opnet [OpNet] Ethics and Morality

[Guest]

hey, I'm new to this place and I got a problem I need help with. You guys seem willing to give advice to other dudes here so I figure there's no harm in askin', right?

Okay, I know you guys bitched about heroism and morality to hell an' back, but I got a moral problem.

See, I know that there's this kid that's gonna die, in the worst way, an' I have the power to stop it. Thing is, this kid could grow up to be either a salvation for, or a destructive force against, Novas. I can't tell which for sure. So what do I do?

If I was a baseline, the answer would be simpler. The ethics of baselines would urge me to save the kid, no matter what, but like Ashnod said a while ago, we ain't baseline no more.

So, what should I do?

[SpartanClear]

find some one who can see the future and ask, i hear tell of some oracles.

isn't being a god fun?

seriously- you need to provide more background info, what you just said applies to everyone equally, even you.

the moral choice is to save life. always. and to subtly and not so sutbly make sure that life isn't wasted.

[ 06-24-2002: Message edited by: SpartanClear ]

[Jager]

Save the life, knowing that your responsibility doesn't end with that one act. Hope for the best because the future is never set in stone.

[Violette 'V' D'Aronique]

It's better to live with the regret of knowing a life was saved, than to life with the regret that you did nothing.

Save his life.

Or, as Callisto once sang on Xena:

"The fates have a fix on you , they can play tricks on you. We deal in truths you're too troubled to face.

Gamble the worth of you on the rebirth of you, don't turn away don't start to fade...

What's still unwritten, you can erase...."

[Babylon]

You don't get to choose his path. Only whether he get the opportunity to walk it or not. Does it really seem like there's a choice involved?

Then choose.

[Alex McKenzie]

Don't think that merely because you're not a baseline, that baseline ethics/morals are no longer useful. Quite the contrary. If your "new" ethics can't solve your problems, you might like to check your old ones. They never really disappear, despite what some Terats might like to think.

At any rate, it seems you're looking for someone to give you the excuse to do what you know you need to do, but is against what you believe. Don't bother. This person has a 50/50 chance of being your saviour. I don't know about you, but those are good odds.

Save the child. The consequences will occur as they do. At the very least, think pragmatically. If it turns out he'll destroy novakind, you can always kill him later, but if he was a saviour instead, you've rather screwed things up if you've killed him, haven't you?

[Nimrod]

Fucking Xena? And people get ticked off at me for quoting The Matrix.

You will be dealt with shortly, Precog Man.

[Jager]

You're worried about a Precog with an ethical dilemma?

Me, I'm worried about the one with no ethical dilemmas what-so-ever.

[Walker]

Quote:

You're worried about a Precog with an ethical dilemma?
Me, I'm worried about the one with no ethical dilemmas what-so-ever.

Jager has anyone ever told you you should take up comedy.

Seriously though, seeing the future is a tough one. It is vague and uncertain, for one thing. The veils of time never part fully, you're never sure exactly what you'll see and if it will have any relevence to what you want to know. Another problem is that you may want reassurance of something and turn out to be badly disapointed by your vision.

Should you try and change the future, indeed CAN you change what you've forseen. It is a real mindbender I can tell you. It seems that the very vision itself changes the future. I posit that we Precogs experience the Quantum Wave Function for a particular event in its pre-collapse state, a sum of all possibilties if you will.

The vision subtly alters the future development of the wave function without causing its full collapse. Only action based on this pre-knowledge causes the collapse of possibility into reality.

I judge things on a case by case basis relating to my visions. I would save a life AND explain the neccessity of doing good to the child just for the hell of it. To NOT try and rescue this life might be the trigger that makes the child a Nova hater. After all how would this child feel seeing a Nova who could save him walk away? What if he/she survived afterwards?

I try and always go for a solution that raises the sum total of human happiness, even if just by a small amount.

[Apep]

Sheesh, did you really think anyone would tell you not to save the kid?

[Guest]

Don't save the fucking kid.

Happy, Apep? Seriously, Kitten. I love ya.

I reiterate; don't save the fucking kid. Yeah, yeah, I know. "Blahblah sanctity of life blahblah responsibility blahblah he's only a child blahblah children are our future blahblah death on your conscience."

Let me tell you something, Prophet. The first one is always the hardest. It gets easier after that.

I love playing Devil's Advocate.

-- Avenger

[Nimrod]

Yeah, old Avenger would know about saving kid´s lives, eh?

[Father Ryan]

Exactly.

Old Avenger.

I do not see any sign of him in this imposter.

Good, perhaps his foul presence no longer taints this world.

[Nimrod]

Hey, Father Ryan old buddy old pal; you an impostor too, or is the ass-kicking Padre back to take names?

Seriously, "Prophet" (very original, by the way); why the hell do you show up here with this question? Is it some sort of wanking off in front of the Terats, to show off how much you try to be a Nova as opposed to a Baseline? Or are you trying to evoke some sort of shitstorm?

Why the hell do you want us to tell you anything? I don´t give a fuck what you do, and contrary to what many weak-ass bleeeding-heart posers would state, neither does anyone around here (with the possible exception of one or two people). There´s a lot of whining, but not many of the stately Homo Sapiens Novus will get off their quantum-powered asses to actually do something.

Here´s the answer, Precog Lad: whatever floats your boat. Feels right to save the kid? Go ahead, be a hero. You don´t really care but feel that you should? Grow a fucking spine. You don´t care at all? Then why whine on these forums, you little moron?

How hard is that?

Now fuck off before I quote Babylon 5 on your worthless ass.

Oh, and Ryan; watch your back. You´ve gut guts up to here, but it only means that there´s so much more to spill on the ground before you.

[Guest]

hey, I'm new to this place and I got a problem I need help with. You guys seem willing to give advice to other dudes here so I figure there's no harm in askin', right?

Okay, I know you guys bitched about heroism and morality to hell an' back, but I got a moral problem.

See, I know that there's this kid that's gonna die, in the worst way, an' I have the power to stop it. Thing is, this kid could grow up to be either a salvation for, or a destructive force against, Novas. I can't tell which for sure. So what do I do?

You have three choices.

1. Leave it be.

2. Save the kid.

3. Kill the kid yourself thus removing the threat you perceive and saving him or her from the horrible death.

However I consulted a friend with precog powers and this is what she told me.

Your visions say this child is destined to either be a saviour or destroyer of novas but you don't know which. That's pretty extreme and suggests that a whole chunk of the future rests on choices that will be made by this kid and are not fixed. Allowing him to be removed from the equation would be dangerous. When you meddle with forseen futures it can be bad. When you meddle with unforseen ones its alwaysworse.

She also says that she knows this from experience.

She wonders if you can give her places and dates for the events you've forseen so that she can try to home in on them herself.

Twist

[Jager]

You want to fuck up a Precog? Introduce another Precog to the situation. They can either

a) completely muddle both of their visions by acting on the same event, or

they completely miss each other's involvement in the incident, making their visions perilously inaccurate.

That's why so few precogs focus in on the same events (unless they're really big). Exactly why this is the case, I don't know. Maybe is subconcious avoidance, maybe its a quantum safety trigger. Any ideas, anyone?

[Guest]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
You want to fuck up a Precog? Introduce another Precog to the situation. They can either
a) completely muddle both of their visions by acting on the same event, or
they completely miss each other's involvement in the incident, making their visions perilously inaccurate.

That's why so few precogs focus in on the same events (unless they're really big). Exactly why this is the case, I don't know. Maybe is subconcious avoidance, maybe its a quantum safety trigger. Any ideas, anyone?

Really?

That is odd Vivienne regularly shares visions with two other precogs. Infact I'd say she always does. She has a knack for clarifying other peoples visions with her own but she rarely if ever sees anything someone else hasn't seen first and given her focussing information on.

Twist

[Guest]

Don't get me wrong here, but this sounds like schrodegger's cat. The very meddling in a situation that is yet to happen happens the way the observer percieves as his or her reality.

Let me explain further. A precog can only see events play out like a chess game. They see the moves play out and reach a conclusion based on what's going on. This nova is a nexus, a bridge between 2 possible worlds. This leads to a problem. Do we interfere, and possibly lead the world to ruin. Or let the child die and save us all? Or perhaps these aren't the choices in front of us.

The only way we can let the best possible thing happen, is to let it happen. Interference only leads to more problems.

[Jager]

One of the things I love about novas is that there is always something new.

She boosts and clarifies other Precogs' visions? Man, that has to be great. Maybe she can help Prophet out.

[Guest]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
One of the things I love about novas is that there is always something new.

She boosts and clarifies other Precogs' visions? Man, that has to be great. Maybe she can help Prophet out.

When Twist told me about this discussion I had to come and see it for myself. To be honest, Jaeger, two precogs having the same vision does usually mess things up. I've seen it happen but my talents are slightly unusual and seem to work both ways. I don't ALWAYS focus in on others visions but my own visions are hazy at best. However other precogs seem to be able to clarify my visions the same way I clarify theirs. Though unfortunately I can't clarify the clarified vision any further if you catch my drift. It's not a boost precisely. A scientist friend of mine theorises it's some sort of low grade empathic power that somehow compensates for the general inconsistances between visions.

While I stand by what I said I am curious about the open ended nature of the vision Prophet reported. This child may save novas, destroy novas or die. He knows what might happen if the child lives but what if he dies? Has he seen possibilities for that as well? Most precogs have closed but changable visions. His open ended ones are as unusual as my own quirks. If I can clarify the various possible outcomes it might help his decision.

Vivienne

[Guest]

Quote:

The very meddling in a situation that is yet to happen happens the way the observer percieves as his or her reality.

It has been my experience that most prophecies are self-fulfilling . . . that is that the awareness of the prophecy sets in motion the chain of events that will ultimately lead to it's conclusion. The best way to avoid that kind of prophecy is to ignore it. Do what you think is the right or at least the necessary thing to do and leave the prophecy or vision alone. The future is unstable and a myriad of events could render the child irrelevant to any of us.

Or, to put it more succinctly: Read Oedipus Rex and you'll understand.

[ 06-27-2002: Message edited by: Mr. Nashoba ]

[Guest]

I've ben reading your replies people, an' I got a few things I'd like to say, but todays the day. It's do or die time an' I still ain't got it all figured out yet. I'll talk at ya later, I got a bus to catch.

[Guest]

Oh my. Things are going to get ugly.

If only I knew where this guy was I could stop him. Anyone here of not interfering with cause and event? He may send us down a slippery slope doing what he is about to do.

The fur on my tail is standing on end here folks.

[Guest]

Quote:

He may send us down a slippery slope doing what he is about to do.

Not really. Too much reliance on visions of probable futures generally causes people to ignore the events of the now - and paralyzes them. Witness the current dilemma. Because of a vision of a possible future, Prophet is incapable of making a decision he probably would have no difficulty with otherwise (or so I assume).

Prophet, for the most part, I have to agree with Twist and Nimrod: save the child or kill the child, but do not walk away now that you are involved and have ability to affect the outcome.

If you wish for my opinion: save the child. It is one thing to kill an enemy, it is another to sacrifice an innocent. Regardless, make a decision now and act on it. If you are unable to overcome your indecision based on viewing probabilities, you degrade yourself and you will never be an individual, but will wind up as another's tool. I have met very few independent precognatives - most of them are in the power of someone else, whether they realize it or not. Their reliance on future visions slowly erodes their ability to function in the now and they wind up merely passing data on probabilities to people who are not so limited and are willing to act.

[Walker]

Quote:

It's do or die time an' I still ain't got it all figured out yet. I'll talk at ya later, I got a bus to catch.

So Prophet, how are things turning out?

Quote:

Too much reliance on visions of probable futures generally causes people to ignore the events of the now - and paralyzes them.

I quite agree, just look at the number of people who are incapable of making any change in their life without consulting the I Ching, Tarot Cards, Astrology and the like. My own visions tell me things but they are no panacea, its still up to me to make a choice, to act or not to act. Prophet at least seems to be compelled to act based on his vision. I have never seen a future Hitler or Stalin, so any comment I make is based on pure speculation.

[Argent_]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Nashoba:
It has been my experience that most prophecies are self-fulfilling . . . that is that the awareness of the prophecy sets in motion the chain of events that will ultimately lead to it's conclusion. The best way to avoid that kind of prophecy is to ignore it. Do what you think is the right or at least the necessary thing to do and leave the prophecy or vision alone. The future is unstable and a myriad of events could render the child irrelevant to any of us.

Or, to put it more succinctly: Read Oedipus Rex and you'll understand.

Or Le morte d´ Arthur; Mordred did not turn to his path towards "evil deeds" until someone helpfully informed him of his fate. Such is the dangers of precognition.

Actually, I have similar experiences when it comes to the malleability of future events as opposed by seemingly wild cards such as a PreCog; either the equation excludes the involvement of the PreCof itself, and so charts the future event most likely to occur had the prophecy itself never been uttered - thus setting a whole new series of interlinking events in motion - or the prophecy itself is included as a factor directly connected to the final result; as always, it´s hard to say. I leave the questions of "fate" to others - I´m not of a very fatalistic bent - but if you´re so inclined, you couls definitely read a great sense of irony into the process.

According to a precognitive associate of mine, we just narrowly avoided a flux of infinite possibilities - which effectively would have locked us in a "moebius strip" time loop of about 0.43293 seconds and thus effectively negating known existence except for a chosen few individuals. This situation was narrowly avoided by instigating an ever-so slightly different (and surprisingly subtle) series of seemingly unrelated key events; funny old world.

A theory of hers is that such a temporal anomaly could actually be caused by PreCog intervention in everyday events. As I lack the perceptions to challenge this theory, I can but wonder.

[Babylon]

Then too not every precog operates in exactly the same manner or under the same restriction anymore than every nova capable of projecting damaging energy does so in the same way or under the same restrictions.

Vivienes abilities as she describes them seem similar to those of Prophet while the nova called Wizard seemed to do something very different from either. Yet effectively all three have a method of divinng future events.

Another theory, Ardent, is that precogs are influencing events away from unproductive results simply by an awareness of them being a deadend. It gets a little too "chicken or egg" for my tastes but its an equally valid theory.