opnet [OpNet] Justification

[Guest]

So glad to see that my return immediately sparked the kind of literary pissing contest I left this place to avoid.

Nimrod --

Don't worry. I'm through with justification. You won't here any more rationalizing of my so-called "sins" from me.

My reasons for debate on my matters were never so much a matter of justification as understanding. It was my hope, as vain as it was, that perhaps in explaining myself, I would chance across brothers- and sisters-in-arms. I believe strongly in banding together with people who share your ideals and vision to achieve your mutual ends. Strengthen others of your kind and they will strengthen you.

But it didn't happen. I've since learned the best way to attract your peers isn't through your words, but your actions. So there will be no further "justification". Polite questions will be answered, but there will be no further "defending" myself. People who would attack me will do so no matter what I say -- I think Ranger is a fine example of this truism.

I'm sorry you don't find me more pleasant. If only it was as easy as 'dead rapists = happy nova'.

Bill --

Thanks.

-- Avenger

[Nimrod]

Ergh. Why does everyone misunderstand me? Is it because I´m one unpleasant son of a bitch?

I really have no quarrel with you and your little killing business, Avenging Lad. Whatever makes you tick. You do what you think is best; we don´t share the same region of interest, so I´ll be damned if I´m going to interfer with you.

Keep up the killing, will you? I´m going to be on lookout for that trademark signature.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Nimrod ]

[Stheno]

Well, Avenger dear, what did you expect ?

You always seemed eager to start such "pissing contests" before.

You should hardly be surprised that an enigmatic "I'm back" would start another one.

I still think you're mistaken in what you do, but I understand a bit better now.

I have one thing to say in that regard, something I avoided saying before. It is the last statement I will ever make regarding your justifications:

A rape victim can recover. A murder victim never will.

I'm not here to argue however. I merely wished to bring that point to your attention. Whether you heed or ignore it is up to you. Whatever your other flaws, you have a moral conscience and take responsibility for your actions.

Welcome back, if back you are.

[Guest]

Fair enough, Stheno. To make it publicly known, I'm trying to avoid pointless debate. I'm not going to bluster and argue anymore. Novas are far too pigheaded a species to change against their will.

That said, a counterpoint to your point. I agree that murder victims will never recover, but I don't think rape victims really do, either. Rape is an act of torture that requires a single application who's effects last a lifetime. By my "religious" beliefs, a person who is killed has moved on to something better, and the pain of their ordeal no longer has bearing on them. The rape victim lives with her pain for life. I consider rape far worse than murder, but perhaps in that I stand alone.

Again, I'm not here to argue, either. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. It isn't my job or ambition to convince you of my point of view.

-- Avenger

[Dr cornelius]

if a rape victim wanted to get over the ordeal of the rape, they can do so with the use of aplied telepathy, it can be made to be as a bad dream, so therefore is inconsequentual and has no more effect on their future.

Or they can have the memories wiped clean from there mind with all the associated memmories as well, and have created memorires take the place of the erased one's.

both these methods are avaliable from any properly trained teep.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr cornelius:
if a rape victim wanted to get over the ordeal of the rape, they can do so with the use of aplied telepathy, it can be made to be as a bad dream, so therefore is inconsequentual and has no more effect on their future.

Or they can have the memories wiped clean from there mind with all the associated memmories as well, and have created memorires take the place of the erased one's.

both these methods are avaliable from any properly trained teep.

How convenient, Cornelius. Why don't we apply that theory and practice to any situation that is harrowing. From now on all life is flawless. If not, we'll erase the flaws and put pretty fabrications in their place.

Deleting memory like that is a dangerous thing. I speak from experience. Especially when the truth is brought to light. Realizing your pretty fantasy is only covering up something ugly is more traumatizing than having undergone the ugliness in the first place.

Better to live, and evolve.

[Stheno]

Well said Avenger.

I'll agree to disagree if you do.

As to being pig-headed...well, that's true of more than just novas. Pigs, for one. Humans for another...

As to the good Doctor's point...the erasure of painful memories does not solve the problem. It merely puts it somewhere else.

[Elizabeth Rayne]

It is true that a lot of victims of rape never fully recover. This is partly to do with the horrendous nature of the crime. Partly. Mostly it's society's fault. Until recently it was believed that a rape victim must have been asking for it. Men were punished but the woman's reputation was in ruins. While virtually no one says it anymore it still whispers inside most people's heads. Including the victim.

Most rape victims keep their anonymity because they are afraid of being blamed for what happened to them and because they feel guilty!

This is just plain wrong! We live in a society that still manages to leave it's daughters with a feeling of "I must have lead him on."

What's more even if you don't feel like that people think there's something wrong with you, that you are repressing or even that you must be lying because everyone knows rape victims get guilty and traumatised.

Well here's news, while most of us do get traumatized to some degree but not all of us are victims of a social subconscious that blames us for being victims. And it's easier to recover if you don't blame yourself.

Beth

[Guest]

On this, we are in agreement, Elizabeth. Society plays an inconceivably large part in the creation of rape and the stigma associated with being victimized. We must evolve.

But I'll go you one better. I've been in enough rapists' heads to know what served as a heavy catalyst for the act, and public enemy number one isn't fear of rejection, it isn't repression, it isn't a deranged society that values the superficial image above all else; It's god.

Eliminate religion -- as it is currently recognized -- and I think rape and other violent crime would drop significantly. Most of the recognized symptoms of sexual aggression are the results of culturally-established mores and restraints that are issued by...whom?

Any answer other than "God" will get you docked five points in this class.

-- Avenger

[Argent_]

(Sigh.)

Really, Avenger; do you really view the world in such simplistic terms? It feels, to me, much like the argument that if you could go back in time and assassinate Hitler when he was a child, you´d prevent the Holocaust from happening.

Religion is a patchwork on which humanity might project its hopes and fears; sometimes this is for good, sometimes it turns out bad; much like everything else when it comes to human beings.

These actions and consequences are, however, a result of human nature and not inherent to religion, or God; it is simply the outlet for those wishes and urges.

To some people, God is benevolent; represented in His/Her/Its´ (I´ll simplify, but you get the general idea) physical form by Jesus Christ the Messiah, he is a benevolent and loving creator, ever ready to embrace his creations in his arms. If you try to be a good person, to the extent of your capabilities, you do well.

For some other people, it is a step back to the Old Testament patriarch; the punishing, devouring patriarch ever ready to strike down those who oppose him and condemn their souls to Hell. This is, of course, an unfortunate throwback and completely in opposition with the teachings of Christ (as they are written in the New Testament)... but it is ideas and tendencies that come from these people, and ideas seek form. For them, it just so happened to be religion and "the word of God" simply because the matter was close at hand.

If they can pervert teachings such as "love thy neighbour", "turn the other cheek" and "let him without sin cast the first stone", anything can and will do.

Who is the enemy? Not God; that is a simplification that is borderline dangerous in its´ simplemindedness.

I blame fear, and the intolerance that it brings. I blame the hate that is born out of this fear, which is an abscence of love.

Sound strange to you? It is really very simple. I am not a Christian, or really a devout anything - too much is happening for me to confess to any single ideology but hope. The times might be dark, and taxing on us all... but I´ll be damned if I give up now. I´ll be damned if I´ll go for the easy solutions.

Argent, out.

[Elizabeth Rayne]

Quote:

Originally posted by <Avenger>:
On this, we are in agreement, Elizabeth. Society plays an inconceivably large part in the creation of rape and the stigma associated with being victimized. We must evolve.

Society didn't create rape. It just stigmatized it. Rape predates society, it even predates humanity. Contrary to popular opinion rape does happen among animals it's just that animal minds don't make such a big fuss about it.

Eliminate religion -- as it is currently recognized -- and I think rape and other violent crime would drop significantly. Most of the recognized symptoms of sexual aggression are the results of culturally-established mores and restraints that are issued by...whom?

Any answer other than "God" will get you docked five points in this class.

A law exists only for law breakers not law keepers. Think about it.


Beth

[Guest]

Already with the belittling of my point of view with such callow definitions, Argent? Shame. I thought it beneath you.

I'm afraid, my friend, if I may turn an old wheel, that you "can't see the forest for the trees" pertaining my stance in this matter. Human (and nova) nature is infinitely more complex than can be summed up in a few or even many paragraphs, and the human race's complex relationship with the divine along with it.

I am cognizant of your point of view and in many ways agree. Naturally, I can't share your point of view in all things, but that is fine. Calling me simple and insulting me won't convince me of the validity of your arguements, however -- it just makes me want to express my disappointment in other ways, like gutting you.

I digress. In the way of offering solutions short of changing the very nature of human itself, I suggested the abolishment of organized religion for it's part it plays in sexual repression and the homogeonization of thought. Though by no means a cure-all or even a quick fix, erasing the patriarchal father figure who makes us feel "sinful" for wanting to fulfill our biological purpose and leading humanity to believe that the procreative act is disgusting and therefor attaching a stigma to it would be a reasonable panacea, if feasibly implemented.

Moving on, as you pointed out, Elizabeth, society did not create rape.

I disagree.

Rape does not predate society, nor is rape a commong practice, even among animals. This is because there is a distinct difference between forced intercourse between animals in heat who are biologically programmed to force the mating act on their partners and thereby ensuring the continuance of the species and the complex power struggle involved with dominating a fellow human being for the purpose of degradation (sometimes mutual) and to experience authority in a world where you have none.

With the exception of the insane, the overwhelming majority of rape cases are power struggles between the powerless (or those who feel they are) and the object of their hatred and dominance (often women, and sometimes even children). This Alpha Wolf/Omega Wolf mentality may be genetically programmed into us, but the feeling of emotional powerlessness and the overwhelming sense of personal loss and hatred that builds to such an extent that you would harm another human being in the most vile of ways to frantically regain a portion of what you have lost is all the creation of a hierarchial social structure run amok.

Just something to chew on, Liz.

-- Avenger

[Argent_]

Avenger: I did not willfully insult you (even though you seem less than reluctant to return the percieved insult), nor did I accuse you of being simple (you are a complex personality, to be sure); I did, however, point out that your argument was a rather simplistic one, and this is a viewpoint that I will stick to.

You are, much as I think that you often are prone to do, attacking the symptoms rather than the disease. This is to be expected; we have still to identify the roots of the societal virus.

Please, try to keep the "gutting" comments out of this discussion. It does nothing but derail from the points that you do have, and puts you in the same box as people like Nimrod. You can do better than that.

[Nimrod]

Nope, Argent, you just pissed him off with that "holier than thou" bullshit.

Actually, much as it hurts to admit it, Boy Wonder has a point; people need things to fear, look up and wank off to - religion just seem to fit better for many people. Me, I say it´s due to that whole PR trip.

Nowadays, some poor, deluded fucks have decided to view us as incarnate gods; I´ll leave the scene to Scarylady Ashnod for that debate. I just know that, based on a general assumption that a god is someone who has unlimited power to do unto you whatever he damn well pleases without any fear of retriibution, many of us fits the description nicely.

We´re not here to be a fucking example to anyone, Argent. We´re not here to show people what they can aspire to. We´re just here to show the fuckers what happens if they ever step out of line.

Let them have their gods and monsters; it´s easier to put the Fear into people who are used to feeling guilty and scared.

And lay off my back, you little piece of shit. Avenger might be all talk on the subject but I will gut you if you start acting tough. This time, I´ll feed you your fucking spine.

[Elizabeth Rayne]

Originally posted by <Avenger>:

[QB]I digress. In the way of offering solutions short of changing the very nature of human itself, I suggested the abolishment of organized religion for it's part it plays in sexual repression and the homogeonization of thought. Though by no means a cure-all or even a quick fix, erasing the patriarchal father figure who makes us feel "sinful" for wanting to fulfill our biological purpose and leading humanity to believe that the procreative act is disgusting and therefor attaching a stigma to it would be a reasonable panacea, if feasibly implemented.

God told people to go forth and multiply. It's the personality disjunction that every single person suffers from that causes the guilt. That's why in the Judeo-Christian Allegory Adam and Eve didn't feel guilty about their nakedness until they ate the fruit.

Moving on, as you pointed out, Elizabeth, society did not create rape.

I disagree.

I thought you would.

With the exception of the insane, the overwhelming majority of rape cases are power struggles between the powerless (or those who feel they are) and the object of their hatred and dominance (often women, and sometimes even children). This Alpha Wolf/Omega Wolf mentality may be genetically programmed into us, but the feeling of emotional powerlessness and the overwhelming sense of personal loss and hatred that builds to such an extent that you would harm another human being in the most vile of ways to frantically regain a portion of what you have lost is all the creation of a hierarchial social structure run amok.

That's not a bad arguement. I suppose rape is more than forced intercourse. However I do believe that rape wouldn't be illegal if it never happened. It would be like a truely peaceful soceity banning war. How would they know what to ban.

Beth