Aberrant RPG - Misunderstood Powers

[Ayre el KaBeer]

There's been alot of discussion of nova's that want to learn to develop their powers, etc. So for those that feel their characters have to master their power/s, without having a Quantum rating of 6+, once they hit 5 dots in the power they can buy new dots in the powers variant at the cost of the power being one level higher, 2 if it's an extra effect.

Seeing that the player would require a Quantum rating of 5 and the power to be at 5 dot's, the new instance of the power won't be coming along too early, or if it does the player would have sacrificed alot of their character's versatility. There are problems doing things this way, but it's another option.

Another thing, going along the same lines of characters "developing powers", something I've said earlier I don't feel the game even needs these extra powers next to the ones that already exist. Simply put just about anything a "Feild" character can do with forcefield using extra's he can do with Elemental Master/Anima of the same effect their ForceFeild has, if they even have the power, it's just not needed with these powers as far as theme goes. Together the effects would stack both mechanically and logically as the protections would simply act as more layers for an attack to get through.

If it's for the argument of theme there's no reason I can see to require multiple instances of the same power. Even the prof's pretty cool example of the John Woo character can have the same effect using Matter Creation (limit: weapons). The way I see it is that people are trying to get the best possible results as far as numbers go and the best way to do that is to buy multiple's of the most effective specific powers ie. FF, QBolt and Invulnerability. All of which can be traded for other powers with a lesser die/success value, I really do see it as min/maxing.

Alterantives to;

Forcefield:

-General purposes (most attacks): Armour, Mega Stamina enhancement Resiliency, Elemental Mastery Shield, Entropic Shield, Second Skin, Quantum Construct (to mimic the wall extra), Imobilize (can have the projection extra effect in a pinch)

-Specific protections: Elemental Shield (EA), Absorption, Entropic Shield, Gravitic Sheild, Magnetic Shield, Mega Stamina enhancement Durabilty, Ripple Shield.

Quantum Bolt: Disintegration, all level 3 suite powers Blast, Stun Attack, Telekinesis, Spacial Shockwave.

Invulnerabilty: Armour where the soak value has been adjusted to soak Bashing or Lethal to suit the typical damage type you'd expect from a type of attack, ie. Invulnerability piercing/Armour 6L/0B, or Invul hand to hand/Armour 6B/0L or 4B/2L.

[ProfPotts]

Nicely put Ayre ::thumbup - that's the way I'd go by preference as well.

Special effects are generally how a character develops a particular theme, rather than pure game mechanics. Want a personal force aura as well as a projectable force wall? Buy Armour defined as a 'force aura' & Force Field + Wall for the wall. Simple, & no duplication of powers needed. Your other suggestions make the point just as well.

[Alex Green]

Nicely put Ayre ::thumbup

Indeed.

I think we've beaten this one to death.

New Question/Issue: I get Q6. All examples are based on one dot in the power.

A) I have a level 3 power. Can I get an extra on that and then buy Mastery on that, or am I limited to 2 extras OR Mastery?

For: The Extra is "free" so it is still level 3. Mastery only raises it to level 4.

Against: Mastery would make it a level 4 powe with a "free" extra.

I have a level 2 power with an extra (Q-Bolt + MIRV). It was level 3, is it now level 2 again?

C) How much Experience do I need to pay to put Mastery on that? Is it "3" (raise power only), or "6" (raise power and raise free extra).

My view that order of purchase shouldn't matter; The ST shouldn't need to do anything but look at the actual character sheet to see what is what.

Thus level 4 powers can't have extras, regardless of when they were purchased.

Level 2 powers with an extra are always level 2 powers, regardless of when they were purchased.

And the amount of experience players pay for a power should be the same regardless of order so the answer to "C" is 6.

[Finbar]

Gee...An easy one. I hope.

Obvious Caveat: I'm assuming a by-the-book response.

A: If you are buying them at the same time, it doesn't matter. If you are buying them at different times, you would need to buy the Mastery second, as it by the rules it increases the level automatically.

B: Personally, I'd rule yes. Of course, I'd give you the option for the extra first ::blush ...

C: It's only going to cost the 3 XP (For Q6, QB+MIRV is a Level 2 power; Mastery makes it a Level 3 power, and the upgrade cost is (9-6=) 3 XP).

Keep in mind that Mastery isn't just another extra; a QB with nothing but Mastery I costs 1 QP to throw at full force, has 1000xthe range, and damage is doubled (no change in duration). As such, the possible extra cost of raising the level automatically is worth it...

Damn you, Alex Green: A character with Q6 apparently can put an extra on a Q4 power, which makes it Level 5. But said character can't have a Level 5 power! But he can ::wacko <slapping self>. Can't we say that it's a typo and leave it at that? ::huh

FR

[Alex Green]

Finbar: A: If you are buying them at the same time, it doesn't matter. If you are buying them at different times, you would need to buy the Mastery second, as it by the rules it increases the level automatically. ... Damn you, Alex Green: A character with Q6 apparently can put an extra on a Q4 power, which makes it Level 5. But said character can't have a Level 5 power! But he can

Why exactly can he? To me it seems that if it is illegal in one way, then its illegal. But that's why I asked this. ::devil

Finbar: B: Personally, I'd rule yes. Of course, I'd give you the option for the extra first ::blush ...

I'm assuming all this is done with experience, since the rules are more clear for nova points (and since you normally can't go Q6 out of the box).

Finbar: C: It's only going to cost the 3 XP (For Q6, QB+MIRV is a Level 2 power; Mastery makes it a Level 3 power, and the upgrade cost is (9-6=) 3 XP).

But that "Free" extra cost 6 exp at level 2, but it would cost 9 exp at level 3. Don't we have to raise it's level too? Doesn't "Free" only apply to its level not being raised?

[Finbar]

Finbar: A: If you are buying them at the same time, it doesn't matter. If you are buying them at different times, you would need to buy the Mastery second, as it by the rules it increases the level automatically. ... Damn you, Alex Green: A character with Q6 apparently can put an extra on a Q4 power, which makes it Level 5. But said character can't have a Level 5 power! But he can

Why exactly can he?  To me it seems that if it is illegal in one way, then its illegal.  But that's why I asked this.  ::devil

Okay, some background for the studio audience: There's this handy-dandy chart on page 120 (APG) that allows a nova with Q6 to put an extra on a Level 4 power; however, as per the other handy-dandy chart on the same page, you need Q8 to have a Level 5 power. So...either it's a typo or the ST has to make a call on it. I'm all for discounting the ability for a Quantum 6 character to add an extra on a Level 4 power...

Finbar: B: Personally, I'd rule yes. Of course, I'd give you the option for the extra first ::blush ...

I'm assuming all this is done with experience, since the rules are more clear for nova points (and since you normally can't go Q6 out of the box).

Oh, and before I forget; that "free" extra costs you two XP (the 3 XP difference between a Level 2 power and a Level 3 power would be refunded, but it costs you 5 XP for a Level 2 extra, for a net debt of 2 XP). So each time the character goes up in Quantum, fel free to audit the character ::devil ...

Finbar: C: It's only going to cost the 3 XP (For Q6, QB+MIRV is a Level 2 power; Mastery makes it a Level 3 power, and the upgrade cost is (9-6=) 3 XP).

But that "Free" extra cost 6 exp at level 2, but it would cost 9 exp at level 3.  Don't we have to raise it's level too?  Doesn't "Free" only apply to its level not being raised?

←

Which means that my math is messed up here as well...Yeah, the "free" only applies to the level not being raised...If you raise Quantum, and threw Mastery I at your QB+MIRV is going to cost:

-3 Refund For Level 3 to Level 2

+5 Cost for MIRV extra

+3 Cost to upgrade Level 2 to Level 3 (Mastery I is an automatic level increase)

for a total cost of 5...

Sound okay?

FR

PS: I am so adding GDAG to my sig...

[ProfPotts]

A) I have a level 3 power. Can I get an extra on that and then buy Mastery on that, or am I limited to 2 extras OR Mastery?

I'd say Mastery bumps it to level 4, no matter what order you buy things in - so no 'free' Extra on top or anything. Mastery should be enough for any newly Quantum 6 Nova, let's not be greedy here... ::rolleyes ::wink

I have a level 2 power with an extra (Q-Bolt + MIRV). It was level 3, is it now level 2 again?

My answer would be 'no' - the concept of 'refunding' XP seems pretty illogical to me. The simple answer I'd go for is when you hit Quantum 6 you just get to pick a free Extra to apply to that power - keeping it the same level as before, & representing your newly increased power base. No need to refund XP or NP or to mess with the power's level.

This is a classic example of game theory Vs. practical application in the game, IMHO.

C) How much Experience do I need to pay to put Mastery on that? Is it "3" (raise power only), or "6" (raise power and raise free extra).

Following my suggestion above this one's easy - the normal level 3 to level 4 additonal cost.

[Timeslip]

Finbar,

It is possible that the "1" in the chart for how many Extras it takes to raise a L4 Power to L5 at Q6 is there for reference more than anything else; it lets players know that, indeed, 1 Extra on a L4 Power will raise it to L5 at Q6. Doesn't mean that the Q6 character can actually do so -- it doesn't -- but just to make it crystal-clear. The "N/A"s in the chart are only there where the base Power Level is out of the reach at the given Quantum rating.

That said, with three points of weakness on a Power, you can take an Extra without raising the effective Power Level. So, if your Q6 character absolutely has to have Affect Others on your Crosstime Travel to make the concept work, start hitting those weaknesses.

Prof. Potts,

I think that, with regard to Extras on a L3 Power and Mastery, it is a matter of the order in which they are taken. For example:

Timeslip, a Temporal Manipulator, achieves Q6. Shortly thereafter, she gains more precision in her application of Temporal Manipulation (an L3 Power), and buys the Sliding Extra. Because she is at Q6, the Extra does not raise the Power Level of her Temporal Manipulation, and thus it remains a L3. Later, she has an epiphany, gaining a suddenly expanded understanding of Temporal Manipulation, and buys the Mastery Extra. Mastery raises the effective Power Level to L4...even with the Sliding Extra, as the Power was only L3 with Sliding. In effect, it is "grandfathered" in.

Now, had Timeslip gained Mastery first, raising her Temporal Manipulation to L4, she could not then add the Sliding Extra until such point as she reaches Q7.

It is worth noting that, even though Mastery raises the Level of a Power by one, it apparently is a qualified raising of the Power Level. It does not, for example, do so for the purpose of the quantum cost of said power; otherwise, the reference to "Level 1 powers cost no quantum to use" would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, as there could be no Level 1 power including Mastery.

[brilyn]

It is possible that the "1" in the chart for how many Extras it takes to raise a L4 Power to L5 at Q6 is there for reference more than anything else; it lets players know that, indeed, 1 Extra on a L4 Power will raise it to L5 at Q6. Doesn't mean that the Q6 character can actually do so -- it doesn't -- but just to make it crystal-clear. The "N/A"s in the chart are only there where the base Power Level is out of the reach at the given Quantum rating.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. ::wink

As for the Mastery: imo, Mastery raises the power a lvl. Period.

I mean, simply from a play balance perspecting, why is (Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery ok, but (Disintegrate+Mastery)+MIRV not?

They way I'd run it: Either both are viable, or neither are. It's simply inequitable otherwise.

[Finbar]

ProfPotts: Keep in mind that the extra isn't free; there is an actual XP cost involved. If it weren't for that, I'd have no problem just "slapping it on." But because there is an actual XP cost, and given that XP aren't as easy to pick up in Abberant, I have no problem giving a refund of sorts.

JessiLaurn: It's an obvious error. I'm not trying to be jerk, it's just that it's obvious someone continued a chart without thinking it through.

brilyn: For a Q6 character, the (Disintegrate+Mastery)+MIRV isin't viable; it's a Level 5 power. The other issue isn't that either combo is more or less viable; it's a concern over how much it costs.

(Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery (adding the two extra is just 7 XP for the MIRV, and 9x-7x for Mastery I, and making it a Level 4 power) is cheaper than (Disintegrate+Mastery)+MIRV (it still costs 9x-7x for Mastery I, but the the MIRV now costs 12 XP, and it's now a Level 5 power (and isn't legal besides)).

(Note: QB is a Level 2 power, Disintegrate is a Level 3 power...)

FR

[Alex Green]

So are you claiming that (Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery isn't a Level 4 power with an extra that doesn't raise the level?

[BlueNinja]

I'd say Mastery bumps it to level 4, no matter what order you buy things in - so no 'free' Extra on top or anything. Mastery should be enough for any newly Quantum 6 Nova, let's not be greedy here...

There are a number of powers that some extras would not be covered by Mastery in the slightest. For example, Holo or Mirage - the extras such as Extra Sense aren't even remotely covered by Mastery. Unless, of course, your ST allows you to lower the bonuses on Mastery to have it include some of the power-specific extras.

I know our ST believes that Mastery is too strong. Level 1 is the only one allowed, and it's trimmed back quite a bit from what's listed in the book. If Masteries stack, then a Q-Bolt with all three levels is like the Quantum Inferno in a smaller area.

[Finbar]

As I've chosen not to reply to Alex Green (see sig; and I ignore confusing double negatives anyway), I'm replying instead to his message. ::rolleyes

Clarifying: (Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery I is a Level 4 power with a free extra, costing 24 XP/14NP for that first dot. (Disintegrate+Mastery I)+MIRV is a Level 5 power with no free extras, costing 30XP/18NP for that first dot and illegal for a Q6 character.

ProfPotts: It does matter when the extras are added! It doesn't for Mastery (as, like you said, it automatically raises the level), so that aspect is OK, but it does matter for the other extras.

FR

[Finbar]

There are a number of powers that some extras would not be covered by Mastery in the slightest.  For example, Holo or Mirage - the extras such as Extra Sense aren't even remotely covered by Mastery.  Unless, of course, your ST allows you to lower the bonuses on Mastery to have it include some of the power-specific extras.

Huh? None of the extras are covered by Mastery; Mastery doesn't apply to extras. It applies to the power. Now, some of the extras are modifed sorta by Mastery (Range, for example, now gives 10 km per dot of power), but only by virtue that the extra modifies the base power (Range gives 10 m per dot), which Mastery then modifies (range goes from meters to kilometers).

Consider Armor: Superheavy: The character still spends three quantum (ST call?), and gains a (6+8=) 14 soak and +2 diff to be hit, but loses 6 from Initiative, 4 m walking, 10 m running, and loses 2 dice from Dexterity-based rolls (Mastery doubles all effects!).

Absorption: Energy Magnet is another fun one: The range is now Quantumx10 kilometers, and you gain two Str per success and one per Health Level drained, but are still limited to your dots in the power for how much you gain.

But these are because an extra modifies the base power, and then Mastery modifies that. In essence, an extra is an extra is extra, regardless of whether it power specific or not.

FR

[BlueNinja]

Ok, Finbar, either I didn't explain what I meant clearly, or you didn't understand me.

Mastery gives improved range, improved area, improved duration, reduced quantum cost, and doubles successes. It is essentially five extras all rolled up into one. After all, if you have the Q6+, why bother to get Increased Range or Increased Duration, when you can just buy Mastery? Yes, it raises the power level by one - but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to buy Mastery by itself than even just two of these extras when you're at Q6.

My point was that several powers have specific extras that aren't boosted by Mastery. But IMO, anyone who is a "Master" at a particular power should have some way to acquire those extras for their power by trading weaknesses on what the Mastery gives them. I would expect someone with Holo Mastery to be able to fool any and all senses with a moment of notice - even though their detail on some senses would be less than perfect (due to not actually buying the extra, but relying instead on Mastery).

Oh, and here's a question I had about the Q6+ bit - if you buy a level 2 power with an extra (I'll stick to Holo + Extra Sense, for the moment) and then buy up to Q6, does the power remain at level 3 (because that's what is has been) and limit the number of extras as a level 3 power, or does it drop down to a level 2 power (because it's is originally a level 2 power with only one extra, which at Q6 is not enough to bump it up to a level 3)?

[Alex Green]

Clarifying: (Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery I is a Level 4 power with a free extra...

Good. Now that we've clarified that, my next question is:

What level of Quantum must you have before you can have a level 4 power with a Free Extra?

[Nullifier]

Mastery gives improved range, improved area, improved duration, reduced quantum cost, and doubles successes.

Um. Actually, if you read the text I believe that mastery 1 doubles the effect of the power, not the successes. This applies directly to your example of Holo Mastery, because if the effect of Holo is to fool one sense, than doubling it would make it, theoretically, fool two senses. This applies to powers like Quantum Imprint as well, effectively doubling the number of things that can be copied at once, as well as the limits of how many dots in each can be copied. This is why Mastery is the uber-extra. Messing around with it with strengths and weakness is possible, but in most cases unnecessary. ::biggrin ::cool

[BlueNinja]

Well, the examples given in the book for the Mastery extras are a little more vague. The extra soak from armor or invulnerability are simply doubled, while Q-bolt has the number of dice doubled, and Stun has the number of successes multiplied after the die roll. I suppose it's one of those things up to the ST to decide, but it seemed unclear to me.

[Finbar]

1) How are they vague? The effect of Stun is "(Quantum+Sucesses) levels of damage, only to daze or knock out the opponent" (Abbie core book, page 223); Mastery multiplies that by 2, 10 or 20...Holo is actually your best example, as the effect (strictly speaking) increases the difficult to determine if the illusion is real or not; the single sense is simply part of the "Description" text. Just for the ake of making a point...

2) In response to something someone asked above: Q7 for the first "free" extra for a Level 4 power.

[BlueNinja]

The effect of Stun is "(Quantum+Sucesses) levels of damage, only to daze or knock out the opponent" (Abbie core book, page 223); Mastery multiplies that by 2, 10 or 20

Why does Stun w/ Mastery multiply the number of successes after the roll, and Q-bolt w/ Mastery multiply the number of dice before the roll? ::confused ::brick

I see what you're saying about Holo though; Holo + Extra Sense + Mastery can hit four of five senses. Pretty good investment, huh? You can rent yourself out as a holodeck, as long as no one tries to eat anything. ::laugh

[Finbar]

1) The reason it hits after the roll is because the effect is based on the successes; in effect, Stun Attack's effect is to "wuffle" your damage so all you do is stun the target.

This is a Level 2 power why? Oh...Ranged attack, and with any of Mega-Dex, MIRV, Area Effect, and/or Spray/Jet, it's a rather effective crowd control power, especially when you realize that most novas don't have more than a few points of extra armor...Interesting that...

2) Okay, time to throw out my own silly question: Let's take...I don't know, Spines. They convert a nova's clinches, holds, and tackles to Lethal damage, to a maximum of 10 dice. Although I'd like to see a Body Modification with Mastery on it, I know it can't happen (they don't have levels).

However, Shapeshift does.

So, what happens when a Shapeshifter throws Mastery 1 on it, and then uses Spines? What (if anything) gets doubled? Better yet, what if I'd bought Armor Piercing (for every attack success, two levels of soak are ignored)?

FR

[Alex Green]

RE: Mastery and 2x Effect.

Comment: As with all level 4 powers, anything involving Mastery should/will include negotiating with the ST.

I suggest the following methods of increasing the powers effect.

1) In most cases you should double the final outcome (Q-Bolt, Flight, Healing, Density Decrease, etc).

2) In some cases, especially for resisted powers, double the succ the nova gets before doing any other calculations (Teleport, Domination, Q-Leech, Telepathy, Q-Construct).

3) In rare cases you should double the effect of every dot (Density Increase).

4) In other rare cases you should double the number of effective dots of the power (Growth)

5) Bodymorph should be handled case by case, but will normally be in category #1.

Density Increase almost works like #1, meaning you could just double the soak and get the same effect. The problem is that you double the Strength and Soak (which is a big increase), but only double the Mass (which isn’t). So his strength and soak increases dramatically but his mass hardly changes.

Growth is much worse. Method #1 doubles his Strength and Stamina gains (which is huge and would normally require a doubling of the number of dots that he has). Height would only double which is effectively one more dot’s worth. And finally, mass would only double so his effective Density would actually DECREASE by x8. If you are going to double his Strength then make him the size and mass appropriate for that Strength.

Bodymorph’s effect should probably be determined by it’s underlying powers. Someone who has BM: Light (Forcefield, Flight) would gain twice that. A common alternative suggested is two double the number of “mimic” dots granted to the Bodymorph, but Mastery is supposed to increase the power, not dramatically increase the versatility without increasing the power. Our BM: Light guy gains more power by having Mastery on Forcefield and Flight. Giving him dots in Teleport and EM Vision is a dramatic increase in versatility, not power.

[Alex Green]

Clarifying: (Disintegrate+MIRV)+Mastery I is a Level 4 power with a free extra, costing 24 XP/14NP for that first dot. (Disintegrate+Mastery I)+MIRV is a Level 5 power with no free extras, costing 30XP/18NP for that first dot and illegal for a Q6 character.

FR

Good.  Now that we've clarified that, my next question is:

What level of Quantum must you have before you can have a level 4 power with a Free Extra?

2) In response to something someone asked above: Q7 for the first "free" extra for a Level 4 power.

So, in other words,

if you have Q6 and (Disintegrate+MIRV), you CAN NOT buy Mastery for it until you get Q7.

[ProfPotts]

With the whole Q6 + Level 3 power + Mastery + Extras queation there are two ways to go about it - which have both been argued here: the 'step by step' method, where what stage the power has developed to is important, & the components which make up the power are not; & the 'mathematical' method, where the components which make up the power are important, & the order in which they were applied is not. Either could be used, depending on how you interpret the rules, but I feel the important thing in any individual game is to apply the same ruling across the board. This has an impact on other Q6 powers as well...

The 'step by step' method

Example 1:

A) You have Quantum 6

You have a level 3 power

C) You add an Extra - the power is still Level 3

D) You add Mastery, the power is now Level 4

Total: Quantum 6 + Level 3 + Extra + Mastery = Level 4

Example 2:

A) You have a level 1 power

You add an Extra - the power is now Level 2

C) You reach Quantum 6

D) You add another Extra - the power is still Level 2

E) You add another Extra - the power is now Level 3

Total: Quantum 6 + Level 1 + 3 Extras = Level 3

The 'mathematical' method

Example 1:

Quantum 6 + Level 3 + Mastery = Level 4 power

Example 2:

Quantum 6 + Level 1 + 4 Extras = Level 3

To my mind the mathematical method is, by its nature, balanced - since everything always needs to add up, no matter when or in which order it was added to the power.

The step method, to my mind is, by its nature, prone to min-maxing - since you can gain or lose more than the sum of the parts depending on when or in which order they are added to the power.

Either method can work for a game, as long as everyone knows before hand - I prefer the game balance presented by the mathematical method myself.

Other Extras Vs Mastery:

I wasn't trying to suggest that Mastery covers everything covered by other Extras, but rather that insisting on being able to take both Mastery as well as other Extras at Quantum 6 seems like pure greed on the part of a player - usually known as 'power gaming'. Again - this is fine for some games, but not the way I'd go.

'Free' Extras:

Badly worded on my part. Extras aren't 'free' in terms of XP, no - I really meant 'free' in terms of leveling the power or not. I'll re-phrase...

A character who has paid full-price for an Extra which has leveled one of his powers, & who then gains Quantum 6, should just be allowed to add another Extra (allowed by having high Quantum) to that power without the power leveling again, & for the 'one dot of power' XP cost, rather than the full amount.

Example:

A Nova buys the Combat Teleport Extra for his Teleport, raising the power to Level 3 & costing him the difference between his dots worth of a Level 2 power in XP & his dots worth of a Level 3 power in XP.

That Nova then reaches Quantum 6. Although his Teleport + Combat Teleport power should now be Level 2 & only cost him a single dot's worth of XP, he gains neither the lower level, nor any XP back. He can, though, pay for a single dot's worth of the power & gain the second Extra he's due (maybe Reduced Quantum Cost) without the power's level being raised any more.

This, I feel, is the easiest solution, & doesn't require XP re-funds - which make little logical sense to me. After all, a character could hit Quantum 6, get an XP refund from each of his powers which have Extras, & then spend that XP on something totally unrelated to his power increase... makes no sense.

[ProfPotts]

Some additional thoughts:

In practical game play these issues are unlikely to crop up much. Consider the character who starts the game with Quantum 5 & 5 dots of, say, Elemental Mastery - the type of character who is meant to be 'Master of Flame' or something. He saves up 20 XP & buys his 6th dot of Quantum (Tainted, naturally - adding 2 Permanent Taint to that he already had from chargen). He looks at his theme power - Elemental Mastery & sees he has two options:

Option one - add an Extra to the power costing (the text is actually unclear here - the examples of 'one dot of the power' don't match actual XP costs) 7 or 8 XP.

Option two - add Mastery 1 to the power, costing:

(12 + 9 + 18 + 27 + 36 =) 102 - (9 + 7 + 14 + 21 + 28 =) 79 = 23 XP

Either cost can be halved by taking yet another dot of Permanent Taint, but this guy's already looking pretty Tainted (presumably he took at least a few dots at chargen - minimum of 4) - at least 6 by this point.

The point I'm making is that such a character aiming at Mastery isn't too likely to bother with an Extra on his way there (he needs all the XP he can get). With 7+ Permanent Taint he can get from chargen to a 5 dot Mastered Level 3 power with a 'mere' 32 XP - but at a normal maximum of 7 XP per story that's already taken him at least five whole stories during which he's spent XP on nothing else. He's also got at least 3 aberrations choosen not by him but by the ST. It can be done, but it's a tough road to travel.

Many characters wanting Mastery will prefer to just spend the XP to take a single dot of a completely new power + Mastery, since it's so much cheaper & quicker than leveling an existing power with many dots in it. But not all STs are going to be happy with that approach - since Mastery is meant to be just that - mastering the character's existing talents.

The other thing to recognise about the Mastery 'Extras' is that what they are, essentially, is a way to express the normal powers in the books as 'Authority', 'Supremacy' & 'Consummate Mastery' level powers, instead of having to re-print higher level versions of every single book power. Unlike other Extras they not only always increase the power's Level by one each, they also have their own independant Quantum minimums - identical to the blanket minimums for Level 4, 5, & 6 powers. So, even a level one power, like Bioluminescence, with added Mastery 1 is much more than a simple 'Level 2' power - it's 'Bioluminescence Authority' - a whole new ballgame of Quantum power.

[brilyn]

I pretty much totally concur with Prof.

The step-by-step method = teaching your players to 'calculate' the best 'purchase order'.

I mean, if I had Disintegrate and Quantum 6, what kind of a sucker am I to buy Mastery? I mean, I should just buy MIRV first, and then in a Story or two buy Mastery. No point in being a chump and just buying Mastery.....

[Finbar]

I, on the other hand, prefer the methond that gives refunds, but that's because:

1) Obvious Champs background (so I feel more comfortable with it);

2) Prevents a lot of arguments from coming up more than once; and

3) When I do the ocassional audit, it simplifies the process (and not jut for players trying to get away with things; there are some people that just have problems with the math, and this doesn't require me to track when extras were gained).

So, as long as yoiu pick a method, and are consistent with it, you should be okay.

I still want to know what happens with Spines bought through Shapeshifting+Mastery 1...

FR

[Alex Green]

I mean, if I had Disintegrate and Quantum 6, what kind of a sucker am I to buy Mastery? I mean, I should just buy MIRV first, and then in a Story or two buy Mastery. No point in being a chump and just buying Mastery.....

The part where I forsee problems is when the ST has to explain to player "B" that he can't have the same power as player "A" because, although they both have Q6 and Disin, "A" has a cooler character and smarter player.

[Alex Green]

1) In most cases you should double the final outcome (Q-Bolt, Flight, Healing, Density Decrease, etc).

2) In some cases, especially for resisted powers, double the succ the nova gets before doing any other calculations (Teleport, Domination, Q-Leech, Telepathy, Q-Construct).

3) In rare cases you should double the effect of every dot (Density Increase).

4) In other rare cases you should double the number of effective dots of the power (Growth)

5) Bodymorph should be handled case by case, but will normally be in category #1.

I still want to know what happens with Spines bought through Shapeshifting+Mastery 1...

This is where talking to the ST comes into play. But the real question is "Shapeshift mimics other powers, so do you get more succ to mimic more powers, or do you get Mastery on the powers you mimic".

My first comment is that Shapeshift doesn't really mimic powers, you just get to buy dots to represent the stuff you shift into. My inclination is to just call this a catagory #2, double the succ for you to buy stuff.

I think this works best for the power and the player.

Example:

If I roll three succ with method #1, I get Armor+Mastery, Flexibility+Mastery, and Regen+Mastery. Regen+Mastery doesn't do anything more than normal Regen. Flexibility+Mastery might, and only might, translate into Flexibility x2.

With method #2 I have 6 succ so I can get Armor x4, Flexibility, and Regen.

[ProfPotts]

The 'Effect' listed for Shapeshift is...

'Allows character to alter her shape; the degree of alteration depends upon the successes achieved.'

To me that means Shapeshift + Mastery 1 gives you a greater degree of alteration - i.e. 2 succeses for each one rolled. The Mastery doesn't do anything to what you happen to be simulating. You only pay 1 QP to shift, & it lasts (Quantum + power rating) scenes or hours, rather than turns.

Whether you can use your Shapeshift successes to buy powers with Mastery 1, or any other Extra for that matter, is up for negotiation with the ST - which is pretty much how Shapeshift always works anyway. In game terms you are altering your shape, not buying a fistload of powers - a guy with Mastery 1 chaging shape into, say, an eagle will have more successes to play with to simulate the eagle's form, but won't be able to use his successes to simulate anything the eagle form wouldn't grant him normally. Just as you can't shapeshift into an eagle & expect to be allowed to buy HyperFlight, you won't be able to buy Flight + Mastery 1. Why? Because eagles just can't fly that fast, & the only reason you can fly at all is because you're in the shape of an eagle.

So - you roll your Shapeshift dice pool, get 2 successes to assign per one success you roll, & apply one of them to Spines. What you get is... Spines. That's it - just 'cos you have Mastery 1, doesn't mean the shapes you take can break the established physics of the game.

If you look at the examples of 'Effect' under the different levels of Mastery, they are all based off what is written in the 'Effect' row of each power description. Notice how Force Field only gets the Mastery bonus on its rolled successes, not the base Quantum, even though the Quantum is listed in the Effect row too, while those powers with Quantum inside the bracketed values in Effect get to boost that as well - this would seem to indicate that the Mastery Effect-boost isn't totally universal, & does apply mostly to 'successes' rolled & similar things. Again - WW is unhelpfully unclear, but at Quantum 6+, as various people have noted, pretty much everything is a negotiation with the ST anyway. The harder calls will be those with no values listed for Effect.

But - the 'double effect' of Mastery 1 doesn't double everything about the power (not in the examples at least): so, for example, Absorption + Mastery 1 would 'convert damage or energy into Strength at the rate of two dots per success, to the limit of twice the damage done' at most, it wouldn't add the bonus to Strength & another Attribute as well just because its effect is 'doubled'.

[Finbar]

You know, I'd really hate to see some of the suite powers with even Mastery I...

So, let's try something a bit more obnoxious: Let's say I have Elemental Authority (APG, a Level 4 power). Can I apply weaknesses to it to get it down to a Level 3 power, and then apply Mastery I to it? More importantly, what's the minimum Quantum required (it's minimum of 7, the minimum for a Level 4 power (6), or 8)?

(Yes; I'm power-gaming a bit here, but it's necessary sometimes to see what can be done with a system; put it through its paces, so to speak.)

FR

[Sphere]

In theory? Yes you can. But I can't see a good GM letting it be done. I'd smack the Player with my kewl Golden Rules skillz and move on ::biggrin

[Alex Green]

Let's say I have Elemental Authority (APG, a Level 4 power). Can I apply weaknesses to it to get it down to a Level 3 power, and then apply Mastery I to it?

In theory, yes, in practice:

1) It's hard to see what non-trival weaknesses you put on it (you need 5).

2) Reducing the level doesn't reduce or even change the Q min.

3) And then we have that bit about negotitation with the ST. Most wouldn't allow it.

[Finbar]

Aww....

FR

[SkyLion]

Hey! Im relaxing on my day off by dredging up old threads! I actually couldn't finish reading the whole thing (started getting tedious) but I share finbars experience with Champions. I personally feel that if you are going to say that extras can't be turned off then you should allow for multiple different power effects. So for example if a character is designed from a fire mage or human torch concept, you would take q-bolt+area to be "throwing fireballs." However numerous comics as well as other excellent superhero games would allow thiis same character to have a "flamethrower" effect, or even just a small discreet "firebolt". NOW if this was the case and someone used a disrupt on them, it *should" disrupt there ability to "project flame" period from all three powers.

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Also, persoanlly I don't like that you can't choose not to use an extra since it makes things less versatile. Say for example armor-piercing claws. What if you want to "pull your punch"?

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Again, these are just my opinions and sorry if they were already covered past the 10th page or whatever. Other games besides aberrant (like champions) seem to have more depth (rules wise) where things are balanced out waaay better and yet still can simulate any idea (WW ripped off the one mechanic for many different power sfx based idea from Hero Games)

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Also for the record, Special effects are NOT just window dressing. They actually do create wholly different powers that have real in-game consequenses. FOR EXAMPLE:

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Just as Q-bolt and Immolate are define mechanicly (and at the quantum level in game) as the Nova is causing harm through manipulating reality via her node. However the way these Novas are doing it is completely different. One might use gravity and another electromagnetism. A Q-bolt is not a Q-bolt is not a Q-bolt precisely because the power is a manifestation of individual will.

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Nova A is fire based. She has a Q-bolt (no extras) and immolate. The book clearly states that since her powers are defined special effects wise as fire, she may be doused with water.

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Nova B. same power (mechanics wise) yet based on radiation. Water ain't gonna work here folks.

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Another great example from champions weaknesses is that a sonic based character would be useless in outerspace or a vacuum chamber without a medium for the soundwaves to travel through.

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So for characters with multiple special effects based on their nova ability and creativity to work with more than one medium Id say that multiple insatnces of powers should be allowed, provided it is truly based on concept and not a cheeser merely for power play. Any smart ST should be able to see the difference.

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For example a fire and ice character as has been pointed out could have two separate bodymorphs. Stopping her ability to throw fire disrupting her q-bolt (explosion/fireball)wouldn't negate her ability to blast you with a Q-bolt (armorpiercing/icecicle).

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I believe this was the original intent that was behind player-defined powers and the idea of extras creating separate powers. Once again a nod to champions.

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Thank you.

[Nullifier]

Hey! Im relaxing on my day off by dredging up old threads! I actually couldn't finish reading the whole thing (started getting tedious) but I share finbars experience with Champions. I personally feel that if you are going to say that extras can't be turned off then you should allow for multiple different power effects. So for example if a character is designed from a fire mage or human torch concept, you would take q-bolt+area to be "throwing fireballs." However numerous comics as well as other excellent superhero games would allow thiis same character to have a "flamethrower" effect, or even just a small discreet "firebolt". NOW if this was the case and someone used a disrupt on them, it *should" disrupt there ability to "project flame" period from all three powers.

The EA and EM power suites cover this issue; you want a lot of firepower, take EM:Fire, however this:

Also for the record, Special effects are NOT just window dressing. They actually do create wholly different powers that have real in-game consequenses.

.....

So for characters with multiple special effects based on their nova ability and creativity to work with more than one medium Id say that multiple insatnces of powers should be allowed, provided it is truly based on concept and not a cheeser merely for power play. Any smart ST should be able to see the difference.

I agree with for many reasons, but the simplest is logic. ::rolleyes ::cool

[Finbar]

Any way to add an extra that essentially acts as a meta-extra? Something like, say:

Extra Shift I: Buy the power as it would cost with X+1 extras. The "X" are the extras that the nova can switch between; he may not use those extras at the same time. For example, consider Quantum Bolt with MIRV and Extra Energy Type bought with this Extra by a nova with Quantum 6 (sort of a requirement as a lower quantum-nova would need to access a Level-5 power, and that's just not possible).

The first two extras would make it a level 3 power; adding the Extra Shift makes it halfway to a Level 4 power. This extra would enable the nova to choose between two energy types or MIRV, but not MIRV and the other energy type at the same time.

Extra Shift II: As above, but the nova must have Extra Shift I already. This allows the nova to use any extra he has in any combination; thus the nova above could use Q-Bolt+MIRV, Q-Bolt+Extra Energy Type, or Q-Bolt+MIRV+Extra Energy Type. Note that the Q-Bolt would now be a Level 5 power.

Mastery Note: This gives an added option for Mastery (for those times when Mastery may be too much). However, note that not using Mastery means that none of Mastery's effects apply (i.e., you don't get the reduced Q-cost if you aren't using Mastery).

Bringing it all together: OK, so you have Q8 and want a Q-Bolt with MIRV, Extra Energy Type, Mastery I, and the flexibility of choosing any of the three (i.e., Q-Bolt+MIRV, Q-Bolt+EET, Q-Bolt+Mastery I, Q-Bolt+EET/MIRV, Q-Bolt+MIRV/Mastery I, Q-Bolt+EET/Mastery I, and Q-Bolt+All Three). By using the ESI and ESII extras, you have a Level 5 power).

[Note: A Q7 couldn't do it because a Q7 can't have a Level 5 power (MIRV+EET makes it a Level 3 power, ESI+ESII makes it a Level 4 power, and Mastery always moves it up to the next level. The same logic applies to Q8, but the Q8 can have a Level 5 power.]

If it helps...

FR

[Alex Green]

What you are talking about is creating an extra, call it "select", which allows you to fully control the power, i.e. you can control whether or not other extras are active.

[metaphysician]

*phew* Read through the entire thread.

Re: mastery, I tend to favor the "refund/order irrelevant" method, as does, I think, my GM. In addition, I can think of a bunch of reasons why one would want to get both an extra and mastery on a power, the big one being "reduced quantum cost so I can use my L3 power for free." As long as attempts to do this with a ton of one dot powers get the hairy eyeball, it shouldn't be a huge balance issue: assuming a 4 dot or higher power, the "free" extra would cost at least 15 XP.

Re: QBolt and duplicated powers, I actually think, if anything, its the "extra energy mode" extra thats too weak. I mean, compare it with, say, the Enhanced Effect Invisibility extra. I'd change it to "Variable Energy Mode," with an extra energy format for each dot of the power.

Another issue of interest: Q6+ novas and mega-attributes. As near as I can tell, all they get is the opportunity to buy more than 5 dots in each mega-att. Compared to getting Mastered powers, this is a bit weak.

So, thoughts? Solutions? Special Q6+ enhancements that make the problem go away?

[Alex Green]

assuming a 4 dot or higher power, the "free" extra would cost at least 15 XP.

Free Extras probably cost the same no matter how many dots in the power you have. It's bad that we don't have any examples and that the language is so darn confusing, but I think what they meant was "the first dot" (what they said was "the dot").

Special Q6+ enhancements that make the problem go away?

In the fan supliments we have those.

Re: mastery, I tend to favor the "refund/order irrelevant" method, as does, I think, my GM.

Thank you.