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BlueNinja

Aberrant RPG - Aggro claws

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Ok folks, I want to ask this of all the Aberrant fans.

Putting aggravated on claws, the way it's written in the core book, is way too powerful. Turning your mega-strength auto-damage into aggravated for a lousy 6XP is broken. At the same time, the errata pdf nerfs it ridiculously. Making the damage max out at ten dice is laughable when you're facing down novas with Invulnerability or Hardbody.

So here's what I'm thinking:

Putting aggravated on claws makes your unarmed attacks do [mega-strength] levels, plus [strength + claws + extra successes] dice of aggravated. While that still maxes out the aggravated damage at a mere 20, it gives a little more bang for the buck.

Anyone think it should be stronger/weaker?

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I know we spoke of this on AIM but I'll add my thoughts here for general feedback.

Buying non-aggro lethal claws with maxed mega str is 25+str+claws+success so maxing out at 40 levels. Assuming Q5 and no mastery your standard non-supercharged lethal q-bolt maxes at 35 which is fair considering its more dangerous to be in close combat.

Of course one could add immolate to the claws as well.... ::devil

So yeah, Meg-Str is a great way to do lots of damage for no quantum, claws are better thancrush because you dont have to wait an attack and it doesn't cost juice per hit.

As per our AIM discussion, Mega Str (especially at 5 where you get +[25] is supposed to be monstrous....wading through foes smashing things left and right and dominating anyone with less mega str. I don't have a problem with high mega strength being brutal. High M-Str + aggro is even more brutal.

Basically I like your solution but for one problem. Invulnerability is invulnerability nuff said. The other two ways of soaking it are either hardbody or impervious both of which transform it from agg to lethal. In this case its worth it to not buy agg. as it would be less effective not more. So much for paying extra for extra. The solution of course is that if the extra or enhancement strip away the agg to make it lethal then you should do damage at the level it would be if you had not bought the extra. IE normal lethal claws. In the other WW games I have played we also had a house rule where we didn't roll damage if it was agg unless they could soak it. In other words, If you can't soak the damage it is just applied (at full value.) So those are my humble opinions. Feel free to integrate them or not as you like....

Oh and BN:

...Hopefully you won't be slaying dearly loved PCs with nasty aggravated attacks anytime soon ::ohmy . (or at least not unless they deserved it through sheer stupidity...)

P.S. To BN as a reminder to the other topic of our discussion, I never liked the ping damage rules... Im used to playing old school white wolf (which may not mean a thing to some of you) and you either *can* or *can't* damge someone. Pinging always seemed to me like an illogical break in the suspension of my disbelief, especially with baseline vs. Nova scenarios a la Elites... Being able to ping someone when they have hugely higher soak but its only *1* below the required "double the damage rating" is another example of nerfification(?) If you are going to have people that can deflect bullets then freaking just let them and stop trying to handicap everything. BN mentioned to me that most elites have a lethal soak of at least 10, making them immune to bullets, but thats a low calibre weapon, you'ld need 14-16 LSoak to stop a rifle and thats BEFORE considering extra attack successes... Just as with other discussions on mega lifting and hypermovement, the in character flavor text suggests that its common place for Novas to race fighter jets, lift aircraft carriers and shrug off small arms fire (including automatic rifles). Then they go ahead and try and balance them against baselines, adding ping rules and setting the hypermove bar too low (er...for jetfighters that is, unless you max out enhanced move m-dex but thats another thread.) Shrug off means shrug off...no being "pinged to death." Alternatively one could rule that ping damage is only good for bruising...

As another weird soak quirk of Abbie: I always thought it wierd that powers like FF and SS are variable (doens't practice make perfect?). Then the errata in th PG allowed for a fixed form. Problem is their is a huge gap between fixed and variable. IE.The fixed FF doesn't let M-Stamina dice affect the strength of your field. Whereas the variable kind if you get an M-stam 10 that translates into 6 levels of force field for that one die...

But enough of picking nits...

Bottom line is, the rules are there to facilitate storytelling, not to get in the way. Perhaps we need a house rules thread for this stuff, just so everyone is on the same page...

*Ahem* carry on...

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So...In order to get that much damage from a Q-Bolt, I just need to buy it five dots as a Level 3 power (I would point out that I need a Q2, but that's a low Quantum to start with). However, to get that much damage from Claws, I need to buy at five dots as a Level 2 power, buy five dots of Mega-STR, make sure my normal Str is 5, and make sure that I have Q4 (isn't there a max of Q+1 for megas?).

Sure, the Claws cost less Q than the Q-Bolt, but given the XP/NP cost, I sure better be getting something out of my investment...

FR

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Putting aggravated on claws, the way it's written in the core book, is way too powerful. Turning your mega-strength auto-damage into aggravated for a lousy 6XP is broken.
The rules don't actually say that. Let's ignore the errata for a moment and stay with the core rules.

Claws does three things.

A) It converts Str bashing damage to lethal damage.

B) It does a point of lethal damage.

C) This damage stacks with Strength.

The Aggravated extra says your power does [Q]+Succ in Agg damage.

But this could only affect aspect "B" above. This is because Aggravated extra does NOT say "replace the word lethal/bashing with the word Aggravated".

We have no way to let lethal damage stack with Aggravated damage, so effect "C" is out. So the real question is what to do with effect "A" above. Basically you can nerf it or leave it as a seperate set of damage.

If we nerf it, then Claws+Agg would do [Q]+succ in aggravated damage.

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"This is because Aggravated extra does NOT say "replace the word lethal/bashing with the word Aggravated".

pg.231 top: "This extra, when applied to a power that causes bashing or lethal damage, makes that damage aggravated..."which it then proceeds to nerf ::brick

If lethal damage adds to m-str successes then aggro should be even *more* powerful....not less...

Basically you can nerf it or leave it as a seperate set of damage.

Are you suggesting that aggro claws should do M-Str[auto successes] lethal + (quantum + successes) aggro?

The rules on this are inconsistent and stupid. If its nerfed then Str people get more bang for less points to stick with lethal. This is not in the spirit of paying extra for extras...

and may I remind you that aggro is supposed to be the deadliest thing there is...even in the world of darkness people crap their pants when werewolves come around...they cut through bad@$$ technocratic cyborgs with ease...like butter...

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I'm probably wrong and just throwing this out there, but isn't aggro damage harder to heal? Maybe that's the trade-off. Does the Healing power cover aggro damage? What about the various Mega-Stamina enhancements? And soak?

In Aberrant you're not likely to kill another nova is just one confrontation. Most novas fight over several battles, right? If you deal enough aggro damage, it lasts longer and doesn't heal the same as Bashing and Lethal, right?

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I'm probably wrong and just throwing this out there, but isn't aggro damage harder to heal? Maybe that's the trade-off. Does the Healing power cover aggro damage? What about the various Mega-Stamina enhancements? And soak?

In Aberrant you're not likely to kill another nova is just one confrontation. Most novas fight over several battles, right? If you deal enough aggro damage, it lasts longer and doesn't heal the same as Bashing and Lethal, right?

Actually, you are correct: It must be healed at baseline rates. Read my post again about werewolves (arguably less powerful than a starting nova, until they build up their gifts (spirit powers) and even then a nova would woop ass.

Healing and Regen can heal agg but at 3x quantum cost...

the problem is that when used on a nova who can soak agg (by making it lethal) then it ends up doing less damage even though you payed for more...

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pg.231 top: "This extra, when applied to a power that causes bashing or lethal damage, makes that damage aggravated..."

The key words are "to a power that causes". The [5] autosucc are NOT caused by Claws. Note please that Claws has it's own 'Ranged' extra (page 186 'Kenetic Discharge') where the extra does NOT apply to Strength damage, it's only applied to the damage caused by claws itself.

Similarly, you can make the claw damage Aggravated, you can NOT make the Strength damage aggravated.

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Rules questions aside...think of the ideas..the concepts behind it...

Take wolverine for example...lets say in Abb his adamantium claws are aggravated (they can shred most anything).

He does [x] amount of damage.

Now give him Mega-Strength 5...

Don't you think he will be that much more deadly when ripping through (tanks, sentinals, evil mutants etc...)

??????

The [5] autosucc are NOT caused by Claws

claws do Str+claws. the 5 auto successes are included under the banner of str. Just like M-Stam is implied in the force field roll (Stamina + FF)

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Rules questions aside...think of the ideas..the concepts behind it...
That's why I was thinking of changing the errata for the aggro claws.

I'm also thinking about making errata on Impervious. Invuln after all just gives you a fixed amount of soak that's the same for bashing, lethal, and agg. Since the other soak-adding powers (Armor, FF, Dens Increase) also add a fixed amount of B/L soak that is equal (unless negotiated otherwise) then I'd rather just have Impervious not be reduced by armor piercing, and add agg soak equal to the lethal soak it provides. That makes those powers closer to Invuln, because they don't use the soak normally from Stam/M-Stam to soak the aggravated. Hardbody doesn't need to be changed, because that's what the enhancement is supposed to do - it's still aggravated damage, it just lets you use your total lethal soak instead of having to buy a power. Since it's paid per attack (not maintenance/permanent) I think it's balanced fine.

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Um...I didnt quite get this post so I am going to disect it.

,,
Invuln after all just gives you a fixed amount of soak that's the same for bashing, lethal, and agg.

right.

Since the other soak-adding powers (Armor, FF, Dens Increase) also add a fixed amount of B/L soak that is equal (unless negotiated otherwise)

by fixed, dont you mean either variable with a roll or fixed without?

then I'd rather just have Impervious not be reduced by armor piercing, and add agg soak equal to the lethal soak it provides.

Er..I thought thats what it already does? ::blink (checks book) Yeah thats what it does...what did you mean?

That makes those powers closer to Invuln, because they don't use the soak normally from Stam/M-Stam to soak the aggravated.

except that if your impervious force field is variable then it is using stamina + M stamina. The soak is added to. (FF says it stacks with your base soak rating) Or are you saying that impervious would only apply to the ff rolled soak and the stamina wouldn't count (excepting use of hardbody)?

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Rules questions aside...think of the ideas..the concepts behind it...

Take wolverine for example...lets say in Abb his adamantium claws are aggravated (they can shred most anything).

I wouldn't call Wolverine's claws Aggravated, IMHO they are Armor Piercing. They do normal claw damage but tend to go through defenses. They also heal normally.

A better example would be a lightsaber. Immagine the Hulk with a lightsaber. His attack cuts anything in two, but not any more so than a normal Jedi.

claws do Str+claws. the 5 auto successes are included under the banner of str.
Incorrect.

The ATTACK does Strength + Claws. You can't make "Claw" attacks like you can Q-Bolt. When making a Q-Bolt attack you roll Dex+Q-Bolt.

Similarly, forcefield is fueled by Mega-Stamina (Stamina based die pool). This isn't implied, it's in the power discription. Claws has NO die pool (page 186) and isn't fueled by anything.

(Page 186) ...Claws convert the bashing damaged caused by the character's normal punches and strikes....

Translation: You can't attack using claws, it simply modifies an existing attack. Your *punch* now does Str+Claws in damage, and you can't put an extra on your punch. This is a subtle distinction, but an important one.

RE: 10 dice max with Errata.

Two other things to consider with this.

1) It isn't 10 dice, it's 15. Rapid Strike can add to this.

2) This is still a level 2 power available at Q1. You could get another extra on it (sustained or area) and also use it in combo with Quick.

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except that if your impervious force field is variable then it is using stamina + M stamina. The soak is added to. (FF says it stacks with your base soak rating) Or are you saying that impervious would only apply to the ff rolled soak and the stamina wouldn't count (excepting use of hardbody)?
*sigh*

Take a nova with 5 Stam, 1 M-Stam, 1 FField. They already have a base soak of 6/3, and then roll up their Forcefield, which adds 6B/6L soak, making his total soak 12/9. If the FField had Impervious, then his Agg soak should be 6, not 9, the way I'd prefer to do it.

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I wouldn't call Wolverine's claws Aggravated, IMHO they are Armor Piercing. They do normal claw damage but tend to go through defenses. They also heal normally.

point conceded.

A better example would be a lightsaber. Immagine the Hulk with a lightsaber. His attack cuts anything in two, but not any more so than a normal Jedi.

This is correct for this one particular example of a special effect.

The ATTACK does Strength + Claws. You can't make "Claw" attacks like you can Q-Bolt. When making a Q-Bolt attack you roll Dex+Q-Bolt.

So how does this take away from the MegaDice effect of Strength?

Similarly, forcefield is fueled by Mega-Stamina (Stamina based die pool). This isn't implied, it's in the power discription. Claws has NO die pool (page 186) and isn't fueled by anything.

okay, makes sense.

(Page 186) ...Claws convert the bashing damaged caused by the character's normal punches and strikes....

Translation: You can't attack using claws, it simply modifies an existing attack. Your *punch* now does Str+Claws in damage, and you can't put an extra on your punch. This is a subtle distinction, but an important one.

Um...of course you attack with claws! Like any other hand to hand strike or weapon they do Str+Claws Lethal damage. Are you saying that a Nova with 5 Str, 5 M-Strength and Claws 2 would not do [25] +7 Lethal damage?

2) This is still a level 2 power available at Q1. You could get another extra on it (sustained or area) and also use it in combo with Quick.

Hmmm...Area affect claws ::glare

Also...I don't hold the rules as sacred. If something is broken, find a fix if possible. All I know is that if someone hits you with an agg attack, you'ld better dodge or have a way to soak it, or you're probably dead. The rules should be able to simulate this. I think the real question that BN is trying to get to, is how to keep the hardcore scary nature of agg damage a real threat even when you have those special defenses. With normal attacks it is reasonably balanced between attack and defense. Yes I know its easier to make soak monsters (Seeing as how my current PC was made to fill that role) but Im saying in general they are comparable. The problem when you make it agg is...The attack either blasts through an undefended person most likely killing them in one blow OR they laugh it off because now the 10 dice or whatever are now lethal and they have a high lethal soak. What I am saying is that a Mega Str character would then be better off having not bought the agg extra. There needs to be a middle ground between the all or nothing effect for the extra to be worth its value.

Yay! Nothing like a rousing debate between gamers on the nuances of damage... ::happy

Take a nova with 5 Stam, 1 M-Stam, 1 FField. They already have a base soak of 6/3, and then roll up their Forcefield, which adds 6B/6L soak, making his total soak 12/9. If the FField had Impervious, then his Agg soak should be 6, not 9, the way I'd prefer to do it.

I like this system of keeping the soak values separate. Also in the spirit of the rules there is no reason that you can't buy an extra like impervious for mega stamina or buy your strength as armor piercing. As always, everything is up to the Storyteller. So what do YOU want for your games BN???

As another thing my friend just pointed out is that since Novas can have rediculous soak, that only agg can get through. If you nerf agg then those enemies become unstoppable... (excepting mental attacks and so forth.) I know that Alex and BlueNinja like to quantum leech such people. ::laugh

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Um...of course you attack with claws!
This is where the English language lets us down since the word with has multiple meanings.

Mechanically, attack powers allow you to attack someone with the power, and you can't do that with claws. Thus you can't actually attack someone with claws because it doesn't have a die pool or related stat.

On the other hand you can attack someone with claws from a thematic stand point (using the power Claw as a quantum sword for example). But in this case all you are doing is using the power to modify the damage you do, mechanically you still roll something else (Brawl or MA).

Like any other hand to hand strike or weapon they do Str+Claws Lethal damage. Are you saying that a Nova with 5 Str, 5 M-Strength and Claws 2 would not do [25] +7 Lethal damage?
It occurs to me that this line of thought supports my argument.

No matter what Claws does by itself, with the extra Aggravated it's damage is [Q]+succ. That basic claws does Strength+Claws is irrelevent.

All I know is that if someone hits you with an agg attack, you'ld better dodge or have a way to soak it, or you're probably dead. The rules should be able to simulate this.
Not true. We already have one cannon example of an Aggravated attack that doesn't instantly kill people, Immolate+Aggravated.
The problem when you make it agg is...The attack either blasts through an undefended person most likely killing them in one blow OR they laugh it off because now the 10 dice or whatever are now lethal and they have a high lethal soak.
So what? If I'm immune to lightsabers then it doesn't matter whether it's Luke or the Hulk who is holding one.
What I am saying is that a Mega Str character would then be better off having not bought the agg extra.
Again, so what?

First of all, someone else's poor character design isn't my problem. Not all powers can (or should) combine well.

Second of all, that Mega-Strength guy is NOT worse off. Aggravated attacks ignore soak. If he finds someone who is immune to his aggravated attack, then he can just turn it off and attack normally. He can even buy Crush to turn his Strength damage lethal if he really feels the need.

There needs to be a middle ground between the all or nothing effect for the extra to be worth its value.
Not all extras are (or should be) worth their value. Claws+Agg is NOT an upgrade on Claws. It is a very different power with different strengths and weaknesses. And considering the nova who gets it has the option to use it or not when it helps him, I don't see that as a flaw.
As another thing my friend just pointed out is that since Novas can have rediculous soak, that only agg can get through. If you nerf agg...
Who said anything about nerfing Agg? If you seriously want Agg damage, then buy Disintergration.

Claws+Agg really should do less than Disin simply because it's Q-min is 1 (as opposed to 5).

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I have to agree with Alex on this one. The description for the Aggravated Extra very specifically states how the agg damage is applied....it doesn't stack with the Str+Claws original damage system.

For an example of how the Aggravated Extra works when it's built into a power, look at Disintegration. It gives the exact same application of agg damage as the Extra.

Roll to hit, add to-hit successes to Quantum rating, and there's your aggravated damage total.

No, you don't get the massive numbers you would if M-Str were added in, but you can't heal agg without Regen or Healing(at 3x the Q-cost, no less), and for most characters the damage is unsoakable.

I think swapping numbers for efficiency is a fair trade-off.

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Disintegration is a Q5 L3 power. Aggro claws is an Q1 L2 power. Disintegration is a ranged attack, claws means getting up close and personal. This also made me think that maybe there should be a Q minimum for doing agg damage...

Also, to clarify what I was saying earlier, aggro claws need not be a lightsaber. Say it was just a sharp blade. Now take a wooden training dummy. You could take your sword and very slowly cut through the dummy, using only the sharpness of the blade, OR you could use all of your power and slice quickly through. The extra power and speed from your strength would transfer much more energy through the medium of the dummy. A parralell example is how a bullet has such speed/kinetic energy that it causes shockwave trauma to whatever it passes through. Mega-Strength characters have much more force than a single bullet to rip through something...

<reading archers reply>

So far your arguments are persuasive. From what Paul said about turning off the agg, that would make sense and be more versatile. You can use lethal claws normally, but say your foe has too high defenses, you could cut through them with agg. If they have hardbody and the lower agg wouldn't get through, you could try going back to lethal. Its a problem though with high lethal soak opponents who also have hardbody or impervious. Then your out of luck...then again, there are some characters out there like Juggernaut who ARE just too tough...then you go find someone with mental blasts (dont forget to knock off his helmet!).

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Also, to clarify what I was saying earlier, aggro claws need not be a lightsaber. Say it was just a sharp blade.

I think this is where the breakdown in communication is occuring. ::brick Aggro claws needs to be something like a lightsaber, or plasma jets for fingers, or hands made of extremely powerful acid, or some other equally nasty thing. That's what aggravated damage is. It's damage from a source so powerfully destructive that it destroys anything in its path without some serouisly powerful protection. To wit: your agg claws may look like a sword, but if it were tested in a lab capable of testing that sort of thing, you'd find it was made of some powerfully destructive stuff. So when you attack with the aggro claws, what you're actually doing is attacking with this dangerous substance that's connected to your hands only in that they are producing it. It takes a lot of power to make such destructive substances as well as to protect the weilder from them. So if someone is specifically protected against highly destructive stuff, it doesn't work nearly as well as an equivalent amount of power channeled into more traditional sources of damage like for instance a fire-based q-bolt.

To make clear why mega-str doesn't add to aggro claws: a character with mega-strength 5 and aggro claws hits the side of a 10-story brick building. With the claws on, his hands/(whatever) go through the wall like a hot knife through butter, but the part of the wall not hit is pretty much unharmed as is the rest of the building. With the claws off, he smashes a huge hole in the wall, the whole building shakes and maybe falls over.

Hope that helps explain it better. Have fun. ::biggrin

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Well put Nulli. I think thats the best argument Ive heard from the IC perspective. What if the claws were on but lethal? Not quite a hot knife through butter...would the building still fall over? Archer's point was well made about efficiency. I think I will rest my case now. The important thing is for there to be game balance between powers and their point value.

(awaits BN's thoughts...)

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To make clear why mega-str doesn't add to aggro claws: a character with mega-strength 5 and aggro claws hits the side of a 10-story brick building. With the claws on, his hands/(whatever) go through the wall like a hot knife through butter, but the part of the wall not hit is pretty much unharmed as is the rest of the building. With the claws off, he smashes a huge hole in the wall, the whole building shakes and maybe falls over.
Ok, I'll take that as a damn good reason not to apply mega-strength to aggro claw damage. But why not base strength?

Even if you're using an aggro-claw light saber :fencing: your muscle mass is going to help you with it. Better, stronger muscles mean a better ability to swing, stop mid-swing, etc. [strength + Claws + extra successes] dice Aggravated is not going to be a humongous dice pool.

Plus there's the little bit of cost. Getting five dots of aggro claws runs you 15 NP. Without adding base strength to damage, you can drop that damage to ping (at best) by spending 6NP on Invuln (punches), which will also protect you from regular mega-strength hits as well.

Disintegrate is also aggro yes, but it has a bunch of things that put it into that Q5 category. Notably, there is no chance to dodge, it does automatic damage (instead of dice), and you're starting at a base damage of six and go up based on how many successes you can get, since there's no upper limit of five that exists for HtH attacks. Protecting yourself from it is also more expensive, as you're either buying Invuln (Disintegrate) or (Energy), or Hardbody (stacked with many, many other soak-raising powers), or throwing Impervious onto Armor or Forcefield.

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You roll dex+disintegrate to hit....where does it say you don't get a dodge????? ::ohmy

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You roll dex+disintegrate to hit....where does it say you don't get a dodge????? ::ohmy

"His successes, plus a number of automatic successes equal to his Quantum, equal the number of levels of aggravated damage the attack inflicts."

What dodge?

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Well put Nulli. I think thats the best argument Ive heard from the IC perspective. What if the claws were on but lethal? Not quite a hot knife through butter...would the building still fall over?

Um. O.k., as far as I know you can't turn extras on and off. They're always on.

Even if you're using an aggro-claw light saber your muscle mass is going to help you with it. Better, stronger muscles mean a better ability to swing, stop mid-swing, etc.

Again, you're missing the point. Strength doesn't apply for the same reason Mega-strength doesn't. Strength doesn't equate with control, and even when it does (there's an enhancement iirc that allows for finer control) it doesn't add to damage, it just dictates the character's ability to subtract from it.

Precision and control are all based on Dexterity, and so is the dicepool. How strong you are doesn't matter when you're hitting someone with a plasma torch, only aim does.

Again, the speed at which the highly destructive substance is moving when it hits you hardly matters: the light saber lops off limbs and heads and such just as easily on a slow, easy swing as it does on a full power swing by the strongest nova. You're not hitting them with something solid, you're hitting them with a substance or energy field that disintegrates everything it touches. The only thing that matters is hitting them with it in a vital spot.

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It doesn't have to be a distintegrating attack. The player is free to define it however they like...

Oh, and muscles....DO add to control. Dex is agility and speed, Strength is power. It takes strength to stop yourself from an explosive movement, speaking as a dancer....

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Right, the attack is player-defined, but within limits. Yes, strength helps you stop yourself, but it doesn't provide precision in hitting things in terms of where you hit them. Which is why the dicepool is dex+claws, not str+claws. Once again, aggravated damage is damage from a source so intensely destructive that it destroys almost anything in its way on contact. That's just what it is, it doesn't really matter what the player describes it as, the effect remains the same.

The damage from agg attacks comes from the intensity and amount of damaging substance and the precision with which vital organs are hit, and really nothing else. Just because you lop off the guy's arm or leg with all your might doesn't make up for you only taking off his arm or leg and not for instance burning hole through his heart or brain, nor does it do more damage than if the arm was taken off with a light swipe which is what happens with agg damage. It's not like spikes and swords and claws and diamond fingernails, it's like thermite plasma torch fingers and lightsabers and hands made of extremely powerful acid. Stop thinking kinetic damage and start thinkng along the lines of disintegration at the molecular level or below. Agg isn't pounding and cutting, it is destroying utterly. At q5, q-bolt w/ agg is treated as disintegration for just this reason. Whatever the original source of damage it is intensified in agg attacks to the point where the effect is the total destruction of anything in its path.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't agg attacks that aren't somewhat different from this mold, Poison+agg for instance allows for some interesting effects, as does the delayed extra, but for the most part agg attacks destroy anything and everything on contact.

Have fun. ::biggrin

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My main point, Null, is that every other hand-to-hand attack adds Strength to damage. I admit to not being a WoD knowledgable person, but I thought it did there as well.

Why should aggro claws be the only one that it doesn't apply to?

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My main point, Null, is that every other hand-to-hand attack adds Strength to damage. I admit to not being a WoD knowledgable person, but I thought it did there as well.

Why should aggro claws be the only one that it doesn't apply to?

Being a WoD freak I happen to know that werewolf claws do Str+4 Aggravated damage and their str can go as high as 12 sometimes higher. (this predates mega atts but still beyond any human)

Id say thats a pretty solid case for including strength. Even the beyond human Str (ala mega atts).

Vampire bites also do Str+1 Agg.

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Um. k. WoD and Aberrant exist in different worlds. In the WoD, aggravated damage generally came from magical sources. The damage was aggravated not because of its intensity per se, but because it was reinforced by what mages referred to as quitnessence, which is basically the raw essence of magic and reality. This reinforcement made the damage nearly impossible to heal, but didn't make it any more intense, 'cause the reinforcement is mystical, not physical. So werewolf claws and vampire teeth, being magical forms of attack naturally did agg damage backed up by strength because it's the physical things, the claws and teeth, actually doing the damage, and the magic making it agg. And vamps took agg from sunlight and fire, and werewolves from silver, also because of the magic making them what they are. However, in the world of aberrant, there is no real magic, just science. Aggravated damage is thus redefined in this world as damage from sources so intensely destructive that they destroy whatever they touch on contact at the molecular level or below. There are only a couple exceptions to this, perhaps radiation or certain diseases for instance could be seen as long-acting (delayed) agg Poison effects, but I'm not really sure there are many others, and even diseases and radiation are actually causing their destruction on the molecular and subatomic levels. The bottom line is that in the world of aberrant as in our world aggravated damage can only be caused, practically speaking, by destruction wrought by massive amounts of directed destructive energy whether living, chemical, viral, electromagnetic, or nuclear. In the WoD, practical sources agg at low destructive energy levels existed because it was magic-reinforced damage. No magic in aberrant, so agg is restricted to damage caused by sources that can actually go through almost any protection like it wasn't even there and cause wounds that never heal. Magic could do that because magic can do anything, so it was possible to have an object or a fist or a natural weapon do agg if it was magical, adding strength normally. In aberrant, there's no magic, so there's only what science allows, and obviously neither I nor the developers can think of any remotely plausible practical source of agg in a science based universe that could effectively be backed up by the weilder's strength. If you can, then imho you're either not very well informed about or not very concerned with the current state of science and the practical restraints of the universe.

O.k., I think I'm done defending the game system now. Do what you like, you always do anyhow, just realize that the people who wrote the system probably had pretty good reasons for what they did. If you disagree with those reasons, that's your right, that's why there's the golden rule. ::rolleyes

Have fun. ::biggrin

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I wasn't attacking the game system...they are the same system. the aeonverse uses a streamlined version and of course its own modifications (like mega-atts and a slighlty simplified dice difficulty system)

You are correct that it is there supernatural sharpness that makes beasties claws do Agg. However it translates perfectly to Abbie. Instead of "magically" supernaturally sharp it can be "quantumly" supernaturally sharp. Yes they are different worlds but the game concepts are fundamentaly the same (ie bashing/lethal agg, the same attributes and mostly the same skills. Theres still backgrounds and willpower and your "power and its price" ratings...).

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You're not understanding what I said, so I'll say it again in a different way. The claws and teeth are not supernaturally sharp. That's not why they do agg. They're normally sharp, and do agg because they're magical. Let me repeat that again. The damage done in WoD be it by the quint charged fist of a pissed-off mage, the claws of a crinos werewolf or the fangs of a vampire is agg because it is magical, and for no other reason. There isn't a claw or knife or fang sharp enough, or fist hard enough to ever do agg damage in either universe. Magic makes these things do agg in WoD, but it's the magic and not any changes made to the things themselves that is doing the agg. There is no magic in aberrant and thus no possibility of that.

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Alrighty. Having played both systems extensively(WoD and Aberrant), there are vastly different themes and mechanics betwixt the two.

Apples to oranges kinda applies here.

For one, WoD was dark, often gruesomely so. Getting jacked up by agg damage was a fairly common occurrence, and because of it, there were means built into the system for effectively dealing with it. The werewolf/silver bit comes to mind...stay the hell away from silver and you're doing okay. Or, simply by that retarded Merit for silver tolerance and you're good to go.

Aberrant is 'gods among men' kinda stuff, not Bram Stoker meets American Werewolf in London. Aggravated damage, as Nulli alluded to, is rare and supremely nasty. Hence it generally being available only to those who cough up serious NP or XP to purchase Extras or powers with the agg damage inherent.

My personal opinion goes back to what I said before. I think the devs made a fairly concrete cap on Agg damage because it's(mostly) unsoakable, and is a nightmare to heal.

Unlike WoD, where Agg damage was likely to be dished out every combat(and the characters in the system had a real good idea of what specifically caused Agg damage), Aberrant has Agg damage show up rarely and out of nowhere.

Every schmuck knows lupine claws and vamp fangs do Agg in WoD. In Aberrant, until it hits, no one has any idea that the Q-Bolt being lobbed by Mr. Nasty is any different(damage-wise) than the Q-Bolt fired out the eyes of Ruby-Eye Leatherpants.

Completely aside from the rules aspect(which we've already discussed ad nauseum), thematically Agg damage just works differently in each system.

Don't get me started on the ugliness of Prime in Mage and its lovely contributions to aggravated damage.

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My Akashic Brother is an adept in Prime... ::devil He also has maxed dex/stealth/arcane so you never saw it coming.... ::ultracool

And Archer...how does your post change that Strength adds to claw damage?

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What, no response to my challenge to practicality? Fine, if you're totally unconcerned with your game having any connection to scientific reality, that's just peachy, but otherwise unless you can show a real, practical source of aggravated damage that would do more damage with a stronger arm behind it, you have no cogent argument for adding strength to agg claws.

In other words, what does agg damage, can be used as an application of the claws power, but doesn't instantly destroy anything it touches?

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My Akashic Brother is an adept in Prime... ::devil He also has maxed dex/stealth/arcane so you never saw it coming.... ::ultracool

And Archer...how does your post change that Strength adds to claw damage?

It doesn't. I was simply addressing the thematic and mechanic differences between the systems as it relates to aggravated damage.

In WoD, Strength is added to claws(notice no capitals, not a power). In Aberrant, the Claws power allows adding the damage of the type of attack(punch, haymaker, swipe, etc) with the rating of the Claws power itself.

Once you add the Extra: Aggravated, the damage system for the power it's being applied to changes. Doesn't matter if it's Quantum Bolt, or Claws, or Immolate. The damage system then becomes what is stated in the book under the description of the Extra. If you applied any of the other Extras available to the same Claws power, I don't think any of us would actually debate how the mechanics worked. (Lower Q-cost for example.)

It seems that most of us(if not all), agree that adding Strength damage, in this specific case, is amazingly imbalanced. I believe the term 'broken' was used.

If you want to go reaaaaaaaaaaallly out there, apply the same logic to Brandt's sonic boom via Hypermovement and make that damage aggravated. Fun stuff there.

Technically, as Alex pointed out, Claws doesn't CAUSE lethal damage. It converts bashing to lethal. The damage output doesn't change, that's a function of Strength and power rating. It's just the type of damage that changes.

Also technically, Brandt's Hypermove by itself causes no damage. But the side-effect of breaking the sound barrier by using that power generates a sonic boom that causes damage. The damage output stays the same, based on the power rating. Couldn't I apply the Aggravated extra to Hypermovement?

Of course not. The power itself causes no damage.

So, if I wanted to really go there, I could say that technically, you shouldn't even be able to apply the Aggravated Extra to Claws, because Claws(by itself) does not cause damage.

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Actually Archer you could buy agg for hypermove, it would apply to his hyper-speed slams and strikes and maybe the shockwave depending on how you defined it. Check out the published NPC Zulu-Tango in Aberrant Worldwide Phase 2. He has bought the explosive extra for his hypermove, defining as converting kinetic energy to heat at the moment of impact. Again, the rules allow for such creativity.

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RE: Turning off Extras.

What Nullifier said. Out of the box Abby doesn’t allow it (although occasionally someone comes out with a house rule).

"His successes, plus a number of automatic successes equal to his Quantum, equal the number of levels of aggravated damage the attack inflicts."

What dodge?

In the general power description area (right before power listings) it says that all powers can be resisted or dodged. Disin is a ranged, dex based attack, it probably can be dodged just because it doesn’t say that you can’t (meaning that it falls back to the default).
For an example of how the Aggravated Extra works when it's built into a power, look at Disintegration. It gives the exact same application of agg damage as the Extra.

Roll to hit, add to-hit successes to Quantum rating, and there's your aggravated damage total.

Actually No.

Oddly, or perhaps not oddly, Disintegration has it’s own damage system which isn’t quite the same as the standard Agg extra. This makes a little bit of sense considering Q-Bolt + Agg really shouldn’t be quite as good as Disintegration because of the Q-min difference.

(My book isn’t here so forgive me if I phrase this poorly)

Example: Q=5. Attack Succ = 4. Defenders Dodge Succ = 2.

1) Q-Bolt+Agg will do 6 (5+4-2) levels of Agg with another die added in for accuracy.

2) Disintegration will do 9 (5+4) levels of Agg with another die in added for accuracy.

The extra die added for accuracy comes from the general power rules for ranged (as opposed to resisted) attacks.

Disin does more damage because it gets its damage succ from its power roll, not its attack succ. We should also assume that the power has to hit in order to do anything.

It doesn't have to be a disintegrating attack. The player is free to define it however they like...
Only within certain limits. Aggravated attacks are defined to involve ‘total tissue destruction’. If you slap a normal with 8 levels of Agg damage there should be very little left; a puddle of goo, a pile of ash, a red mist, or even nothing. A simple knife or bullet doesn’t even start to meet that definition unless you are swinging around neutronium or a black hole or something similar. In nature, NOTHING, including radiation, does agg damage.
My main point, Null, is that every other hand-to-hand attack adds Strength to damage. I admit to not being a WoD knowledgable person, but I thought it did there as well.

Why should aggro claws be the only one that it doesn't apply to?

Game balance. And here we run into why the errata was created and why it’s a good idea.

The two problems with Claws+Agg from a balance perspective is they are a level 2 power (so there can be one more extra), and they are a maintenance power (so they can be used several times during the round). It’s also worth noting that these two problems interact.

RE: Claws+Agg

Keep in mind that (ignoring Brawl), Claws+Agg isn’t a Strength effect, it’s a dex effect. As such it can be used in combo with Rapid Strike.

RE: Maintenance

The only other maintenance power that does Agg is Immolate+Agg. Note Immolate+Agg does much, MUCH less damage than Claws+Agg would do without the errata. This is especially true at one dot. Being a maintenance effect means it can be combined with [edit] Quick and other multiple action things to do damage several times during the round.[/edit]

RE: Claws+Agg being level 2.

Claws+Agg+Ranged should NOT be far better than Disintegration. But if we just have the core rules C+A+R has a maint cost of 3 (as opposed to a use cost of 3), and can be used multiple times a round (Disin can’t).

Claws+Agg+Area should NOT be far better than Immolate+Agg, but here again we have the problem that it is. It does FAR more damage, and it does it several times a round.

And because these are maintenance effects, they can be combined with Hypermove(Running), Flight, etc.

And to top it all off, Claws has a Q-min of 1.

Way, way, too much bang for the buck, and that’s why the errata was put down.

RE: Werewolves

WOD Aggravated damage wouldn’t be Aggravated in Abby, it would be lethal. Again, in abby, NOTHING natural does Agg damage. Sharp teeth doesn't even start. In the WOD Aggravated mostly means that it can't be regenerated by Werewolf/Vampire's healling factors.

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Only within certain limits. Aggravated attacks are defined to involve ‘total tissue destruction’. If you slap a normal with 8 levels of Agg damage there should be very little left; a puddle of goo, a pile of ash, a red mist, or even nothing. A simple knife or bullet doesn’t even start to meet that definition unless you are swinging around neutronium or a black hole or something similar. In nature, NOTHING, including radiation, does agg damage.

What Alex said. What does it matter how much force the nuetronium hits you with? It still goes right through you like you weren't there, as does anything else that does agg damage in Aberrant, no matter how much of a weakling the guy hitting you with it is.

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What Alex said. What does it matter how much force the nuetronium hits you with? It still goes right through you like you weren't there, as does anything else that does agg damage in Aberrant, no matter how much of a weakling the guy hitting you with it is.
If you don't have the means to soak it, true. But if you've got the Invuln, then the body builder with agg claws should have a better chance of breaking your soak than the paraplegic with agg claws.

I can see why Agg works the way it does in WoD now, thanks. I knew if I brought it up, someone who actually knew what they were talking about would point out the rules. ::happy

RE: Claws+Agg

Keep in mind that (ignoring Brawl), Claws+Agg isn’t a Strength effect, it’s a dex effect. As such it can be used in combo with Rapid Strike.

That's a good point - but that still maxes it at 15 dice.
Claws+Agg+Area should NOT be far better than Immolate+Agg, but here again we have the problem that it is. It does FAR more damage, and it does it several times a round.
How does Immolate not work multiple times a round? It inflicts damage every time something touches you or vice versa. Every hit you do has Immolate damage added, and every hit you take also inflicts Immolate damage.
Way, way, too much bang for the buck, and that’s why the errata was put down.
I only mentioned because the errata IMO seems nerfed too far. Not having full mega-strength damage adds is only reasonable. But the errata also doesn't give the standard damage for the attack - no 2 dice from a punch, no extra dice if you're doing hyperspeed strikes, etc.

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That's a good point - but that still maxes it at 15 dice.
15 dice several times a round. And even one hit will normally hurt someone so badly they're out.
How does Immolate not work multiple times a round? It inflicts damage every time something touches you or vice versa. Every hit you do has Immolate damage added, and every hit you take also inflicts Immolate damage.
One dot of Immolate+Agg does [1] per attack. That's not scary even if you can use it many times a round, and if you have 5 dots then you could have bought another level 2 power at 3 dots.

Without the errata, Claws+Agg does [Q]+succ per attack. It's probably 8 times better than Immolate and it's Q-min is less and so is it's level, so we can make it worse.

Claws+Agg+Area does [Q] per attack over a fairly large area and is effectly Q-Bolt+Area+Agg (no range) useable many times around.

That's brutal. It's even brutal with the errata, i.e. if you have 2 dots of this and quick x2 then there are few novas (or armies) who can stand up to 6 dice of undodgable Agg damage every round, and since it's a maintenance power it doesn't even cost all that much to use.

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