Aberrant RPG - Ultimate damage

[knave]

where your hands are in the clinch is arbitrary.

lets for a little example shall we.

let's take bob. Bob has quantum 5, immolate 5, quickness 5, quantum bolt 5, claws 5, mega strength 5 and crush, and mega dex 5, and accuracy.

bob activates his immolate (cheese) and attacks with his claws (cheese)... he uses his quickness and mega acc to delay his crush(cheese) punch attack so that it contact his opponent at the exact same moment that he fires his quantum cheese bolt out of his fist.

Shouldn't all the cheese damage types stack?

How would you feel if you were the 'allergic to cheese' pc who got hit by it?

sorry mate - you're wrong.

Aberrant is a system that largely ignores the 'special effects' of what things are and concentrates on what power they're using... A Clawed punch is still a punch. A clawed punch with immolate is still a punch with immolate.

Now - on to your flaming sword question.

The easy rationale is - imagine you hit hellboy. HB has a soak of 10 but an immunity to 18 levels of fire damage. Let's assume you do 30 damage. 15 kinetic and 15 flame. Does hellboy take the flame damage? Hell no. Why is that? Cause he's immune to the fire. If the fire stacked then how does soak work? Would you say 30 - 10 = 20 or 30 - 18 = 12, or 30 - 15 -10 = 5.

The answer is simple. 15 - 10 = 5. Max(15 - 18, 0) = 0

Look throughout the book. The rule of thumb is that soak stacks, damage doesn't unless a power is specifically design to modify another.

[Alex Green]

...this comes down to the test...

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? If he can shoot it out of his arm, then yes, otherwise no

Is it at the exact same time (of attack)? Yes (all in the same attack)

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? no...clinches do bashing damage, unless you crush

First, you can define a q-bolt to be just about anything. DMD could define his as "Ranged Dark Matter Punch/Tendril". You can also shout it out of pretty near anything. So by your logic, DMD could buy Q-Bolt and have it stack with his punch or whatever.

Second, NONE of your "test" is in the book. In the book, damage effects stack when they SAY they stack. Q-bolt doesn't say it stacks. Immolate doesn't say it stacks. Therefore they don't.

RE: The answer is simple. 15 - 10 = 5. Max(15 - 18, 0) = 0

True, but he still gets a "ping" die from the fire.

[Bahamut810]

let's take bob. Bob has quantum 5, immolate 5, quickness 5, quantum bolt 5, claws 5, mega strength 5 and crush, and mega dex 5, and accuracy.

bob activates his immolate (cheese) and attacks with his claws (cheese)... he uses his quickness and mega acc to delay his crush(cheese) punch attack so that it contact his opponent at the exact same moment that he fires his quantum cheese bolt out of his fist.

The thing is that he wouldent be able to hit the *exact* same place without mega-perc and mega-wits. You have to take into account the fact that the person who is being attacked will move as well as the nova. Basically he *can* be quick and presise, but he wont be able to *be* that presise while being that quick.

Also it wont be hitting at the *exact* same time. To determine if it does, does it take an action? if it does then its not hitting at the same time.

A round in aberrant is 3 seconds. If you have quickness of 1, you can make an attack every 1.5 seconds. 2 every second. 3 every .75 seconds. 4 every .6 seconds. The point is that there is time in between the shots.

Im sure there will come a point when the time is so small it wont matter...I would put that at about 7 actions (.42 seconds) as less then half a second is mighty quick.

But to get it they would have to have decent values in m-wits, m-dex, and m-perc.

How would you feel if you were the 'allergic to cheese' pc who got hit by it?

I would be all like "Man...I knew that all that taint had to mean *something*"

sorry mate - you're wrong.

No im not. The book backs this side of the arguement more then that one ::wink

The easy rationale is - imagine you hit hellboy. HB has a soak of 10 but an immunity to 18 levels of fire damage. Let's assume you do 30 damage. 15 kinetic and 15 flame. Does hellboy take the flame damage? Hell no. Why is that? Cause he's immune to the fire. If the fire stacked then how does soak work? Would you say 30 - 10 = 20 or 30 - 18 = 12, or 30 - 15 -10 = 5.

The answer is simple. 15 - 10 = 5. Max(15 - 18, 0) = 0

Then he dosent take fire damage. thats what immunity to fire means. That dosent affect this arguement at all. Your getting into power description now ::sly

Look throughout the book. The rule of thumb is that soak stacks, damage doesn't unless a power is specifically design to modify another.

Heck...I would take the fact that soak *does* stack as a source that damage would as well in certian situations.

[ConcreteDragon]

If someone stabs you with a heated knife (straight from the blacksmiths fire), you feel the 'damage' (im using this loosly mind you, dont try this at home kids!). Are you saying that the 'heat' part of it wouldent worsen the damage you would take

A knife does Str.+2d10L, the heat from the knife does 2d10L. I have 0 soak vs leathal, because I'm a baseline, so I take Str+4d10L in to my fat belly. ::shocked If you put the flat of the blade on me I would take a 2d10L burn from just the heat.

Then put me in an Armored Vest that has a Leathal soak of 4. Put the flat of the blade on the vest, and I take no damage. If the attacker has a strength of 2, then he can not peirce the vest with the knife, but according to the above example, I still take the 2d10L from the heat? That doesn't make

common sense that is compatable with Aberrant-sense.

[knave]

The thing is that he wouldent be able to hit the *exact* same place without mega-perc and mega-wits. You have to take into account the fact that the person who is being attacked will move as well as the nova. Basically he *can* be quick and presise, but he wont be able to *be* that presise while being that quick.

now you're having a wank.

[Bahamut810]

First, you can define a q-bolt to be just about anything. DMD could define his as "Ranged Dark Matter Punch/Tendril". You can also shout it out of pretty near anything. So by your logic, DMD could buy Q-Bolt and have it stack with his punch or whatever.

Second, NONE of your "test" is in the book. In the book, damage effects stack when they SAY they stack. Q-bolt doesn't say it stacks. Immolate doesn't say it stacks. Therefore they don't.

RE: The answer is simple. 15 - 10 = 5. Max(15 - 18, 0) = 0

True, but he still gets a "ping" die from the fire.

First. If you had a "no action" extra on it, yea. But then there is no "no action" extra.

Second, not my test is not in the book. But its how stacking damage works. Look at claws...

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? yes

Is it at the exact same time (of attack)? Yes (all in the same attack)

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? Yes, Claws turns physical bashing damage to lethal.

Therefore it stacks.

Lets look at your Q-bolt...

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Possibly (we will say yes for schnits)

Is it at the exact same time (of attack)? No

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? Possibly (it could be a bashing q-bolt)

There was a no in there...so no, that dosent stack. Simple test, simple strait forward results.

You could modify second one to say:

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform?

That is probably more straitforward. Heck lets use that from now on.

Claws:

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Yes

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? Yes.

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? Yes, Claws turns physical bashing damage to lethal.

Q-bolt:

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Possibly

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? No

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? Possibly

Same results, clearer wording. Do you deny the results are correct? I dont, this is how stacking is done, so why not use the test.

As for implicitly saying it stacks or no...it implies it heavily...very heavily. I dont have my book in front of me, but we do have the ""...anyone touching the nova takes..." which implies to me that it would stack.

now you're having a wank.

And thats a cheap shot thats OT ::tongue ::sly

[Bahamut810]

A knife does Str.+2d10L, the heat from the knife does 2d10L. I have 0 soak vs leathal, because I'm a baseline, so I take Str+4d10L in to my fat belly. ::shocked If you put the flat of the blade on me I would take a 2d10L burn from just the heat.

Then put me in an Armored Vest that has a Leathal soak of 4. Put the flat of the blade on the vest, and I take no damage. If the attacker has a strength of 2, then he can not peirce the vest with the knife, but according to the above example, I still take the 2d10L from the heat? That doesn't make

Well...the vest has 4 soak. It would soak the 2dL.

Makes perfect sense.

Edit - expanding this slightly

Thats another reason to give armor like that health levels. But...

If you took no damage it would be the "puny human" rule in effect. 2 possible is half of 4 soak.

Chanses are that a knife that hot (remember this is a knife that is probably red from the heat) you would be burned slightly taking a brused HL (skin would be red, and tender)

[Nullifier]

I'd like, if I may, to retun to the heated knife example. The whole point is made there. For instance, CD said that the knife does Str+2L by itself, plus 2dL for the heat for a total of Str+4dL. Now, say you hit someone with that knife that has 3 lethal soak. The damage from the heat and the damage from the knife aren't soaked seperately, since all the damage can from a single attack, in a single action, and a single source, namely the knife. Otherwise, the person would take a 'ping' of bashing damage and Str-1L damage. Clearly, however, the true damage they'd take would be Str+1L.

This illustrates the probelm with soaking immolate seperately rather well, I think. However, there's another example which I personally think clinches the case, namely Matter Chameleon. Now, MC allows for the character when they touch certain types of matter or energy that are normally damaging to the touch, to gain the ability to do amounts of damage merely by touch. These amounts of damage are not in any way linked to the Immolate power, but work in a simliar manner mechanics-wise, that is by touch. Now, it doesn't actually say anywhere that this damage stacks with other HTH attacks, or converts the damage type, but neither does it say that it doesn't. If a being made from living searing-hot lava punches you, it seems like that punch would be lethal and that the damage from being lava which MC provides would stack with the damage from the punch.

This seems to be functionally equivalent to say having Immolate as having lava all over your skin. I don't see any difference between the various situations in terms of their functionality, or mechanics, and it all seems to point to the damage stacking.

[knave]

I invoke Godwin's law. I don't care if I lose anymore.

[Bahamut810]

Godwin's law

Godwins law? Not heard of that one before....

[ConcreteDragon]

So, OK, the red hot knife(2d10L) placed against the 4 armor does PHU of 1d10B(1st degree burn).

But if the knife(4d10L) doesnt 'get through' the armor, how come would the heat from the knife suddunly be able to bypas the armor and inflict a 2d10L burn? The knife is still on the outside of the armor. The heat radiating from it still has to go through the armor to get to the skin. But if you allow stacking, then the knife does 4d10L+2d10L(burn)=6d10L-4 armor=2d10L, even though the knife didn't get through the armor and the heat source(the knife) is still outside the armor.??????????????????????????????????????????

Change the Immolate to acid and you get the same results, the acid it's self has to get to the person to affect him. It's the same with cold, electricity, and bumble bees.

If Lava man's punch is'nt strong enough to get past my Iridium Armor, Then his heat aura doesn't get to magicaly 'bypass' my armor, I still get the insulating properties of my armor from the burn.

If a Firefighter gets hit by a burning rafter falling from the celing, does the fire jump inside his fire resistant suit because the rafter broke some of his ribs?

I don't think so...........

[Alex Green]

If you had a "no action" extra on it, yea.  But then there is no "no action" extra.

Neither does your Immolate power. The action for Immolate came when you turned on the power.

...my test is...how stacking damage works.

If you can back that up with a page number then the argument ends. ::tongue

If you want some better examples,

Example 1: Joe Nova has a fire theme (all his powers are based on fire).

He has EM(Fire) 5 dots.

He has Q-Bolt(Fire) 5 dots.

He has Immolate(Fire) 5 dots.

If he sets up a firestorm (doing 10 lethal dice continually over an area), then he is damaging every inch of the place.

After he does that, his Q-Bolt's damage doesn't stack with his storm's damage even though they are at the same time, and the same energy type, and the same time. Ditto his immolate.

Example 2: Joe Nova also has M-Str 2.

He hits someone with his immolate field up.

Note please that hitting someone with his fist is *NOT* the same type of damage. He doesn't have claws and he doesn't have bodymorph.

Example 3: DMD

The big guy has bodymorph (no shock to anyone).

He gets +2 damage in his HTH from this.

Why? Because the rules say explicitly that he does.

Note that "no actions" or "exact place" or even "same energy type" don't come into play. Dark Matter isn't an energy type that is "the same" as mega-strength.

As for implicitly saying it stacks or no...it implies it heavily...very heavily.  I don't have my book in front of me, but we do have the ""...anyone touching the nova takes..." which implies to me that it would stack.

Except that we don't have any way to deal with even the most basic questions that result if it stacks.

If I have M-Str 3 with Crush, then I'm doing lethal damage. So does that convert my Bashing Immolate damage into lethal? Does it convert Immolate+Agg into lethal?

Example 4: Thermodynamics man.

My claws are defined as "Heat" and does lethal damage

But my Immolate is defined as "Cold" and does bashing damage.

Now this doesn't even pass your rules, so does it stack now?

If it does, then we are back to allowing themes and special effects grant very potent in game advantages.

[Bahamut810]

When I say type of damage, I would have thought you would have gathered I was talking about Lethal, Bashing and Agg type, not elemental type. But on to your example...

Lets test this...

Example 1: Joe Nova has a fire theme ...

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Possibly

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? Somewhat, mabey, possibly

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? yes

This would probably fail. If your grappleing (to immolate them) someone, your protecting him from said firestorm, punching them is the same. The Q-bolt might hit the same place as some of the firestorm, but its doughtful if your getting in close to immolate him.

Example 2: Joe Nova also has M-Str 2.

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Possibly

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? Somewhat, mabey, possibly

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? No

Again...it would probably fail. The Bashing would be soaked differently though.

Example 3: DMD

Yay! Something stated other then implied heavily

Example 4: Thermodynamics man.

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Yes

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? Yes

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? Yes (being lethal)

It would stack if you could get something like that by your ST ::sly

Like I said...its a simple test to see.

[Bahamut810]

The knife is still on the outside of the armor. The heat radiating from it still has to go through the armor to get to the skin. But if you allow stacking, then the knife does 4d10L+2d10L(burn)=6d10L-4 armor=2d10L, even though the knife didn't get through the armor and the heat source(the knife) is still outside the armor.??????????????????????????????????????????

The thing is that the knife would have penetrated the armor in some way in that case. Heat is known to soften most items (or burn them), which would make it *much* easier to penetrate the armor. But thats just details...

The thing is that the heat can hurt people/items badly (hense assigning it 2dL) and the armor only protects for 4.

[Alex Green]

When I say type of damage, I would have thought you would have gathered I was talking about Lethal, Bashing and Agg type, not elemental type.

Good to know. So Fire stacks with Ice as long as they are both lethal. Does it have to be just lethal, or do they have to be the same "energy vs. physical"?

But Example #4's Immolate + Claws wouldn't stack. Immolate was Bashing and Claws were Lethal. Similarly this means Example #2's stuff doesn't stack.

This in turn means that Immolate only sometimes stacks.

So my 67 lethal attack nova above could buy a 15 die immolate and do 82 lethal.

RE: Example 1

The example is just Q-Bolt + Firestorm.

You weren't clear whether those two would stack or not.

I'm really unsure what you meant when you said "immolating his opponent's would protect them from a firestorm." Would Immolate stack with firestorm or not? If his immolate is "whirling blades" (lethal), would that protect people from a firestorm? Would fire stack with ice again?

RE: Example 3: DMD

My point of bringing him out was that he fails your test, but the rules explicitly say his +2 does stack.

[Alex Green]

So, OK, the red hot knife(2d10L) placed against the 4 armor does PHU of 1d10B(1st degree burn).

But if the knife(4d10L) doesnt 'get through' the armor, how come would the heat from the knife suddunly be able to bypas the armor and inflict a 2d10L burn?

I've a better example. ::rolleyes

Joe Baseline has on SWAT battle armor (6 soak).

He gets hit with by an electified knife (knife is 4d, Electricity is another 2d).

Since we are saying these effects stack, Joe gets to soak them all.

But... electricity normally bypasses this type of armor. If Joe had to soak them seperately he would take nothing from the knife, but 2d lethal from the electricity. But fortunately for him they do stack so he could soak it all.

Or is that, he doesn't get to soak any of it? Is Joe considered naked to the knife?

[Bahamut810]

Good to know. So Fire stacks with Ice as long as they are both lethal. Does it have to be just lethal, or do they have to be the same "energy vs. physical"?

But Example #4's Immolate + Claws wouldn't stack. Immolate was Bashing and Claws were Lethal. Similarly this means Example #2's stuff doesn't stack.

This in turn means that Immolate only sometimes stacks.

So my 67 lethal attack nova above could buy a 15 die immolate and do 82 lethal.

RE: Example 1

The example is just Q-Bolt + Firestorm.

You weren't clear whether those two would stack or not.

I'm really unsure what you meant when you said "immolating his opponent's would protect them from a firestorm." Would Immolate stack with firestorm or not? If his immolate is "whirling blades" (lethal), would that protect people from a firestorm? Would fire stack with ice again?

RE: Example 3: DMD

My point of bringing him out was that he fails your test, but the rules explicitly say his +2 does stack.

Re. Energy vs Physical...

This makes no difference its the type of damage (again Bashing, Lethal Agg) that matters

Re. #4

My mistake with #4. I missed where it said bashing. That changes the test...

Is it at the exact same place (of the wound)? Yes

Is it and attack that takes no actions to perform? Yes

Is it the exact same type (of damage)? No (one bashing one lethal)

So It owuld not pass the test.

Re #2.

I already said the Str would not stack...it does bashing damage, not lethal and therefore fails the test.

Re #1

If you were to get close enough to immolate someone (i.e. touching) you would have to be in brawling range. That close and you would probably be considered "cover" for the storm (basically you stand between him and the part of the storm that would stack).

re. DMD

Does he do Lethal or Bashing damage? Is the entire attack converted? I cant remember the power *exactly* (i stay away from body morph powers most times, I have really only used it with frenchie and I just used it for the effect, not the 'extras' the power provides), but I would say it either adds bashing or changes the entire attack to Lethal (i.e. a la claws)

[Bahamut810]

I've a better example. ::rolleyes

Joe Baseline has on SWAT battle armor (6 soak).

He gets hit with by an electified knife (knife is 4d, Electricity is another 2d).

Since we are saying these effects stack, Joe gets to soak them all.

But... electricity normally bypasses this type of armor. If Joe had to soak them seperately he would take nothing from the knife, but 2d lethal from the electricity. But fortunately for him they do stack so he could soak it all.

Or is that, he doesn't get to soak any of it? Is Joe considered naked to the knife?

thing is the knife is hitting the *armor* not jow himself. Im sure it scorches teh armor (the extra damage), but unless he is wet the armor will take the damage.

[Alex Green]

thing is the knife is hitting the *armor* not joe himself.  Im sure it scorches the armor (the extra damage), but unless he is wet the armor will take the damage.

Nope. When I said bypassed that's what I meant. Electricity (as indicated in the core book), just bypasses most forms of armor.

If he were holding a wire and taking the jolt plainly, he would take 2d because the current goes through him.

Re. Energy vs Physical...

This makes no difference its the type of damage (again Bashing, Lethal Agg) that matters

So fire stacks with ice. Got it.

RE: Immolate only sometimes stacking.

If now we are saying that immolate doesn't stack with multiple damage types then I don't see why you could say that it ever stacks.

Re #1

If you were to get close enough to immolate someone (i.e. touching) you would have to be in brawling range.  That close and you would probably be considered "cover" for the storm (basically you stand between him and the part of the storm that would stack).

??? The question isn't whether he gets damaged by both effects (he does). The question is whether those effects stack.

re. DMD

Does he do Lethal or Bashing damage?  Is the entire attack converted?  I cant remember the power *exactly* (i stay away from body morph powers most times, I have really only used it with frenchie and I just used it for the effect, not the 'extras' the power provides), but I would say it either adds bashing or changes the entire attack to Lethal (i.e. a la claws)

DMD gets +2 damage from bodymorph regardless of whether it is lethal or bashing (we have never seen him use Crush but he could have it). Normally he just does bashing damage. Again, there is no of this "effect testing" (which he would fail in any case). The rules say it stacks so that's what it does.

[Bahamut810]

Nope. When I said bypassed that's what I meant. Electricity (as indicated in the core book), just bypasses most forms of armor.

If he were holding a wire and taking the jolt plainly, he would take 2d because the current goes through him.

If it says it bypassed Armor that would be a ST call. If it was a nova power to electrify the weapon (a la Electron from the Nappontai) I would say it goes to armor unless there are exposed wires or some other conductive material. But if it says that it does transfer to him no matter what it hits (even a non-conductive plastic or some such) then it hits him...the knife on the other hand still hits the armor.

If now we are saying that immolate doesn't stack with multiple damage types then I don't see why you could say that it ever stacks.

Because they damage in vastly different ways. Slicing or burning (rending, making big holes what have you) are much different then a direct blow that would cause bruising, crushing and internal damage without making a hole in the outter layer (i.e. skin and clothing).

The question isn't whether he gets damaged by both effects (he does). The question is whether those effects stack.

That would be dependant on if he was in the way of the firestorm.

I.E. The storm is going, he stands 3 feet from his opponent. Likley scenario is that any damage that would stack on the Q-bolt/Immolate would be it because the person (who is immune to his own powers) is blocking whats coming at that side of him. If you stand between the Pitcher and catcher in baseball, chasnes are your going to get hit instead of the catcher...is that clearer to what I meant?

DMD gets +2 damage from bodymorph regardless of whether it is lethal or bashing (we have never seen him use Crush but he could have it). Normally he just does bashing damage. Again, there is no of this "effect testing" (which he would fail in any case). The rules say it stacks so that's what it does.

East 'nuff. He gets +2 damage to his attack. Nothing complicated abotu that.

[Finbar]

[Like I wouldn't participate in this debate at some point ::bigsmile ...]

1) Admittedly, the "also" in the Immolate description can be read either way (implying either a seperate attack or that it stacks). However, "also causes damage" implies that the Immolate is causing damage by itself (ie, not stacking).

It should be noted that this is different from Claws in that Claws modify the source of the damage itself (turning Bashing into Lethal, and adding a bit), rather than adding completely new damage to the mix). Also, Matter Chameleon should not have even entered the conversation, as it emulates powers, and anything that applies to those powers would thus apply to MC

2) Damage: I keep getting a max of 10[30]B, 10[20]L, and 10 A (assuming powers could go up to 10 dots, and as per APG errata). How was the 15 HL computed?

3) The electrified knife is a bad example, as the electricity isn't adding to the knife's damage, but causing its own unsoakable energy (at least, by normal, non-Quantum-powered armor). The heated knife is a bit better, but you're still combining two damages that work differently; I'd probably stack them, after allowing for powers and oither defenses...

FR

[ProfPotts]

In my game, at least, Immolate damage does not stack with character attacks. Glacier just happens to be a well-designed character with a coherant overall theme. ::wink

The text quoted to support the stacking argument seems to be:

... If the nova deliberately tries to touch someone, doing so counts as an attack. However, the nova can use a normal close combat attack (such as a punch) and also cause damage from Immolate without the use of Immolate counting as a seperate action...

[p.204]

That text, however, doesn't in any way say that the Immolate damage is actually added to the punch, just that it gets to 'go off' at the same time. Immolate damage is listed elsewhere (& clarified in the APG, p.204): nowhere does it list Strength as a component of that damage. In fact, the 'also' in that text is highlighted - the damage is also caused by the punch, not added to its own damage.

As an example - why would a character with, say, Immolate [Fire] burn hotter just because he punched you rather than touched you? He wouldn't, naturally - but that's what stacking the punch & Immolate damage would imply. It's important to remember that, in WW games, increased damage effect is not a linear progression (thanks to the way the Soak rules work): punching a tough (Stamina 5) baseline with 10 dice of bashing damage is a lot worse than punching him with 5 dice worth of bashing damage twice.

[knave]

Can't resist. Ha! You lose jokers! ::tongue

and btw - Bahamut - that really explains the goofy grin I always pictured you having! ::tongue ::ninja

[Bahamut810]

That text, however, doesn't in any way say that the Immolate damage is actually added to the punch, just that it gets to 'go off' at the same time. Immolate damage is listed elsewhere (& clarified in the APG, p.204): nowhere does it list Strength as a component of that damage. In fact, the 'also' in that text is highlighted - the damage is also caused by the punch, not added to its own damage.

The thing is...it does it also...as well...

al·so    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ôls)

adv.

In addition; besides.

Likewise; too: If you will stay, I will also. 

Sounds like it does it would stack to me at least.

About it not listing Str as a component, you dont *have* to punch someone to damage with it. It does have its own, contant damage that it does to everyhting touching or touched by you.

As an example - why would a character with, say, Immolate [Fire] burn hotter just because he punched you rather than touched you? He wouldn't, naturally - but that's what stacking the punch & Immolate damage would imply.

The thing is the fire isent getting hotter. Your both punching and burning at the same time (witch I have covered earlier). Thats like saying that claws make you stronger. Its not, its adding and applying damage differently.

It's important to remember that, in WW games, increased damage effect is not a linear progression (thanks to the way the Soak rules work)

I dont see why, considering that soak is progressive.

[Bahamut810]

Can't resist.  Ha! You lose jokers!  ::tongue

and btw - Bahamut - that really explains the goofy grin I always pictured you having!  ::tongue  ::ninja

Uhhh...you do know that Prof (while kool) isent really GOD....right? People can have differing opinions.

And quite frankly I dont have a goofy grin. I cant help that you have no idea how to have a discussion, and use examples. ::tongue ::smokin

[Alex Green]

15L is short for 10[5]L and is the max for a Q5 or less PC.

It seems kind of pointless to use Immolate for a bashing attack.

[knave]

Uhhh...you do know that Prof (while kool) isent really GOD....right? People can have differing opinions.

That's right, aggravate the GM. Planning another visit to Superimpose anytime soon? ::tongue

And quite frankly I dont have a goofy grin. I cant help that you have no idea how to have a discussion, and use examples.

I see no point in arguing the toss (heh) beyond the point at which the opponent is obviously, blatantly and without question wrong and is refusing to admit defeat through sheer and bloody minded realisation at how utterly foolish they will look if they give over. ::blink

[Nullifier]

In terms of nova-level combat, if Immolate doesn't stack it becomes pretty much useless, except as a 'ping' level of bashing, so you might as well take it as a bashing power. Otherwise, all it's good for is killing every baseline you touch and damaging equipment and the environment.

Finbar, if you'll read the text of MC as well as the examples, you'll see that it doesn't just emulate powers, it's quite capable of producing its own damaging effects that aren't emulations of any other powers.

Anyhow, Bahamut is quite right, the Prof is only god in his games. This whole question is really a ST call, if you ask me.

[knave]

This whole question is really a ST call, if you ask me

Everything is a ST call. There is no point in arguing that. There is also no point in arguing how to implement it in your game. This has been an argument about what was intended by the aberrant creators.

[Bahamut810]

I see no point in arguing the toss (heh) beyond the point at which the opponent is obviously, blatantly and without question wrong and is refusing to admit defeat through sheer and bloody minded realisation at how utterly foolish they will look if they give over.

Wait a second...Im not 'obviously, blatantly and without question wrong'. Ill agree that you disagree with me. Ill give you you have a point in that it dosent *expressley* say it does. But I am by no means 'obviously, blatantly and without question wrong'. Quite frankly the wording can go either way in this case. But when the dictionary supports my side, then I tend to put more credability on my side.

If you dont have anything *intelligent* to say, then dont join the discussion. (so you know, insulting someone because someone else made a point is not considered intelligent discussion).

[knave]

If you dont have anything *intelligent* to say, then dont join the discussion. (so you know, insulting someone because someone else made a point is not considered intelligent discussion).

Na-uh.

[Bahamut810]

Everything is a ST call. There is no point in arguing that. There is also no point in arguing how to implement it in your game. This has been an argument about what was intended by the aberrant creators.

Ill agree to that whole-heartedly. They are gods of their own worlds after all ::biggrin

and it is plainly stated in the rules after all (imagine telling people what rules mean, novel). ::wink

Na-uh.

Wow...I think we need a head-bang-on-the-wall smiley...

[knave]

Wow...I think we need a head-bang-on-the-wall smiley...

Yes. We do.

[knave]

In terms of nova-level combat, if Immolate doesn't stack it becomes pretty much useless, except as a 'ping' level of bashing,

This is sadly what happens when people make characters with high numbers as their only objectives.

[Bahamut810]

This is sadly what happens when people make characters with high numbers as their only objectives.

Im sorry you frown on good character design.

[Nullifier]

I'm not really talking about that. It's more of a comment on the obsence amounts of soak you need to survive nova-level combat, due to the ridiculous amounts of damage most novas can dish out. As a point in fact, I'm rather fond of characters that don't have powers that by themselves cause huge amounts of damage. I've found, however, that unless you want to end up all messed up, if not dead, when you're fighting other novas, you really do need a lot of soak, or to be fast and/or skillful enough to dodge every single attack that comes your way.

It's not really just the way people make characters, it's just the system. A large percentage of the powers have extreme offensive capability, and unless you want to limit them in your game, eventually most PCs that end up getting in lots of fights, i.e. most PCs ::wink ,will end up with a high soak or speed or both. Thems just the facts.

[knave]

Im sorry you frown on good character design.

I'm a role player. I don't want to get involved in an arms race. (WTF ARMS!? ::tongue )

[knave]

Thems just the facts.

I'm confused. Novas do 'too much damage' so you think Immolate SHOULD stack?

Or are you saying that some powers do amazing amounts of damage so Immolate should too, or it would be 'too weak'?

Immolate is a maintained area effect Quantum Bolt that has offensive and defensive properties. It seems to me that it has amazingly utility already.

[Nullifier]

I didn't say they did 'too much damage' anywhere in there. Just that they do a lot of damage, and thus tend to have a lot of soak. I'm fine with it if you don't want to let Immolate stack with HTH damage totals in your games. I was just responding to your assertion that the reason most novas have a huge amount of soak is bacause of the way people make their characters. I think that the reason rests more with the general lethality of the system than with the way people create their characters. Anyhow, my point was that given the tendency of novas to have high soak levels, if Immolate doesn't stack, unless it's agg, it really only provides a ping of bashing damage against most novas. Sure, non-combat oriented novas, baselines, equipment, and the environment take a beating, but in nova-level combat it's all but useless.

[Alex Green]

In terms of nova-level combat, if Immolate doesn't stack it becomes pretty much useless, except as a 'ping' level of bashing,

Except for little things like shutting down Totentanz.

The big T kills DMD in two or three rounds just from 'pinging' him.

But if we give DMD Immolate+AGG, then everytime he rolls his ping die, he gets zapped for [1]. That's a trade that ends with him dying.

Of course he still wins after I run out of juice, but it takes much longer this way.