Aberrant RPG - Never spend Quantum again!

[pscion]

How would a campaign be shaped if all Quantum powers were rolled without/instead of have any point expenditures?

What of Psis could do the same?

Would this provide more freedom, allowing more cinematic effects, or completely throw the game outta whack?

When I used to ST Trinity with my cousins I immediately hated the idea of spending Psi to activate the effects and instead tweaked the powers to derive their results solely upon rolling "dem d10s".

A failied roll or Botch would instead eat a point of Psi or Quantum, when all were finished, the character would suffer "burnout" basically unable to tap their powers until atleast one point comes back (maybe in an hour or so, or after a brief meditation).

Before then, a point could be spent to achieve 2 automatic successes (which are more powerful than giving 2 extra dice).

The downsides may include an orgy of die rolling, but if the ST is man or woman enough to handle more powerful players, then go for it!

[Alex Green]

Ouch.

Off hand, I’d say that in abby…

1) All maintenance powers effectively just became permanent.

2) Instant powers, such as Q-Bolt and Telepathy just became much more impressive, especially with extras. Expect more elites to have Q-Bolt + Area.

3) Totentanz was probably just kicked off the top spot.

4) Regeneration just became unbalanced, especially in combination with Forcefield or other high soak types.

In general, abbies just became a LOT more godlike. That’s not terrible for the setting, but it does make baselines that more puny.

[pscion]

Ouch.

Off hand, I’d say that in abby…

1) All maintenance powers effectively just became permanent.

2) Instant powers, such as Q-Bolt and Telepathy just became much more impressive, especially with extras.  Expect more elites to have Q-Bolt + Area. 

3) Totentanz was probably just kicked off the top spot.

4) Regeneration just became unbalanced, especially in combination with Forcefield or other high soak types.

In general, abbies just became a LOT more godlike.  That’s not terrible for the setting, but it does make baselines that more puny.

Thanks for the reply.

1) All maintenance powers effectively just became permanent.

Why not limit them to a number of Turns based on say Quantum score? Or maybe they can last for the Scene if not too invasive?

2) Instant powers, such as Q-Bolt and Telepathy just became much more impressive, especially with extras.  Expect more elites to have Q-Bolt + Area.

Got me there ::unsure, I'm guessing they would still have to be aimed, and/or Resisted, right?

4) Regeneration just became unbalanced, especially in combination with Forcefield or other high soak types.

Again, time may have to become a limiting factor, maybe restricting the usage per Scene? I dunno?

Ever since converting my "RPG-eligion" to White Wolf, I have been poisoned by constant point-spending. How did older RPGs handle the usage of powers? WEas it all dice rolls? Anyone know?

[Finbar]

Generally, the older games used some sort of point system. Those that didn't (DC and Marvel), use rolls that could have a wide range of potential effects....

FR

[Bahamut810]

Heroes and Heroines and Heroes Unlimited both have 'free powers' like you are talking of.

It is a whole different playing field compared to aberrant. You dont have to wait anyone out...

[metaphysician]

A middle ground alternative, that has some of the properties of this idea without quite the same imbalance:

Every nova gets to spend [Quantum] free qp each round. Any spending above that comes from the pool.

Thus, you can effectively make as much use of maintenance powers as you want, but stuff like Quickness and Regen ends up eating points anyway.

[Blue Thunder]

This is kind of like Star Wars D6. You never had to spend any points when you used Jedi Force powers. Ever. It was great.

Granted, Jedi powers were never extremely powerful, but still...

[SkyLion]

Given the cost of powers Ive always thought that the amount of juice you start eith is a little low for the genre...activate a few powers, throw a few q-bolts, and youre dry...not at all like the comics! Imagine this happening to the human torch....but we never see that! He can flame on or off at will, fly around for hours, throw or spray as much fire as he wants and manipulate it into cages and barriers and the like....

,,

I propose that every ST enacts the "Wheres the Juice?" Option from the APG.

[Alex Green]

The thing about the Torch is if he's flying around for a few hours then that's not in combat. If he's throwing big flaming zaps then that's normally not for hours at a time.

[SkyLion]

The thing about the Torch is if he's flying around for a few hours then that's not in combat. If he's throwing big flaming zaps then that's normally not for hours at a time.

Doesnt matter...Ive seen him get doused, but in Marvel Comics no one usually ever runs out of "juice"...

[Alex Green]

Doesnt matter...Ive seen him get doused, but in Marvel Comics no one usually ever runs out of "juice"...

I have, several times. Cyclops put out about 30 zaps and then ran out. Wolverine has run out of regen juice more than once. Dazzeler used to on a pretty regular basis. Ditto Scarlet Witch. Ditto the Torch although that was usually after a nova flare.

And this is *out*. It was much more common to see people get tired, but it was never clear whether that was a juice thing or general tired thing.

I can't say that I've ever seen the Hulk run out, or Colossis/Thing/Juggernaut for that matter. One of the book fictions made a point of that, the Avengers and the X-men and the Hulk all go toe to toe for a while and at the end the big green guy is still fresh and ready for more while everyone else is not.

Long term battle is extremely rare, and most heroes have only a few powers to run. One of the evil things an ST can do is have a fight, then have another, then perhaps even have another.

[SkyLion]

well yeah the Nova Flare....but Torchie throws around alot more Flame than your average Quantum Pool would allow (considering he uses Immolate, Flight, and Elemeental Mastery). On the other hand, in the Marvel system his Flame Control is at Unearthly, the same rank as the Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic. So we can assume that the accident granted him Q6 Mastery over Fire, and pays reduced cost for everything...

,,

My essential point is that the standard Aberrant quantum pool is less than what is normally seen in the comics....its much harder to play the kind of extended city-spanning brawls that we so no and love.

[Alex Green]

well yeah the Nova Flare....but Torchie throws around alot more Flame than your average Quantum Pool would allow (considering he uses Immolate, Flight, and Elemeental Mastery). On the other hand, in the Marvel system his Flame Control is at Unearthly, the same rank as the Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic. So we can assume that the accident granted him Q6 Mastery over Fire, and pays reduced cost for everything...

If we were going to build the Torch by abby rules we'd use bodymorph for flight & immolate so he only runs one maint power. Everything else is either elemental mastery or q-bolt.

And yes, he has hit Q6 occassionally over the years although whether or not he's at it now depends on the writer. Normally I'd say that he isn't.

If we give him 5 dots in BM, then he only pays maint every 10 rounds. If all he's doing is throwing q-bolts then he could throw one every round and last for 13 or so rounds without any problems. 13 rounds of combat is a long time.

However, he also has a strong code against killing and he has a lethal attack, so I suspect he normally isn't throwing his full attack. That means he's paying 1q per bolt instead of 2q. That means he could last about 26 rounds. MUCH longer if he'd go HTH.

When was the last time we saw him throw 26 firebolts? For that matter, when was the last time we saw him throw 13?

[metaphysician]

I'd say he's always Q6, to cover the nova flame; the question is whether or not the rest of his powers are up to snuff.

And, please, don't quote the Marvel RPG as evidence. The fact that it gave the Human Torch and Silver Surfer the same power rank is evidence that the designers hadn't a clue.

[SkyLion]

The Human torch doesn't bodymorph....he only immolates. He is still human under the sheet of flame.

,,

And the human torch is one of the most powerful of marvels superheroes. He should have Unearthly ranked fire abilities. Silver Surfer is more powerful...the Power Cosmic is way more versatile and can create nearly any effect. When it comes to dishing out damage however it just means they roll on the same column...

[ProfPotts]

In the early days of the Fantastic Four the human torch running low on juice was actually one of his character traits - mostly, I think, to help illustrate the fact he was the 'kid' of the group. After 'playing' for forty years then, yeah, he has few juice problems...

Just 'cos people don't build characters in Aberrant who can last all day, doesn't mean it can't be done. One of the best, but least used, Extras is a little thing called 'Reduced Quantum Cost' (P. 232). This halves (rounded down) the QP cost of a power. Level 2 or 3 (for those who can add Extras to level 3 powers) powers cost 1 QP to use, level 1 powers cost 0. Now, combined with one of the least used rules (from P. 179):

'Of course, there's no requirement that a character use a power at full strength; he can save one quantum point by using it at half power.'

We see that any power (less than level 4) a character slaps the Reduced Quantum Cost Extra on can be used for zero QP: i.e. for as long & as many times as you want to.

This actually simulates comicbook heroes better than most Aberrant characters: in an average Aberrant game PCs try for maximum results on each & every dice roll & power use (I guess it's just an RPGer's nature... ::wink ); in an average Marvel-style comic book the characters use their powers all day, but only 'cut loose' when they have their backs to the wall.

So, build the Human Torch with Immolate (Reduced Quantum Cost), Flight (Reduced Quantum Cost), & Quantum Bolt (Reduced Quantum Cost) & he can be all flame-on for as long as he wants to.

Of course the other Aberrant power oft overlooked which is relevant is the all-important Quantum Regeneration (P. 219) which allows a character to 'refuel' much faster. As long as your ST allows you to spread your regeneration of QP evenly over time (instead of coming in big batches on the stroke of each hour) then a Nova with Quantum Regeneration can regain at least some QP with just a few of minutes of rest between battles. E.g. a really experienced character (like, say, the X-Men's Cyclops - who we know has specifically trained himself to be able to store more energy) could have Quantum Regeneration 5 with the Double Extra: for each point of Willpower he spent (& Cyke would have a lot) he'd regain an extra 20 QP per hour - or 1 QP every 3 minutes. Ultimately such a character could, in theory, blow a full 10 Willpower to regain 200 QP in an hour - or 1 QP every 6 turns. Not bad really, especially if combined with the stuff above so that he's only ever spending QP when he goes 'all out' anyway...

[SkyLion]

thats what I call creative accounting! ::laugh

,,

Seriously though...the reduced q-cost extra is an extra, which means that not only are your powers suddenly way more expensive to buy but it sort of breaks its own rule...A level 1 power with the RQC extra is now level 2 meaning you still pay 1 point for it, unless you say that that is the ONE extra that doesnt count for q-cost expenditure...

,,

to me its an example of how Aberrant took concepts from other games (variable special effects and extras...taken from Champions) and slapped it onto the White Wolf system, with mediocre results.

,,

However, despite my bitching, dont think I dont love the game, in spite of and because of its various quirks... ::happy

[Alex Green]

The Human torch doesn't bodymorph....he only immolates. He is still human under the sheet of flame.

That's just the marketing department trying to keep people human.

Similarly, Captian America, Daredevil, and the Taskmaster are all *way* beyond peak human for their athletic abilities dispite what Marvel likes to claim.

Seriously though...the reduced q-cost extra is an extra, which means that not only are your powers suddenly way more expensive to buy but it sort of breaks its own rule...A level 1 power with the RQC extra is now level 2 meaning you still pay 1 point for it, unless you say that that is the ONE extra that doesnt count for q-cost expenditure...

It figures the q-cost on the base power. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as a level one power with RQC. Mastery works similarly.

[ProfPotts]

thats what I call creative accounting!

Hmmm... Not so much 'creative accounting' as 'how the rules work'...

The text states that a level one power with the Reduced Quantum Cost Extra costs no QP to use: therefore, (as Alex points out) the halving must be based off the original, pre-Extra, QP cost. So yes, like added Duration with a power max lasting more than a turn, this is a (logical) exception to the usual way the rules work.

The text also states that QP calculations with the Reduced Quantum Cost Extra 'round in favour of the character' - which is why you can halve the cost of your Quantum Bolt to 1 QP, then further reduce that by using half power to zero cost.

Honestly, it's not over the top if you consider that for the cost of that Extra your Quantum Bolt could be hitting an Area or Explosive (leveling buildings instead of individuals), or have a practically unlimited range (Increased Range makes your long range 'line of sight' - with Mega-Perception that can be pretty damn far...).

[SkyLion]

That's just the marketing department trying to keep people human.

Similarly, Captian America, Daredevil, and the Taskmaster are all *way* beyond peak human for their athletic abilities dispite what Marvel likes to claim.

,,

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I wasnt saying he wasnt beyond human..I was saying he doesnt bodymorph into flame....he is a human(oid) wrapped in flames.

,,

Bodymorph means turning *into* something else...hence the term body-morph...

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Hmmm... Not so much 'creative accounting' as 'how the rules work'...

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It was a joke Potts.... ::tongue

[metaphysician]

The Human torch doesn't bodymorph....he only immolates. He is still human under the sheet of flame.

,,

And the human torch is one of the most powerful of marvels superheroes. He should have Unearthly ranked fire abilities. Silver Surfer is more powerful...the Power Cosmic is way more versatile and can create nearly any effect. When it comes to dishing out damage however it just means they roll on the same column...

The Silver Surfer has blown up planets and stabilized suns. The Silver Surfer has lasted longer against Tyrant than all the other cosmic facing him, including Gladiator. The Silver Surfer has either utterly demolished or utterly ignored the Hulk on at least three separate occasions.

If you want a longer list, I can summon Mark, but long and short is: the Human Torch doesn't have anything even approximating the Silver Surfer's power. Not even close.

[Alex Green]

Bodymorph means turning *into* something else...hence the term body-morph...

Yes and no. You gain some of it's properties, but not all of them. The most extreme example is with Bodymorph Light since with one dot the PC obviously doesn't get DD5 and a pack of other things.

While it is possible to built the Torch with linked powers (Flight, Immolate, INV:Fire, & Forcefield), I seriously don't see the point. Bodymorph:Fire can easily do everything we see him do. What he doesn't have is Density Decrease, so he's still solid. Thus he can still be punched by supers willing to take the immolate, etc.

Marvel has a long history of letting their marketing department make heroes more 'relateable' to the people reading it. Captain America is constantly described as only being peak human in everything when no human could even in theory run a 1 minute mile or effortlessly block bullets or make 4 bounce attacks with a thrown object. By Abby's more defined standards he'd have Mega-Dex. Ditto Taskmaster, etc.

[metaphysician]

Not just Cap. Essentially every "nonpowered" superhero would have at least a dot each mega dex and wits, usually also stamina.

[astronomer]

It's true that the Human Torch has Un fire mastery and can throw nova blasts, but comparing him to the Silver Surfer is silly. SS has Un cosmic power, which is an open-ended variable pool. Add to that his board, personal toughness, and centuries of experience in Galactus' service, and naturally he can outperform mortal superheroes on a consistent basis. Just 'cause you've got an Un power doesn't mean it's a cosmic omnipower. Experience allows you to use that omnipower on a foe's weakness, outmaneuver him, etc. It's more than a simple narrow-themed power. Look at Divis Mal's powers, for example. In a sense, his breadth of abilities and the Q-supremacy to add anything he might lack is just as scary as his raw power! ::wink And as for Cap or Taskmaster having human level abilities, they've been described as being top-end peak humans, Olympics-level in their physical abilities all the time. While giving them 5s in all physical attributes and all relevant abilities is the simplest way to represent this, giving them a mega-dot or two gives them that over-the-top heroic feel. Or you could make them stalwarts out of Adventure, since that's the power level they represent.

[metaphysician]

The problem is, this implies that the Silver Surfer *only* has ultimate flexibility.

When he also has sheer god-like power on top of that.

Or, put another way, being able to throw out any energy blast you want, and being able to throw out an energy blast that can shatter a planet, are two different things. Norrin Radd happens to be capable of both.

[Chuckg]

And ISTR that in the recent 'Annihilation' dust-up, the Surfer was busting *solar systems*.

Not to mention that in the recent FF, cosmic entities on the order of *Epoch* are *fleeing in terror* from the Silver Surfer.

[SkyLion]

Yeah well thats all that newfangled stuff...

,,

When the Marvel RPG was written, it was all up to date...they even had annual compendiums to track how people had changed or improved...

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And if you think the Torch is crazy...Galactus's other herald Nova has Shift Z Fire generation!!! ::ohmy

[metaphysician]

Not really. Some of Norrin's best feats were back in the early 80s.

I do agree, the ShZ fire control was excessive, especially as it came with a highly artificial limitation.

[astronomer]

Yup, the heralds are all reaaaally powerful and veeery flexible compared to all the mortal heroes, who are more game-balanced theme designs. The humans that can push limits are tech-oriented, like Dr. Doom, Iron Man, and Mr. Fantastic, who can often come up with the gadget du jour, or the really rare types like Phoenix, Binary, or the High Evolutionary, who stumble onto or evolve into cosmic power. Most heroes can't take on the Silver Surfer one-on-one, which is a good reason for groups. As to the more recent stuff, the bar keeps going up, I guess. ::rolleyes I'm not sure about this planet-busting business, although I can think of a few ways he <could> do it. Terrax could with his ability to keep ripping chunks out of a planet, Firelord or Nova could by melting down to the core. Gotta love that cosmic omnipower!

[Blue Thunder]

Personally, I find it hard to take any character on a surfboard seriously. He can have all of the powers of the cosmos if he wants, but he's still on a surfboard.

[Alex Green]

RE: Surfboard

G took that out of his subconscious.

RE: Surfer's power level.

It's been very strongly hinted if not stated outright that the Surfer was always/normally/typically holding back the vast bulk of his power while on Earth. He sends out a powerbolt that knocks all of the Avengers on their asses and Ironman comments that he was pulling it. In combat he was able to explain to Nova the step by step way to destroy a star. Faced with combat with a spaceship/city-ship the size of a very large city someone pointed out that while he'd probably win and destroy the city, he'd also kill everyone on board and most of them were innocents. He destroyed a moon by running into it at the speed of light.

[metaphysician]

Yup. Remember, Norrin Radd is basically a pacifist. He usually tries to avoid hurting even people who are trying to kill him. And letting off planetbusting blasts inside the Earth's atmosphere, is a good way to kill everybody.

[Chuckg]

Personally, I find it hard to take any character on a surfboard seriously. He can have all of the powers of the cosmos if he wants, but he's still on a surfboard.

Dude, he can ride a vacuum cleaner for all I care -- if he can blow my home planet up by pointing a finger, I'm not gonna say one single word about it.

[astronomer]

Heh. Surfing has a certain resonance with West Coast Americans, which is why Marvel just couldn't resist. And it's somewhat different than the uber-tech transportation methods. I guess SS could do space travel without it, using his cosmic powers, but with the board why bother? As for his demonstrated vs potential power levels, .....it's true that he's done things beyond his usual repetoire when push came to shove. Thank God most cosmic beings don't give a hoot about puny Earth. ::rolleyes

[metaphysician]

Hey, Silver Surfer regularly cares about Earth. Thats why he spends time there.

( of course, these days, Earth should be *glad* the cosmics mostly don't care. . . because right now, most of the big bads could eat the place, and with Reed insane, half the supers hiding, and alot of the big guns missing. . . )

[Blue Thunder]

Actually, Earth is a magnet for cosmic beings and all forms of cosmic shenanigans. Alien races routinely try to invade it, many supers are actually aliens, several alien races have been defeated/saved by Earth supers, the universe's destruction is regularly halted by Earth supers, etc. If Marvel were more realistic, Earth would be some kind of tourist attraction to the universe, or some kind of mecca. Aliens would want to visit the planet that managed to stop Galactus, fight off Skrull invasions, give birth to Howard the Duck, etc. Oh, and last time I was reading X-Men (this would be before all of that Onslaught nonsense turned me off to Marvel) Mojoworld was entirely obsessed with Earth's X-Men and Professor X was Lilandra's consort.

In related news: Lilandra...shwing!

[Psilord]

IIRC the girl who would become Nova (Frankie Raye?) had the same powers as the Human Torch, just a bit weaker. I think it was even implied that her powers being weaker was a matter of experience and training. That said, when she was made a herald of G she became far more powerful than before.

Still, being likely far more powerful than HT, Nova was said by G himself to be less powerful than SS. IIRC, G said that Nova lacked the power to hurt him (Galactus) and that SS Had the power but not the skill. To me, SS Having the raw power needed to hurt G (by his own words) clearly shows SS being faaaaaaaar and away beyond the limits of HT.

SS was also the most powerful of all heralds, by Galactus' own words, with the exception of Morg who was created to be SS's equal in power. Add into that the fact that SS even has the ability to grant powers to others and he is definitely a few classes above HT.

[Alex Green]

Frankie Raye's problem was she was created when G was extremely weak. SS on the other hand was created before G realized the problems with creating very powerful minions.

Basically G overshot the mark with SS and undershot it with Frankie.

[Chuckg]

And you still had scenes in SILVER SURFER comics like:

(only slightly paraphrased)

Nova (Frankie Raye) -- 'There's too many of them!'

Silver Surfer -- 'So just blow the planet up!'

Nova -- '..... I can *do* that?'

Silver Surfer -- 'DUH! What part of 'Herald of Galactus' did you miss?!? Hell-O...'

At this point, she then blew the planet up. Uninhabited planet, of course.

The small armada of whatever space baddies they were fighting still didn't like it, natch.