercise than a baseline is, but that is merely a matter of degree. I shall also not refer to my multiconciousness. It could be argued, feebly, that a human schizophrenic duplicates that state.

I do have some differences though. When I concentrate, I am able to perceive the very building blocks of existence. I see the world in terms of the strings of energy that flow through everything. I do not see matter as the dull and lifeless solid that a human perceives. I see dancing threads, each intersection of defining the world in a completely unique way. Actually, 'see' is not the proper term. It is not even a visual phenomenon, more a state of understanding unlike anything that a human has ever been able to describe, let alone perceive. I can also detect within this net, this web of existence, weaknesses that are beyond physical perception. I can see these weaknesses and if necessary, exploit them.

My mind is not restricted to the container of my body. It reaches out, voraciously. It engages in an almost battle of wills with surrounding psyches, trying to exert dominance over its surroundings. Hence why I avoid the company of baselines.

These are just two minor examples of what seperates me from every single human on the planet. They can never hope to duplicate my state of being. Yes, we share some traits still. I still enjoy the taste of a ripe apple, but truly, so does a horse. Does this make me a horse?

I do not focus on the differences between myself and humanity so that I may hold myself above them. The fact is, I do not hold humanity in contempt, at least no more so than most of humanity holds itself in contempt. No, I focus on these differences so that I may better know myself. If I insist on seeing only that which I hold in common with humanity, I can never fulfill my potential.

Please, I would appreciate to hear other's examples.

[Fortune's Son]

My name is Chance.

In my own mind I am no god but I understand why the baselines see me as one. I smell their innermost desires in secretions measured in parts per millionths, read the descriptions of their heartfelt longings in the tiniest of gestures, and see it in the interplay of the impulses of their nervous system. On a related note I'll also know Buendida immediately if I ever meet him since I've been smelling him for years on other novas by their eufiber.

Physically the movements of the most accomplished gymnast or elegant ballerina at the height of their talented careers is the fumblings of an uncoordinated and clumsy infant in comparison. Prick me and I bleed as easily as steel. Wound me and my angry disapproval may stop a heart in mid beat.

To see me, to hear the sound of my voice or view my manner, is to like me. I am the single smiling student in a sea of featureless faces that the teacher concentrates on. I am the denied fantasy of repressed longings. I am the promise of ultimate release and satiation bordering on the religious. Even forewarned they want to like me, to garner my approval, to be in my company.

I have senses for which there is no name in any language of the world. Walls are as air to me, as are the plant fibers, synthetics and secretion of living creatures they clothes themselves in.

Lady Fortune smiles on me in ways that border on sheer magic and even your concepts of time, duration or cause and effect fail when I feel the need to move.

A god? I understand why the baselines, biochemically and psychologically, need/desire me to be one but I know better. The same applies to baselines and novas being the same; questioning reality is something I am familiar with. Arguing with reality is pointless.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
These are just two minor examples of what seperates me from every single human on the planet. They can never hope to duplicate my state of being. Yes, we share some traits still. I still enjoy the taste of a ripe apple, but truly, so does a horse. Does this make me a horse?

We don't harp on our differences with horses. It isn't our differences with baselines that cause problems, it is our similarities. If we were truely different, we wouldn't care.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
We don't harp on our differences with horses. It isn't our differences with baselines that cause problems, it is our similarities. If we were truely different, we wouldn't care.

I don't care. I am merely trying to assist others who are conflicted.

[Sandy Davis]

Imperfections.Are we any more prefect than what you call baselines?I do not think so.

We have greater poower to do great things, and greater needs to do wrose thing.We are given powers, but we are not given the anwsers as how to use it...

I have skin that would repleal bulllets, but I no longer feel the sun,even on the hotist of days.I can put my hand into a fire before I would feel it, and a hot bath is boiling,Does that make me wrose than a human, does that make better?

No,no, let me get to my point, novas are human in all wayys that mater, we suffer the same problems, just on another scale...So what iff it takes swoooord to o prick me, I stil do bleed.If you get cough uup in the details, you may losse the whole.

And last this, all life, no mater what it looks likes.From nova to human, to rat,cat, snake,and eagele, ever life maters.We may what some poeple may call "gods" but we are inn way better than them.

[Hugin]

Mr. Chance, I saw a 'little something' about you when we last met. Not trying to be nosy mind you, simple curiousity, that is all. Perhaps you might be willing to discuss your particular relationship with time?

If anything about you is completely beyond baseline human existence, I would name that trait above all others.

Of course, I understand that your career requires you to be discrete. I would never ask you to reveal that which makes you uncomfortable.

I thank you for your time.

[Fortune's Son]

Doc Troll, I like and respect you as a combatant and as a nova. If any of the following seems harsh don't feel singled out. You aren't the only one to feel this way, just the first to voice it, and my reply is directed to everyone.

Quote:

We don't harp on our differences with horses.

Try asking the question; why don't we harp on our differences with horses?

Because you don't care about either the similarities or differences with horses and neither do I. Because deep down and all the way to the reptile brainstem you know that you are different from a horse and consider the fact so very self evident that there's no reason to even talk about it. I could give a thousand and one similarities to a horse and the answer in response would still translate to, "But I'm not a horse as you can plainly see".

Quote:

It isn't our differences with baselines that cause problems, it is our similarities.

Okay, how so. These similarities... Are they the physical, the psychological or simply the outlook?

It can't be the physical because there are enough Taint-meisters out there in the world that look like something from an anime delirium to rock the baseline world. Check out the novas working the "distant projects" for DeVries like mining the ocean bottom for minerals and see if I'm lying to you. Or clone yourself seven or eight times and then tell me if I'm wrong.

If its outlook then, aside from any circle of life comraderie you feel with them, you're saying you can immediately emphathize with the concerns and cares of a bushman in the outback, a Chinese peasant in Taiwan or Nomad in the Serengetti. And no, I don't mean that on an intellectual "we all have basic drives" level. If that were true then baseline history would be a lot less bloody than it is.

So is it must be the psychological similarities, right? Of course everyone that varies from the "normal" is considered clinically insane whether or not they are functional, which means your choices are to be "human" or a nutter.

If I pulled this stunt in a poker game everybody at the table would scream cheat and you know it.

Quote:

If we were truely different, we wouldn't care.

Oh really? Doc, a lone wolf or even a pack will not attack a man unless they're starving and even then man is not the preferred choice of prey. Man as a group on the other hand will destroy that species any and all chances it gets. I'd call genocide caring at least a little but maybe we should look at why it happens.

Superstition? Maybe. Ignorance? A possibility though the information is out there and available to anyone that cares to acquire it. Another possibility is that Man destroys them because, aside from the individual humans that have a vested interest in seeing the species survive and possibly prosper, man as a group knows that if push comes to shove there is a possibility - no matter how slight- that a wolf will attack a man. So man kills them.

Utopia brought back hundreds of species from the brink but to do it they had to find places where man wouldn't feel threatened by the species even when there was no reason to feel threatened!

Come on, Doc! Weren't you the one that explained hyena behavior to me? Wolfs aren't the only thing man kills and some with even less justification than feeling threatened.

Sandy;

Everyone has an opinion but if you want me to value yours then you need to explain it to me. If you want to argue that you're just one of the girls then get your butt outta the forest you're wasting time in and go camp out in Central Park, New York City for a month. Or better yet, go back to where you're from and live with the family for a month.

In either case then you can come back here and tell me what you are and what you aren't. Otherwise I'm thinking you and your argument don't have a leg to stand on. You live apart for all of your "it will all work out" philosophy and I'm thinking there is a reason for it. A reason you don't want to explain because that would mean you would have to examine your own motivations.

And to be honest, I care what you think but I don't give a damn about your Auntie. If she's got something to say to me then she get on an opnet terminal and bring it on. Otherwise she can keep contemplating her belly button and not bother me.

Lastly,

Just to cut out the trash; for all of you that think watching kittens frolic is a productive long term pasttime or that this is all one big circle-of-life group hug, the next words out of your mouth better be a statement that you subsist completely on sunlight and happy thoughts.

Otherwise you are a hypocrit. And your "opinions" are nothing but rationalizations.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandy Davis- Miss-Fortune:
Imperfections.Are we any more prefect than what you call baselines?I do not think so.

We have greater poower to do great things, and greater needs to do wrose thing.We are given powers, but we are not given the anwsers as how to use it...

I have skin that would repleal bulllets, but I no longer feel the sun,even on the hotist of days.I can put my hand into a fire before I would feel it, and a hot bath is boiling,Does that make me wrose than a human, does that make better?

No,no, let me get to my point, novas are human in all wayys that mater, we suffer the same problems, just on another scale...So what iff it takes swoooord to o prick me, I stil do bleed.If you get cough uup in the details, you may losse the whole.

And last this, all life, no mater what it looks likes.From nova to human, to rat,cat, snake,and eagele, ever life maters.We may what some poeple may call "gods" but we are inn way better than them.

You are mistaking evolution and biology with enlightenment. The idea that we share similar "mental" traits is simply based on the fact that baselines and Novas are two sentient animals. Just because we are sentient doesn't make us related, any more than sentient broccoli would be related to baselines.

The capacity to feel emotion, self-worth, mortality, and complex-problem solving are simply inherent to being self-aware and sentient.

Baseline assume that gods will be something like the Judeo-Christian Yahweh or the Islamic Allah, or even Buddah.

This is an ASSUMPTION, since until the advent of Novas there was no documented proof of what someone like a god could be. There is no reason not to assume that Novas are not "gods," since a god/goddess is normally a term meant to describe a being of higher power. That doesn't mean that being is necessarily wise or enlightened.

Be wary of your assumptions and misconceptions. Most gods in theology and mythology are all very "human" as you would describe them, save for the singular "creation" figures.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

James Meehan noted:
Perhaps you might be willing to discuss your particular relationship with time?

I don't usually talk about it but that's only because talking about it results either in blanks stares or discomfort on the part of listeners. The people that this would concern already know about the most common benefit of I derive from it but they can't do anything about it. Bear with me as I lack your gift for verbal precision and don't have a great deal of practice explaining it.

You talked earlier about perceiving the world as strands of energy when you concentrate, by which I assume you are describing macro probability of quantum fluxuations.

For everybody else; Yeah, yeah, I read a book once. So sue me for being educated.

That "net" pattern you talked about, it changes right? From moment to moment? I see it differently, a lot differently, and not just when I concentrate.

It's...

For you time is duration. It's a measurement of "something" that passes in a linear fashion with only your perception of it altering but never the "something" itself. You can measure a side effect, the apparent passing of time, while noting the changes that take place as "time passes" , and see the world as proceeding from the advent of your awareness to the moment that awareness is extinguished. That's how you see it.

What would say if I told you that past, present and future were only intellectual concepts. That what you think you "perceive" is a sleight of hand of awareness caused by an inadaquate nervous system trying to comprehend something beyond its ability to process? That everything you believe about time and its passage is rationalization and sophistry. That at its root, all such concepts are little more than superstions based on ignorance?

What if I told you that you - and by this I mean everyone - were just another citizen in the kingdom of the blind? Although temporal manipulators are generally the worst of the lot. Or at least the two I've met were anyway.

Time isn't what you think it is. It is no river carrying you forward into the future. It isn't a barrier seperating what was from what is. It is a perception based, as I said, on an inadaquate nervous system.

At a Rashoud Facility one of the paraphysians observed what I could do and described it as accelerated neurological reflex, as if giving it a name could somehow bind it in terms he could understand and thereby comprehend. He was an fool, although a well educated one, and never thought to ask the most simplistic of questions. Questions like;

How does a nervous impulse travel faster than the speed allowed by the conducting medium?

How are the physics of motions and duration bypassed?

Why is what I am seeing not adhering to Newton's laws of themodynamics?

He'd given a name to what he saw and that was enough. He couldn't comprehend what he was seeing but he could comprehend the meaning behind the words he used to describe what he saw and that was enough for him. We parted company shortly thereafter but I'll always treasure the look on his face on my way out the door as he said, "That's inconceivable."

It was what I'd been trying to tell him all along.

To me, what you call time is only a perception and perception is alterable. Alter the perception and you alter the apparent reality. Beyond what you perceive is something else, something I call hypertime, although that's only a name I use speaking with those that don't perceive it. The deeper the insight I achieve into the perception of hypertime the more I can accomplish by your standards. While you're mired ignorance binds the rest of the planet I'm free.

I'll give you a couple of examples though.

1. According to both my DeVries file and that one Nimrod stole from the LA Rashoud Facility, I heal rapidly. That's a supposition based on an shallow observation of effect. The actual reality is that I regress the trauma. It's that simple. It drove our leading tech wizard up a wall until she stopped trying to chart non-existant cell growth and finally saw what she was looking at.

2. The so-called "Speedsters" and the tales of the few temporal manipulators are common enough that everybody has at least a shallow knowledge of what they can do, right? I've seen a couple of both groups in action and from my point of view its impressive to be able to apply energy to overcome inertia and twist motion dynamics but they're still only cheating the system. They pump energy into a single aspect to achieve an effect.

Me, I just leave it behind as an occassionally useful momentarily restrictive perception. I don't run across thousands of miles like the speedsters do but neither am I mired in their illusion of duration or cause and effect. I can't speed or slow temporal states like a temporal manipulator can but I ignore their best shots at affecting me and can see their "wonderous" ability as the simple sleight of energy that it is.

3. It took someone else to point this out to me but there's a good possibility that I'm functionally immortal from your point of view. That's difficult to prove since there's only one way to be certain but all indications are that there is no decay, no regeneration, only a steady state existence to my body. The only exception anyone's managed to realiably chart as a permanent change is in my node and brain chemistry.

There are other things but as you noted my current career requires being able to pull a surprise out once in a while.

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

Of course, Ashnod, by the logic you're using, you can consider anything a god. The Gods of Humanity have always been defined by Humanity.

As such, you can call a nova a God. By the same token, you can call a Horse a God, or a Toaster a God. In history, Horses have been gods (or at least mythological creatures), and if you send a Toaster back in time, those without understanding of the Toaster will consider the transformation of Bread into Toast something close to miraculous (in much the same way was the transmutation of water into wine by Jesus). We now know that Horses are merely useful animals, and that Toasting is a simple application of thermal energies.

Godhood is strictly a subjective concept, and as such requires the Assumptions that you dismiss. Advanced Technology can easily be considered Miraculous and/or magical, but there is nothing inherantly divine or infernal about it. Just as Quantum can. Incredible as we are, we are not Gods. We are merely beings that can do things that as yet defy Scientific Explanation (at least in the specifics, anyway).

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland:
Of course, Ashnod, by the logic you're using, you can consider anything a god. The Gods of Humanity have always been defined by Humanity.

As such, you can call a nova a God. By the same token, you can call a Horse a God, or a Toaster a God. In history, Horses have been gods (or at least mythological creatures), and if you send a Toaster back in time, those without understanding of the Toaster will consider the transformation of Bread into Toast something close to miraculous (in much the same way was the transmutation of water into wine by Jesus). We now know that Horses are merely useful animals, and that Toasting is a simple application of thermal energies.

Godhood is strictly a subjective concept, and as such requires the Assumptions that you dismiss. Advanced Technology can easily be considered Miraculous and/or magical, but there is nothing inherantly divine or infernal about it. Just as Quantum can. Incredible as we are, we are not Gods. We are merely beings that can do things that as yet defy Scientific Explanation (at least in the specifics, anyway).

That would require me to believe that I am a "god" as some definitions would label it. I dismiss no assumptions, merely point out that saying Novas are not gods because they are too "human" is not a valid argument. You're proving my point, Doctor, not invalidating it.

[Fortune's Son]

So you're in favor of giving the vote to a platypus or a squirrel then, Holland? They are sentient creatures afterall and with a vested interest in the certain issues regarding zoning of land and pollution ordinances.

A lesson an Elite learns very early is never to hand a weapon to an opponent. Have care in the razor you select for splitting a hair in an opponent's argument, Doctor. It will be used on your own.

[Fortune's Son]

How is that so many manage to invoke the double jepardy clause without even a twinge of guilt.

For instance;

"Gods are defined by humanity therefore you aren't a god rather only a human who happens to be a nova."

"But if I'm human and meet my own definition of godhood, and just to be fair those of some others, then I'm a god because as a representative of humanity I get to make that definition."

"No, because once you define yourself as a god then you are no longer human therefore my definition overrides yours and I say you're human."

"But as a human..."

Catch 22 anyone?

I'm not trying to lay a smack down on you, Holland but do you really care whether someone is a nova or a god or the result of the machinations of the alien space masters? The central issue is what baseline humanity see us as and I don't see the arguments persuading Joe Baseline.

As a matter of fact, I see all these arguments on the nay sayers simply being an attempt to influence the perceptions of other novas.

What are you all afraid of?

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
So you're in favor of giving the vote to a platypus or a squirrel then, Holland? They are sentient creatures afterall and with a vested interest in the certain issues regarding zoning of land and pollution ordinances.

If they are able, I don't see why not, although it can be said that platypuses and squirrels already have a vote in the form of the Conservation movement (not to mention Greenwar).

However, if you read the post again, that's not particularly close to the argument I was posting. I was merely stating that to consider one a god, you really need to have a definition, and to dismiss the only definitions we have (those of humanity) opens up the playing field just a touch too much for my tastes.

Quote:

Later posted by Jack Chance:
How is that so many manage to invoke the double jepardy clause without even a twinge of guilt.

For instance;

"Gods are defined by humanity therefore you aren't a god rather only a human who happens to be a nova."

"But if I'm human and meet my own definition of godhood, and just to be fair those of some others, then I'm a god because as a representative of humanity I get to make that definition."

"No, because once you define yourself as a god then you are no longer human therefore my definition overrides yours and I say you're human."

"But as a human..."

Catch 22 anyone?

You're making the assumption that one cannot be human and god at the same time. That's not technically true, depending on your definition. Humanity doesn't exclude godhood. I merely pointed out that Technology has no inherant "godness", and that taking that to it's logical extension, neither do Quantum Capabilities.

Then again, I'd take that view. I'm a devout Atheist.

Quote:

I'm not trying to lay a smack down on you, Holland but do you really care whether someone is a nova or a god or the result of the machinations of the alien space masters? The central issue is what baseline humanity see us as and I don't see the arguments persuading Joe Baseline.

Since when did I talk about alien space masters?

Oh, and I see plenty of arguments here that are persuading Joe Baseline. They just all happen to be, by your perceptions, flawed. That, of course, doesn't matter to Baseline humanity (or nova in/humanity, for that matter). The validity of a argument only mildly influences the chances of it's acceptance by humanity (How else do you explain the continued existence of Scientology, for instance?).

Quote:

As a matter of fact, I see all these arguments on the nay sayers simply being an attempt to influence the perceptions of other novas.

What are you all afraid of?

Me? Very little. High Tesla Magnetic fields. Falling Unconscious. The Rules of the Universe deciding to change themselves spontaneously (although that would be interesting to view). And, I suppose, the destruction of my connections to baseline society, because unlike many here, I still have those.

But then, I have to point out, is not our perceptions of the world what this whole debate is about? I would not be arguing if I did not think that my view of the world could be shared (if only in fragments) by those participating. And once I share that, then hasn't your perception of the world changed? You're seeing it, if only briefly and slightly, through my perspective.

You don't seem to realise that the society that we live in is designed for the influencing of other's perceptions. Each idea we hold alters our worldview slightly, and by sharing those ideas, we hope to alter the worldview of others.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Sydney Holland sez:
- If they are able, I don't see why not...
- However, if you read the post again, that's not particularly close to the argument I was posting.

Sid, that rippling effect you see beneath your intangible feet is called quicksand. As in your foundation is rapidly eroding.

On the contrary. It wasn't particularly close to the point you were trying to make but it is exactly the argument you were trying to make. I took your argument and the ramifications of perceptual definitions and put it to work for me. As I said, be careful of the weapons you hand your opponent.

Most would consider the question I asked to be ridiculous but is it anymore so than the manner you put it to work? By your own logic the answer to my question should be yes.

Quote:

You're making the assumption that one cannot be human and god at the same time.

Actually I see myself making the assumption that the question of god vs human is and always has been irrelevant except in how baselines see us.

And on a related note; remember what I do for a living, Holland. You don't have a world wide definition of "human" that's universally accepted as truth. You have legislation which is not the same. Ask the people that employ me, Vile Bill, Nimrod or others. They're special interests groups and however "nice" the hoped for outcome, these people in general would sell their own mothers down the river for the right cause. The people they send us out to play with aren't "human" because they don't care about a phrase in latin. At that moment "human" means "my folks" and anybody else has the same degree of humanity as an oak tree or rattle snake.

I for one no longer think it makes a difference if they instigate the act with a smile or a tear.

Quote:

Oh, and I see plenty of arguments here that are persuading Joe Baseline. They just all happen to be, by your perceptions, flawed.

Correction; whether I see them as flawed or not is not a pertinent point at this juncture. I see you trying to use logic and philosophy to mitigate what their brainstem and hormones are telling them. I see them unable, as a group, to transcend their own biology.

Your arguments of god vs only human are nothing more than logical constructs which to a person in the sweaty grip of a longing for me based only on my nature has the weight of somewhere between zero and nothing. They don't care if you're actually right although intellectually they may even believe you are.

Quote:

But then, I have to point out, is not our perceptions of the world what this whole debate is about?

Ah. So we are here for the same reason.

Quote:

You don't seem to realise that the society that we live in is designed for the influencing of other's perceptions.

Actually, I do. I just don't want to waste my time arguing speciously. Hence the reason I provided an arguably absurd example of your logic being applied to a situation wherein the realistic answer is counter-intuitive to the logic being applied.

And to be honest, there have been so many definitions of godhood through the centuries that the arugment of yes vs no is silly. The american-indian gods are nothing like the greco-roman gods but base a definition on them and you'll still get people screaming that you're not a god. I think it has nothing to do with definitions. Rather it ultimately comes down to arguing against the idea of a nova being a god because people are afraid that by allowing the designation of god, they are admitting novas aren't human.

That's what they fear.

It's also the reason I drew attention to the idea of it being a "catch-22" situation, although I regret leading you to believe it was solely targeted at you as a statement. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. Constructing definitions to preclude a counter argument doesn't make it true.

For all of your flaws, Sydney, both the ones you hold up in public and those you share with no one but yourself, you are no more like them than a representative of an alien species. The truly sad thing is that they've dreamed of meeting the unknown and now that they have they so desperately want to claim its not alien just a new type of human. They've been doing this assimilation crap all through their history and not in the nicest of ways. The question is what happens if we don't want to be assimilated .

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:

And to be honest, there have been so many definitions of godhood through the centuries that the arugment of yes vs no is silly. The american-indian gods are nothing like the greco-roman gods but base a definition on them and you'll still get people screaming that you're not a god. I think it has nothing to do with definitions. Rather it ultimately comes down to arguing against the idea of a nova being a god because people are afraid that by allowing the designation of god, they are admitting novas aren't human.

That's what they fear.

Beautifully said.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Ashnod:
Beautifully said.

I'm surprised by the notice but thank you.

And Sid?

I'm going to give you a paraphrased piece of advice Seven gave me. Get out. You're invulnerable to anything but extremely high tech weaponry and most quantum powers so use that.

Leave the Ivory Tower and go to Africa. Tag along with someone like Vile Bill who can explain it to you and just... look. It's going to be uglier than you can imagine but pretending that the nature and circumstances that lead to it, aren't real is foolish.

[Fortune's Son]

Computer glitch.

[Sandy Davis]

Did we forget that neerly all stories of goods start with a time befire humans.What I am saying, is the gods gave life to humans, not the other way around.

Were you not born to a human?Was your mother and father anything besides fleash and boold?Were you not anything but a "baseline" until you turned into a nova?Yes there is that gene that set you apart,but not everyone with that gene becomes a nova....

My views on novas as they are too human to trusted as gods.Unlike the faiths that had human like gods, we live in a time when there are at leat 7,000 of them,plus we live in a time where a man with little or no training can pull a triger, push a pllunger and kill a nova....If the world gives enough rope, we will hang our sleves if miss use it.And if we start acting like those human like gods,it is not a mater of if there is going to be truble,it's when.

As for what I think novas are, they are not gods.Too be honest,I spent a good year in ways to get rid of my powers,and still amm looking,butt the only answer I found has been death,and I will not kill myself.I fallow the book,that much.

[Apep]

So here we are in the same old argument once again. What I want to know is why some of you want so badly to prove that we are human? Why would you want to be part of that? Why do you refuse to let go? Is it so bad to be gods?

[Hugin]

Well, I tried. I tried to bring this discussion to someplace new, but no. I would like to point out at no point in my post did I claim to be a god or claim that novas are gods. I tried to give some specifics and it again devolved into an argument over semantics and claims of 'you don't understand what I'm saying'.

Please, we've all been down that road before. Obviously it is a dead end. MissFortune, if you outright refuse to use proper grammar or spelling, the very least you could attempt would be to stay on topic. Please address those issues that I was trying to bring up. If you wish to argue semantics and godhood, start your own thread. I apologize for the curt nature of my reply, I am simply tired of this.

[Apep]

Sorry, I noticed too. Umm...If anybody cares where I might be coming from well I try to explain a little.

I come from everywhere. If there is even the smallest shadow, I can see, hear, smell, feel, travel, through it. All darkness is linked to an abyss that only I can seem to access, my own personal Duat. I see things in light and dark, life and death, with an certain amount of the between.

When I look at one of us and see the pulse of quantum and then other life which appears so dim, how could I see us as a part of them? I can cut through a normal baselines will as easily as my claws cut through flesh or steel, they are brittle and weak, slow and blind.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Apep:


When I look at one of us and see the pulse of quantum and then other life which appears so dim, how could I see us as a part of them?

Fascinating, thank you, thank you very much. I see something very similar in the Thread that I perceive. Novas manipulate it, they are one of the few things that actually act upon it as opposed to being acted upon. Baselines are ignorant of the flow around them and it treats them in the same matter as it does a bannana or a chair.

So, Apep, both you and I are slapped in the face with differences every day. We cannot help but notice how apart from humanity we are.

Thank you. You cut to the point as quickly and effectively as you can rend steel.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

James Meehan:
Please, we've all been down that road before.

You're right.

I'm new and even I've had this discussion before. Time to stop talking about it and start doing something about it.

[Doutor da Reducao]

As a child growing up my pai often said, "Se você mantiver sua boca fechada, você won.t põe seu pé nele." If you keep your mouth shut, you won’t put your foot in it. In his own way papa was a wise man but what would the fun be in always doing the intelligent thing?

Senhor Prodigy I feel compelled to confess my tale may not further your purpose. I am nova yes but my talents are not those of the warrior or master of elements. Awakening to quantum brought many small gifts. A knowledge that should have taken decades of study, a certain fascination on the part of the fairer sex, a strong body and opportunities beyond imagination. Marvelous things, fantástico really, but alas storms to not appear at my command or objects when I wish for them.

I have control over the size of physical objects. It appears that I am in a rarified gathering in that the quality of it is beyond what most are capable of, as well I am somewhat adept in its use.

Certain industries are intrigued by the potential I bring in fields of computer chip manufacture and other technical endeavors but to be honest I bore easily of the mundane and move on after each project. There are certain playful possibilities that I find time to explore in my spare time.

Please accept my invitation to experience a small project I have been working on. I think you might enjoy the terrarium. The intercoolers for the arctic region have been problematic but the oceanic pacifica sector is nearly complete.

[Seven]

I've been quiet for a while 'cause I needed to think about this. It gave me an opportunity to see what you guys thought and see all sides of the argument. I believe I have learned something.

I am. Call me Nova, Aberrant, Freak, or God. None of it changes who I am. They are labels and a label only has as much power as I choose to give it. I am. Nothing more needs to be said.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Are we human? Probably not. Our brains are different enough that I'd go along with the idea that we are a different species. Are we people, I'd say yes. With exceptions; We love, we fear, we desire social interaction, etc. If we aren't human, then we are darn close.

Re: Enhanced/Different Senses.

This gives you a different perspective on the world. Great, but I don't have them. Does that make me any less a nova? Does being blind make someone not human?

Re: Isolation.

Yes, lots of people are uncomfortable around us. I personally am in an unusual situation in that I can turn my taint off and on without dorming. Yes, when I'm a big scary guy, people treat me like a big scary guy. Yes, it does get old. I remember similar things happening to me in high school because I was so smart and small. Discrimination is part of the human condition. Deal with it.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Are we human? Probably not. Our brains are different enough that I'd go along with the idea that we are a different species. Are we people, I'd say yes. With exceptions; We love, we fear, we desire social interaction, etc. If we aren't human, then we are darn close.

Re: Enhanced/Different Senses.
This gives you a different perspective on the world. Great, but I don't have them. Does that make me any less a nova? Does being blind make someone not human?

Quoting myself from another forum:

The loss of one sense intrinsic to the species in an INDIVIDUAL, ergo, becoming blind, deaf, or losing one's olfactory sense, does NOT equate to a thousands gaining a common ability absent in the majority, ergo quantum manipulation, that can be passed on from parent to child.

In the former case: losing a sense does not make one less human because the parameters of life are not changed. There are limitations, sometimes, depending on the severity of the loss, but that is it. Ergo, one is still able to effect the universe in the same ways the rest of baseline humanity can. Perceiving it becomes difficult, but the manipulation of it has not.

In the latter case: gaining an ability that allows one to manipulate the universe itself, even in tiny amounts, separates one from other animal life. That's just the way it is. Period. Once the reality becomes even SLIGHTLY dynamic for one, everything changes. The Nova can manipulate and perceive the universe in ways baseline humanity cannot. Novas are different. MORE than human.

You are not going to pass blindness or deafness on to your offspring. You can, and very likely will, pass the potential for eruption on to your offspring.


You are not less of a Nova for not having "enhanced senses." Your perspection of the universe and its dynamism is altered from that of the baseline species simply from having, as Prodigy labels it, quantum expression, and from the potential ongoing evolution possessing quantum expression entails. This is not something a baseline can achieve and it irrevocably separates us from them.

The ideas of static limitations and dynamic potential are different for Novas and baseline. No debate on our origins or insistence that the transhuman perspective is simply an excuse to "do as thou wishes" is going to change this.

[Walker]

Ah, the good old Nova versus Baseline arguement.

OK, here's a new spin on the old arguement. Since as long as humans remember they have had legends of people/sorcerors/demi-gods doing pretty much the same sort of thing that Nova's do.

Where do these dreams/myths come from? Have Nova's always walked amongst humans? If so, why should the butterfly curse the cattepillar?

Maybe we are simply the latest breed of an old line.

[Jager]

It is not that we are not human, but that we are different from each other as well. We are a divided, fratured species (or sub-species, if you will) and often are unable to relate to each other. We, as novas, often fall back into baseline forms of communications and relationships because that is one of the few commonalities most of us share.

Some of us are content in our lonliness, abandonment, or uniqueness and some of us are looking for another answer.

It is easy to see that we are "different", but difficult to think of that place that thinking like that leads us to. We come from a gregarious, social animal and it is natural to miss that aspect of our foundation. Now, we are unique in the universe, each and everyone of us. It is a frightening concept.

Peace and hope be with you all.