Aberrant RPG - Weapon Specifics: Guns

[archer]

Since the success of the Misunderstood Powers thread, I've been thinking about some of the glitches in the Weapons section of the Abby core book. Specifically, pg 275 and the Ranged Weapons Chart.

There's some goofy things in that chart that I wanted to bring up, and open to discussion.

Here's one of my pet peeves...revolvers, semi-automatic pistols, and SMGs generally don't have CLIPS. Sorry, just had to get that out of the way.

Now, onto the other stuff.

Fully automatic weapons normally aren't available unless a character has access to them somehow. Contacts in the right circles, working for DeVries or other military or paramilitary organizations, law enforcement, etc.

Well, not according to the book. Strictly speaking, all Light and Heavy Pistols are able to use the Automatic Fire maneuver described on page 247 of the core book.

Blew my assumption about that one right out of the water. Any Lt. Pistol or Heavy Pistol is already fully-automatic...you don't even need to step up to an SMG.

Here's another one: Rifles are listed as having no maneuvers, a ROF of 1, and a capacity of 5 + 1 rounds. Now, I assume the writers were thinking of something like a typical bolt-action rifle when they listed those stats, and that's fine.

But what about semi-automatic rifles? Even old workhorses like the M1 Garand can pop off more than 1 shot per 3 seconds, and had 8 shots available. And they had a clip. ::wink

In my own games, I allow a separate category for semi-automatic rifles.

Semi-automatic rifles have a ROF of 3, same as a heavy pistol, and a capacity of 10 rounds.

One of the last things I want to mention before I head to bed for tonight is a discrepancy between the description of Semi-Automatic Burst on pg 248, and the chart on pg 275. The description states very specifically that all firearms may perform this manuever, but the chart only lists that manuever for the SMGs.

Pretty big contradiction there.

That's it for me tonight, got school tomorrow; but wanted to bring this stuff up for view and discussion.

[BlueNinja]

There's also the matter of nova designed guns, such as different types of railguns or (possibly) energy weapons. Are there enough similarities between Aberrant and oWoD for some of the weapon rules and stats to carry over?

And as a friend of mine pointed out, the Strength requirements for melee weapons (specifically swords and axes) are different in Aberrant compared to every other WW game.

[archer]

That's a good point on the melee weapons, BN...could you post some comparisons for me?

I'm assuming you mean things like swords and axes do different damage in other WW books?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Yes I think that's what he means but for certain weapons ie. greatsword, etc. required a certain base strength for the character to weild them effectively, the greatsword needs 4 strength, katana 2 iirc, broadsword 2.

As melee weapons go the Aeonverse handles them quite well, for ranged weapons I feel aberrant let's the 3 down. It's all welll and good to increase the damage values of basic firearms for game balance or story but it wasn't needed in aberrant. All it did was make it easier for baselines to get blown away (and the very ocasional low soak nova) it didn't add anything to game balance.

In the case of heavy weapons in aberrant all is fair, though their ratings are high they can easily e explained by nova tech. Also if you're character's enemy has that kind of firepower there's no way you didn't know or at least suspect how dangerous they really were, chances are you have your own means that scares them enough to have anti-nova gear...

The weapons in trinity imo are far more balanced and suited to the setting, even the heavy weapons are blend in well to the game. There's more veratility here for any situation and your weapons don't have to kill to effectively take a target down. Though to take down a decent strength abby there's a reason psions have powers, if they don't have the heavy weapons ready to do full auto attacks there's very little they can do to stay alive let alone drop the squid.

[BlueNinja]

Actually, Archer, I was referring to the strength values.

In Aberrant, a sword is listed with a minimum str of 3 and max of M-1, and an ax of 2 and 5. But in oWoD (so I've been told) the values are the other way around - an ax needs a higher min strength to use than a sword. Depending on the type of sword, that's entirely valid; I'd give myself IRL a Strength of 2, and I'm not about to run around wielding a full-size Scottish Claymore or a Viking battle-axe. But with a longsword, rapier, or katana, I could do decently. (Not outstanding, but I did fairly well in fencing class in college.)

Are the damages really that much increased between Aberrant and oWoD? I think it was mentioned in my group that guns were changed from bashing to lethal (since vamps are supposed to be able to soak bashing, and therefore avoid crippling wounds from a pistol), but for Aberrant it makes sense that guns do lethal damage. We have one players who has been told by the GM that he'll never be able to take Invulnerability (Kinetic) because he has only ever been damaged by bullets and nova-tech. ::laugh

[Nullifier]

Actually, Archer, I was referring to the strength values.

In Aberrant, a sword is listed with a minimum str of 3 and max of M-1, and an ax of 2 and 5.  But in oWoD (so I've been told) the values are the other way around - an ax needs a higher min strength to use than a sword.  Depending on the type of sword, that's entirely valid; I'd give myself IRL a Strength of 2, and I'm not about to run around wielding a full-size Scottish Claymore or a Viking battle-axe.  But with a longsword, rapier, or katana, I could do decently.  (Not outstanding, but I did fairly well in fencing class in college.)

Are the damages really that much increased between Aberrant and oWoD?  I think it was mentioned in my group that guns were changed from bashing to lethal (since vamps are supposed to be able to soak bashing, and therefore avoid crippling wounds from a pistol), but for Aberrant it makes sense that guns do lethal damage.  We have one players who has been told by the GM that he'll never be able to take Invulnerability (Kinetic) because he has only ever been damaged by bullets and nova-tech.  ::laugh

←

Vamps didn't take lethal from guns in oWoD because they're not alive. Everyone else did though. Many a mage in games I've run and played in wished they'd thought to put on some sort of body armor before taking on a squad of HIT Marks. ::getsome

[ProfPotts]

Here's one of my pet peeves...revolvers, semi-automatic pistols, and SMGs generally don't have CLIPS. Sorry, just had to get that out of the way.

Think we can blame Hollywood & computer games for getting most people to call a box magazine a 'clip', rather than WW - but yeah, little things like that do make the thing look less professional. ::getsome

Well, not according to the book. Strictly speaking, all Light and Heavy Pistols are able to use the Automatic Fire maneuver described on page 247 of the core book.

Yeah - that one's just plain sloppy: I presume it should be 'semi-auto' for automatic pistols, not 'fully automatic'.

Here's another one: Rifles are listed as having no maneuvers, a ROF of 1, and a capacity of 5 + 1 rounds. Now, I assume the writers were thinking of something like a typical bolt-action rifle when they listed those stats, and that's fine.

But what about semi-automatic rifles? Even old workhorses like the M1 Garand can pop off more than 1 shot per 3 seconds, and had 8 shots available. And they had a clip. 

I usually just use the large SMG stats (unless I'm looking at a specific gun I have real world stats on & the extra info' is needed) for 'in the middle' guns - it's a big unconcealable fully-automatic gun, which pretty much covers the basics for an assault rifle or carbine type weapon too. 7L Vs the Rifle's 8L makes sense too, since assault rifles usually use smaller / lighter ammo' than sniper rifles & the like.

Having said that, the system isn't really all that interested in guns, so you can do a lot by converting over real world gun stats to replace the (very) generic few gun types they list in the books. As you point out, the semi-automatic rifle is kinda' skipped over completely (you either use a single-shot or jump to SMG stats), which seems like a strange gap to leave - I guess they thought that few PCs would be that into guns anyway, & those that were would be more interested in heavy weapons or Hollywood favourites.

Actually, an E-Book converting gun stats to the system would be a pretty handy thing to have - something like 'Ultramodern Firearms' but for the Trinity Universe.

One of the last things I want to mention before I head to bed for tonight is a discrepancy between the description of Semi-Automatic Burst on pg 248, and the chart on pg 275. The description states very specifically that all firearms may perform this manuever, but the chart only lists that manuever for the SMGs.

That, I feel, is a victim of the copy 'n' paste tool being used from the Trinity rules. An even worse mistake, IMHO, is the copy 'n' paste of the 'how much Might it takes to use heavy weapons in one hand' text under the 'Two Weapons' bit. In Trinity a 'heavy' weapon is 12 to 20 kgs. In Aberrant it's usually closer to 50 to 100 kgs. Needing 6 in your Might pool to use a 'heavy' coilgun, at 16 kg each, in each hand seems okay in Trinity - needing the same Might pool to use a 30mm cannon, at 50 kg each, in each hand seems stupid in Aberrant.

Attacks & armour having a 'FT' (Formatted Tolerance) column on the Aberrant character sheet is another classic 'What? You mean this isn't Trinity?' error... ::rolleyes

As for the Strength minimums & damage being different between WoD & the Trinity Universe - it's not a good idea to compare directly, since Strength itself has a different value in the two systems:

(old) WoD - Strength 1 lifts 40 lbs (18 kgs), Strength 10 lifts 1500 lbs (682 kgs)

Trinity Universe - Strength / Might 1 lifts 15 kgs (33 lbs), Strength / Might 10 lifts 550 kgs (1210 lbs)

Same's true for other Attributes as well:

WoD - Intelligence 3 = IQ 120, 4 = 140, 5 = 160+

Trinity Universe - Intelligence 3 = IQ 130, 4 = IQ 160, 5 = IQ 180+

This is why you can't really just convert directly between the two seperate systems. A Vampire from VtM with Strength 5, Potence 5, & Intelligence 5 stepping into Aberrant has something like Strength + Might 3 / Mega-Strength 1, & Intelligence 4.

More than that, the two systems are trying to simulate different genres: modern horror Vs comic book or sci-fi action.

[Nullifier]

Wow. So if you've got a 5 Int score in Abby, you're not just a genius, you're a super-genius. Crazy. ::blink ::wacko

[ProfPotts]

Wow. So if you've got a 5 Int score in Abby, you're not just a genius, you're a super-genius. Crazy.

Well... either that, or Vampires are naturally thick... ::tongue ::wink

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I put it down to them being at least 20 years behind everyone else as far as the latest developments and educatation... Unless the vamp was freshly made.

[archer]

More than that, the two systems are trying to simulate different genres: modern horror Vs comic book or sci-fi action.

A beautifully telling point. Sawed-off shotguns are a lot more useful fighting off the undead than gunning for Pax. ::sly

I like your idea of an e-book along those lines, Prof, but I imagine it would by necessity be fairly small.

When it comes right down to it, guns all essentially do the same thing. And considering the sheer volume of firearms that have been created since their inception, it'd be a nightmare to come up with stats for all of them.

But, having a listing of oh, ten or so for each catergory(Revolver, Pistol, SMG, etc), with different capabilites would be nice.

After all, an M1 Garand is radically different than a Remington 700, even though they're both rifles.

I'm not even going to get into ammuntion... ::brick

[Blue Thunder]

This reminds me of an issue I had in a D20 Modern campaign. I bought the D20 Weapons Locker which is entirely full of firearms and D20 stats for every one of them. However I was running a horror campaign where the type of gun you had wasn't as important as actually using it. In my campaign a revolver was a revolver, and a shotgun was a shotgun. Plain and simple. It didn't really matter what brand and type it was. The only other details you needed to know were how many bullets your gun could fire before needing to be reloaded, if it used clips or single bullets or whatever, and if it was magically enhanced. I didn't want the characters obsessing over every detail and facet of thier guns since they were going to get limited use anyway. PLus I'm not well educated on the subject of firearms so I didn't want the characters abusing that fact and trying to get away with crap like they sometimes try to do.

However the players wanted to have a gasm over thier guns and pretty soon the players were spending too much time worrying about the exact handgun they were using and whether or not they should get this add-on or that add-on. Not usually a problem with me but I was running a horror/noir game where roleplaying and quick thinking usually got characters out of problems, and most monsters were immune to bullets.

Spending that much time pining over a firearm you'll rarely use is pointless (unless its in-character of course!). It's the same with Aberrant. Novas don't need guns, unless they're novas without any battle-oriented powers. Or if you're playing a human. Aberrant is about playing a god stuck in normal society...and gods don't need guns.

I can understand the necessity for clarification on the gun rules in the book. They're obviously a little skewed from reality. But I don't think a database of firearms is going to get anyone anywhere.

Of course you could always have a listing of firearms created through Nova means. Like guns made by Mega-Intelligent novas. Or perhaps early laser weaponry?

[ProfPotts]

Most Novas don't need guns, but quite a few use them - which is why you get stuff like the Ultramachinegun & railguns in the Elites book. Quantum Bolt may pack a bigger punch than a .45, but when you run dry of QP & are still getting attacked by those baseline troops, you'll be pleased you brought the pistol with you... ::wink

You also get the Mega-Dexterity / Mega-Perception types who are based around being really good shots - but can't hurl blasts of seething energy themselves.

But yeah - they didn't need to waste a lot of space in the book covering guns - it's not a major part of the game compared with other aspects. That doesn't mean a suppliment covering such stuff would be a bad thing though - it only gets bad if you start to write-up super-guns which make everything else look like peashooters (or the 'Rifts effect' as we like to call it... ::rolleyes ). After all, if you have the stats needed to lug an Ultramachinegun about, you're not gonna' need much of anything else.

[metaphysician]

Eh, I like the ultramachinegun. Its the least supertech of all the weapons in the Elites book, actually. The GAU-8 Avenger is a real gun, and it really does damage that high ( A-10s have it and use it to kill tanks ). All they did in Elites was make it more compact, so someone strong enough could actually carry it.

I actually tend to think the weapon stats in Trinity are a bit on the low side. After all, contemporary military longarms are 7-8L; you'd expect even with hard science limits, standard military firearms of a century later would either do a fair bit more damage ( I'm thinking 10L for the assault rifle equivalent, as opposed to the squad heavy weapon ), *or* have other equivalently buff increases ( +High to accuracy, enormous magazine size ).

Admittedly, thats for the personal weapons. The VARGs and vehicles are just fine. . .

[Alex Green]

you'd expect even with hard science limits, standard military firearms of a century later would either do a fair bit more damage...

This issue was addressed, but I'm not sure where. Basically the technology *isn't* a century more advanced because everything nova/high tech was destroyed.

[metaphysician]

Not everything, not even close. What got destroyed was nova-created technology. . . but there was a hell of alot of new technology not created by novas.

Whats more, wrt to weapons its on the face impossible. Manportable laser, particle beam, plasma, and other such weapons are standard in Trinity. . . and decades away in the real world, at best. So, clearly, entire new technologies had the time to get weaponized to the manportable level, even with the conflict disrupting the middle of the century.

[Centimane]

Here's some suggestions for fleshing out firearms a bit. Some would be considered nova-age tech, while others are already in use today.

Brass Catcher: handy for stealth ops and any situation where the fighting environment must be left "sterile". Brass Catchers are special bags fitted with a customized metal framework over the ejection port of a weapon for the purpose of "catching" spent cartridges. Cost is generally about 10% of the weapon's cost.

Cookie Cutter: available only through the military and the black market. This addition keeps a gun from firing when aimed at anyone wearing a special "cookie cutter" badge calibrated to the gun (or guns). These are so effective at eliminating friendly fire that you can perform a suppressive fire maneuver through a mixed group of friends and enemies with little or no chance of accidentally tagging an ally. Adds at least 1 dot to the cost of the weapon (possibly more depending on how many badges are required).

ElectroThermal Firing System: any firearm can theoretically be converted to use this system. Essentially, this changes the entire firing system to use a combustable fluid in the munitions that is set off with an electric charge producing a very rapidly expanding plasma to propel the munition. The end result is a nearly 50% increase in both damage and range with no significant increase in recoil. The down side is that only electrothermal munitions may be used with such a weapon. These are both expensive and hard to come by. Obviously, this is only available to military and para-military organizations (and the black market).

Adds 2-3 dots to the cost of the weapon, and should probably require some kind of Streetwise roll or something just to find someone who can supply this.

Printless Finish: another stealth option, this teflon-based finish resists oil and dirt so well that it makes it nearly impossible to lift a set of prints off the weapon, even after extended use by a single user. Hard to come by. Adds 1-2 dots to cost (harder to get and more expensive weapons are correspondingly harder to get with this mod).

Solenoid and Electric Triggers: expensive and tricky until one gets used to them, this modification adds to accuracy (+1) at long and extreme ranges because of the seriously reduced trigger pull. Adds 1 to cost of weapon (and the person modding the gun had better know what they're doing....).

[Centimane]

(Some) Specialist Ammunition Types:

Expanding Rounds: details would vary based on this specific design (hollowpoint, DumDum, mercury core rounds) but in general these would do approximately 1.5 times the standard listed damage, but at the cost of increasing the target's effective soak by x2. Obviously not for use against most novas. Cost is the same as normal ammo rounds.

Exploders: these bullets contain explosives to increase striking energy on impact. They come in two basic varieties: Tip Exploders explode on contact, while Base Exploders explode slightly inside the target. This does not add to the bullet's damage until after (and unless) it penatrates the target's soak. Pistols and Lt. SMGs would add 1d10 L to the listed damage, rifles and Large SMGs would add 2-4d10 L to their damage (depending on the specific weapon and ST's mood), 12 gauge or greater shotguns would add 3-4d10 L to their damage (same variation as above). Larger "nova-level" weapons (such as the 30mm cannon) should be handled on an individual basis by the ST. In any case whether the bullets penetrate armor or not, they also inflict between one and three dice of Stun Attack damage on their targets. Basically, assume that pistols and light SMGs are 1 die, rifles, large SMGs, and the average shotgun would have 2 dice, and large calibre shotguns, assault rifles, and anything bigger or meaner should be assumed to have 3 dice. Once again, larger nova class weapons would necassarily have more Stun dice for their attacks. Note that these stun dice only apply if the bullet directly impacts a living target, standing nearby where a bullet impacts doesn't count. Cost is up to the ST, but should equivilate to approximately x5 the cost for normal bullets of the required calibre.

Armor Piercing Rounds: weapons loaded with these rounds function as though they possessed the Armor Piercing extra listed in the core book. The basic variant of this kind of round has a steel core surrounded by coating of some kind (such as teflon or copper) that prevent the bullet from stripping the rifling inside the gun barrel. The steel core does not expand when it hits the target (or inside). Unfortunately, while this kind of round is armor piercing, the damage after penetrating soak is halved (and the wounds caused are generally smaller than normal). Multiply base cost by 2 or 3 times.

Another variant uses Titanium as the core which is lighter than steel, but just as strong, so it travels much faster and slows down quicker inside the target. Unfortunately, it also slows down much quicker in the air as well, meaning it's only armor piercing at close to medium ranges. At these ranges the damage is not halved after soak as with the steel-core rounds. Past medium range these bullets lose their armor piercing ability. Cost should be so ridiculously high per bullet that most characters would never consider buying them (titanium isn't the easiest thing to come by). Of course, if someone in the party or someone they know has Molecular Manip., then things could be different.

Even harder to get and more expensive are Tungsten Carbide rounds. TC is very heavy and very hard; the tools used to machine most metals have TC edges. These bullets function as the titanium rounds, except that they retain their armor piercing traits past medium range. Cost should be even more prohibitive than with titanium rounds.

Another possibility is using depleted uranium as a core. Such rounds would possess truly amazing penetration power, and would retain their damaging capabilities after soak, but seeing as how such materials are not easy to come buy to there isn't much direct evidence to go on. Possible (and interesting) side effects would include: radioactive dust caused from impacts, and the bullets igniting after striking especially hard targets or those with high soak (the uranium is pyrotic) causing burn damage inside the target for several turns. Note that these would not be the same as the depleted uranium flechette rounds mentioned in the core book.

[Centimane]

And yet still more:

Dual Purpose Rounds: these are specially designed to have both an armor piercing effect and extra wounding effects when used against unarmored targets. Generally, a gun needs some customization to fire these kind of rounds or they can become damaged from heat stress. With the basic design the bullets contain a tungsten carbide rod or a steel pin inside a soft lead jacket. When striking an unarmored target the jacket expands like a hollowpoint doing extra damage. When it strikes an armored target the lead jacket is stopped, but the penetrator rod slides free, acting like an armor piercing round. Against unarmored targets the damage is 1.5 times the listed amount. Against armored targets the damage is halved after soak. Cost is generally 3 or 4 times normal.

Memory Metal Expanding Flechette rounds are a state of the art ballistic technology that combines all the best advantages of both armor piercers and hollowpoints. When fired they are high density, armor piercing flechette rounds, but fractions of a second after a high power impact they flatten out into heavy discs the size of small saucers. Nasty, to say the least. Cost should be extremely prohibitive (x10 normal or better).

Advanced Energy Tranfer (AET) Rounds: first off are "safety" slugs, so called because they don't ricochet or shoot through their targets. Basically a copper cup filled with liquid teflon and lead shot, sealed in a plastic cap. These projectiles are very light and travel very fast. After impact, the cup ruptures and the contents spill out in a spherical shape. This allows almost perfect energy transfer and causes massive shock and wounds. Unfortunately, this also means it can't penetrate any armor, and even heavy clothing or a wallet will stop it. Damage is increased by x2, but the bullets cannot penetrate even a single point of lethal soak. Cost is x5 normal cost (more for larger, less common calibres). There are also "armor piercing" slugs, but they are nearly impossible to find and cost significantly more. These bullets are identical to their non-armor peircing cousins, except that they can penetrate up to 3 lethal soak (they are not actually Armor Piercing like the extra, though).

THV or "Tres Haute Vites" rounds use a "reverse Ogive" design, wherein the bullet actually curves inward. Looking like a fat drawing pin that curves out wider down the bullet, the shape reflects the shock waves of the impact away from the bullet at 90 degree angles. This literally tears apart the target with a force equal to that of a bullet 2 and a half times the diameter of the THV round. Because the shock waves also tear apart armor, the round is armor piercing. Damage is 2.5 times that listed (no joke). As far as cost or availability, I pretty much wouldn't recommend letting PCs even get their hands on these, but that's just me.

That's about all for now, as it's late and I don't have the energy to get into all the things a nova-class weaponsmith could do with things like shotgun rounds and thermite (just to name one example). I pretty much made this stuff up, or tranlated over from older systems I've played in, as I went along so feel free to criticize and point out errors. I'm sure I made at least a few.

[Alex Green]

Not everything, not even close. What got destroyed was nova-created technology. . . but there was a hell of alot of new technology not created by novas.

At one point there were hundreds of pieces of tech being destroyed every day. And lynch mobs aren't usually all that conserned about exact justice or discuring results. What Trinity has is a very pale shadow of what was invented.

[metaphysician]

Problem is, even with indiscriminate tech destruction, you'd expect the entirely new weaponized technologies to be the ones lost. And yet, instead, you have new weapons based on new technologies. . . that aren't even much better than late 20th century weapons based on completely different technologies? ::confused

Basically, either the new energy-based weapons, or the Trinity-era versions of projectile weapons, should be better than 20th century pistols, rifles, and shotguns. As it stands, and looking over the two lists side by side, there's barely any improvement at all between analogous weapons. Just going off the basic weapon lists, a unit of modern soldiers would hold its own against a unit of basic Trinity era infantry.

( which is doubly odd, because their *vehicular* arsenal is plenty enough to smash anything the contemporary military has )

[Alex Green]

Aren't most of Trinity's new techs are from the aliens? Meaning they haven't been around very long.

[metaphysician]

Biotech got a big boost from the Qin, but from what I read, it was mainly in terms of terraforming technology. The IC article about the Qin specifically mentions the creation of biofighters as being predating Qin first contact.

Now, biotech isn't totally the best comparison point, since we know it postdates the Aberrant War entirely ( its based on noetic science, which Earth didn't get until the Doyen created the proxies ). OTOH, given its about equal to the hardtech. . .