opnet [OpNet] Cash

[Apep]

Because the majority of you around here lately seem to be elites, maybe you can answer me a curiosity.

So many of you seem to be worried about funds lately and I just don't understand why you feel like you need them? It seems that you let baseline currency rule your life and it just doesn't make sense to me.

I understand that there is a thrill with a lot of jobs an elite might accept, that I can understand. But why do you need so much money? What can you possibly buy with money that you can't get for yourself? Why is it so important to you?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Apep:
So many of you seem to be worried about funds lately and I just don't understand why you feel like you need them? It seems that you let baseline currency rule your life and it just doesn't make sense to me.

Because my current net worth is a negative 6 digit number. I've been living off of other people's charity (at first PU's, more recently DeVries) since I erupted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Apep:
...But why do you need so much money? What can you possibly buy with money that you can't get for yourself? Why is it so important to you?

I need to eat. Does "get for myself" mean going to a McDonalds and telling the service guy that I'll rip his head off if he doesn't give me food? Should I take up farming? If I deal with farming type novas won't they ask for money?

[ 10-16-2002: Message edited by: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith ]

[Vile Bill]

Well HoneyBunny, I gots a load o reasons for demanding the Long Green.

First, some damn respect. ViaSoft wants me to bust up a buncha protesters? They lay down the cash, lots of it. They call me Mr. Vile and they write a check with a buncha zeros. You work cheap, you are cheap. That's what my momma and daddy told me.

Second, I like the life I live. I want girls, I want booze, I want good food and I want drugs. Lotsa fuckin drugs. It's tribute.

Yeah, I could walk downtown, pick some dealer up by his heels and beat the shit out of him and take his stash. Now theres one less dealer. And, the other ones run when they see me. Now I gotta spend time hunting dealers when all I used to have to do was give one a call and tell him to get his skinny ass up here.

Same with the women. I flash the cash, they come across with the gash. I don't wanna have to spend time showin off and collecting myself a harem. Then I gotta spend time makin sure that guys like Tank and Gorehound don't try and walk off with them.

Food? I can't cook for shit. What, now I gotta go and grab me some Iron Chef and beat his ass till he is willin to serve me? Shit, now I gotta steal food, have him cook it, make sure I steal enough for all my ladies, my cook, the guy I have clean my place and shit like that.

Fuck it all. I'm a WarGod honey. I fight cuz I like it. I get money because I want it. I don't wanna complicated life where I gotta get everything myself. I just throw the cash at the little people and let them scramble.

[Fortune's Son]

A really good question. The short answer is that it means so much to the zips. But you wanted to know why I would place value on it, right?

First its a way of keeping score and counting coupe in the games. Whether playing the markets, manuevering against another bidder at an auction, destabilizing a country, staring down an opponent over cards, affording to bring a railgun to a fight with a node-spark that thought a knife was going to be good enough, snaking a contract that I want... the games are played and money is one way of keeping score.

Along with that it's an enticement to the game for people that need a mutually agreeable stake to play for. Stryker wouldn't give me the time of day even though we work for the same company. But put a million dollars under his nose and he'll play chess, poker or blackjack just like anyone else. And while he's concentrating on the money I'm learning more about how he thinks and approaches problems. Call it a tactical simulation.

Besides, screw the moral victories and warm fuzzies. I want them to know they went against me and lost without feeling the moral imperative to kill each and everyone of them to drive the point home.

Secondly, its a filter. Widows, orphans, dictators on a budget, charitable organizations, left wing extremists, right wing extremists, fascists, democrats, republicans, kings, queens, potentates and other nutters don't come knocking on my door unless they can meet the ante. Or unless they have a powerful enough motivation to try even believing I'll turn them down. Either way it cuts down on the happy little zips that clamor for attention believing I can solve all their problems or would want to.

Thirdly, its a tool for changing my environment. Sure a node is a better one but unlike Jager or Quantum Promise, I'm not really a god. Your worst nightmare come to life in the right circumstance, maybe, but that's far short of omnipotence. I don't live for the creature comforts and the "good life" but there are things I like to do that require either a great deal of work on my part or just a little money to bring the mountain to mohammed.

So what's the bottom line?

Someone like Preston that can't stand the ground that I walk on will pucker up and lay a wet one on my butt while smiling for the cameras under orders from his superiors when there's an honorarium or a donation on the line. Maybe that will get the point across to him since nothing else got through. Chalk it up to my being petty if you prefer.

Utopia crows about "almost" abolishing the child prostitution in Thailand but its my money the funds an orphanage school here or there and gives them real options for the future. Consider it an investment in a resource if you like.

People that would fight to their dying breath to hold on to a plot of dirt against an invader move out tomorrow when the package is pretty enough and presented in the right way. Maybe I just like that view of the sunset.

I'm fast but I can't be everywhere at once. Money gives me options and alternatives. Which in a long round about way is why I don't do wetwork. If I bring death to your doorstep it may be for many reasons but it won't be for money. Money is a means to an end but its not the only one.

[ 10-16-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Sakurako Hino]

And no money, no Ampwells. 'nuff said.

Hey, try getting some food just on good looks. Ever since the humans thought of using paper or objects to represent fair value, money has been with us.

I don't buy the "money is the root of all evil" line. Sometimes money does good things as well. It is just an object, nothing more. It is only how it is used that makes it evil or good. The same as what we do with our talent and ability.

I don't mind having some spare Yen to line wallet once in a while. Not to mention, it keeps my Anime and Manga collections extra fat. Hey, every girl gotsta have a hobby.

Not to mention all the friggin expansions and updates they release for DnD. Seesh!

Hmmm, high stakes dungeon crawl, winner take all. Heh, that's an idea for a day off.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Sakurako pondered:
Hmmm, high stakes dungeon crawl, winner take all. Heh, that's an idea for a day off.

LNSE what are you gonna find to populate the dungeons with that's nastier than us?

[Vile Bill]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
LNSE what are you gonna find to populate the dungeons with that's nastier than us?

ME

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vile Bill:
ME

Proving once again that for every job there is a price and every price there is a man.

[Apep]

I guess I got the answers I would expect.

By getting things yourself, I don't mean resorting to violence and taking what someone else has already worked hard for. Sure sometimes that can be fun but it really just causes more trouble than it's worth. Then again, that trouble is sometimes where the fun is.... I guess I mean why not live outside of it completely. But as so many of you have stated in one way or another, you definatly aren't ready for such a thing. You will continue to be what you are so long as you dwell within it.

It's not an easy thing to do, so many of us want to continue living as we do, and conforming to what has already been laid before us can be comfortable. I guess I just want something more for us.

Oh and Endeavor, if you need some real monsters, why don't you really up the stakes, my friends would love to play with yours.

[Fortune's Son]

Maybe.

Then again, maybe you're seeing the opening moves a much larger game. I haven't been at this as long as you have, no where near as long as Jager, but stick around.

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

[ 10-16-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Apep]

they say patience is a virtue, one I definately need to work on.

[Sakurako Hino]

Hey...

I don't run around in steam tunnels with plastic weapons. Sorry, old gamer joke.

Hmmm, this does sound very interesting. Though I don't think of it as a game of chess. More like poker. And the stakes could never be higher.

After all, when you play at being an elite, the ante is your corporeal functions. Trust me, I don't care how big a WarGod you are, there is always someone bigger to knock you out of the box.

A little something Anna told me.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Upon further consideration, I'll answer your question with one of my own.

What do Teragen economics and economic policy consist of?

From some of your comments, I get the feeling that you don't use money. Does that mean the Teragen is (or ideally would be) run as sort of an autonomous collective or commune? (Guess who was briefly an econ major as an undergrad.)

I realize that many novas can be truely independant of society (don't need to eat etc). I also realize that for many novas money is more of a tool than a need (Prodigy comes to mind). But for the rest of us (I assume the majority), if you don't want to use money, what do you offer to replace it?

[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Sakurako reported:
I don't care how big a WarGod you are, there is always someone bigger to knock you out of the box

*sigh*

Annie does say shit like that but you're only hearing half the message.

Look; Totentanz moves unseen like the wind, faster than a cheetah and you CANNOT rattle him. He can't be bought off and couldn't define mercy with a hardcopy dictionary in both hands. So when he comes after the baseline you've agreed to protect, keeping Joe Zip alive and well means taking your skills to a whole new level. It doesn't come down to who is faster because that's definitely 'Tanz. It doesn't come down to who sees who first because, HELLO, 'Tanz is invisible. You play by 'Tanz's rules and you're going to get your ass kicked. Hard.

When I go up against someone like Totentanz or Jager or Apep or any of a thousand other gods the odds are always against me no matter how much trash I talk. But if you can't dance on the edge of the knife then you're crippled. If you can't live in the hot zone then you're dead already. The first opponent you have to beat is the one in your skull.

First you put the fear aside. Then you believe in the possibility of the impossible. Finally you make it their reality.

Kids; don't try this at home.



When the shit's coming at you from five different directions, the odds against you are stacked so high that even Murphy's written the whole affair off as over-kill and it looks like you've got just enough time to draw a single breath before the world drops on top of your... That's when you know you're alive.

[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Vile Bill]

'Kay Apepe honey, you've done peeked mah curiousity. What the hell do you want us to do?

Here's what I'm gettin.

Don't live like the crunchies. Don't live in a house, don't eat food, don't do drugs, don't party, don't have a job, don't pay taxes, don't vote, don't go shopping, don't watch OpNet, don't do a buncha shit.

Do something else.

Well....what?

What kinda life are you talking about? What should I do? I thought the whole Terat thing was do whatcha wanna. We are novas and only we know what we oughta do. Now, you mebbe not have noticed, but I ain't a fucking philosopher. I don't wanna act like Ashnod and just pop up and try to clue people in on the Big Truth. I'd suck at it. I ain't stupid, but shit, I ain't smart neither. What's a guy like me supposed to do in your 'don't do what you used to do' kind of world?

I'm fuckin lost.

[Apep]

It has occured to me that maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I think I might actually have begun to share my mothers vision of seperation, then intigration.

Troll,

I can't really answer your questions without sounding like a dumbass. I don't know the first thing about economics. Maybe those questions should be directed towards Ashnod or Prodigy. I wasn't schooled in these areas.

Bill sweetie,

Never live like a crunchie! I live in a house(sort of), I love to eat, I do drugs(if I can get them to affect me), I party, I don't have a job, I don't pay taxes, I don't vote, shopping is always an interesting experience, I watch the opnet, I do a bunch of shit. Yes, do what you want. But while you're doing it consider what exactly it is you are doing. Things are never going to change for us if we keep living in their world. I realize that most novas are perfectly happy living there. I just think that we will continue to be like them unless we are without them. I'm not a philosopher, and I'm not really smart either. I guess it's good if your lost, that's the first step in finding yourself.

I'm not sure if this is what I had intended with this topic. I really just didn't understand this lust for cash that you all seem to have. I never had anything, now that I could if I wanted, I still don't have the desire to overindulge myself. I guess I just find some of you interesting and wanted to know why this was so important to you when it's not at all important to me. It's just another thing that roots us into their society when we need to start working on having our own.

[Sakurako Hino]

Jack: I hear ya. She probably said that to make ME put my ego in check. Mission Accomplished. I don't attest myself to be the best, yet. And if I EVER have Totentanz as an opponent, I might as well let him beat me, because I can't beat him, and I can't accomplish my contract. And I just couldn't live with myself then. Of course, in the coming weeks, that may change. There are always flaws in the armor. No matter how good you think you are, you're potential is always higher than what you think it is. I just hope Mr. Totentanz won't be sending me to visit my ancestors. Although I could say I was sent by the best.

Question: I sit possible that while one DeVries Elite (Which I'll refer to as Elite "A") is contracted by someone, another DeVries Elite (Elite "B") could be looking for that client who has the contract for Elite A? What Happens? That is the worst case scenario that is floating in my young Demi-WarGod mind.

[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: Sakurako 'Endeavor' Hino ]

[Jordan]

First off Apep, not everyone here has a lust for cash. That's a generalizing stereotype and it's not a fair assesment. Kind of like calling all Terats raving psychopaths, know what I mean? Most Novas I know who have had their hands on large amounts of cash for any length of time tend to stop seeing it a an object to obtain in and of itself but rather as a tool to achieve their goals.

I was fortunate as a child, growing up in an extremely wealthy family. Money means very little to me because I grew up understanding it's true purpose and ultimate value. Aquiring wealth is not a priority for me but it is an enjoyable perk to my work and one that I use quite carefully.

Don't think for a second that I'm limited by my use of the Baseline economic system either. It's a conveniance, yes, but not a nesessity.

[Sakurako Hino]

Hmmm, then, if there were a Nova Currency, for a Nova state, hypothetically of course, what would that currency look like?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Hmm. A really good question.

The form Cash takes depends on the needs of the population. Various metals, paper, and cigarettes have all been used. A better question is, "what do we need?"

A way to prevent couterfiting would be nice.

Ease of use.

Traceable? Untraceable?

Perhaps some combination of physical and cyber cash?

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:


A way to prevent couterfiting would be nice.
Ease of use.
Traceable? Untraceable?

Prevent counterfiting? Prevent Novas from duplicating something? No, no I don't think so.

I know a former T2M member by the name of Orion who was capable of creating anything that he could conceive of. At first he was limited to those elements and compounds which he could understand with his limited education. With time however he developed a profound understanding of chemistry and the variety of physical properties that matter could exhibit. Do you really believe that you could come up with anything that he couldn't figure out given time?

We are a people capable of manipulating natural law through force of will. Our very concept of 'need' is so radically different from baselines that our economy will have principles completely alien to the ones at work in the world now.

Our economic system is nothing more than a moderately complex web of cause and effect actions taking place. Anyone with the capability to follow a multi-tier web of these actions out a few thousand places can manipulate it to a degree that your average politician would find horrifying. Something as simplistic as 'cash' will go the way of the dodo.

Take a few Novas for example. Wizard could bring things onto this facet of existence that before weren't even acknowledged by us in imagination. Anteus has such a degree of influence over the ecosystem that food production is no longer subject to chance, merely his whim. Preston, with his foresight, given time and practice, would be able to forecast results of nearly any action with such precision as to eliminate the risk in speculation.

Creating a new economy, based on new principles and eliminating the old will not be done out of a desire to move forward, but out of an absolute necessity.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Well put. And this isn't my field, but it is an interesting thought experiment.

We still need a system that lets Joe Nova buy and or sell things to Jane Nova, otherwise we very quickly end up with barter.

Combining computer records with physical objects would go a long way to prevent mater creators and cyberkenics from just making money. Another question is do we want to do that? (My guess, based on basic laws of econ, is yes, because to not do so would let them destabilize the currency).

Here is another idea; the use of powers to increase money should ideally reflect some benafit to society. Examples: Joe nova using matter creation to create money is thus a bad thing. Jane nova using precognition to reduce risk and/or eliminate bad events from occuring is a good thing. Thus even though both are using their god given powers, Joe's use should be illegal and Jane's shouldn't.

Hmmm. Sounds like I'm getting dangerously close to something PU would come up with.

[Sakurako Hino]

Hmmm, sounds like a possible law for how novas deal with fellow novas? Not bloody likely. I've noticed that Novas deal among themselves on a level of respect. Jack Nova may have the ability to bamboozle Jane Nova, but Jack won't, because it is wrong to do so, and Jane probably already knows that Jack Nova thought of such an idea. And most likely, Jane Nova could kick his arse 3 ways to doomsday.

But, now that I think of it, barter isn't exactly that bad of idea.

Welcome to the machine.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Yes, but we are thinking about several hundred novas living together without baselines. Barter quickly runs into that problem where 'B' needs something from 'C' but the reverse isn't true.

Greed and self interest are not baseline inventions, they seem to be pretty universal. Put another way, how do you motivate people to work for the good of society?

A capitalistic society does so through the pursuit of money, i.e. Greed. If society needs/values (for example) food, then the cost of food goes up and people make more. If society has too much, then the price drops and people make less. This system has its problems, and needs some spot fixes, but on the whole it does better than any other system that baselines have come up with.

With novas, you could easily have 2 or 3 or a dozen novas who could effortlessly supply the entire community with food. Fine. But what motivates them? Force? Altruism? Money? Some other reward? Respect for society? Some combination there of?

Is there a need to measure Nova B's contribution to society compaired to Nova C's? If, for instance, there is only one time manipulator and everyone wants to be young, demand could easily outstrip supply.

[Sakurako Hino]

In other words, there's alot we have to sort through in philosophy, and practice.

Ugh, and I thought the Humans had it bad when they started THEIR civilization...

[Teknokat]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Yes, but we are thinking about several hundred novas living together without baselines. Barter quickly runs into that problem where 'B' needs something from 'C' but the reverse isn't true.

This is, of course, where Novas D, E & F come in. Barter tends to mean a lot more running around if you need something, but it's quite doable. If Nova A needs nothing from Nova C, but needs something from Nova B, She can try using Nova B as a middle man. If that runs into a dead end, you just keep recursing until you find a way to accomodate everyone.

I mean, there are novas out there (myself included), that can keep track of event-chains past 3000, without shifting between short & long term memory. For a nova economy, what would likely happen is you'd have agents that can exist on their own, with trade agents making a living facilitating trade with others.

It's only slightly more complex than a true barter system, but it works for more circumnstances than you'd think. It also quite closely mimics what we have now...

[Doutor da Reducao]

Senhorita Apép, I am retired from that occupation. In answer to your question, in my own humble case, it took a not insignificant injury to realize the truth of the very question you posit. What can one do with wealth beyond the dreams of avarice? What use is gold when already possessed is that which cannot be purchased for any price?

It is true that the money to be made was incredible, almost beyond imagination, but as you say; what could one do with all of it? The life changes you in many ways. Yes, there are glorious and noble qualities to being an Elite but there are prices to be paid as well.

Today there is no one trying to kill me, nor need I plot the demise of another. There is a proverb that rings true here. Alegria de uns, tristeza de outros. One man's happiness is another man's sadness.

As for the subject of economics; it appears that something is being overlooked here. How long do each of you expect to live? Barring misfortune, Deus é grande, would you all not expect to be able to the observe the centennial celebration of N-day? And if you can make it that far whole in mind and body could you stand the idea of spending another century pricing fruit while observing a politician destroy an economy through simple ignorance?

To simply substitute a barter system, or any system, for the current economics is to fail to comprehend the problem.

[ 10-21-2002: Message edited by: Doutor Reducao ]