Aberrant RPG - Ultimate damage

[metaphysician]

Its not a rather situation...both contribute.

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I did some wiki research and it appears we are both correct. Your description I found under High Explosive Incendiary. Howerver I was talking about Armor Piercing Incendiary where..

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I would say that calls for more than merely "making paint bubble"...

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So in Abby terms its like the immolate melting through soak with a solid mega strength sabot punch right behind...

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...damage stacks mein freund!

You missed one thing: in the function of HEIAP rounds, its the *explosive* that blasts a hole for the penetrator. Not the incendiary. And explosives blast holes via kinetic force, not heat.

Considering the melting point of armor grade steel alone, this should not be surprising.

[SkyLion]

We shall melt through their tanks with LIQUID HOT MAG-MA!

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[knave]

I think what a lot of people don't get in abbie is something the prof goes to great pains to explain. It doesn't matter how logic dictates a power works or what a power is called - a power does what it says it does - how it does it is mearly a 'special effect' that, in most cases, has no further bearing in the application.

So, if you're talking HEAT rounds those are QBolt with AP (special effect 'fire')- because that's what they're designed to.

[SkyLion]

I understand that part knave. The question was about whether or not immolate stacks with strength. In the course of the flaming debate in this topic there was a good deal of examples given for why the rule should be interpreted as stacking..I was giving my own example of something that I *thought* stacked.

[knave]

I understand that part knave. The question was about whether or not immolate stacks with strength. In the course of the flaming debate in this topic there was a good deal of examples given for why the rule should be interpreted as stacking..I was giving my own example of something that I *thought* stacked.

Fair doos.

I think the thing to ask is - 'does this invalidate any character concepts' - and offensive stacking generally does.

Tragically Aberrant powers are a little too granular. It would be nice to be able to add multiple extras at lower power levels.

[SkyLion]

Fair doos.

I think the thing to ask is - 'does this invalidate any character concepts' - and offensive stacking generally does.

Tragically Aberrant powers are a little too granular. It would be nice to be able to add multiple extras at lower power levels.

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Im sorry..I dont speak the Queens good English! ::laugh could you rephrase that for me? are you saying that certain concepts dont work within the rules? or the other way around? What did you mean by 'granular'?

[Alex Green]

I understand that part knave. The question was about whether or not immolate stacks with strength. In the course of the flaming debate in this topic there was a good deal of examples given for why the rule should be interpreted as stacking..I was giving my own example of something that I *thought* stacked.

I wasn't a fan of *any* of those examples, and there's lot of examples where it makes no sense and lots of mechanical reasons why it makes no sense.

It's not hard to come up with easy examples of two attacks in real life. A whip that's also electric for example. It's also not hard to find something that immune to both the effects (Faraday cage). I can't think of any example where something that's immune to both underlying effects suddenly takes full damage from one or the other if they are combined.

[metaphysician]

If you really want your Immolate to "add", what you should do is buy Claws, Linked to the Immolate appropriately. Sure, its less damage, but Aberrant damage isn't really a linear scale anyway.

[knave]

Im sorry..I dont speak the Queens good English! ::laugh could you rephrase that for me? are you saying that certain concepts dont work within the rules? or the other way around? What did you mean by 'granular'?

::tongue me neither - that's probably the problem ::unsure

I meant that if offensive powers stacked it becomes much much harder to build a Dark Matter Destroyer / Alloy / Hulk type "brick".

Best example I can think of is someone shooting an incendiary round at Hellboy who is completely immune to fire (immunity fire) and pretty tough (armour). If the damage has 2 sources it makes sense. So 5d6Kinetic + 3d6 fire or whatever. If it's 8d6 firey/kinetic - how much damage gets taken?

What I meant by granularity is that it's not really feasible under the basic rules to make a power that is armour piercing, has long range and MIRVs but does only minor bashing damage. Adding an extra makes the power massively more expensive - so much so that you can easily be scuppered just because you really want an elaborate special effect.

[Matthew]

The RQC extra looks at the original power level, just like Mastery. Other wise it would be damn useless.

Immolate states that "And also causes damage from immolate" meaning that the damage/soak is calculated desperately.

"types" of damage are just that "types". If Hellboy is immune to fire and is hit with a fire q.bolt, then he takes no damage. If he is hit with a fire bullet q.bolt.(fire/kinetic) He would need to calculate soak because he is not immune to kinetic damage. He can just soak it really well. They are not two separate attacks. If someone was not immune to either, he would not take twice the damage.

[knave]

The RQC extra looks at the original power level, just like Mastery. Other wise it would be damn useless.

Immolate states that "And also causes damage from immolate" meaning that the damage/soak is calculated desperately.

"types" of damage are just that "types". If Hellboy is immune to fire and is hit with a fire q.bolt, then he takes no damage. If he is hit with a fire bullet q.bolt.(fire/kinetic) He would need to calculate soak because he is not immune to kinetic damage. He can just soak it really well. They are not two separate attacks. If someone was not immune to either, he would not take twice the damage.

/agree

[SkyLion]

What I meant by granularity is that it's not really feasible under the basic rules to make a power that is armour piercing, has long range and MIRVs but does only minor bashing damage. Adding an extra makes the power massively more expensive - so much so that you can easily be scuppered just because you really want an elaborate special effect.

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Thats what the Hero System is for!

[metaphysician]

Why would you *want* a power with a lot of cool effects that does minimal damage? I mean, if your long range, armor piercing, MIRV Qbolt only does 6 bashing, then your only going to do about 3 bashing levels even against someone whose armor is totally negated.

[Alex Green]

I meant that if offensive powers stacked it becomes much much harder to build a Dark Matter Destroyer / Alloy / Hulk type "brick".

Yes, combat gets much nastier and abby combat is already brutal.

What I meant by granularity is that it's not really feasible under the basic rules to make a power that is armour piercing, has long range and MIRVs but does only minor bashing damage. Adding an extra makes the power massively more expensive - so much so that you can easily be scuppered just because you really want an elaborate special effect.

I've yet to see someone who wanted a "special effect", usually someone wants a "hose everyone" type thing or a "but it has to work on novas" type effect.

But if you wish... Claws + (Ranged or KE) + MIRV. You're only doint one die of lethal damage per dot, but baselines can't soak lethal damage.

[SkyLion]

wouldnt you still roll that one die? Thats less than a 50% chance of doing 1 level of damage. To make that really effective you would need a lot of quantum, mega dex for splitting firearms dice pools, multitasking, quickness and some extra arms.

[SkyLion]

15L is short for 10[5]L and is the max for a Q5 or less PC.

It seems kind of pointless to use Immolate for a bashing attack.

So I wa thinking of this character concept which is basically a kind of repulsive force field effect. No not THAT kind of repulsive. ::tongue Basically a force-shield that knocks back opponents when they hit you...or you hit them.

Now this is a skin tight field that is defined IC terms as a force adder. It made me think this damage would stack with a punch since its force adding to force.

I went back through and reread this whole thread and the majority of the arguments were for *lethal* immolates, as well as working with a damage type that is totally seperate from the punch.

So it makes sense to me that a lethal immolate described as fire wouldnt stack, since you just got puched and got singed by the fire. But if its a mega strong punch coming at your grill with all that force and the bashing immolate is more force you would think it would stack.

A proposed house rule (since the books wording is open enough in interpretation to create 9 (Correction! after posting this I see I have started a 10th page! ::laugh ) pages of heated debate) would be that damage can only stack if it *is* bashing with the usual caveat that if it somehow breaks the game or is too unbalancing then it would naturally not be allowed.

[Alex Green]

So it makes sense to me that a lethal immolate described as fire wouldnt stack, since you just got puched and got singed by the fire.

Right there that admits that Immolate is a separate attack.

...that damage can only stack if it *is* bashing with the usual caveat that if it somehow breaks the game or is too unbalancing then it would naturally not be allowed.

At Q5 Immolate would add another 18 dice of damage. That's more or less equiv to Mega-Strength 4.

So Bodymorph (Hard Solid) : Immolate + Density Increase (APG Option) would do 27[25]+acc... which is pretty close to Mega-Strength 9 for the attack.

And it's a bargain, only costing 6 nova points and Q5. For two more nova points you could split out the DI and get Extreme Density raising the attack to 27[30]+acc

I'd say I could build a character around that.

[SkyLion]

Somehow I knew you would be the only one who cared Alex... ::tongue

Anyways lets take this a piece at a time shall we?

Right there that admits that Immolate is a separate attack.

No. It is admiting that whether or not damage would "stack" (a roleplaying specific idea if I've ever heard one anyways...) is entirely dependant on the mechanics of how such damage is being achieved. The vast majority of the arguments here have been based around different "types" of damage (which *is* actually real world relevant). Being punched is going to slam your body with direct force. If your immolate is fire based then in addition to the force hitting you there is going to be the fire which is going to burn and melt your skin off...not neccessarily imparting more force to the actual blow. In THIS case the force from the immolate is going to go BOOM! and carry right on through with the kinetic force of the blow.

A kinetic immolate would directly add to the force of a punch...

If you can't see the logic and applicability behind that then I don't think I can even discuss this with you. ::rolleyes

At Q5 Immolate would add another 18 dice of damage. That's more or less equiv to Mega-Strength 4.

So Bodymorph (Hard Solid) : Immolate + Density Increase (APG Option) would do 27[25]+acc... which is pretty close to Mega-Strength 9 for the attack.

First of all, as I am stating, theme plays a huge roll here. I don't see how becoming a hard solid would warrant immolate in the first place unless it had a weakness that it only functioned when attacked (since you would hurt yourself hitting such a dense object), but in that case the stacking question is moot.

Furthermore it is NOT the same as Mega Str 9. Mega Str 9 would be a strike damage o5 7 [45] or an average of (rounding up) 48 total damage. IN your example the average damage would be 37 damage (I added 2 more dice because you forgot to add the +2 strike modifier. These examples are not counting accuracy bonuses to damage.).

And it's a bargain, only costing 6 nova points and Q5. For two more nova points you could split out the DI and get Extreme Density raising the attack to 27[30]+acc

No offense my friend but your math is on crack. ::tongue

In both your example above and the one here you are assuming a bashing immolate rating of 5 dots.

The NP cost for what you have described would be 15 (immolate) + 3 (DI bought seperate from the bodymorph, without the extra) + a minimum of 3 for Q5 (bought tainted and with at least 6 points of flaws to spend 21 bonus points on quantum).

For a total of 21 points for this build.

Now granted its still a great idea to get that nice damage you listed but it is neither addressing my question nor the logic behind it.

[Alex Green]

No. It is admiting that whether or not damage would "stack" (a roleplaying specific idea if I've ever heard one anyways...) is entirely dependant on the mechanics of how such damage is being achieved. The vast majority of the arguments here have been based around different "types" of damage (which *is* actually real world relevant). Being punched is going to slam your body with direct force. If your immolate is fire based then in addition to the force hitting you there is going to be the fire which is going to burn and melt your skin off...not neccessarily imparting more force to the actual blow.

Good so far.

In THIS case the force from the immolate is going to go BOOM! and carry right on through with the kinetic force of the blow. A kinetic immolate would directly add to the force of a punch...

This does not follow. If I shoot you twice in the same spot at the same time (possible with extra limbs), the damage doesn't stack, you just take it twice. If bullets don't stack with bullets then it's hard to see why dis-alike effects should.

Further, two bullet attacks impacts twice as much damage. Damage in abby doesn't scale that way. A nuke is roughly 50[50] or 100 dice, if we just add that's equal to 20 bullets.

Further still, players should not gain in-game advantages from theme or power definition. Given the same Q and the same dots, the powers should do the same thing and not depend on the "coolness" of the character's theme. Theme should prevent you from doing things, but it shouldn't (for example) double the damage of your attack.

I don't see how becoming a hard solid would warrant immolate in the first place

Neutronium or Uranium for that matter.

Radiation can be a bashing attack, so would the "Bashing" damage of Immolate(Radiation) stack with Mega-Strength?

RE: Math

I was assuming Immolate was (Q+D)x3 Bashing and not Q+Dx3 Bashing.

All this means is that it's less broken right out of the box with 8 dice.

5 Dots of Immolate would be 20 dice of attack.

A more reasonable 3 dots would be 14 dice of attack.

Note that where the higher level Mega-Strength builds are concerned 8 to 14 dice of stackable damage is a *lot*. 14 is roughly equal to adding 3 levels of mega-strength.

And of course none of this takes away from the normal utility of Immolate. It still does everything it's supposed to.

[metaphysician]

Let me just say this entire argument is vaguely silly to me. Immolate doesn't stack, because thats not what Immolate does. Its like a Damage Shield from Hero: a damaging effect that triggers whenever someone touches you.

Argument-from-mechanic and argument-from-sfx are both valid, but they really don't overlap. If a logical analysis of the power says that "kinetic repulsion field should increase punch damage", then all this means is that you need Claws in addition to Immolate.

[SkyLion]

[metaphysician]

Nope, still not buying it. Mechanically, what Immolate does is "inflict damage on contact." You can describe this in many ways, but if the description trends away from "inflict damage on contact", then you don't have Immolate anymore, or not only Immolate.

If the SFX would imply the power does something beyond its mechanical description, the SFX is *wrong*, or at least misused. You can't make your Quantum Bolt an "invisible force beam" and expect its thus undodgeable. . . and you can't say your Immolate is a "repulsion field" and expect it will suddenly be cumulative with your Strength.

Repeat after me: Special Effect never grants free bonuses or penalties. If you want a bonus, you have to pay for it.

[SkyLion]

As an addensum, since this is the ultimate damage thread, I really have no problem on this kind of stacking for another reason. Nova points. If someone *really* wants to sink all their points into creating an uber attack thats fine...but they are unlikely to be able to take as many hits the same way on 30 or even 50 NPs. In the end, their enemies will triumph if thats all they have going for them. Someone will come along with agg or a mind blast or worse, dominate.

Of course this breaks down in a game with enough power/points to buy big attack, big soak and all the bells and whistles of psi shield etc and try and make an invulnerable character. However even then I would argue that such characters exist side by side with "weaker" characters on many comic teams...

Hmmm.. Heres the thing and I would hope a real topic of discussion...maturity.

One could for example, slap a bunch of powers on a page but have it be sloppy and without a solid theme. An ST would be withing their rights to give a big fat NO. But what if there is this great story idea, and it all fits seamless and works within the tone of the series and setting? In that case, if the player is a really good roleplayer and the character is enriching to the game, then why not allow it?

Ideally we could all take a 20 point Hawkeye, or a 90 point Thor and play them with equal depth and panache. I would still love to see such an avengers type game, where a player with perhaps less stat points comes trhough and steals the show with such a solid and engaging character.

Food for Thought.

[SkyLion]

Nope, still not buying it. Mechanically, what Immolate does is "inflict damage on contact." You can describe this in many ways, but if the description trends away from "inflict damage on contact", then you don't have Immolate anymore, or not only Immolate.

If the SFX would imply the power does something beyond its mechanical description, the SFX is *wrong*, or at least misused. You can't make your Quantum Bolt an "invisible force beam" and expect its thus undodgeable. . . and you can't say your Immolate is a "repulsion field" and expect it will suddenly be cumulative with your Strength.

Repeat after me: Special Effect never grants free bonuses or penalties. If you want a bonus, you have to pay for it.

Well to be as polite as possible (though your tone certanly made me consider otherwise) I must say that I respectfully disagree with you. it is EXACTLY that kind of litteral rules mindedness that I rail against. Maaaaybe IF, IF! the rules were so iron clad and well thought out and well written I would bow to that. BUt Abby is so chock full of holes, flaws, poorly worded crap and downright this is stupid that I think in plenty of occasions you have to say Fuck the rules: we are going to house rule something better.

Even better I am going to throw the book at you MP. Page 97 APG states that an electically based q-bolt would be more effective against an opponent standing in water and maybe less effective against a well grounded opponent.

Core rules page 178: sidebar on creating and altering powers.

Gold and Silver laws of roleplaying: if its not fun or doesnt suit you, change it or throw it out.

I can't stand the kind of litteral mindedness you displayed in that last post MP. You are not the kind of ST I would enjoy playing with. Im the kind of guy for example, if I was ST and someone had Bodymorph: Fire, I would give them absolutely free Invulnerability: Fire.

But hey, thats just me. We like different strokes...

[Alex Green]

Even in Alexs 2 bullets idea its twice the force.

That's the problem. It's twice the force. Ergo it's *NOT* twice the damage, at best it's an extra die.

20 bullets does the same damage as a nuke. A nuke is a lot more than 20x a bullet.

Ideally we could all take a 20 point Hawkeye, or a 90 point Thor and play them with equal depth and panache...

You aren't trying to build Hawkeye here.

[BcAugust]

Well to be as polite as possible (though your tone certanly made me consider otherwise) I must say that I respectfully disagree with you. it is EXACTLY that kind of litteral rules mindedness that I rail against. Maaaaybe IF, IF! the rules were so iron clad and well thought out and well written I would bow to that. BUt Abby is so chock full of holes, flaws, poorly worded crap and downright this is stupid that I think in plenty of occasions you have to say Fuck the rules: we are going to house rule something better.

Even better I am going to throw the book at you MP. Page 97 APG states that an electically based q-bolt would be more effective against an opponent standing in water and maybe less effective against a well grounded opponent.

Core rules page 178: sidebar on creating and altering powers.

Gold and Silver laws of roleplaying: if its not fun or doesnt suit you, change it or throw it out.

I can't stand the kind of litteral mindedness you displayed in that last post MP. You are not the kind of ST I would enjoy playing with. Im the kind of guy for example, if I was ST and someone had Bodymorph: Fire, I would give them absolutely free Invulnerability: Fire.

But hey, thats just me. We like different strokes...

Well, I've played under meta and he's a fine ST, but I'm hoping this can stay civil.

Yes, the Aberrant rules have some very annoying holes, and like any WW product require a lot of discretion in Storyteller judgment, which everyone puts a different line. (*reminded of the board's views on Shapeshifting*) But even there, every game system has that.

Oh, and I wouldn't exactly call environmental penalties and bonuses(Which is what that statement is about, how differing environments can give you penalties or bonuses, if the Storyteller chooses.) equivalent to sfx penalties and bonuses. One is situational(And even, slightly, encourages roleplaying the advantages and disadvantages to a tight theme), and one is all the time, for free. Maybe in your experience, this doesn't lead to any problems. In my decade or so of STing, mostly WW, there's been a constant rush by players to try and get stuff for free, be it extra damage or successes, by arguing special effects say they should have that. I'd imagine if my experience is common, that explains some of the hesitation to say that just because you have a different special effect, you get extra damage.

Oh, and to note, Bodymorph already gives you a defense versus what you're turned into, energy wise. And lets you buy invulnerability as one of your dots, if appropriate.

As for the differing power levels comment...Hawkeye, if he's to have any chance under Aberrant rules, needs tons of defense powers and the like, most subtle(Heck, or tons of HLs, with a fairly high regen). Hero system does it with stuff like Combat Luck and very forgiving damage rules. In Aberrant...either he's near equal power, has something protecting him, or is dead if he's fighting on the same team with Thor. The system tends to magnify the squishiness of people. Yes, that means that it's much harder to do something like the Avengers. But a bit easier and simple to do the High and middle areas of the power curve.

[SkyLion]

Oh, and to note, Bodymorph already gives you a defense versus what you're turned into, energy wise. And lets you buy invulnerability as one of your dots, if appropriate.

Meh. Id give invulnerability as part of the package. It just makes sense. On one hand there is the Hero system where you DO have to pay for everything. Like if your flight is jet boots and you want to have them actually be jets that could damage someone if you launched in their face, you would have to pay for that. For certain simulations that gets *really* expensive.

On the other end of the spectrum is Marvel Super Heroes, where you can have only one power but make almost unlimited thematically derived stunts off of it. That IMHO is an awesome way to work the genre.

In the middle is Heroes Unlimited which goes to great lengths to describe everything individually and spell things out on a per power basis.

I would personally invoke the golden rule of "it makes sense." If your flight is jet powered it would do damage in someones face. Otherwise one risks that big word verisimilitude if one tries to actually use one's special effects in game.

As for the differing power levels comment...Hawkeye, if he's to have any chance under Aberrant rules, needs tons of defense powers and the like, most subtle(Heck, or tons of HLs, with a fairly high regen). Hero system does it with stuff like Combat Luck and very forgiving damage rules. In Aberrant...either he's near equal power, has something protecting him, or is dead if he's fighting on the same team with Thor. The system tends to magnify the squishiness of people. Yes, that means that it's much harder to do something like the Avengers. But a bit easier and simple to do the High and middle areas of the power curve.

Youre thinking of it too much as a straight game and not enough as a story. In Star Wars original edition for example the PCs have litteral "script immunity." I think all role playing games should have this idea. Most people figure it out with common sense. Script Immunity can only be overruled when players do something deliberately stupid that doesn't serve the story.STs call this "fudging."

Applied to Hawkeye in Aberrant he would most defintely NOT have regeneration. He doesn't have that in the comics..hes just a super skilled guy. I would simulate him with maxed atts and skills and a dot of Mega Dex (Accuracy) and Mega Wits (Quickness) and a bunch of really cool arrows.

[Alex Green]

Applied to Hawkeye in Aberrant...I would simulate him with maxed atts and skills and a dot of Mega Dex (Accuracy) and Mega Wits (Quickness) and a bunch of really cool arrows.

Agreed.

I think we have a house rule for superior Accuracy with Arrows somewhere.

Hawk could be built pretty easily with 30 nova points, maybe a lot less. Thor of course would need a lot more.

Those two on the same team is akin to the Superman/Batman argument, i.e. in the fight Supes should be wasting the other side 99% of the time before Bats gets to make his first action.

Mixed teams are hard without a writer.

[SkyLion]

Writer = ST.

In the bat/supes example, the ST has Caliban, or Darkseid show up to keep supes busy while the other heroes have to take care of the actual situation...

[BcAugust]

Writer = ST.

In the bat/supes example, the ST has Caliban, or Darkseid show up to keep supes busy while the other heroes have to take care of the actual situation...

Hmm, I'd say no, but this is where we get into fundamental gaming differences. The Storyteller isn't a writer, he's building a world for the players, then all together they're making a game. Besides, your verisimilitude isn't mine, and it need not be. I'd much rather have real character motivations then real physics.

And unless you force niche protection on your players with an iron hand, I don't see much reason "in game" for a much more powerful nova to be fighting the same threats that a much less powerful nova does. You want Caliban or Darkeid to show up every week with minions? Or have to ask the higher point player to sit out(Like they do to Thor all the time in the comics) while you game with the rest?

There are some gaming systems and some groups that can handle extremely varied power levels in the group, but most of the time, in my experience, it's been a recipe for disaster.

[SkyLion]

I can see where you are coming from BC, and thats why I mentioned maturity. It would take a rare cast indeed to be able to pull off what I am suggesting. I came close one time to playing in such a game but it fell through. :sigh: I just feel like sometimes people get so caught up in the limitations of mechanics that they forget that they serve the story, not the other way around.

Persoannly I think Immolate should stack with ones punches. The description says it is suposed to be deadly in combat, but unless you max it out at Q5, any combat Nova I can think of is going to shrug it off, which makes it not only unattractive but also seem stupid and silly.

[Alex Green]

Personally I think Immolate should stack with ones punches.

The majority of Immolates (as I think you have admitted) would not stack with a punch. Fire and Fist. Lethal and Fist. Agg and Fist. Radiation/Energy and Fist. Lots of spinning darts circling you and Fist.

While it's *possible* to come up with combinations where it might make sense, this is more of a theme consideration and can be represented more easily with things like Claws.

The description says it is supposed to be deadly in combat, but unless you max it out at Q5, any combat Nova I can think of is going to shrug it off, which makes it not only unattractive but also seem stupid and silly.

"Deadly in combat" doesn't have to be the same as "can kill novas with a decent soak in combat". Very few things are as tough as a nova.

Further, Immolate gets +3 Bashing per dot. Q-Bolt gets +4 Bashing per dot. Mega-Strength gets +5 Bashing per dot. Immolate has advantages the other two do not, on the face of it they seem pretty balanced.

Still further, Immolate just shuts down lots of combos and character types. "Quick" becomes a lot less useful when you take ping damage for every attack you launch, ditto swarms of Mitoids. Immolate lets you walk through walls. Immolate also has the real chance of pinging someone twice with one attack.

Granted, it is not an uber high soak nova killer, but if you want that then you should buy Disintegration.

[SkyLion]

While it's *possible* to come up with combinations where it might make sense, this is more of a theme consideration and can be represented more easily with things like Claws.

Doesn't work for my idea. Claws makes damage lethal and I am specifically going for a bashing immolate.

also has the real chance of pinging someone twice with one attack.

Im the wrong guy to argue that point to. I hate the oing rules. I think they are stupid and and very poor idea. They were put in to somehow trump high soak even though we do have the puny human "option." Ping damage was never in the old storyteller system. Id rather see combat maneuvers that allow two characters to gang up and stack damage on a high soak character (a la Marvel Superheroes) than see stupid ping damage. Can I say that again? I HATE the ping rule. ::angry

Granted, it is not an uber high soak nova killer, but if you want that then you should buy Disintegration.

Again see above. I am looking for a bashing effect.

[SkyLion]

I just had a great idea! One that I think would address immolate in relation to the other damage powers. Alex, your analysis of the per dot effect of immlate, q-bolt and M-Str was good. Eye opening even. BUt it made me think: If immolate is indeed a variant of Q-bolt, then it should be more like a q-bolt, meaning it should have a dmage add. This to me makes it a more Nova level combat power, that is, to reflect the power of Novas.

Mega Str is by far gets the best in terms of damage. Straight adds, 5 per dot. With a normalstrike you max out at 7 [25]. (This is just for Str as a damaging power, not counting things like accuracy and speed bonues, like rapid strike or hypermove).

A Qbolt, maxes for bashing at 20 [15]. Almost as good, like a Mega Str 3 Punch. Advantages: Range. Diasadvantage: costs alot of Quantum, Meaning that the Q 5 Nova above has a maximum of 15 shots before he runs fdry and thats without using any other kind of power or defense...not likely. An unreloadable clip of 15 is not a very good weapon. One could argue that you don't need too many shots when it does that much damage but for fighting platoons, Mega Str is a better choice for prolonged fighting. This Q Point limit is something that always miffed me about Abby...it makes things too short. Marvel is better...you can use your power pretty much whenever you want.

Immolate on the other hand maxes at a flat 20. No adds. It is a maintenace power though so thats good but I would like to see it with an add to give it that "Nova edge" it talks about in the section on damage adds.

Either [Quantum x 2] +(Power rating x2) bashing or [Quantum x 2] + (Power rating) lethal. This preserves the normal damage cap but makes it more effective from a rolled dice perspective. Alternately Keeping the x3, x2 as is and adding the Quantum x 2 add. That would max out a bashing at 15 [10] making a 5 immolate more like a Mega Str 5 punch but with an average of 16 damage levels including adds, whereas a Mega Str 5 punch would do 28 levels. Compare that with the average 23 levels done by a Q5 bashing 5 dot Q-bolt.

Thoughts?

[Alex Green]

Doesn't work for my idea. Claws makes damage lethal and I am specifically going for a bashing immolate.

Buy claws and slap a weakness on them saying it doesn't covert to lethal.

If immolate is indeed a variant of Q-bolt, then it should be more like a q-bolt, meaning it should have a damage add...

Rather than altering the damage, why not just buy an extra for the power?

Armor Piercing would work (taking the succ used to hit you and reducing the guys soak), that extra that lets it to half damage over the next [dots] rounds would work, and if you can talk the ST into you might be able to take SuperCharged from Q-Bolt.

[Quantum x 2] +(Power rating x2) bashing

So it'd max out to 10[10], and it'd start at 2[10].

Sounds like something that would result from an extra. (See above paragraph).

[SkyLion]

Buy claws and slap a weakness on them saying it doesn't covert to lethal.

Possible and affordable. How many points of a weakness do you think that would be? Since it takes away half of what the power does? 3? 5?

Rather than altering the damage, why not just buy an extra for the power?

Beacause its more expensive and I only modified the damage slightly to balance it more with the other two damaging powers. I thought my comparison was pretty good actually.

that extra that lets it to half damage over the next [dots] rounds would work

That would be burning, which mostly sucks unless you are maxed out, although the knockback effect from a bashing attack would be funny (and difficult to explain as "burning.")

and if you can talk the ST into you might be able to take SuperCharged from Q-Bolt.

Dude that would suck so hard core. Every time someone touched you you would take an automatic level of bashing damage. And if you are already suggesting that idea, or modifying supercharge to take away the bashing then we are already into house rule and ST talk territory so how is that any different than rebalancing the damage??? Granted Supercharge would be cool and worth the extra and Q-cost especially if its maintenace but again, we are in ST realm (Or in my case "community moderated" realm, which IMHO is worse...)

So it'd max out to 10[10], and it'd start at 2[10].

Only if you had Q5 dude. The way you wrote that skews the issue. Its a Q2 min power... it would start at 2[4]and max at 10[10] or 15[10] (bashing only) if my proposal would be accepted.

Sounds like something that would result from an extra. (See above paragraph).

No it doesn't. I increased the damage max either not at all or only slightly depending on which mod is picked. Not worthe the price (NP and QP) of an extra. Maaaaybe if it was supercharge where you did power rating x6. That would be worth it, especially with a damage add for Quantum.

And yeah here is the math on that: Starts at 6 [4] and maxes at 30 [10]. Not bad for 5 dots in a level 3 power and the price (in both NPs and/or BPs and taint) of q5.

[Alex Green]

Possible and affordable. How many points of a weakness do you think that would be? Since it takes away half of what the power does? 3? 5?

It's not 5 since you're able to use it on nights other than the full moon and it's still useful all the time. Intuition says 2... but you could turn those into extra dice.

Beacause its more expensive and I only modified the damage slightly to balance it more with the other two damaging powers.

The key word is "balance". You're making the damage balance but not getting rid of Immolate's other strengths (it's a maint power and triggered on other people's attacks).

That would be burning, which mostly sucks unless you are maxed out, although the knockback effect from a bashing attack would be funny (and difficult to explain as "burning.")

So zero it or define it as convulsions or something.

Dude that would suck so hard core. Every time someone touched you you would take an automatic level of bashing damage.

Presumably you'd be activating it and probably for the round, not every attack.

And if you are already suggesting that idea, or modifying supercharge to take away the bashing then we are already into house rule and ST talk territory so how is that any different than rebalancing the damage???

Because you'd be paying more for it and getting some draw backs. Otherwise you're simply trying to make the claim that Immolate is unbalanced in the system, and I think that's a tougher claim to make since powers aren't balanced by themselves, they're balanced against the system as a whole.

Granted Supercharge would be cool and worth the extra and Q-cost especially if its maintenace but again, we are in ST realm...

Yep.

Only if you had Q5 dude. The way you wrote that skews the issue. Its a Q2 min power... it would start at 2[4]and max at 10[10] or 15[10] (bashing only) if my proposal would be accepted.

It's back of the envelope calculations. And back of the envelope needs to assume that someone who is buying the power is going to try to make the most of it. How many people with Q-Bolt out there have a Q of 1? Generally speaking, you don't even consider Q-bolt unless you're at Q4+. I put down what the players would actually buy and thus what the ST should count on seeing.

No it doesn't. I increased the damage max either not at all or only slightly depending on which mod is picked. Not worthe the price (NP and QP) of an extra. Maaaaybe if it was supercharge where you did power rating x6. That would be worth it, especially with a damage add for Quantum.

Immolate isn't supposed to be able to one punch people, it's built to punish people for attacking you. Auto-succ damage is pretty grim for this sort of thing, especially when we see how Immolate deals with doing Agg damage.

[SkyLion]

The key word is "balance". You're making the damage balance but not getting rid of Immolate's other strengths (it's a maint power and triggered on other people's attacks).

If we go with the first lower damage suggestion I came up with its still balanced with consideration to immolates strengths. IE, its still the least damaging option of the straight damage powers.

Otherwise you're simply trying to make the claim that Immolate is unbalanced in the system

Yep! Along with several other bugs that need fixing... ::ultracool

Auto-succ damage is pretty grim for this sort of thing, especially when we see how Immolate deals with doing Agg damage.

I agree and under the section on damage adds it states that this is what Nova power is capable of. I think if Immolate is a variant of q-bolt it should be more like a q-bolt...

[Alex Green]

Q-Bolt is dodgeable, this isn't. Q-Bolt lasts an extremely short amount of time, this can last scenes.

Give me the pool and Q-bolt, and I can tell you the max damage.

Immolate can in theory do an infinite amount of damage.

[SkyLion]

Maybe? If you have RQC and use it at half power...

I still don't see the problem. A simple damage add without increasing the max makes it more nova-ish if you read the source material and the damage add section on why they *are* damage adds.

Heck, if it makes you feel better just change the Quantum plus part to the damage add...so thats an add of [2] to [5]. Not so horrible?

And immolate is arguably more dodgable than a qbolt...just run away from the guy using it! Dont hit him! Figure out another way! Mentatl Blast him! Game Balance is about more than just the side by side stat comparrison yanno...