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Aberrant RPG - Ultimate damage


sutekh

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Right, which is why I said 'unless it's agg'. You miss-quoted me. Also, if he used his spears, which he likes to do, he wouldn't take any damage at all, though they might get damaged, depending on what the heads are made of. Not to mention that if the ST allows Healing to be used on agg, he could heal at least some of the damage.

Actually, no. He could use his Q-Leech w/ the Energy Siphon extra every round if he wanted and still attack you several times, and he drains 9qp each use. Honestly, I'm glad we're not facing him, 'cause I doubt we'd be able to take him, even with all of us working together against just him. He's quick, powerful, skilled, smart, hard to hit, and tough. The only saving grace about him is that he only does around 15[10] lethal or so even with the spears, which could be a lot worse.

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Immolate isn't supposed to drastically alter the balance of a nova vs. nova brick fest, nor should it considering everything else it does and that it only has a Q min of 2.

Immolate is a speciality power. It wouldn't be that hard to build an interesting character around it, but it isn't something that is supposed to affect game balance. Like many powers, it rocks more when used against baselines than novas.

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I'm still with bahamut on this one i feel it should stack, but it is most definately an ST call, in the QZ games it doesn't stack in any of mine (eventually I'll have some set up) it will stack with strength.

I though Immolate damage sucked when it stacked now it sucks even harder for a level 2, Claws stays the maintance close combat power of choice for me.

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I though Immolate damage sucked when it stacked....

?? Assume it stacks. The DMD could get two levels for 11 exp, effectively making his HTH Mega-Strength 7.

And that's at low levels. In theory it could boost M-Str 5's damage up to M-Str 9.

That's the game breaking part of stacking damage and why stacking is rare.

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since when did DMD have 10 or 20 q? Thats the only way to get [10] or [20] with that power. If he made it a bashing attack, then 4q, 2 immolate would provide him 6d[4]. Yea..he could roll all successes...if your lucky. In a place we call reality though, its not going to happen more then once in a blue moon.

And as said before, the highest a normal character will ever get it is 10[5]L or 15[5]b (5 immolate, 5q). thats not 'buy 2 dots and there you go" thatsa lotta xp/np to get.

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since when did DMD have 10 or 20 q?  Thats the only way to get [10] or [20] with that power.  If he made it a bashing attack, then 4q, 2 immolate would provide him 6d[4].  Yea..he could roll all successes...if your lucky.  In a place we call reality though, its not going to happen more then once in a blue moon.
He doesn't need to "get lucky". The number to worry about is "6d[4]."

Assuming you are soaking all his auto succ (which is harder, there are more people with a 25 soak than 29), he is still doing 10 more dice. Those 10 dice are unlikely to be soaked, so that averages an extra 4 life levels.

It's unlikely to be soaked because a thirty-ish attack just turned into a fourty-ish attack. And that's just what DMD or Alloy could do with 11 exp.

If we build a character around this we end up with Mega-Str 5 +15[5] bashing, and all of a sudden the DMD needs to worry about being one punched. Better still, this is from a maintenance power, so he can do this again and again, etc. It's like having 20 dots in claws.

Oh, and on top of that he still has the "touch me and it hurts you" business.

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Character built to take advantage of Immolate Stacking

Bonus Points: -6 in flaws and +3Q(total 4)

Nova Points: Item Bought

03 : +1 Q (total 5, taint = 2)

15 : +5 Immolate (bashing) (15[5])

03 : +1 Bodymorph (Density Increase)

09 : +3 M-Str

Total = 30, Taint = 2

Strike does 24[30] or 54+attack succ

vs 25 soak this averages 14.6 life levels

vs 35 soak this averages 7.6 LL

vs 45 soak this averages 3.6 LL

And this is just off hand. Only 20 of his attack comes from Immolate, but that 20 on top of his 34 really hurts. It wouldn't be that hard to flesh out this character and make him actually useful. Since objects don't take bashing, they just take damage, he really needs flight or that 20d immolate is going to cause problems.

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Ye gods and little fishes, god forbid that DMD would actually take some non-ping damage from a HTH attack. That must be unbalanced. I take it all back, Immolate should never stack. ::rolleyes Gimmie a break. Give DMD a single dot of FF and he's suddenly completely fine again. Honestly, Alex, you could make a character with Immolate 5, Q5, and Mega-Str 5, but he'd have a bunch of Taint, and nothing else. A single well-placed attack could take him out. So bring it on I say, and when he gets killed his first time out, before he manages to hit anyone, I promise I'll laugh. ::tongue

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Wow...by buying levels in a combative ability...his combat abilities get better...

A bruiser like DMD (and anyone with growth, density increase and the like) tilt the scales a little because they gain strength based on that one ability. Does that make Growth, Density increase, Bodymorph and the like "wrong" because it gives str and therefor automatic damage (*not dice, automatic*). No, it dosent.

they get 10 dice, but its still weaker then 2 levels of M-str...for the same price in NP.

On average...10 dice will yield 4 successes. that makes 4 *possible* successes. Are you comparing that to a no-question 10 successes?

And lets get this strait...if DMD powers up and *buys* 2 levels of Immolate...it would be (assuming str 5, mstr 5, 4q and 2 bashing immolate):

15[25]b. For puny humans it would make no difference. For 'puny nova's' it makes no difference. For combat nova's it makes a difference *slightly*. This would be the purpose of the power after all.

This power (if included stacking) is no more broken then growth or density increase is.

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Um. By the way, Alex, unless I'm missing something, Immolate doesn't provide any damage Auto-successes. According to the errata in the APG the correct damage for Immolate is either Q+(pr*3) bashing or Q+(pr*2) lethal. Either way, there are no [] in there, and thus no auto-successes. That maxes it out at 20dB and 15dL.

Edited to remove the Agg stats since apparently if it's agg it does actually do auto-successes...

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You guys are still whinging in favour of making 'a problem' worse by adding an extremely cheap multi-use power into the mix. Every time you do that you get another way to spend lowX xp buying something that stacks with something else costing lowX XP.

In a perfect world we would be able to cut out the middleman and force powers that stack to add their XP costs together. Eg. Mega Str + Claws would have XP costs stacking. Armour & forcefield would have XP costs stacking. And so on.

But the game isn't designed that way. It's designed so that cheap offensive powers do lots of damage so that you need to buy multiple or high levels of defensive powers to resist them.

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You guys are still whinging in favour of making 'a problem' worse by adding an extremely cheap multi-use power into the mix.

I really do resent that. We are not whining. Discussing, and debating. Possibly argueing. But not whining. We at least are bringing civility, facts and comparisons to this.

. Every time you do that you get another way to spend lowX xp buying something that stacks with something else costing lowX XP.

Yea...just like soak does.

In a perfect world we would be able to cut out the middleman and force powers that stack to add their XP costs together. Eg. Mega Str + Claws would have XP costs stacking. Armour & forcefield would have XP costs stacking. And so on.

And it is a perfect world then. I dont know whats stopping you but If I have 12 xp I can buy a first dot of armor and a first dot of force field. or 10 to buy second dots in them respectivley. Or, what the hay, 11 to buy a first dot in one and a second in another.

XP is progressive after all.

But the game isn't designed that way. It's designed so that cheap offensive powers do lots of damage so that you need to buy multiple or high levels of defensive powers to resist them.

Hmm...lets see. People have offensive power. Lets *not* buy defensive powers and get into a brawl and see what happens. That was lodestones problem. His only defense was magnetic shield. I had underestimated the elite environment. Now he has Force Field and can go toe to toe with more then a few people now.

What a shame..I had to spend XP on defense, when there are people with offensive powers. I couldent get by with a baseline soak in a super-power game....

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Just for reference, you're generally better off buying a dot of Mega-Stamina than a second dot of FF. Also, Bahamut is right, there are plenty of powers that can add substantially to soak, and few that do really huge amounts of damage. Still, a Supercharged Q-Bolt can do 20d[30] bashing while your Mega-Str'd Immolate character does 25[25] bashing, which generally speaking isn't as much, and isn't ranged either. Seems pretty balanced, if you ask me.

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Alex, you could make a character with Immolate 5, Q5, and Mega-Str 5, but he'd have a bunch of Taint, and nothing else. A single well-placed attack could take him out. So bring it on I say, and when he gets killed his first time out, before he manages to hit anyone, I promise I'll laugh.  ::tongue
If you or someone else allowing this runs something, I will. ::devil ::shocked
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...a Supercharged Q-Bolt can do 20d[30] bashing while your Mega-Str'd Immolate character does 25[25] bashing, which generally speaking isn't as much, and isn't ranged either. Seems pretty balanced, if you ask me.

He does 24[30], which is actually more. He is also a character maxxed for Q and for Immolate. I did some checking and I could shave 11 points off him and only do a little less damage (but still 50+).

Supercharge costs 6q and one level of bashing to throw. The Immolate character is only paying maintenance.

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Supercharge costs 6q and one level of bashing to throw. The Immolate character is only paying maintenance.

And has no range beyond touch. So while the guy tossing Q-bolts and flies kills you off in 1~2 hits (you dont have any defense, remember?) for under half his qp...you are standing there wishing you had planned your character better, or he didnt fly (take your pick).

Its balanced that way.

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Um. Alex, Immolate as I pointed out above doesn't do any auto-damage unless it's agg. It's all damage dice. Check the books if you don't believe me. So it's a base, at Q4, with a regular strike of 26[25], not 24[30]. At Q5 and below the only power I know of that does [30] is a supercharged Q-Bolt. Also, you're having to buy several different powers and combine them, where as the Q-bolt is stand-alone, ranged, doesn't make it so you can't stand on the second story of a building, or touch anyone or anything, and can be used to do less damage if you want. Not to mention the ranged combat manuevers you can perform with it at level 5.

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This is NOT god talking...

::priest

::praying

::wink

... but I've always seen Immolate as more of a utility / passive 'offense' type of power than a 'nova-combat' sort of a power. It is, after all, very useful for a lot of things:

Against baselines - the sensible ones just keep away from you (as do non-bricked-up Novas)

Against objects - this includes, of course, weapons - none of which get anything like a 'Nova-level' Soak score. Don't attack an Immolated character with your prized family Daisho unless you want to anger your honoured ancestors... ::lookaround There's also the ability to Immolate yourself through walls, tanks, & similar stuff that's a pretty nifty trick. Players often forget that high-Soak Novas are not representative of the physical environment of the game world. Immolate damage may not even 'ping' the DMD, but it can make a god-aweful mess of stuff like brick walls, bank vaults, the earth beneath your feet, etc., etc.... ::shocked

For knockback - often forgotten, but some pretty tough 'combat' Novas can still be tossed about the place with the good ol' knockback rules. Bashing Immolate is the best for this - every time the opponent punches you he not only smacks you away, but ends up across the room on his ass as well - maybe it's not doing him any Health Levels of damage, but it puts him at a tactical advantage - not to mention makes him look pretty darned silly to boot! ::laugh

Various miscellaneous stuff - like destroying gasses that come into contact with the character.

To me (just an opinion, mind ::tongue ::wink ) the text for Immolate doesn't paint it as a primarily offensive ability - dangerous, yes, but not a purely combat-power like Quantum Bolt or Claws.

As to what the rules are actually saying - well, the combat section defines a 'damage effect' on p.241, & mentions that Soak is subtracted from that on p.242. The damage effect of Immolate never mentions an addition of punch or any similar damage - just that the Immolate still gets to do damage if the Nova punches, instead of just touches, the victim. Reading the text in context we see that it first mentions that an Immolated character trying to touch someone to damage them counts as an attempted attack. This appears to be a clarification to protect against twinkish players who could otherwise claim that they get to touch as many people as they want in a round for 'free' as it isn't, technically, an 'attack'. The clarification then goes further to state that this fact doesn't mean that a character needs to choose between a punch & Immolate damage - since, after all, the character is still Immolated as he's punching his victim. None of that, to me, suggests adding the two damages together.

Again, in WW games, damage effect does not work on the principle that 2+2=4, since it's the excess damage effect over the target's Soak that is important. As an example:

Guy Nukey has Strength 3 (his punches do 5 dice worth of Bashing damage), Quantum 2, & Immolate - Nuclear Plasma [bashing] 1 (which also does 5 dice worth of Bashing damage).

Now, Guy is in a fight with Steve Tougho. Steve has a Bashing Soak of 10, & the game uses the 'Puny Human' rules. Guy's Immolate isn't intense enough to even have a chance of hurting Steve - it's just not that powerful. Guy's punch is in the same boat, unless he gets a good roll to hit Steve. So, if Steve is totally impervious to both the plasma & the punch, why would one overlapped on the other have any more chance of hurting him? It just doesn't make any sense.

If Guy attacks a tough baseline (with a Bashing Soak of 5) it's even worse. The baseline only takes 'ping' damage from either the punch or the Immolate. If the two stacked then, for no apparant reason, he'd suddenly be taking 5 dice worth of damage from the Immolated punch.

But that's characters, & they aren't always the best examples. Let's look at Guy trying to punch through a reinforced concrete wall (which we'll give a Soak of 5). His punch can't produce enough force to damage the wall. His Immolate isn't intense enough to damage the wall. Why would his Immolated punch have any more of a chance of damaging the wall if the wall's material is tough enough to withstand both components of the attack? ::confused

As a parallel think about how the game system treats a character who is shot by two guns at once, even when it's by a lone gunman with a pistol in either hand as a single attack (multiple-)action. The gun's 5 dice of Lethal damage are applied to the target's Soak twice, they aren't added together into 10 dice of Lethal damage. This makes perefect sense - after all, two pistol rounds aren't the same thing as a single high-powered round from a heavy rifle! It's the same thing with Immolate & hand-to-hand attacks: both the damage effects apply, sure, but the target's Soak is applied to each damage effect in full.

You can also turn the concept around & look at it from the other side: just because a target is getting hit by two attacks at the same time, doesn't mean his Soak should be halved against each, or only apply against one of those attacks. There's no rule to suggest that a character only gets his Soak value once per round of combat - that would be silly. Soak is applied to each & every damage effect that hits the character - Immolate is a seperate damage effect, even if it doesn't take a seperate action to apply it.

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You know, all this discussion has gotten me to thinking that I might be willing to run a 'twink' game. Essentially I'd allow just about anything so long as it didn't conflict with the basic rules of the game. It'd be an excuse for all of you folks to make and run your favorite twinked-out character concepts, and see how they'd do. ::devilangel Would anyone be interested in such a game, and/or have ideas for the setting, etc.? ::bigsmile I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what you guys thinks before starting to solidify anything.

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You know, all this discussion has gotten me to thinking that I might be willing to run a 'twink' game. Essentially I'd allow just about anything so long as it didn't conflict with the basic rules of the game. It'd be an excuse for all of you folks to make and run your favorite twinked-out character concepts, and see how they'd do. ::devilangel  Would anyone be interested in such a game, and/or have ideas for the setting, etc.?  ::bigsmile  I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what you guys thinks before starting to solidify anything.

We should start a new topic for this and talk about rules and points and such.

I'm all in favor of twinkery, but a common set of rules needs to be talked about.

This would prevent Joe Nova, made to exploit rule XYZ, is made and then Joe's player finds out that he was reading the rule wrong.

Are we talking about 30 nova points?

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  • 2 years later...

Bwahahaha! RIIISE! RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE! BWAHAHAHA!

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*ahem*

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Just a lil thread necromancy here. I was thinking about an immolate efect and i just *knew* the question of stacking would come up.

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I just wanted to add my two cents in on the whole force+energy thing.

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What got me thinking that immolate should stack is that the military uses armor piercing incendiary rounds as armor piercing tank weapons. The kinetic force and the extreme heat combine to melt/puncture right through the tank armor (and incinerate the crew). Hmm...an armor piercing immolate would be veery effective then...since your attack success would negate soak for the purpose of the punch damage and the immolate (being one attack roll) even if they dont stack. A great reason for ap claws too...

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Sorry, but you got the mechanism for AP-Incendiary wrong.

The incendiary component isn't to help pierce the armor better. Its to ensure any ammo or fuel struck once past the armor is ignited. It really makes no difference unless it already pierces the armor.

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dude this stuff can be phosphrous...you cant tell me that stuffs not going to melt through tank armor...look at the DU rounds used in the A10 Thunderbolt Warthog...

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WP won't do much more than make the paint bubble on tank armor. GAU-8 ammo pierces tank armor because the things are massive, travelling at high velocity, and come by the hundred. The pyrophoric property of DU only kicks in *after* its successfully pierced the armor, when it sets stuff inside on fire.

There has yet to be a single weapon short of a nuke at ground zero that could kill tanks by heat, rather than kinetic force. Yes, that includes HEAT/Shaped Charge warheads; they work by producing a high velocity jet of 'solid' copper, or otherwise propelling a physical penetrator.

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WP won't do much more than make the paint bubble on tank armor. GAU-8 ammo pierces tank armor because the things are massive, travelling at high velocity, and come by the hundred. The pyrophoric property of DU only kicks in *after* its successfully pierced the armor, when it sets stuff inside on fire.

There has yet to be a single weapon short of a nuke at ground zero that could kill tanks by heat, rather than kinetic force. Yes, that includes HEAT/Shaped Charge warheads; they work by producing a high velocity jet of 'solid' copper, or otherwise propelling a physical penetrator.

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Its not a rather situation...both contribute.

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I did some wiki research and it appears we are both correct. Your description I found under High Explosive Incendiary. Howerver I was talking about Armor Piercing Incendiary where..

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."The primary purpose of these munitions is armor penetration, but unlike SLAP rounds (Saboted-Light Armor Penetrator) which get their armor piercing ability from the propulsion of a 7.62mm tungsten heavy alloy bullet from a 12.7mm barrel (.50" cal.) with much more energy than is usually possible from a 7.62mm round (plus the fact that a tungsten alloy bullet will completely destroy the rifling of the barrel—hence the plastic sabot), the HEIAP munitions use high explosives to "blast a path" for the penetrator."
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I would say that calls for more than merely "making paint bubble"...

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So in Abby terms its like the immolate melting through soak with a solid mega strength sabot punch right behind...

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...damage stacks mein freund!

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So in Abby terms its like the immolate melting through soak with a solid mega strength sabot punch right behind...
That's not an immolate effect. That's a q-bolt.

Thus bringing us back to the "if I q-bolt him at the time I punch him it stacks?" Question.

And the answer is that it doesn't.

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