Trinity RPG - Contradictions

[Blue Thunder]

The Trinity books are very well detailed and very thorough. But sometimes one book will say something and then another book will contradict it. I've noticed two instances of this.

The first is from America Offline and Asia Ascendant. In America Offline, it is said that Orgotek has set up latent testing and recruiting facilities around the world but focuses on the FSA, Quebec, and Nippon. Yet in Asia Ascendant, it says that everyone in Nippon is tested at birth by the Nihonjin government, and then become novas or Superiors. Why would Orgotek focus on Nippon if there were no latents for them to recruit?

The second is from the Player's Guide. In the freeform system there is a Biokinesis technique that lets a shifter heal health levels. I thought that was impossible. I seem to remember the other books making a big deal about how biokinesis could not heal health levels and how the Norca were constantly researching and experimenting to find ways to do it, but still could not.

So how would you guys explain these two? And have you found any other cases of conflicting information?

[BlueNinja]

The first is from America Offline and Asia Ascendant. In America Offline, it is said that Orgotek has set up latent testing and recruiting facilities around the world but focuses on the FSA, Quebec, and Nippon. Yet in Asia Ascendant, it says that everyone in Nippon is tested at birth by the Nihonjin government, and then become novas or Superiors. Why would Orgotek focus on Nippon if there were no latents for them to recruit?

That doesn't seem like too much of a contradiction to me; after all, Orgotek doesn't know that there's no latents for them to find, and given their own technophilia, it seems like a good place to recruit.

The second is from the Player's Guide. In the freeform system there is a Biokinesis technique that lets a shifter heal health levels. I thought that was impossible. I seem to remember the other books making a big deal about how biokinesis could not heal health levels and how the Norca were constantly researching and experimenting to find ways to do it, but still could not.

I thought the freeform psi rules were only to be used after the 2122 event that reshapes the noetic fields, meaning that effectively, the rules have now changed. I could be wrong, I only glanced at the freeform rules.

[SkyLion]

That doesn't seem like too much of a contradiction to me; after all, Orgotek doesn't know that there's no latents for them to find, and given their own technophilia, it seems like a good place to recruit.

I thought the freeform psi rules were only to be used after the 2122 event that reshapes the noetic fields, meaning that effectively, the rules have now changed. I could be wrong, I only glanced at the freeform rules.

freeform rules are an alternate system that may be used at any time. It does for Psi what Mage: The Ascension does for Magick. (IMHO the best magic system ever devised...)

[Finbar]

The Orgotek/Nippon things isn't a contradiction, as Orgotek (as a psi order) isn't allowed into Nippon....

[And just to be obnoxious, I'd go with the Sorcerer Revisted as the best system ever designed; it's just more fun...]

FR

[Blue Thunder]

The Orgotek/Nippon things isn't a contradiction, as Orgotek (as a psi order) isn't allowed into Nippon....

Uh, that's what I'm trying to say. In Asia Ascendant, it says psi orders don't have a presence in Nippon. Yet in America Offline, it says Orgotek has testing facilities in Nippon that turn out recruits.

And I just found the actual passage I was looking for, in the main sourcebook's Orgotek section:

"A substantial number of Orgotek psions are also Nihonjin; Orgotek is friendly with a number of the Psi Nippon enclaves.

But in Asia Ascendant it says that Psi Nippon has yet to actually find a latent Nihonjin:

"Since more than 95% of all Nihonjin are tested for unusual genetics as infants, and all who test positive are either awakened as novas or superiors or have all such potential suppressed, none of these youths have proven to be latent. The Nihonjin government realizes that the movement will become far more popular if any member of Psi Nippon actually gains psionic powers."

How does that fit together?

[madcat82]

Nihonhin enclaves and Nippon is two different things (the enclaves are space stations, Nippon is the four main islands)...

Here is a contradiction though: In the tech manual it says that bio-tech computers are not nearly as good as hard-tech ones, however in America Offline the bio-tech computers are a lot better than any Hard-tech ones.

[Blue Thunder]

Nihonhin enclaves and Nippon is two different things (the enclaves are space stations, Nippon is the four main islands)...

Actually, Makaro-Shima (the main Psi Nippon enclave), is underwater. An enclave is just a community.

And...any idea why Nippon is called Nihon in the D20 version? Why the change?

[Jackson Creed]

The second is from the Player's Guide. In the freeform system there is a Biokinesis technique that lets a shifter heal health levels. I thought that was impossible. I seem to remember the other books making a big deal about how biokinesis could not heal health levels and how the Norca were constantly researching and experimenting to find ways to do it, but still could not.

That's one of the interesting things about the Psi rules in Trinity. In the Psi Order/Setting books, alternate mode powers are stated as being hard to learn, requiring a great deal of effort and practice to master. But in the TPG, the freeform system gives massive variability over the kind of effect that can be generated. As I see it, the freeform rules give an alternative way of doing the Psi system (flexibility over powers by rote). The freeform system is harder to manage by the GM, but gives players far greater leeway in how their character uses his/her powers.

As for Biokinesis, healing damage is well within the aupices of this aptitude (as are many of the Mentasis powers) provided that they are ONLY used on the biokinetic character's own body/mind. Psychomorphing 5 allows the character to use powers on others, but if a biokinetic were to repair the damage of an ally, that character will likely suffer even more damage than before when his body rejects the biokinetic changes (even if they are beneficial!) and the character is also in danger of his template being damaged permanently. However, personally I would allow a Biokinetic to heal someone else (assuming he had at least Psychomorphing 5) but the healing would be temporary and only last until the power wore off (hopefully long enough to get to medical/Vitakinetic aid) essentially working like field bandage. If the subject also had Biokinesis, either as an aptitude or as Adaptation as an auxiliary mode I MAY allow them to retain the healing if they can soak the damage with a stamina roll (essentially they can adapt themselves to the Biokinetic changes without rejection).

Biokinesis can be used for healing but will never be as efficient as Iatrosis. Remember, the limitation on single aptitudes is an artificial one and powerful psions should be able to accomplish feats usually associated with another (CLOSELY RELATED) aptitude when it is dramatically appropriate to do so (the GM should always have the final say on what is allowable, but as we all know; GIVE A PLAYER THREE OPTIONS, AND HE'LL TAKE NUMBER FIVE EVERY TIME!!!).

JC

[Alistaire]

Here is a contradiction though: In the tech manual it says that bio-tech computers are not nearly as good as hard-tech ones, however in America Offline the bio-tech computers are a lot better than any Hard-tech ones.

I think that is because AO takes place later than the TechMan, like each order book progressively does. The TechMan says that they are not yet good enough, but then in AO, you can assume that these just came out on the market. I personally pushed the public introduction of the Tortoise until mid-2121, and only the Orgotek character had a prototype before then. Now other PCs have it, and the Orgotek guy has the next prototype (perk of being an "company" man): the Elephant.

And...any idea why Nippon is called Nihon in the D20 version? Why the change?

Because even though it's spelled "Nippon", it is pronounced "nee-hon", which is aluded to in Trinity's spelling of "Nihonjin" for Japanese. This is what the Japanese use to refer to themselves and their country IRL. I have no idea why it is spelled with p's however. "Nippon" is the proper spelling for some reason though. ::confused

[Blue Thunder]

So I've been pronouncing it wrong this whole time. Joy. I'm still trying to get Solveig Larssen pronounced right...

[Blue Thunder]

In Aberrant material, the project to terraform the Ethiopian Highlands is called Project Eden. Except in Year One's Addis Ababa section. There it's called Project Abyssiana. Oops?

[Ian Watson]

In Aberrant material, the project to terraform the Ethiopian Highlands is called Project Eden. Except in Year One's Addis Ababa section. There it's called Project Abyssiana. Oops?

Technically, it's Project Abyssinia and Operation Eden. (: Year One was in development before Project Utopia, so Abyssinia was likely the original name for the project in the Aberrant bible, but they decided to change it for Project Utopia, maybe because they didn't want another "Project" name.

[Blue Thunder]

Another thing in Year One, it introduces the Addis Arcology. It says it's the first arcology in the world. But in America Offline it explains that Seatown in the FSA was the first arcology.

And in the Lagos section it explains that Alafin Sango doesn't allow Utopia anywhere in Nigeria (to say the least), yet in Project Utopia's book it says that one of it's chief centers in Africa (or something) is in Lagos.

[Nullifier]

I'd imagine the arcology thing is because Aberrant came out after Trinity. Interestingly, IRL it looks like the Russians will be the first to build an actual arcology.

[Blue Thunder]

In my setting, I'll just assume that Addis Arcology actually was the first, but somehow that fact gets buried in history by Aeon/Proteus. Probably because the arcology was so heavily associated with novas/aberrants. By the Aberrant War's time, the whole place might get destroyed.

[Alistaire]

Well, and then there was that little thing about the OpNet crashing, losing tons of data. I imagine all sorts of history had to be "rewritten" as best as people knew (or liked). ::wink

[Blue Thunder]

I found another contradiction, but this one has to do with a date.

In Hidden Agendas, page 16, it says that Jerusalem was shut off from the rest of the world and expelled anyone that didn't follow Temple Judaism in 2100. In Luna Rising, page 21 on the sidebars, it says that this happened in 2094.

This is mostly a minor issue, but I bring it up because this is a pretty important date for the Middle East, should it be included in Bright Continent.

[Blue Thunder]

The Malay Republic as presented in AsAs conflicts with the geographic information presented in the main Trinity sourcebook's glossary. In AsAs it is an Autonomous Region under China, but in the main sourcebook parts of Malaysia have been taken by Indonesia, and the capital of Kuala Lumpur is said to be an ally of the FSA.

[Guest]

I'd imagine the arcology thing is because Aberrant came out after Trinity. Interestingly, IRL it looks like the Russians will be the first to build an actual arcology.

Techinically, there's already a functioning arcology. The original Arcosanti Arcology in Arizona.

[SkyLion]

Techinically, there's already a functioning arcology. The original Arcosanti Arcology in Arizona.

As a student of eco design I had the pleasure of visiting arcosanti during a 4 month intensive grad course.

I have to say that it is sadly not a functioning arcology. The mans (Paolo soleri, who coined the term) ideas are brilliant, but quite frankly he is a fascist crackpot. He, himself, has personally thwarted any efforts to actually complete his amazing design.

The result is a more of a community project and idea workshop but it is nowhere near the full scale plan and is unlikely to ever be completed until he dies and someone with more ambition and a sense of the economics takes over.

[Alex Green]

That's too bad.

[Arashi]

And...any idea why Nippon is called Nihon in the D20 version? Why the change?

Nihon is the name the Japanese people use for Japan. Ni in this constellation means sun and hon means root. Literally it translates as Country/Land/Nation/People of the rising sun/sun goddess. (The sun goddess is in many ways the most important god in the shintoist religion).

About the use of Nippon I heard two things this far:

1. Nippon originated from a mispronounciation by early europeans trading with Japan. With the Westernization during the Meiji-era, the Japanese re-importet the word.

In Hiragana and Katakana (the two syllabel-based Japanese writing systems), syllabels with p are written exactly like those with h, just with a little hook. So they are easily misread, too.

2. Nihon means the county or nation, while Nippon means the duality of Japan as Nation and the Tenno as Emperor and head of the shintoist and the japanese buddhist churches.

To use Nihonjin as name for the country is not right as the -jin suffix changes the word to a person or people, so Nihonjin is a person from Japan or the japanese people, never the country.

Hope it helps ::wink

[Rorx]

Here is another aparrent contradiction - unless I'm remembering it wrong of course.

In the Noetic Science book/file there is an interview with a guy who has been working with the Novas of Eden that is rapidly suppressed by Trinity, and yet in Stellar Frontiers there is both Miliken's address to the UN, which could have been closed session I suppose, but would surely have leaked to some degree by 2123, and there is also a media article by a common citizen of Eden as well.

This suggests that Eden is known about, and the fact that it is ruled by Novas -Sane Aberrants - should be known as well by the end of 2121? So what is the big deal about a Noetic scientist working with/on these Novas a couple of years later?

[Alex Green]

This suggests that Eden is known about, and the fact that it is ruled by Novas -Sane Aberrants - should be known as well by the end of 2121? So what is the big deal about a Noetic scientist working with/on these Novas a couple of years later?

I think the big problem is finding out that pre-psions are also pre-novas. It's a small step from that to "psions are these evil empowered things just like the aberrants are". With some of the shadier things that have happened (Betrial of the Q manipulators, Teleporters leaving, Taint Experiements by the Doctors), it's not an unreasonable step, especially since the novas were welcomed by the baselines at first.

And then we have the reverse problem.

Presumably Eden is known, presumably it's reasonably well known there are empowered people running it. For John Q Public however, the pictures coming back *don't* show a bunch of *things* with tenticles all over the place, and the empowered are against the "aberrants", so that means they are "not aberrants" themselves.

We must not let the truth interfear with the true after all. One of the problems that the authorities face is if the Eden novas become the face of "novas" or worse yet, "aberrants", then John Q is going to ask why we can't make some kind of peace deal with the Colony.

[metaphysician]

Admittedly, this is somewhat reaping what you sow. The big reason everyone thinks of all novas as being aberrant monstrousities, without exception, is Aeon propaganda and history rewriting.

That said, I think the even bigger skeleton in the closet for the psi orders, long term, is the fact that they were created by aliens. There really isn't any way to spin it that the Doyen don't come off at *least* arrogant and manipulative.

[SkyLion]

And the Orders would be captial P PISSED when they realize they were utterly duped into the genocide of the Chitra Bhanu...

[Alex Green]

And the Orders would be captial P PISSED when they realize they were utterly duped into the genocide of the Chitra Bhanu...

That's something they may be unlikely to admit to themselves... although perhaps with what happened with the Teleports, less so. However something they're *going* to find out is their tanks are delibrately limited.

[Rorx]

I think the big problem is finding out that pre-psions are also pre-novas. It's a small step from that to "psions are these evil empowered things just like the aberrants are". With some of the shadier things that have happened (Betrayal of the Q manipulators, Teleporters leaving, Taint Experiements by the Doctors), it's not an unreasonable step, especially since the novas were welcomed by the baselines at first.

Ah, I missed/forgot the reference to the pre-triggering state issue, one that was also mentioned and hushed up during the Huang-Marr hearings - Passage through Shadow or Ascent into Light.

From some of the sidebars in Stellar Frontier it seems as though Ortha and the Legion Proxy are having second thoughts about the Chitra purge and Ortha is certainly questioning it.

I get the impression from Terra Verde that the Norca are already suspicious of the limitation on there powers - they habitually push it as far as they can - and it wouldn't surprise me if they had a team, including some of the captured QK, working on the parts they may have grabbed of the QK chamber to find out how it works and more improtantly for the limitiation effect, how it differs from their own chamber.

The hushed up nature of good Novas/Bad Aberrants is going to bite Trinity more than anyone else. While the aliens behind the Orders could either be released by the Proxies themselves (very unlikely) or from Nippon (perhaps as a smokescreen for when they have to reveal their own Novas?)

[Alex Green]

From some of the sidebars in Stellar Frontier it seems as though Ortha and the Legion Proxy are having second thoughts about the Chitra purge and Ortha is certainly questioning it.

Sure, but think of the outcry if they publically said they'd slaughtered the wrong set of people. That the Chitra *were* good guys, and in fact were one of the big hopes for dealing with the abbies.

I get the impression from Terra Verde that the Norca are already suspicious of the limitation on there powers - they habitually push it as far as they can - and it wouldn't surprise me if they had a team, including some of the captured QK, working on the parts they may have grabbed of the QK chamber to find out how it works and more improtantly for the limitiation effect, how it differs from their own chamber.

They are, we had a developer come through here and say that was one of the next developments planned.

The hushed up nature of good Novas/Bad Aberrants is going to bite Trinity more than anyone else.

Yes, but I can see why they went that route. Your sister erupts. How is the gov supposed to convince you and the local people that she's probably helping that she needs to be put down like a rabid dog while she's still weak?

While the aliens behind the Orders could either be released by the Proxies themselves (very unlikely) or from Nippon (perhaps as a smokescreen for when they have to reveal their own Novas?)

I'm not fully sure that anyone other than the Proxies can prove their alien origin. I'm not even sure that Max knows.

[Rorx]

In the early stages after an eruption it is probably easier to convince people to put them down - even in the Nova age when they weren't almost automatically insane after erupting the process tended to have messy consequences with potentially whole neighbourhoods/blocks destroyed either during the eruption or soon after from un/badly controlled use of thier powers.

I'm not fully sure that anyone other than the Proxies can prove their alien origin. I'm not even sure that Max knows.

True, I'm not sure Max does know, although I wouldn't count against it. Nippon does know since that is the basis for not allowing any psi based bioware into the country, and only reluctantly allowing psions in. It might be in AsAs or Noetic Science I'm not sure, but there is a sidebar or something about detecting alien DNA in amongst that of Cassel and Bue as well as samples of the bioware that Orgotech creates.

[Alex Green]

In the early stages after an eruption it is probably easier to convince people to put them down - even in the Nova age when they weren't almost automatically insane after erupting the process tended to have messy consequences with potentially whole neighbourhoods/blocks destroyed either during the eruption or soon after from un/badly controlled use of thier powers.

Sort of true, not everyone erupts with Q-Bolt or something similar. If someone erupts with Healing or Mega-Socials or even if they just manage not to hurt anyone then the gov has a problem if the family shields them.

True, I'm not sure Max does know, although I wouldn't count against it. Nippon does know since that is the basis for not allowing any psi based bioware into the country, and only reluctantly allowing psions in. It might be in AsAs or Noetic Science I'm not sure, but there is a sidebar or something about detecting alien DNA in amongst that of Cassel and Bue as well as samples of the bioware that Orgotech creates.

I'd forgotten that Nippon knows... oh, wait, the Earth is openly dealing with aliens and much of the bioware tech comes from them. So the idea that the Proxies might have been dealing with them before shouldn't be all that bad.

[Rorx]

I'd forgotten that Nippon knows... oh, wait, the Earth is openly dealing with aliens and much of the bioware tech comes from them. So the idea that the Proxies might have been dealing with them before shouldn't be all that bad.

Except that Nippon might have found out about it before contact with the Qin, and it is obvious that the bioware that Earth produces is nothing like the Qin bioware, which is only just starting to come into the marketplace commonly during/after the invasion of Chromie Prime.

Trying to fob people off with the Qin as the aliens behind the Proxies and bioware is never going to work, especially as they are so psionically weak compared with Humans.

Bringing the Doyen in to it has it's own problems, as a fair chunk of the people involved with the invasion of chromie prime and the subsequent operations/negotiations are going to end up knowing that aliens with the same description as the Doyen (if mentioned) were behind the Chromatics coming after Earth in the first place.

[metaphysician]

There's also the fact that, we can interact with the Qin on reasonably even terms *because* of biotech and psionics brought forth by the psi orders. To find out that this facility is *not* human in origin, but comes from a secret alien source? Not exactly inspiring of confidence.

[Rorx]

There's also the fact that, we can interact with the Qin on reasonably even terms *because* of biotech and psionics brought forth by the psi orders. To find out that this facility is *not* human in origin, but comes from a secret alien source? Not exactly inspiring of confidence.

Psions and perhaps biotech may have allowed us to contact the Qin, but it thier interest in our hardtech that keeps them coming back for trade etc.

If we didn't have the biotech an Upeo ferryman could still have taken a contact ship out there, it would just have to have been a smaller one (say 70m length for a Psi 8 ferryman), and we would still have been fascinated with their biotech, and they with our hardtech. However, rather than wanting to learn from them how to improve our biotech, we would instead only be in a position to purchase what items they were willing to create for our market.

On the subject of the Nova/Aberrant information release...

Eden is less of a problem than Nippon. At least the 'Novas' from Eden did actually leave and show no wish to return unless/until invited, with whatever limits the UN want to put on them (to a degree at least, if they don't agree with the limits then that individual Nova wouldn't bother coming back). With the release of information about the Novas of Nippon you have the problem that they were already here and didn't abide by the Ultimatum to leave.

[Alex Green]

IMHO Hard Tech is probably better than BioTech in a number of ways. There are good reasons why the car replaced the horse.

[metaphysician]

IMHO Hard Tech is probably better than BioTech in a number of ways. There are good reasons why the car replaced the horse.

For all purposes other than implants and psionic enhancers, yeah, pretty much. The Qin stuff is notably better, though, so it is more competitive when properly developed.

[Rorx]

IMHO Hard Tech is probably better than BioTech in a number of ways. There are good reasons why the car replaced the horse.

Yeah, it's faster and debatedly more durable, but requires more infrastructure and can't reproduce itself, which can be a major factor for any new colony, of which humanity seems to have several...

Qin biotech can also be created or prevented from being able to reproduce itself - see Bioblimp in the Stellar Frontiers book.

If the Qin ever managed to make a Leviathan equivalent of their own I wonder if they could reproduce ... (damn can't remember the name of the scifi series with the living ship that gave birth to a baby battleship)

[Alex Green]

Biotech should be able to get sick. Need food. Not have armor. Generate shit. Smell. Be much less durable since it's alive and can die. Need *far* more maintenance since it can't just be turned off, for example Farmers work pretty hard and they don't take vacations.

If the Qin ever managed to make a Leviathan equivalent of their own I wonder if they could reproduce ... (damn can't remember the name of the scifi series with the living ship that gave birth to a baby battleship)

Lexx.

Lexx is one of the better examples, but even it should have had more problems. A bio-tech space ship is alive. That means it needs to worry about all the various environmental stuff that space brings, like radiation, heat, cold, etc.

[Rorx]

Heat and some types of radiation are less of a problem than cold - after all every organism needs some method of gaining energy for its internal processes. Insulation and redistribution of heat are the ususal methods of dealing with cold.

[LDKNemene]

In the Color section of the Aeon handbook it states '... The Colony, known ally of Divas Mal...' known when? it has been stated multiple times since that The Colony was not known during the Abarrent war, and we have had no news of Divas Mal since, so when did we learn they were 'Allies'?