Jump to content

Aberrant RPG - Powers for Free?


archer

Recommended Posts

I wanted to start a topic about something I've disliked about the Aberrant system for a long time, but wasn't really clear to me until I started playing Mutants and Masterminds: lack of Power Stunts.

In the comics, you'll see a ton of one-off or rare effects that different characters pull out of their hats when dramatically appropriate. These effects are almost always based on theme, though sometimes by a thin thread.

Because right now I'm playing a speedster character, I had to ask BN about some of the different effects I've seen other speedsters use, and whether they were possible for Brandt to duplicate.

First one: Running real fast in a circle to create a whirlwind or vortex.

Second: Avoiding gravity's pull and running up or along vertical surfaces.

Third: Running across water.

Fourth: Vibrating fast enough to disperse personal molecules, allowing passage through solid objects.

Fifth: Touching an object and through intense vibration which matches the harmonics of the object, cause it to shatter or disintegrate.

Sixth: Moving just one limb at superspeed, allowing for a Mach X(x=specific value) punch or kick.

Seventh: Same as above, but instead using that superspeed momentum to throw on object at Mach X.

These are just the few that came to mind as I was typing, but I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting.

Now, the easy way to nix these Power Stunts is to point out that at least half of the effects are easily obtained by buying them as actual Powers. The superspeed punch as Claws, running up walls as Wall-Crawling, speed-created tornado as EA or EM techniques, etc.

But, then you run into more devious power uses that can either duplicate these effects or come realllllly close.

For example, on the vortex of air, BN said Brandt can't do it because he's covering too much distance between strides to affect a small enough area of air to create the effect. Essentially, he can't run in small enough circles to make it happen. Okay, I can deal with that, but that just brings more specific questions to mind.

How small a radius can Brandt manage? How do the characters in the comics manage it? At maximum speed, can Brandt manage a vortex from a larger area of air? How large? What about water? Using Fast Tasks, Brandt should be able to spin his arm fast enough to make at least a small whirlpool. If he can do it in water, he should be able to do it with air. (That's another stunt from Flash I just remembered, blowing stuff away from him by making dual whirlwinds with his arms spinning in front of him.)

Alright, but enough with the whirlwind. What about that hyperspeed punch or projectile? Yes, I know there are mechanics for Hyperspeed Strike and Slam already in the core book. But both of those specify that you have to be actually moving(running, flying, etc) for them to work. You can't just focus that speed into your arm or leg to smack someone while you're standing still. Why not?

Let's just say you can't, ST nixed it. Alright, cool. Can Brandt instead be holding an object or person, attune it or them, take off running and then just let go? Does their momentum stop, preventing them from harm? Or does their momentum continue, hurtling the object or person forward at the same velocity they just were?

In the same vein, what if Brandt decides to NOT attune someone or something. We know that objects(clothing, etc) will be damaged if Brandt doesn't attune them; what about people?

Running across water: the actual math on this one has been done in the real world using physics formula. It comes out to something like 110 kph needed for a human to deal with the surface tension of water, according to a lovely thread on NPrime about the subject.

As for destroying an object through vibration, well we know that's possible in the real world, but in Abby it gets ugly fast. Instead of using M-Str to smash that steel door into bits, Mr. Speedy can just press his hand against it and buzz it till it crumbles. If allowed for doors, why not people? In the comics that's obvious, no one at DC wants to show nice guy Wally disintegrating Captain Boomerang after he's had a bad day.

These are some of my thoughts. Input anyone?

Please don't limit yourself to just speedster stuff either, I know there are many, many other powers which have the same types of possiblity for power stunts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The quicky version: Don't think directly! Think Elemental Mastery!

The vortex? Your basic Imprison technique. A vortex that causes damage? Storm. Going up walls or across water? Propel! The multi-hand destroy? Blast. Bullet deflection? Shield. Going through an object? Either buy Density Decrease by itself, or con the ST into letting it be a tecnique.

Throwing an object, however, isn't a speedster trick. However, the multi-grab manuever (Fire! Wait, where did our weapons go?) is a bit more difficult; you need to grab the Magnetize technique, and apply to weapons, not just metal items.

As far as throwing people as you are running, that's your basic hyperspeed slam...and no, attune won't help them, unless you have enough Attune Background and want to...

If it helps...

FR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand that you can easily build a Speedster concept with Elemental Mastery, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is the environmental effects of certain powers allowing the ability to duplicate or come close to duplicating other, separate powers.

Hypermovement allows you to create a sonic boom, ala Thunderclap.

Why can't it make a tornado(Storm)?

Throwing an object, however, isn't a speedster trick.

No, but throwing an object at Mach 6 is a speedster trick.

However, the multi-grab manuever (Fire! Wait, where did our weapons go?) is a bit more difficult; you need to grab the Magnetize technique, and apply to weapons, not just metal items.

Fast Tasks can apply there. The question is whether it should.

As far as throwing people as you are running, that's your basic hyperspeed slam...and no, attune won't help them, unless you have enough Attune Background and want to...

Perhaps I didn't phrase that part right. It's not a Hyperspeed Slam(ramming into someone at high speed), and it's not throwing someone either. It's going really really fast while holding onto someone(while they are attuned) and then letting go(now they are no longer attuned.)

It's like one of those old G-Force tests with the chair on the rail, but without any sort of safety harness. The dude in the chair will just keep going forward, even after the chair hits the end of the track.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Admittedly, I'm thinking like a Champs player (where you need to buy each effect), but even in Marvel Supers (where Power Stunts come from) you need to spend Karma for each Power Stunt, and then buy it permanently. The same should apply here (TANSTAAFL and all that).

As an ST, I'd have no problem if you bought the powers as listed, but I would have a problem if you are trying to get the powers for free. But that's just me...

FR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're confusing power and theme.

People to have Hypermovement: Running very often have Elemental Anima: Air (etc).

But at the moment all you know how to do (i.e. all you've paid for) is Hypermovement.

Argh. No, I'm not confusing power and theme. I've been very clear about the fact that I understand how to build a speedster with EA: Air or EM: Air.

And to be fair Alex, no, Brandt has much more up his sleeve than just Hypermovement.

Let me be clear on another thing, too. I understand that as per the core rules and Errata, you can't do Power Stunts like I'm describing. You can do Power Maxes, which are similar, but don't have the effect I'm looking for.

Here's an example using your character Alex. Paul can turn into radiation, thus becoming invisble and able to fly. I can assume that you purchased Invisibility and Flight as part of the BM suite. There are certain side-effects of being radioactive in the real world that could be problematic in play.

For instance, is Paul just simply "Radiation", or is he composed of a certain type of radiation? While transformed, can Paul be picked up on sensors that detect radioactivity? Is his type of radiation harmful to anything, like certain organisms or objects?

Admittedly, I'm thinking like a Champs player (where you need to buy each effect), but even in Marvel Supers (where Power Stunts come from) you need to spend Karma for each Power Stunt, and then buy it permanently. The same should apply here (TANSTAAFL and all that).

I'm not familiar with Champions, but I am with Marvel. And in Marvel, you did have to spend Karma(similar to spending Willpower in Abby for a Powermax). But, you didn't have to purchase the actual Power Stunt until you'd used it three times, and even then, the cost of the Power Stunt purchased was significantly less than buying a whole new power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archer: Let me be clear on another thing, too. I understand that as per the core rules and Errata, you can't do Power Stunts like I'm describing. You can do Power Maxes, which are similar, but don't have the effect I'm looking for.

OK, so other than power for nothing, what is the effect you are looking for? Powermax Mega-Dex? Some of the effects you are looking for are described by "elemental anima: Air" (wirlwind, running on water, up walls, etc). Some of it is pure theme (define your Mega-Strength attack to work by vibrating molecules). Some is already covered (Hyperspeed Strike). Most of the rest are actual powers (Rapid Strike, Density Decrease).

Archer: Here's an example using your character Alex. Paul can turn into radiation, thus becoming invisble and able to fly. I can assume that you purchased Invisibility and Flight as part of the BM suite.

Yep.

Archer: ...is Paul just simply "Radiation", or is he composed of a certain type of radiation?

I was thinking high end electromagnetic (i.e. cosmic or gamma), but there's been no reason to define this.

Archer: While transformed, can Paul be picked up on sensors that detect radioactivity?

I considered this, perhaps trading a vulnerability to this in exchange for not having a smell, but there are no mechanics for it. Latter I also realized that since he is made of radiation, he probably *doesn't* show up on radiation detectors. The problem with radiation detectors is they are passive (i.e. they have a range of touch). They aren't like radar where you send out beams and wait for the reflection, radiation detectors simply wait for radiation to hit them. Normally that isn't an issue since radiation goes and finds them. But while Paul is made of radiation he doesn't radiate radiation (that would be immolate or that taint thing he got during overclocked.).

In theory Paul could stand right next to a radiation detector and as long as he wasn't touching it wouldn't be able to see him.

Archer: Is his type of radiation harmful to anything, like certain organisms or objects?

Again, not actually radiating radiation deals with most of this, and doing Lethal damage in HTH combat deals with the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I can see where Archer is coming from here. It's not about buying the appropriate powers (such as Elemental Mastery or whatever) to gain all the effects and abilities that should come from variations on a single power, but actually making all those effects and variations come from that single power.

For example: take a character who's only power is Teleportation. At first he can do all the things that a Teleporter can do (basically ending up being able to the whole Nightcrawler thing), but he wants to develop that power further and gain abilities other than simple teleports. He wants to get Hypermovement, and his rational is that he learns how to teleport just a few inches, but dozens or even hundreds of times a second, so that subjectively he appears to be moving at Hypermovement speeds.

Later on he wants to gain the ability to pass through solid abjects without just dissappearing and reappearing. So he buy Density Decrease as a Teleportation technique with the rational that he is now able to teleport his body hundreds or even thousands of times a second; effectively his molecular structure is absent so often each second that normal matter simply passes through him.

Of course, he could always just buy Hypermovement or Density Decrease and specify that this is how they work, but isn't it just more elegant to allow this particular type of Hypermovement or Density Decrease to be bought as a technique of Teleportation? I'm not suggesting that this be a way of getting free or cheap powers, rather that the player be allowed to develop unique refinements on the powers that he has: it makes the character much more interesting (the GM can always sepcify that the cost of buying these refined powers should be equivalent to buying the full power, or even build the refinement using the weakness rules in APG).

JC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archer: Let me be clear on another thing, too. I understand that as per the core rules and Errata, you can't do Power Stunts like I'm describing. You can do Power Maxes, which are similar, but don't have the effect I'm looking for.

OK, so other than power for nothing, what is the effect you are looking for? Powermax Mega-Dex? Some of the effects you are looking for are described by "elemental anima: Air" (wirlwind, running on water, up walls, etc). Some of it is pure theme (define your Mega-Strength attack to work by vibrating molecules). Some is already covered (Hyperspeed Strike). Most of the rest are actual powers (Rapid Strike, Density Decrease).

Thank you so much asking. Seriously. Basically what I'm looking for is a definitive answer on where effect ends and powers begin.

I'm fairly sure we can all agree that when Brandt runs real fast, he's displacing air. Hypermovement's sonic boom supports that idea. And the special effect of a puff of wind when he leaves the room has never been questioned. So why can't he use that air displacement to his advantage? We've all seen the bit in comics and movies where the superfast guy takes off and papers get blown everywhere because there's a backblast of wind. Is that allowed, per the rules? It's still a Storm effect, albeit a very tiny one. Where's the line?

Also, as far as I know, Brandt can run on water. I'm made allusions to it multiple times in IC posts, without anyone saying "You can't do that." Brandt does it ICly so he can go full speed without tearing up the countryside. Have I been breaking the rules this whole time, unintentionally?

Then we get into nuisance things. Brandt can type superfast. Does the friction generated from his fingers damage the keyboard? On cutting vegetables, does the friction between the blade and veggies heat the metal of the knife sufficiently to deform it or ruin the heat treat?

I honestly don't know the answers to these.

I think I can see where Archer is coming from here. It's not about buying the appropriate powers (such as Elemental Mastery or whatever) to gain all the effects and abilities that should come from variations on a single power, but actually making all those effects and variations come from that single power.

YES!!! Well said, sir.

Of course, he could always just buy Hypermovement or Density Decrease and specify that this is how they work, but isn't it just more elegant to allow this particular type of Hypermovement or Density Decrease to be bought as a technique of Teleportation? I'm not suggesting that this be a way of getting free or cheap powers, rather that the player be allowed to develop unique refinements on the powers that he has: it makes the character much more interesting (the GM can always sepcify that the cost of buying these refined powers should be equivalent to buying the full power, or even build the refinement using the weakness rules in APG).

JC

The elegance(what a great descriptor) is exactly what I'm talking about. I know it's just semantics, but it makes the character so much cooler that way. And taking Weakness on said techniques is something that would be appropriate in many cases. "If Hypermovement is nullified, then none of the techniques based off the original power work.", would be a good example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archer: Also, as far as I know, Brandt can run on water. I'm made allusions to it multiple times in IC posts, without anyone saying "You can't do that."

Not a fair thing to say. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but the characters have no way to evaluate that statement and for all the players know, you can.

Speaking of which I've seen threads about the speed needed to do that.

Archer:Then we get into nuisance things. Brandt can type superfast. Does the friction generated from his fingers damage the keyboard? On cutting vegetables, does the friction between the blade and veggies heat the metal of the knife sufficiently to deform it or ruin the heat treat?

Not unless you have taint. FastTasks is similar to mega-strength's ability to pick things up without wrecking them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archer: Also, as far as I know, Brandt can run on water. I'm made allusions to it multiple times in IC posts, without anyone saying "You can't do that."

Not a fair thing to say. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but the characters have no way to evaluate that statement and for all the players know, you can.

Speaking of which I've seen threads about the speed needed to do that.

Good point, that came out differently written than it did in my head. What I meant was, ICly, Brandt has run across water, and I've made that clear in more than one IC post. No one has yet to OOCly question Brandt's ability to run across water. My apologies for sounding like a jerk on that one.

Archer:Then we get into nuisance things. Brandt can type superfast. Does the friction generated from his fingers damage the keyboard? On cutting vegetables, does the friction between the blade and veggies heat the metal of the knife sufficiently to deform it or ruin the heat treat?

Not unless you have taint. FastTasks is similar to mega-strength's ability to pick things up without wrecking them.

Another excellent point on how Taint would affect that sort of thing. That helps clear it up for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No one has yet to OOCly question Brandt's ability to run across water.
Ummm... I almost hate to say it, but it almost sounds like a guilty consconce there.

Should we be questioning this?

AFAICT, game rules give this ability if you are fast enough (i.e. if you have enough dots in Hypermovement) or if you have the "Extra Mode" extra (i.e. hyper swimming).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you so much asking. Seriously. Basically what I'm looking for is a definitive answer on where effect ends and powers begin.

The answer is when it becomes a new effect, or when it actually does something.

The blast of air as he takes off is merely a special effect; it's neat, it adds color, but it doesn't really do anything. However, if you want to use it to do something, such as cause people to fly backward, that's something different.

The ability to run across water or up walls isn't a major issue; if you just wanted to cross a pond or go up a few stories, I wouldn't even stress about it, as long as you had enough speed. However, if you wanted to run across Lake Superior or go up a few dozen stories, then it becomes a new problem.

[Of course, if this was part of the character concept to begin with, I'd bap you in the back of the head, NCIS: Gibbs-style; any good supers player knows you buy Flight (limitation: touching a surface) to do that. Think about it.]

You need to realize that most speedster characters had to be around a while before they could do all that you wanted to do; most speedsters have been around for decades. Flash must have had several thousand XP saved up. Even Bart Allen has at least a few hundred, and he's relatively new to the game. Meaning, of course, that what you see as "power stunts" are things that the comic book speedsters have actually bought as full powers. Just as a sidenote, but one worth noting.

That said, the easiest way, in Abby, to do what you want to do is treat it as a suite power rather than straight running, with Hyperspeed also bought up, not to mention certain Mega-Dex/Mega-Wits enhancements. The key here is that you're trying to do most of these things on a regular basis, and three powers (EA/Flight/Hyperspeed) isn't really that expensive, especially when you realize that most characters have a number of powers.

Also, by defining as it an EA, you can pull off virtually anything you want, especially if it is a one-time effect (keep in mind that you can technically define ANY Level 1 or 2 power as part of the EA). So, if you want to use Density Decrease (a Level 2 power), you can (and, gee, ever notice how much it seems to take out of the Flash? Looks like x2 cost at +1 DN to me ::tongue ). So, by using an EA, you can do your power stunts, as well as having a selection of mastered abilities. How is this not what you are shooting for?

But that's just me...

Oh, and here's something for you. Hee. Enjoy!

FR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a ST, here would be my take on using Hypermovement to use the Storm technique (running in a circle quickly):

Your character can't perform the maneuver because he just can't seem to get it right. He's tried a few times and there has been marginal success (papers fly around, people get knocked over, etc.) but nothing that causes harm and nothing that blows people away in the manner you desire. Perhaps with more training (AKA experience points) you'll be able to apply it in a useful way.

Basically, your character can't do them just yet. Most likely his own mind is limiting him. He's applying himself, and that's a good thing, but he's just not there yet. More time spent perfecting the maneuver (Storm, as a level 2 power, at one dot) will allow you to utilize it.

As for the "whirling hands" thing...that would be Quantum Bolt (Bashing) or the Blast technique of EA/EM. Or even Telekinesis! Just take a lot of weaknesses to make it fit in with how it works.

As for the vibrating hands thing...like before, with enough training, you could do it. Maybe for now all you can do is Fast Tasks, but apply yourself long enough and it could be Quantum Bolt (Area/Explosion) or Disintegration (Area/Explosion) (either one with weaknesses to reduce the range to Touch, and reduce the level down by one). Or perhaps Claws. It's a level 1 power, not too expensive...

It all comes down to practice. Your character could really do anything...he could learn Shapeshift or Warp, as long as he understood Quantum correctly. He just needs to practice and apply himself. He may know deep down inside that he can do these things since he can use Hypermovement and Fast Tasks, and it would seem logical, but his power just hasn't reached that level yet.

As for the Hypermovement + Attunement 5 and then letting go of someone...they fly, then land. Or hit something at a high speed. Use the Hypermovement dice as a Might dice pool to toss the character? Of course, the really simple answer is to take Mega-Strength, with Thunderclap. The Thunderclap would be an obvious extrapolation of your character's abilties, and the Mega-Strength itself could stem from the same origins; your character's melee attacks ae gained extra damage due to the speed you operate at. This could also be represented by Rapid Strike and Claws, but Mega-Strength doesn't cost quantum points..

And how about this? You said that these would all be linked to your Hypermovement abilties, right? As a weakness for all of the powers, have them all turn off if one is turned off. So if Disrupt is used on your Hypermovement, it also turns off your Storm (running in circles), Blast (spinning hands), Claws (vibrating hands), Density Decrease (vibrating yourself through solid objects), Disintegration (vibrating things apart), etc. If any of the powers are penalized, they all are, since they are all extrapolations of the same thing.

Of course...you could just take Momentum Control (from the Player's Guide). It sounds exactly like what you want. You can add in Storm, Blast, Flight/Movement, etc. Unless you can't effect others yet?

Game mechanics aren't my strong point...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I would argue that the simplest way to get these techniques would be to work out new enhancements for your attributes with the ST. If Brandt isn't dexterous enough to run in a tight enough circle to create a whirlwind, work out a Mega-Dex enhancement that allows him to spin so quickly in a small area that he can create a whirlwind. Make it basically thunderclap, but with a stun attack instead of damage. Same with running up walls, as that would require a lot of balance and coordination as well as speed from the character. Some of the others may require a Mega-Str extra instead.

The other possibility I see is making Hypermovement a suite power (giving it extra techniques should push the level up by at least one). That way you can have a whirlwind technique, a vibrating for damage technique, a vibrating through walls technique, etc. They may not be as powerful or versatile as their corresponding powers (stun attack, Q-bolt or similar, density decrease, etc.) but you get them all within the same power.

Aberrant does leave room for creating new powers and modifying existing ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Being an avid fan of the (Advanced version) Marvel Super Heroes RPG, I can feel and understand your pain Archer. There are some things that the ST system was just not designed to do well...For a supers game of Abbies scale it ends up being mostly cobbled together as well all know.

,,

However, it remains very versatile, if you have an ST who will allow you to come up with new extras enhancements or powers. With Esteban I wanted his perception and thus conaciousness to have been permanently altered by his eruption. While adding extras to Mega-Attributes is not covered in the core rules, I was able to make a case for the spirit of an extra so he let me buy his Mega-Perception as a Level 3 cost (rather thanthe usual level 2 for M-Atts) to make his enhancements permanent.

,,

I suggest something similar...by applying an extra to hypermovement and calling it a L3 Hypermovement suite, you can add it techniques to your liking and be able to stunt the ones you haven't paid for yet...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel your pain Archer. I've played Marvel and Champions, hell even heroes unlimited. In most games a few things apply. I don't have a HUGE experience ammount with Aberrant, but I have not seen TOO much of a difference other than the Karma system in Marvel. I would think a lot comes down to storyteller flexibillity. If it makes sense...why the hell not. I mean as a hypermovement character, doesn't breaking the sound barrier in a city like destroy half of it? That aside, it sort of goes without saying that with any given power you have both self immunity and the abillity to use it properly. If you run super fast...you can see fast enough to turn in time without having to buy a power to simulate that...for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...