opnet [OpNet] To the Utopians Here

[Hugin]

Teknokat had a point. So, here we are.

Ms D'Aronique and other Utopians lurking here. Some discussion has been made on the Elite thread as to the Terat philosophy and the varied membership of the Teragen. The Utopian approach to Teras has always disturbed me. V is the perfect example, as far as she is concerned ever member of the Teragen is guilty of any of the crimes that some of the individual member may or may not have commited. Though members such as Count Orziaz and myself have never commited an overt crime of violence we are lumped together with Geryon and Co.

Now, I pointed out to Ms. D'Aronique that members of Utopia were guilty of some shameful crimes themselves. She dismissed this with the statement that coming from myself any accusations of Utopian wrongdoing are hollow. So, I guess until Jesus, Mohammed, or Buddha comes and delivers a press conference on the sins of Project Utopia that Ms. D'Aronique will remain blameless and morally pure.

However, 'V' you brought up my current stance and a past stance I took in regards to Costas and Lasher. I would like to clarify something. Geryon, Leviathan, and from what I know, Apep, are Terats who use violence as a tool. Their violent actions are designed to bring about a desired end. From what I understand the only emotional release thata they receive from their actions is the inevitable adreneline rush and perhaps the satisfaction of putting away a perceived enemy of the One Race.

Costas was and Lash is, as I understand, addicted to their violent actions. They receive their joy in the letting of blood, the causing of pain. They adopted the Terat banner more as an attempt to excuse their actions. Geryon murders because of his beliefs, Lash adopted beliefs to excuse his murders. There is a difference.

Now, I am sorry that many are unable to look beyond the violence of some of our members and completely discount the message. Yes, violence is perhaps more present than is good in the long run, but our movement is still young. We will mature. But in the meantime, violence does have its purpose.

[Babylon]

Quote:

Teknokat had a point.

Well that must have come as a surprise to the little sneak-thief. That the great man whose work she shamelessly ripped off was actually big enough to agree with her on something.

Quote:

Costas was and Lash is, as I understand, addicted to their violent actions.

Exactly!

They're sociopathic primitives lashing out at a world for their own sick kicks. You're a great man and you don't belong with those freaks. You were a highly respected member of an organization dedicated to bringing peace and prosperity to an entire world, not just a tiny but flashy minority.

Did you know that the methods you used to predict the current trend of hiring mercenary groups like Devries to conceal dangerous technologies one step ahead of the S&T is required reading in T2M training? Or that the same theorums are used to priorotize the sites for S&T investigation? Or that your self-analysis is the basis for the training techniques we're pioneering to speed the educational process in third world nations? That's just off the top of my head and doesn't even mention your contributions in actually understanding the black tech or in making the sociological threat assessments to determine if certain technology should be proscribed. None of this would be possible or as thorough if not for your selfless contributions.

You were a great man that made incredible contributions to making the world a better place with a tangible future. Why are you wasting your time with amoral mercenaries, freaks and thieves! So-called friends that manipulate you and then claim to have done it for your own good. Not one of these people, not ONE of them, has done a single thing to tangibly improve the future for humanity or novas. They're too busy with their own personal agendas to be bothered.

These people and their only I understand the truth monographs are beneath you!

You were gone from Utopia by the time I arrived but I want to work with the man that smashed the conspiracy to develop direct brain stimulus technology. Yes, that might have had beneficial application but the threat of incurable addictions were much more likely. And you were the one that saw that. Think of all the great things you did back then. You could do them again. You could be there to guide us in making the world a better place both today as well as tomorrow. Work with us. Show our next generation what a real hero is.

Babylon
T2M Europe

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

[Teknokat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Babylon:
Well that must have come as a surprise to the little sneak-thief. That the great man whose work she shamelessly ripped off was actually big enough to agree with her on something.

Not particularly. When you're faced with the facts, it's not easy to argue your way out, you know...

Oh, and could you please drop the burglary case already? I not only brought the damn cell back the day after (with instructions on how I got in), I apologized to Prodigy (five times!), and have given him quite a few choice tidbits of information. I like to think that I've at least reduced my overall debt here!

[Violette 'V' D'Aronique]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
V is the perfect example, as far as she is concerned ever member of the Teragen is guilty of any of the crimes that some of the individual member may or may not have commited. Though members such as Count Orziaz and myself have never commited an overt crime of violence we are lumped together with Geryon and Co.

Quote:

Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique
However, you keep saying that your movement is all about self-evolution and walking a challenging path, but for every Orzaiz you have out there you have two Geryon wannabes. It seems very much to me, especially in light of all the public propoganda that your people put out, that the "violence and revolution" factions outweigh the "philosophy and evolution" factions quite a bit. And if I seem to judge your movement unfairly, I think it's because those voices are the loudest and the most numerous.

Stop putting words in my mouth I never said, Prodigy. At no time have I said all in your movement were like Geryon. I said your movement has more Geryons than it does Orzaiz's. I said I tend to judge your movement by the loudest and most numerous actions, which tend to be those of the Geryon-like and Lash-like members.

Do you just make up your own truths and apply them liberally to all associated with the Project? Christ, I even apologized to you for inadvertantly associating you with some of your less-respected comrades.

You're the one making up lies about me. You're misquoting me and drawing poor conclusions from my statements.

Do you want me to just come out and say it? Fine, I'll say it. Some of your people have some interesting things to say. Unfortunately, they are contradicted by the majority of the others. I'm sorry if I'm judging your movement by it's most public face, but I don't have anything else to judge it by. You keep making it sound like your movement is full of people like Orzaiz. Where the hell are they, then?

Oh, and as a counterpoint, could you please direct me to the so-called conspiracy you've declared exists within Project Utopia. You and nearly all this forum insist it exists, but for all your talk, none of you have managed to prove a thing. Where's your evidence? Where the hell are these conspirators?

Oh, and Babs, it's great to hear from you!

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Violette 'V' D'Aronique ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Violette 'V' D'Aronique:
Stop putting words in my mouth I never said, Prodigy. At no time have I said all in your movement were like Geryon. I said your movement has more Geryons than it does Orzaiz's. I said I tend to judge your movement by the loudest and most numerous actions, which tend to be those of the Geryon-like and Lash-like members.

So, you judge all of us (the movement) based on the actions of some of us (the violent members)? So, I am defined by Geryon? I am therefore, like, Geryon? Where is our disagreement then?

Quote:

Do you want me to just come out and say it? Fine, I'll say it. Some of your people have some interesting things to say. Unfortunately, they are contradicted by the majority of the others. I'm sorry if I'm judging your movement by it's most public face, but I don't have anything else to judge it by. You keep making it sound like your movement is full of people like Orzaiz. Where the hell are they, then?

They are out there, writing articles and giving interviews. However, baseline media is much more concerned with ratings. And despite our best wishes, showing Geryon's elimination of the mayor of Tampa for the sixteenth time does attract more viewers than my latest disertation on the need for a seperatist movement.

Quote:

Oh, and as a counterpoint, could you please direct me to the so-called conspiracy you've declared exists within Project Utopia. You and nearly all this forum insist it exists, but for all your talk, none of you have managed to prove a thing. Where's your evidence? Where the hell are these conspirators?

Oh, and Babs, it's great to hear from you!

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Violette 'V' D'Aronique ]

I am everso sorry if the data that has been made available to the public already is not enough to convince you of some wrongdoing. The sterilization procedures have been undeniably linked to several Rashoud clinics. The social evidence behind the manipulation of business and tech markets is blatant to any Nova with the intellect required to see it. Have you ever investigated the life expectancy of high ranking Utopian officials who leave the company for one reason or another. It's shockingly bad.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: James 'Prodigy' Meehan ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Babylon:

You were gone from Utopia by the time I arrived but I want to work with the man that smashed the conspiracy to develop direct brain stimulus technology. Yes, that might have had beneficial application but the threat of incurable addictions were much more likely. And you were the one that saw that. Think of all the great things you did back then. You could do them again. You could be there to guide us in making the world a better place both today as well as tomorrow. Work with us. Show our next generation what a real hero is.

Babylon
T2M Europe

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

Babylon, I make this suggestion for your own good. While Utopia and it's director's are not quite as Stalinesque as some would believe they do frown most intently on anyone who makes any emphasis to the work that I performed while under their embrace. Yes, while under their thrall I did manage to do some good.

I still do, in some small way.

However, the basis for my belief once I left Utopia has always been that Novas saving baselines and giving them a rosy tommorow is, in the long run, exactly what we should not be doing for the health of us all.

Yes, since leaving Utopia have had less than pleasant encounters with some of my fellow Novas, but to be honest, the ratio of violent hatred to intellectual curiousity in these encounters remains nearly constant to my days wearing that hideous blue,white and yellow uniform. Look to my graduating class of T2M partners, our history as a whole was never a pleasant one.

Also, in regards to Teknokat, please retract your fangs, Tek and I have more than made up our minor differences. I can respect an overwhelming curiousity. Also, do you know how much a security go through like that would have normally cost me?

[Apep]

If only the movement where made up of more people like Geryon, then maybe we'd actually accomplish something. But unfortunatley there are all sorts, even fucks like Lash who don't seem to do anything but for selfish reasons. Don't get me wrong, it's okay to enjoy your work. Encouraged even, you do a better job that way. If your hearts not in it, it's easy to get sloppy.

By the way Prodigy, Don't worry about me needing you to stand beside me if I get into trouble. I've said it before, I alone am responsible for my actions, not you, not the Teragen, just me.

[Jager]

Babylon, it helps if you get the facts straight before you start slinging the mud, and if you think I fooled James for more than a few seconds with my plans, you flatter me and under-estimate James. Besides, I meerly showed him other options. If it means lying to someone to save a life, I'll take the 'reliability' hit, sorry.

Every life is precious. Now, more than ever.

[Babylon]

Mr. Meehan, I apologise for the delay but when I came here to reply to you I found myself distracted by someone who is apparently playing some sort of practical joke on me. I'll not trouble you with this further and take it to the source.

You should know that your name is not so banefully regarded as you appear to think. Much material is not available, and I think you understand what I mean by that, but your name is still associated with a great many things here in Addis Abba. And though your team had its problems, some of what they dealt with nearly impossible situations, your names still resides on the wall next to a great many others that have done their best to just help.

It is a very fine line that we walk as you well remember. There are still those bureacrats that don't understand why its wrong for us to even consider doing what any country in the world wouldn't hesitate to do but that's the price to be paid to do the job we do.

While I think your recent discussions on having undue impact on baseline societies is worthy of note, referring again to that same fine line, do you really value the world so little? Have you never thought to look at those lives affected in a positive way by your presence and that of your team. I am not unmindful of the tragedies and hard choices you encountered in those days, nor would I paint you a rosy optimistic picture when your own memory serves you better. Still...

Is it not possible you are concentrating on those things which you felt to be less than successful? And that this is providing you a less than accurate portrayal of your contributions?

V:

I have missed you! We have to get together in the near future. I mean soon. I'll fill you in on what it's like to be doing brat pack duty with the teenies. You have no idea how lucky you are to have avoided that!

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

... and if you think I fooled James for more than a few seconds...

Please do not take this the wrong way but what the hell are you talking about?

Maybe I'm being dense but I reread this thread several times, expanded my search through the material available, and still come back to that same question.

Or should I ask Mr. Meehan? I caution you I'm going to be a little put out if he characterizes you as some sort of nova fetish cyber-troll. No threats, just making certain we understand each other.

Babylon

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
However, 'V' you brought up my current stance and a past stance I took in regards to Costas and Lasher. I would like to clarify something. Geryon, Leviathan, and from what I know, Apep, are Terats who use violence as a tool. Their violent actions are designed to bring about a desired end. From what I understand the only emotional release thata they receive from their actions is the inevitable adreneline rush and perhaps the satisfaction of putting away a perceived enemy of the One Race.

Costas was and Lash is, as I understand, addicted to their violent actions. They receive their joy in the letting of blood, the causing of pain. They adopted the Terat banner more as an attempt to excuse their actions. Geryon murders because of his beliefs, Lash adopted beliefs to excuse his murders. There is a difference.

No. No, James, I am afraid you are woefully mistaken, and I will not stand by you on this.

In the deepest recesses of all of us is something very primal. It is dark, and moist, and dripping with blood. It is the thrill of meat ripping between your teeth, the ecstacy of wind ripping through your hair as you chase down fleeing prey, and the symphony of elegance that accompanies precise moves and steps leading to the killing stroke of an elaborate dance. It is the primordial scream of sexual union combined with the slicing of a razor into flesh, a sound which echoes throughout one's ears from the moment it is heard until the day one dies.

Most of us cannot conceive of embracing that part of us which we have been conditioned for centuries to avoid giving into. We are told that "higher" beings resist such urges. We are told that only animals give in to their instincts. The sight of those who do allow these forces to touch their consciousness has given birth to the words "monster," "terror," "horror," and "aberration."

It is indeed frightening to let go of all your social programming and give in to that part of you which is buried. It is easy to become lost within it, to let it consume you, and let it take complete control of you. Those of us that can go to that dark place, and emerge back from it, gain a wisdom and insight the rest of us prevent ourselves from ever accumulating. A liberation of sorts, and an enlightening as well.

Do not get me wrong. This is a very seductive path our brothers and sisters in the movement walk when they call themselves "monster." They run the risk of becoming a mindless beast, as those who decide to become gods also risk becoming nothing more than a worship sponge. It is not a path that I myself care to walk down any further than I already have, but I have felt this calling and understand what it can reveal to you.

Further more, I've been fortunate enough to watch my daughter undergo it. She is a creature of incredible beauty, and that beauty is wrapped in sinew and venom and baptized in the blood of countless kills. I can recognize this, and appreciate it, even if I have chosen to walk a diverging path. I hope I am putting down in words well-enough to convey her feelings on the matter, and the experience that I myself also have with it.

The only difference between Geryon and Lash is that Geryon's targets have a societal repercussion towards a greater goal. If you think that Geryon only murders targets that advance his agenda, and that he derives no pleasure from it, I think you've sorely underestimated what he has evolved into. Lash, conversely, doesn't channel his darkness into something viewed as constructive towards the movement. His targets only fulfill a personal need.

But the only thing that seperates the two of them is where they decide to focus this darkness. That's all. Saying that he only murders to further politics belittles the fact that is a monster, and walks the path of the monster. He is not some cold, and distant assassin. Were that the case, his calling would have led him to the portent or marvel facets of Teras. He chose his path and walks it without compromise or apology.

When the blood is flowing and flesh left ripped apart, the thrill they both feel is the same.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
No. No, James, I am afraid you are woefully mistaken, and I will not stand by you on this.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

Interesting argument coming from the Nova who declared that retaining social constructs from baseline existence would hold us back.

You may feel I am mistaken and that is fine. You and I have rarely seen eye to eye. I still see a great difference between Geryon and Lash. No, I do not attempt to fool myself into believing that Geryon acts purely out of some greater purpose and that he receives no visceral pleasure from his activities.

I see Geryon as a monster. A Nova who has chosen to follow a path, the same dark and frightening path that you describe. Quite evocative prose by the way.

I see Lash as an animal. A Nova who lacks the sense of self to have made any choice. He has given in to his base instincts and twisted mentality. He is under their control, they are not his to command.

I have not chosen the path of the Monster, it is not to my liking. There are those who walk it however that I still accept as brothers and sisters. I respect Geryon, and honestly, on the one occasion that I was actually in his presence, I physically feared him, but I still embrace him. Lash, Costas, they are not family, they are not Teras regardless what you would like to believe. They failed to evolve, they failed in their potential.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Babylon:


Please do not take this the wrong way but what the hell are you talking about?

Maybe I'm being dense but I reread this thread several times, expanded my search through the material available, and still come back to that same question.

Or should I ask Mr. Meehan? I caution you I'm going to be a little put out if he characterizes you as some sort of nova fetish cyber-troll. No threats, just making certain we understand each other.

Babylon

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

Jager is an aquantance whom I have had words with in the past. He likes to keep his nose below radar so I'm not supprised you don't know him.

'Nova-fetish cyber troll', heheheeh. Thank you for the laugh. I appreciate it. And my friend Michael more than appreciated it. He hopes you enjoy the flowers he sent you.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Interesting argument coming from the Nova who declared that retaining social constructs from baseline existence would hold us back...I respect Geryon, and honestly, on the one occasion that I was actually in his presence, I physically feared him, but I still embrace him. Lash, Costas, they are not family, they are not Teras regardless what you would like to believe. They failed to evolve, they failed in their potential.

And Leviathan, and the rest of the Harvesters who take great delight and causing fear and terror? Have they evolved, or failed in their potential? How do you define when someone has "failed" at Teras? Where do you draw the line and state, THIS one has evolved, THIS one is flotsam?

[Hugin]

I take into account each one's behaviors and attitudes and make a decision based on that. I prefer not to make blanket judgments. For example, I have met the occasional portent who was simply an intellectual snob who believed their quantum powered noggin was the end all be all of Novadom. Don't you simply hate elitism?

[Jager]

James, is it not arrogance to dismiss that which you don't yet understand?

I am not sure that you like me, but your are someone worth going to the wall for. I have done it before and I will do it again, if need be. Like Ashnod, it is your realization of your potential that makes you so important to the rest of us. After all, is it not the surety that there is always more out there to learn and know that drives the Portent?

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
James, is it not arrogance to dismiss that which you don't yet understand?

Absolutely, however, I do understand Lash and Costas. I dislike and loathe them, but I do understand them. I understand that they are merely trying to elevate their sad little existences by claiming to be a part of something larger.

Geryon, Leviathan, the others whom I do not condem, they travel a path, a dark and elemental path most powerful and enticing. But they walk it, it does not lead them. Costas made no choice, except at the very begining, and that was to surrender to his primal self, not to master it.

[Walker]

I must admit I am curious regarding the path of the monster which has been spoken about. Is it in anyones experience that the eating of human flesh and blood drinking accompanies this path?

While I can understand the primal descent into darkness that achieves enlightenment, I fail to see how violent actions could be labelled as moral justified, indeed triumphed as superior. If these monsters require humans as sustenance it is a matter of simple nutrition. If they wish to be hunters then they are better off stalking themselves and seeking elightenment in other less identity-destructive ways.

[Hugin]

Walker, I have heard rumors of some 'monsters' who do partake of human flesh. However, I have no hard proof and I do not see any reason to try to obtain that proof.

You can see how a primal path can lead to enlightenment but you cannot see how violence can be labeled morally justified? Ok. Fine. First of all, the morality of which you speak is still fairly baseline in approach. Two how can you on one hand accept a primal path, a path in which violence is almost guaranteed and on the other hand dismiss the violence that does occurr?

[Violette 'V' D'Aronique]

Thank you for sticking to your guns and not backing down to Ashnod, Prodigy. I'm glad to see some of you within the Teragen recognize that you have some pretty twisted individuals in your midst. I really wish you'd see that Geryon is a problem too, but I think I'm hoping for too much there. As it is, I'll take the beacon of hope that you've presented me.

I wanted to address something you've said earlier, about me not holding Utopia accountable for the problems of some of it's less savory individuals, since it is kind of on topic with what you and Ashnod were talking about.

Thing is, I do hold Utopia accountable. We all do. That's why when we find that we have a bad apple in our ranks, we get rid of them. When someone isn't living up to the ideal they are expected to live up to when they signed their contracts, they are released.

I've never denied that we've had some less savory members in the past, and that they've done some questionable things. But when we find out about them, we investigate them, discipline them, and if necessary, they are asked to leave.

So when you ask me why I don't hold Utopia accountable for the things these people have done, my answer is simply that I honestly, with everything that I believe, don't think that Director Laragione ever ordered these events to happen. I don't think that the highest ranks of our leadership willfully committed any crimes. I know that some of the employees here have, but as I said, when it is brought to light, we deal with it. Yes, I know sometimes others must bring the problem to light for us to see it, but we do something about it when it is brought to our attention.

As far as I can see with the Teragen, and I think you and Ashnod just proved it, there is no such policing. If a member is acting against what the group considers "ideal behavior," it's simply tolerated because there is no order amongst you. I'm willing to bet that you aren't the only person in the Teragen who disapproves of Lash, but I don't think anyone there is going to do something about the fact that his, as Ashnod called it "darkness," gives your people a horrible image. Especially among other Novas who try very hard to show the world that it doesn't matter if you have a node or not, that we can get along.

I hold Utopia accountable for dealing with our mistakes. I also hold it accountable for dealing with its people who violate its precepts.

But I also expect the Teragen to do the same, and until it does I can't see it as anything more than a motley crew that consists of a few brilliant minds who let their bandwagon riders run wild and tarnish their teachings.

[Hugin]

You've touched upon one of the very important differences between the Utopian and Terat experience. It is quite important that we explore this just a tad more.

Utopia is a baseline organization that happens to employ a number of Novas. It is responsible to the baseline organizations with which it operates, such as Triton, the UN, and a variety of world governments. Utopia operates within the accepted baseline framework of right and wrong.

The Teragen is a Nova organization that is made up of Novas only. Those baseline fans and poseurs are merely hangers on. The Teragen is about new concepts of right and wrong. New concepts of rights and responsibilities. We are evolving, we are a fluid and everchanging society. When Ashnod lectures me, she is not doing so out of a position of authority or power. She does so out of a desire to instruct and correct. I listen to her, again, not because she is my commander or watch supervisor, but because I respect her mind, her philosophy. Now, we have come across a position in which we disagree. Is Ashnod going to report me, to have me censured? No, she sits back and lets me speak. I define my own position and all Terats who read my words will define their own reaction to those words. My words, my actions and how they are interpreted are what defines my place within the Teragen.

To suggest that our 'leaders' root out the 'bad apples' is to misunderstand the very nature of our existence. Do you know when I became a Terat? When other Terats told me I had become one. One day, some time after having left Utopia and having written what I thought was my most daring OpEd piece to that point, I was in the Amp Room and Novas who had held me at a distance and with disdain were now open to me. I had spoken, I had defined my own beleifs and their reactions had defined my place amongst them. It was quite liberating.

I feel no responsiblity to call for Lash to be driven from our ranks. Personally, I will not aid him, nor will I come to his defense. I take responsibility for my actions, he takes responsibility for his. I would not sully what we have achieved already by trying to instill some archaic and inneffectual system of rules and regulations.

By the way, I do thank you for keeping an open dialogue. I appreciate the conversation.

[Violette 'V' D'Aronique]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
To suggest that our 'leaders' root out the 'bad apples' is to misunderstand the very nature of our existence. Do you know when I became a Terat? When other Terats told me I had become one. One day, some time after having left Utopia and having written what I thought was my most daring OpEd piece to that point, I was in the Amp Room and Novas who had held me at a distance and with disdain were now open to me. I had spoken, I had defined my own beleifs and their reactions had defined my place amongst them. It was quite liberating.

I feel no responsiblity to call for Lash to be driven from our ranks. Personally, I will not aid him, nor will I come to his defense. I take responsibility for my actions, he takes responsibility for his. I would not sully what we have achieved already by trying to instill some archaic and inneffectual system of rules and regulations.

But...but????

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
However, Ashnod, I cannot agree that the loss of Costas was anything other than beneficial. He was an animal. He deserved to be put down. Lash is an animal too. Their membership in the Teragen notwithstanding we should not and cannot tolerate them any further. Baselines do not accept the degraded and foul of their kind, those that slaughter animals for fun or for some sick outlet. We should no more protect those of us who follow a similarly foul path...Lash is corrupt and if given the opportunity I would end him without regret.

I'm really not trying to start an argument here, Prodigy. Really, it's just that these two statements seem contradictory. In one, you state that the Teragen shouldn't tolerate Lash any further; that his loss would be beneficial, and that you would kill him given the opportunity? Then you say that you feel no responsibility to call from him to be driven out, but isn't that what you have already done?

Help me to understand this, please. I'm not as intelligent as you and I think I'm missing something. What about the nature of our existence am I misunderstanding?

[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: Violette 'V' D'Aronique ]

[Hugin]

Simple, emotion. The quote you are citing where I was advocating expulsion of Lash was made when I was quite upset. Upset at myself, upset at the world in general.

Novas have emotions too you know. And sometimes, despite my stunning intellect I am still a servant of my own. I try to keep them under some sense of restraint, but I am sure that there are a number of posts that you could dredge up on this board where my emotions have gotten the better of me.

[Babylon]

Mr. Meehan,

Check my understanding on this; you scrutinized Lash and in your judgment he fails to meet the criteria for evolving but it is not your place to seperate him from other 'Terats' or to punish him for his actions. Therefore you are critical of him but do not take responsibility in the matter even if, as you seem to be saying, he fails to take responsibilty for himself.

Ooooo-kay.

So you seem to be saying that there are those Terats you repect and would support as well as those Terats you do not respect and would not support. In either case you feel no personal responsibility in the matter therefore you remain aloof. So where did the body-jumping Costa fit into this evolved sensibilities? And yes, I have been reading. A little.

Forgive me for seeming to second guess, but it seems unlikely to have been a strictly emotional matter there. There were outbursts and recriminations, judgments and accusations, yes. But in the end two Terats saddled up to joined forces with two non-terats for the specific purpose of hunting down and killing a third terat.

How exactly does that work?

It would seem in that matter that there was judgment followed by execution and done in a manner that certainly doesn't seem spontaneous. Quite the contrary, premeditation appeared to be the rule of the day.

[Hugin]

You can have premeditation and still be emotional. The fact is I am not proud of my part in the entire Costas affair. My part in that entire debacle was to create a situation in which Costas' powers were counted and his ability to escape was hampered. Unfortunately I failed. At that point the situation escalated out of my control.

I consider what happened with Costas to have been a learning experience. One I hope never to duplicate.

I really don't have much more to say, other than it is to my great sorrow that what happened, happened.

[Jager]

Another way to look at this, Babylon and V, is that while Terats feel free to express their views about fellow terats and approve or disapprove of their actions, they do not feel free to actively dismiss the actions of their fellows. It's kind of like this, "My freedom to explore my evolutionary potential is guarenteed by both of us being terats, even if I think your means of evolution is a crock of shit."

In the Costas affair, Avenger, a terat, decided that his means of evolving himself (avenging the defenseless) was conflicting with Costas' (slaughtering the victims). Its a rare circumstance, but it does happen. In that case, terats felt free to act as they saw fit. That is why Avenger and James didn't suffer any censure from their fellows, nor do they live under the threat of retribution. Myself, being an outsider, could not have acted alone against Costas without repercussions.

The whole Costas affair was a catasrophe and only by learning from our many mistakes can any good come from it.

On the matter of Utopian accountability, something else should be pointed out. While a few "really bad apples" have gotten into the organization, the real threat has always been that different people have different ideas on what is the best direction for Utopia to take. It is often these differences that lead to Utopia tripping over itself. To think that Utopia can't change and evolve is a mistake. That factor is one of the main reasons so many of us both fear and yet, find hope there.

Just as Utopians tend to have a miopic view of the Teragen, many terats see PU as the "evil baseline empire" enslaving novakind. There is alot more to it, and its attendant novas, than that. Then again, its much easier to simply say, "They aren't us, so they must be the enemy", than actually trying to come to some sort of understanding.

[Babylon]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
You can have premeditation and still be emotional.

I do not mean to remind you of a subject you feel to be unpleasant. And yes, it was unpleasant. It doesn't take a baseline, nova, Utopian of Terat perspective to see that it was an ugly situation in every detail. I can imagine that emotions were running high though I meant only to distinguish between whether an act was premeditated or not.

Knowing that I understand that much if no more, please pardon me for pressing on the matter just a little further.

I understand that you didn't willing join in to kill anyone. I would even venture to guess that you wouldn't have been a participant if you'd realized death was a probable outcome. So knowing that I understand that much please forgive me for asking the next logical question; what did you intend to do with Costa once you had him?

I don't expect that you would speak for Avenger or the 'outsiders' involved but I can see that killing was not your intention. I find it difficult to believe you would have considered the lobotomization of his MR Node to be a viable option. So what was the desired outcome?

Once Costa had been trapped what were you going to do with him and his path to evolution?

Quote:

Myself, being an outsider...

Interesting that this is the second time you've stood up to be counted with an opinion on a question I asked Prodigy. And interesting as well that you feel comfortable discoursing on the motivations and decisions of Teragen members. Forgive me for not responding to your thoughts and observations immediately but there are other matters I need to attend to at the moment and I'll return to you later.

I do something to leave you with right now though. When it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, gives it's opinions on other and acts in a generally duck-like manner... it might be squirrel. It usually isn't though.

My what big eyes you have, grandma.

[Jager]

My apologize then, Babylon.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Once Costa had been trapped what were you going to do with him and his path to evolution?

Myself, being an outsider...

I don't feel that you and I have entered into the necessary level of comradery for me to reveal quite everything about my resources.

Rest assured, I had plans. They were blown all straight to hell though.

As for Jager, there really isn't any need to take him to task so. He is gregarious and loves to encourage discussion and debate, there are worse traits.

[Babylon]

No, its good.

I told you I'd get back to you later.

You owed me an apology for the first time you did it. I wasted a lot of effort trying to figure out what the hell you were talking about. At least this time you left a clue. I just found it interesting that twice now you've jump to Prodigy's defense like he were a younger sibling, an elder son, or a lover.

The part I don't get is this; I really don't see why you put so much effort into telling everyone you're not a Terat. You quote the philosophy, speak for other Terats, represent the Teragen organization in its beliefs and espouse its values.

I'll be the first to admit I know only a little about the internal workings of the Teragen and almost nothing about its internal politics. Nonetheless, it seems just a little difficult to believe that no one would have come after you, the outsider for being party to the murder of a Terat no matter how many Terats were involved. Not for as flimsy a rationale as:

Myself, being an outsider, could not have acted alone against Costas without repercussions.

If anything, their involvement would seem to guarantee repercussions to a non-Terat. The one thing that watching a hundred late night interviews with Raol Christabol Orzaiz has hammered into my head is that the Teragen doesn't go after its own for baselines. Period. Different members rationalize it in different ways but it all comes down to that one and only constant.

The makes it much more likely that the reason someone doesn't pay for that stunt is because it would involve breaking the rule. In as charming and affable a manner as I am certain Prodigy and Avenger comport themselves, I am equally certain that there are those that would like nothing more than to make someone associated with them, or someone under their protection, pay dearly for having done that deed.

Personally, and this is ignorant little me speaking having done time in Columbia and dealing with vindictive drug lords, I see a much more likely explanation. I'd also worry more about Elizabeth Rayne.

You have an interesting take on Utopia and its shortcomings, very specific in nature. Are you sure that's the real concern though? That people have different ideas of the direction it should take? Project Utopia has a world of concerns, hyperbole intended, and no one view is going to do justice to that.

It is not a gun to be pointed at someone's head or a shield to protect any one man. We make mistakes, we stumble and we occasionally screw up on priorities. We've all heard the old saw about the road to hell so I won't waste your time with platitudes. I will say that we are an organization dedicated to helping. And that where you find us are places we've been invited into. Its all very easy to spin the conspiracy theories because to everyone of them there is a grain of truth.

Of course the mafia wanted J.F.K. dead. Of course people would have been embarrassed by Marilyn Monroe naming names. Of course Judge Crater had a mistress with a powerful husband. Of course Utopia has too much power to allow anyone that fears for their own agendas to rest comfortably.

We work to keep the world turning on its axis so humanity can live its assorted lives as baseline and novas while making its choices. Be wary of those that claim only they can know the truth.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

[Babylon]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
I don't feel that you and I have entered into the necessary level of comradery for me to reveal quite everything about my resources.

Fair enough. I was less curious about your resources than in how far you were willing to go. And what exactly would constitute a remedy to the situation posed by Costa that a Terat would find acceptable as a manner in which to deal with another Terat.

Quote:

As for Jager, there really isn't any need to take him to task so.

Oh, this isn't taking him to task! This is the very milk of human compassion and the font from which it pours. When I take someone to task you need only follow the wailing to locate them. Your friend, apart from a single instance of trollish behaviour which I am willing to accept as a misunderstanding, has done nothing to me sufficient to warrant treating him in that manner.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Babylon ]

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
In the Costas affair, Avenger, a terat, decided that his means of evolving himself (avenging the defenseless) was conflicting with Costas' (slaughtering the victims). Its a rare circumstance, but it does happen. In that case, terats felt free to act as they saw fit. That is why Avenger and James didn't suffer any censure from their fellows, nor do they live under the threat of retribution. Myself, being an outsider, could not have acted alone against Costas without repercussions.

If you say so. Just because nobody has threatened lives or asked for excommunication doesn't mean that we are accepting of the situation, that we will trust either of the two with Terat lives again, or that have any intention of associating with them on anything more than a surface level. Nor does it mean the threat of those two punishments don't exist, merely that nobody has seen fit to take it into their own hands as of yet.

The repercussions of this were a lot more far-reaching than you realize, Jager. Two Terats joining forces to kill a third Terat was not taken lightly.

But then again, you being an outsider to us, I shouldn't have expected you to know that.

[Stheno]

Killing should never be taken lightly, regardless of whom one is killing.

Killing a nova = killing a person.

Killing a baseline = killing a person.

Killing a person is never a good thing. Sometimes necessary. Sometimes, perhaps, desirable.

Everything else is sophistry.

[Jager]

Damn, you would think you people hadn't yet realized that I do "know it all".

Yes, being involved with the death of Costas has hurt me. Not with those who were my friends beforehand, but with some of the terats who I occassionally associated with. Either out of fear of reprisal, or out of anger for my part in the deed, the few younger terats I did know and talk with keep me at arms length. A few others have actually sought me out for an explanation.

No, I'm not a 'member of the club' and I haven't been for some time. That matters to some people. Others care more about the individual and some of them choose to keep talking with me.

Could they be selling me a bill of goods? Possibly. I am imperfect, after all. I accept that and deal with it the best I can. Yes, I trust people and accept those inherent risks. You both should try it some time. Trusting another, that is.

Ashnod, wake up and realize that terats kill other terats. It happens. So far, it has rarely been through direct confrontation, but it does happen. How do I know this? Been there, done that. The rest is between them and I and goes with me to my grave.

Babylon, what's with you and conspiracies? Have you been talking to Jack Chance? Okay, whatever. If attempting to belittle me helps you get up in the morning, more power to ya. I actually find it somewhat useful. People are far less concerned about a crackpot. Along with that apology, I guess I owe the both of you a word of thanks. Thanks.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
If you say so. Just because nobody has threatened lives or asked for excommunication doesn't mean that we are accepting of the situation, that we will trust either of the two with Terat lives again, or that have any intention of associating with them on anything more than a surface level. Nor does it mean the threat of those two punishments don't exist, merely that nobody has seen fit to take it into their own hands as of yet.

The repercussions of this were a lot more far-reaching than you realize, Jager. Two Terats joining forces to kill a third Terat was not taken lightly.

But then again, you being an outsider to us, I shouldn't have expected you to know that.

Is this why you've been so distant as of late Ashnod. Are you really so disturbed that I took some action against Costas?

[Babylon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Babylon, what's with you and conspiracies?

A brighter tomorrow requires the oddest assortment of enthusiasm, pragmatism and the ability to address some very outlandish concerns. While some prefer to ignore the ridiculous rumors rather than dignify them, I believe problems are best dealt with in another manner.

As for the rest; how very curious. I'd never heard it described as being 'a member of the club' before.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Ashnod, wake up and realize that terats kill other terats. It happens. So far, it has rarely been through direct confrontation, but it does happen. How do I know this? Been there, done that. The rest is between them and I and goes with me to my grave.

Oh yes, I forgot that in your multi-temporal-dimensional-displaced existence, you've been everywhere, done everything, know what's best, and are far-more informed about everything the rest of us are involved in though you are not currently involved with it yourself. Lately, it seems, you know just enough to make you appear that you are in the know, but then have to backpedal and admit maybe you weren't as informed as you thought you were.

Wake up, Jager, and realize that even if interfaction killing has happened, it's not looked upon favorable, and it's always with repercussion, even if it's not readily visible. Your own words, "That is why Avenger and James didn't suffer any censure from their fellows, nor do they live under the threat of retribution," give the very misleading image that the entire movement sat back and watched this happen, said "Oh, it's just two divergant philosophies at odds, we're obligated to let this happen." Furthermore, you make it sound like we turn a blind eye to it, move on, and forget about it.

That's not the case at all.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Is this why you've been so distant as of late Ashnod. Are you really so disturbed that I took some action against Costas?

You're an elitest. You're ready to stand up and judge us one by one, and state "you have evolved. I proclaim you Terat, you are my brother and will give up my life for you," or "you have failed. I proclaim you an animal. Your place in our bretheren should be eliminated."

So yes, Prodigy, I'm pretty disturbed by what you've done. I'm more disturbed by the pitiful attempt to justify this than Costas's death itself.

I don't know when you decided you had the position and the authority to decree that Costas had failed to evolve. I don't know how you can put a timelimit on such a thing, or that you, who don't follow the monster path, can decide what someone's progress along it is.

Your Orwellian "We are all Terat, but some of us are more Terat than others" philosophy is frankly supremicist. And that frightens me, Prodigy. It disturbs me that you don't see this, and that if someone else in the movement had decided that you had failed in your evolution and took similar action against you, you wouldn't recognize the same motivations in play.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Walker]

Mr Meehan,

I was merely speaking from my own experience of a descent and rebirth process. Of course a primal path implies danger and violence, 'without any risk there can be no gain'. I simply see no need to kill or even be unpleasant to people, an animal, a plant or even a rock, to achieve the disintegration and re-intergration into a new form that a truely primal path offers.

As for my morality still being baseline, all morality is a luxury derived from having a full stomach.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
You're an elitest. You're ready to stand up and judge us one by one, and state "you have evolved. I proclaim you Terat, you are my brother and will give up my life for you," or "you have failed. I proclaim you an animal. Your place in our bretheren should be eliminated."

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

I'm an elitist? Is that really so suprising? The Teras philosophy is rife with elitism. I'm simply more open about it.

You seperate yourself from baselines. You consider yourself above them and you feel that whatever is done to them, even by our 'brothers' is none of your concern. When Costas was tearing a swath of pain through baseline society your response was a complete lack of concern. We are so far above baselines that we can slaughter them for our sport? And I'm an elitist?

I have been attacked by Terats who felt that for one reason or another I did not fit in with the philosphy. My experiences with the Cult of Mal have never been anything but violent.

I refuse to accept that the mere accident of eruption makes someone my brother. You are more accepting and open, so long as the Nova in question accepts your worldview. You have expressed much more contempt and derision for our fellows than I could ever muster, yet again, I am the elitist.

What timeline is there? He started hunting another Nova, for joy. I didn't see any reason to give him more time. I'm not a monster so I cannot judge when someone is on the path? You are not a monster, how can you judge when they *are*?


I respect you, always have. Fine, judge me. I don't really care. I will do what I have done and I make no bones about it. Costas was not a monster, he was an animal, I acted to protect others from that animal. Do you forget, our actions were taken in the defense of another Nova?

[Babylon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
If attempting to belittle me helps you get up in the morning, more power to ya.

Okay, I thought I could let this go but I can't.

Where do you get belittling from?

Seriously.

You're very quick to point out that you aren't a Terat but then you turn around and speak for other Terats regarding Terat questions. You talk about not being part of the club but wax eloquent on the philosophies just before speaking for Terats as a group. In response to all of the above I tell you that you sound, act and portray yourself as a Terat.

From this you get belittling?

I don't know what went down with Costa. And even more to the point, while I regard murder as wrong and what he did as even worse, it certainly sounds like he got his just desserts in spades. I only wanted to know how Prodigy perceived it all from his particular and somewhat peculiar point of view.

Since you jumped into the conversation; yeah you sound like someone that certainly regards themselves as an expert on Teras in general and the Teragen in particular. Am I suppose to be challenging you on this point? Sorry, don't have the background to do it effectively even if you were more than a hidden face in a virtual place.

It seems to me that if the Teragen actually believes in the values it conveys then murdering a Terat is not a "Oh, it happens" kind of event in the world. At least not in the minds of other Terats. And if that's true then, and I base this only on my experience with some pretty vindictive people, its unlikely that matter has been forgotten as water under the bridge.

Given all of that, I can see Prodigy and Avenger being given enough slack that they aren't hunted down in the same manner Costa was. I can't see you or Elizabeth Rayne being given a free pass and told not to do it again just because there were other Terats involved. As I tried to point out, their involvement and the inability to punish them directly would seem to make it more likely that punishment would be meted out to the two that were not so protected by their status as Terats. Yes, that would be you and Elizabeth Rayne. Which brings me back to your supposedly not being a Terat.

Since they haven't taken action against a non-Terat for murdering a Terat I have to ask; do the other Terats know that you are not one of them?

And yes, you owe me another apology. Whether its offered for being paranoid or just jumping to conclusions is up to you but you owe me.