opnet [OpNet] A question to the Terats here.

[Hugin]

Avenger recently reiterated a point many Terats make. In a nutshell, he stated that being a Nova baseline laws cannot apply to him because they were formulated by beings who cannot comprehend him.

My associate with the Teragen is fairly firm. I have studied the Null Manifesto and believe I have garnered important bits of wisdom within it. My own personal belief system makes me a seperatist in regards to the concept of Nova/baseline relations. However until that is achieved we are going to have to interact due to our sharing the same space.

That being the case, I have to ask the Terats out there; do baselines have the right to protect themselves against Novas? Avenger, you hold baseline laws in disdain. Does this mean you feel you can ignore their prohibitions against murder? Theft? Rape? Now, please don't go to the example of the late mayor of Tampa. He was trying to enact legislation that would not protect baselines, but would affect the rights of Novas.

Now, I've posted the below earlier and it was not addressed (as there was another, more engrossing topic being discussed). But I am curious as to how the Terats here would answer it.

Is the killing of a Nova acceptable under the following circumstances?

1. A baseling trying to protect his/her property?

2. A baseline trying to protect his/her family?

3. A baseline trying to protect his/her life?

4. A baseline trying to protect the integrity of his/her mind/personality?

5. A baseline trying to protect another baseline's property, life, and/or the integrity of their mind/personality?

6. A baseline trying to avenge the loss of another baseline's property, life, and/or the intergrity of their mind/personality?

It has been postulated that Novas have no need to follow baseline law, if this is truly the case, do we then have the right to treat them like animals? Do they have the right to defend themselves?

[Apep]

I supose most animals will try and defend their territory, their family, and of coarse their life. It would be silly for us to expect anything but that. I'd think it rather pathetic for any creature not to at least try, But killing us? NO. Not under any circumstance. For integrity? No. For vengeance, definately not.

Sure, treat them like animals, what else are they? But even animals deserve some amount of respect. And just like animals, they have the right to defend themselves, well to a certain degree anyways. But even baselines put out bounty's on the pelts of certain animals for those very reasons.

An animal killing a baseline is not tollerated by them. A nova killed by a baseline should not be tolerated by us.

[Guest]

Well James, I can't claim to be a full fleged member of the big T, but my inclinations do lean toward your little rebellion (I have been called poser far too often for my liking though). Your questions bring up some very difficult choices though don't they?

Do baselines have the right to kill novas in defence of themselves or those and that which they hold dear? My first reaction is sure, why not! How is it different from two Baselines in the same situation? Or two Novas?

Let me elaborate on your questions.

1. A Nova (for whatever reason) decides to destroy a baseline's home. Said baseline needs that home for his survival, thus defends it and in the process kills the Nova. By baseline law, this would be a form of self defense. How should Novas respond to it? Well, I say the Nova deserved it in my personal opinion but for the most part if a big nasty nova demands the TV remote, Give him the damn remote! It ain't worth dying for.

2. Anyone has the right to defend their family. Being a father, I know that I would do anything, fight anyone, to save my son from harm. I wouldn't expect any less from any other parent.

3. The right to life is the most basic right of all. If a Baseline kills a Nova in his own defense, then I'd say the Baseline has earned the right to life.

4. Same as above on this one. Being a psychic of sorts, I can fully understand the desire for mental privacy and integrity.

5 and 6. Most of the above should apply to the protection of others or the avenging of others.

The thing I find most forgotten by the Teregen is the concept of responsibility of self and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So we are a separate species, we are The One Race. Does that negate the right Baselines have to their own lives and society?

[Ashnod]

James,

I wrote about a two page response to you on this, but then decided against posting it. Essentially, my argument, when stripped down, can be summed up much more concisely in these terms:

Right implies morality. Morality implies responsibility. Moral responsibility implies moral reprecussion. Moral reprecussion implies divine retribution. Divine retribution implies that a being greater than a Nova will punish your "soul" for moral transgressions.

Rights, you see, are social constructs. Baselines created most laws, orders, heirarchies, with the implication that either some divine creator endowed them with equality, or that there would be some (apologies for misusing the word, Wizard) karmic retribution for transgressions against the moral order. Without divine retribution or karmic balance, right and wrong are meaningless.

Does a baseline have any of the rights you describe? Only if their creator/creators have bestowed it to them and intended it to be that way. Otherwise, it's just a matter of sentient animals trying to push meaning into a purposeless existence. Baselines will tell us that yes, there is a God, and yes, he made Novas just as he made baselines. (speak up now, Father Ryan, that's your cue)

Whether or not you choose to believe any of that, as a Nova, is up to you.

[Alex McKenzie]

Actually, I have an additional category - Is the killing of a nova acceptable by a baseline protecting a nova's property, life, and/or the integrity of their mind/personality?

This I ask, because part of my job description as Sid's PA is to protect him, as best I can, from any threats to his body. As a mass of photons, it's highly difficult for anyone to hurt or injure him (and if someone could, I wouldn't stand a chance against such a person!), but that is part of my description nonetheless. Anyone?

[Hugin]

Ashnod-Ooh, aren't you the slipperly one. However I am going to have to call you on this. You have made two statements, neither of which agrees with the other.

Either rights are social constructs, ie. artificial concepts created by the culture in question by general agreement, or they are created by a maker of the members of that culture, in which case the right in question has a seperate existence apart from the desires of the members of that culture. They cannot be both.

Now, if you are stating a support for the belief that Novas should adopt an anarchist state, one in which no laws are adhered to, regardless of them being baseline or nova in nature, that is another situation quite in itself. Is that what you are doing?

What I am asking is this; other places in this forum it has been stated that a baseline killing a Nova is wrong. I am asking if you believe that this is the case regardless of the circumstances of the act. Do you believe, as Apep has stated, that baselines are to us as beasts are to baselines and we have no need to accept them defending themselves in such a manner? Or, do you believe that a baseline defending his life, liberty, possessions and or loved ones must be allowed to use all of the power at his disposal?

[Argent_]

Damn, even the fact that we actually need to ask these questions makes me sick to my stomach.

Really, people; for individuals who (at least in part) exceed the human scale for measurable intelligence (even if the IQ system is apparently flawed even to a baseline with a semblance of wit), it would be apparent that we´re a sub-species at best.

I´ve listened to all of your points and arguments, and what I hear is still no different from the feces that i was fed by those pathetic, self-serving LaVey satanists during my baseline lifetime. What you are saying is, basically, that might makes right.

No matter how much you think that you´ve ´ascended´ the baseline moralities, you are no better than any other of the scum who´ve tried to enforce this philosophy in the past.

Is it the Taint speaking? I would think not; people - whether they can manipulate Quantum power or not - have always had an affinity for deciding that they´re of the ´one true race´or ´the chosen people´, and thus above any law but for those they make for themselves.

Rather, I think of you as sad cases of people on a serious power trip. Suddenly deciding that you´re not only better than next to everyone else, but also no longer human... that is a decision all too easy to make at that early stage, I would guess, if you didn´t have the support nor the security in sense of self to get a grip. But to hold on to these ideas, and to actively enforcing them through what is basically a sect with an anarchical structure... that is nothing short of despicable, and I will fight you any turn that I get.

As soon as you start deciding that your ´supreme heritage´, or whatever clichéd term serves you best, allows you to ignore the basic human rights of baseline people... well, I´ll be there. And I won´t be alone. This is not to be taken as a threat; it is, quite simply, a fact.

How many of us will have to die before you will re-evaluate your set course of action? How long will this Nova infighting continue before baseline humanity takes some serious action? You aren´t all so drunken with your power that you think of baseline humanity as unable to pose a threat, do you? If you do, your ´supreme intelligence´ is... well, lacking.

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"It always begins in the same way: The first pawn moves. The first shot is fired (usually at the first pawn)."

[Ashnod]

Argent,

Being better and being different or outside something is too entirely different concepts. I don't consider myself "better," but I do consider myself different. When you show me a baseline that can do even 1/2 of the things I am capable without the use of technology, I'll concede your point that we are subspecies of homo sapiens sapiens. Saying that the Teragen are no better than any other "supremist" group also demonstrates on your part, if not a closed mind, than one refusing to even consider the possibility that it may be true. Having one baseline tell another, "I am different and outside your scope," is one thing, when fundamentally, the degrees of difference are practically negligable between them. Me, who can spontaneously change the elemental structure of diamond into talc with no more consideration than a baseline would cough alters the validity of that statement immensely. If you are not capable of making that leap of rationale, or even realizing that it might be marginally correct, then I pity you.

Prodigy,

Actually, my points don't contradict each other. I said essentially that rights are created with the belief that some higher power bestowed them upon the species innately, but if that higher power doesn't exist, then they are merely social constructs created by a species trying to apply meaning to purposeless existence. Since the existence of said higher power cannot be conveniently proven until after death, then it is safe to assume, until that time, that these rights are only social constructs. Whether or not the Almighty is looking upon the Teragen now, shaking his cosmic finger at us in silent reprimand, we can't know. Whether or not you as a Nova choose to believe this higher power watches your every move and will judge you one day is up to you.

In response to your question about baselines being allowed to defend themselves, I ask you, allowed by whom? If you believe the Zurich Accord, the answer is no. Laws that protect baselines also protect Novas. If you believe the Null Manifesto, the answer becomes yes. After all, it's one species trying to defend themselves against another species, and until mutual agreements between the species can be made to create social contracts on how the two will interact as a whole, the only other choice for that baseline is to sit and wait. A sentient being cannot do this. Regardless of whether they have the "right" to do this, Prodigy, it will happen.

The problem is, James, there are no laws, rights, norms, or structure for how baselines and Novas interact yet. Anything in place assumes that baselines and Novas are identical. If you are asking me, if these guidelines were ever established should baselines have the right to defend themselves against Nova attacks, my answer is yes. I've stated repeatedly that baselines have the right (right meaning in this case, the idea that a sentient being, aware of its own existence, should be allowed to direct the path of that existence. A social construct that we, as Novas, agree with thus far.) of self-determination, as we do, and just as we are struggling to liberate ourselves from their yokes, they will do the same to prevent themselves from being yoked. We can't fault them for this if we are seeking liberation from them.

So much of this is up in the air, though. I'm not a legislator, and even if I was we've a long way to go towards simply freeing the consciousness of our species before these social constructs can be established. Right now, Argent is stating that any attempt by our movement to enforce our belief of separation will be met with hostile force. Most of us are like him, unwilling or too scared to take that leap. It's not an easy thing to do. Argent's belief, apparently, is even stronger though. We might say in his estimation, not only are we NOT different from the herd, but any attempts for us to separate from the herd will prevented by the herd. We aren't different, we should accept it, and those that question this should be silenced and those that actually dare to practice should be put down.

[Guest]

My only real problem with your statements Ashnod, is this. In the rush for self-determination and to exercise their agreement and acceptance of Divis' vision, many of the more agressive members of the Teregen trample all over those rights in others that they themselves want. This is a problem, and it's why the Teregen seems hypocritical in the eyes of non-members. This problem is only made worse by the visible spokespeople, like Raoul, claiming they answer for those actions because said individual who did the deed is responsible only to himself.

While in the strictest interpretation of the Manifesto that is true, some reading between the lines is nessissary. I am accountable for my actions, I am also accountable to those people who are affected by my actions. If I kill a man, that man's family has the right to at least ask why, if not seek retribution. Going further I am accountable for you actions if I could affect the outcome in some way. If you kill a man and I could have stoped you but didn't, then I am also responsible for that man's death.

The Teregen claims that each individual can only be judged by themselves and themselves alone and I agree with this to some degree. No one can tell me the proper way to use my powers simply because no one understands my powers the way I do. My question is why then are the Teregen not teaching responsibility of power as part of that doctrine?

[Argent_]

Nice one, Ashnoud. Your experience as an agitator is apparent. I will not speculate in whether you deliberately chose to misinterpret some of the things that I stated, or if it was merely a matter of convenience, debate-wise.

(This seems to be a standing point for those Terats that i try to engage in conversation on this board; Avenger accused me of dismissing you all as building-tossing ´supervillain´ sociopaths, and didn´t reply to my counterpoint. I can only hope that this matter will be dealt with more carefully. At least promise me to read what I write, and not to just skim through it, if you feel the need to reply.)

We might as well start with these misconceptions, before we move on:

* I do not assume that there are no differences between Novas and baseline humans; philosophically speaking, we might have a debate. Genetically, we´re a subspecies, or maybe a chaotic mutation - I have yet to see two Novas that express the exact same Quantum ´augmentations´, or to view them in the same way.

* You also chose to misinterpret quite an important remark of mine; you chose to believe that i would confront Teragen members with physical force as soon as they tried to ´enforce your belief in separation´. This is a vague phrase of words if ever I read one. In the case that the enforcment in question require you to use violence against baseline human or Nova alike, contradictory to the basic human rights as defined by the UN and the Geneva convention, the answer is yes - I will try to stop you, and so will my allies. I would prefer this to be done in a non-violent way, but if any one of you choose to start the bloodshed, they have crossed the line.

Any sentient being has the right to defend him/herself and his/her loved ones. I´ve recently worked as underground support for recently Erupted Novas on the run from persecution, be it from organizations such as the Church of Michael Archangel or legal bodies such as the U.S. Government. I´ve also fought against Novas intent on performing various acts of terrorism that would endanger baseline lives - I make no difference in these cases (except that when fighting Novas i cannot afford to be as careful as with baselines - I´m not really one of the most powerful ones, physically speaking).

Does this make me an oppressor? Does this make me unworthy of my Nova heritage (as some of you´ve stated in the near past)?

To paraphrase a great thinker: "I despise your beliefs, but I´ll fight to the death to defend your right to state them."

You can defend your case all that you want. You can fight this war of sorts without any blood spilled at all - you can do it by the book. You have the collective might of a political superpower; make something of it. With all of your intelligence, and all of your charisma, you should be able to pull this off. Some of you have a presence that makes people adore you on sight, or even when transmitted on camera. Others can craft speeches that could sway nations.

USE THESE TALENTS!

Or would you soil your divine hands by winning this fight fair and square? Does it really have to come to war, to bloodshed?

If you´re really something new and better, can´t you figure out something better to do to enforce your beliefs than what normal humans have done for thousands of years?

If you´re unable to think outside that little box, unable to make one god damn compromise, then _I_ pity _you_, Ashnoud. Somehow, I don´t think that all of you can be so narrow-minded.

If you choose this way, then I won´t stand against you. It is when someone makes his choice to abuse his power against someone who is unable to defend herself that I will take action. This goes for anyone, whether they can leap a building in a single bond or not.

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"It always begins in the same way: The first pawn moves. The first shot is fired (usually at the first pawn)."

[Hugin]

Ashnod-Thank you very much. Though we muddled through a semantic field of landmines there I believe you gave me exactly what I was looking for. You and I agree on many issues, however we come at it from different angles and often seem to be at odds. In the future I will try to use language that I feel will be more in tune with your world view. I absolutely adore reading your submissions, it heartens me that not all Terats are rude, vulgar, thugs who rant and rave for the OPNet cameras. Thank you for bringing a touch of class to our midst.

Now, a couple of individuals who have posted are most definatly not Terats. I was specifically asking the Terats in the forum this question because honestly, I already knew your answers. However, please don't feel excluded. Perhaps through discussion we can do our best to bring you around to a more correct viewpoint.

[Apep]

So what about you Prodigy, are you gonna answer your own questions, or are you just gonna oogle at moms lovely words?

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Apep:
So what about you Prodigy, are you gonna answer your own questions, or are you just gonna oogle at moms lovely words?

For the most part I agree with your mother. I am a seperatist, I believe that a baseline will and should be able to defend his or herself against attack by a Nova. Of course, not that I would ever be a threat to a baseline, this is just debate, that is all.

I was just curious as to your views. Yours specifically are interesting. I was quite suprised at the cold blooded nature, though, perhaps I shouldn't have been.

Thank you all for obliging me. Of course, if anyone out there has not had the chance to pipe in (Avenger perhaps?), please feel welcome to enlighten me.

Oh, and Hazzard, don't bother. I suspect I can guess yours. Something involving gasoline, pits, and bulldozers?

[Ashnod]

Argent,

If baseline legislature refused to acknowledge the independence of Nova kind from baseline authority, would violence then be out of the question? Forgive me for being honest here, but it seems rather absurd for a dragon to patiently and non-violently resist the rule of a million geckos simply because the geckos feel the dragon should consider the feelings of the geckos before acting, since, after all, aren't they all lizards and therefore equal, even though one of them flies, has talons and claws, breathes fire, but the millions of others do not?

I'm all for a non-violent solution here. Like you have stated of me: don't miscontrue my intentions. I apologize to you for implying you were ready to wage war. Please don't assume I am seething at the mouth waiting for that opportunity, because I'm not.

I wish all my old OppViews postings were archived....I hate reciting this argument over and over for our new members.

[Avenger]

Since you asked, I will oblige.

I am absolutely certain -- and have held true since before I knew -- that novas are not supposed to govern themselves. Divis Mal doesn't advocate this. Neither does Raoul, and neither do I. What we (and I shall use the term "we" to describe the rather amorphous group of Terats who share philosophies on this matter, but know that one of them was our founder and the other, issuee of the Manifesto) feel is that novas can only be legislated by their peers, or in simpler terms, other novas. This is not a call for anarchy. It is a call for nova solidarity. Until such a time that such a governing body comes to pass, we encourage each individual nova to explore what it is to be as such. Sometimes this means killing people. Sometimes it means even worse things.

Do I advocate the behavior of novas who, say, rape and then hide behind the Null Manifesto's proclamation as justification for what they've done? Absolutely not. But by that same token, I don't justify the behavior of anyone who does things they know are wrong and use the "I was too Terat to know better" excuse. The Null Manifesto, like the anarchists of old, called for novas to exercise Personal Freedom alongside Personal Responsibility. Even novas tend to forget that second part, and I consdier this a horrible, pointless waste. Personal Responsibility does not mean hurting people to make you feel good about yourself. It means owning up to what you do. You might feel that Geryon was out of line doing what he did. Whether or not you feel he was wrong or right, he will be the first to step forward and tell you "I did what I did because I thought it was necessary and because I knew inside myself it was the right thing to do." I respect that about him. He is a murderer. He is also accountable for what he does.

As a baseline youth, I strongly advocated anarchy. I met with the same derision then that I do as a Terat now. People think that because we are "free" to do whatever we want, this means that naturally, we will butcher people wholesale and destroy for the fun of it. This may be the way some people in our organization do it. But they won't last long. They'll have to own up for their actions eventually. This may not be good enough for the husband of a murdered wife, or the son of a murdered father. For that, I am sorry. I hope that the nova who did it had a good reason. If he didn't, you'll just have to "put your faith in the system", as Americans are so fond of saying. Being angered over the death of a loved one at nova hands is no different than being angered at the court system for not presecuting a baseline murderer. You can't go out and get justice for yourself (something I consider very lopsided and wrong with baseline society), so you must trust those in power to do what's best. Much the same is happening here. You will have to trust us to deal with our own. There will be a reckoning, I assure you.

Getting to this, I'll answer your questions now, which I hope will provide some elaboration on these points:

The short answer to all of your questions is "yes". I belive in justice. I believe in revenge. And I believe in protecting what is yours. Say, for example, Geryon, an ally of mine and someone I respect immensely, decided to kill off the head a a certain vehement anti-nova religious cult. And let's say, for example, that while in the process of this mission, he was killed. It won't happen, but let's just say that the baseline mob managed to kill Geryon. I would feel bad. Naturally, I would try to avenge his murder. If I then hastily rushed in to claim vengeance and was killed myself, it would be a most unfortunate turn of events. But both Geryon and myself would have got what we had coming, because we were sloppy careless.

Second scenario; Epoch is hired to kill a baseline politician. I've got no feelings for Epoch one way or the other, but killing a fairly innocent man for money alone is certainly within him. So while attempting to kill this man, he is shot down and killed by the mans highly-trained bodyguards. Again, it will never happen like this, but just as an example. Would I then run out to avenge the death of Epoch? NO! Not because we're not allies -- shit, we could be brotehrs -- but he was doing something bad for a bad reason and died for it. Who's fault is that? Should I blame the politician or his bodyguards? Of course not! They were trying to survive! How can one ask anything less of any living creature?

When I was a baseline, I would laugh at the stupid human on safari who gets his ass chewed up by the lion he was stalking as "prey". As a nova, I laugh at the stupid nova who gets killed because he was sloppy, careless and underestimated his baseline "prey". An animal will kill a human to survive. A baseline will kill a nova to survive. Shit, I'd kill a legion of little girl novas if they were out to kill me. It's survival, baby. If you get killed trying to kill a baseline, you probably had it coming. The reason you were doing it is what matters to us. Your purpose determines whether vengeance need be sought. But to answer your question, it is ALWAYS alright to kill another person in self-defence, on one condition;

There is no other choice.

If the only way you can stop a nova from killing you, taking over your mind, raping you or stealing your gear is to use lethal force, I say go for it. And good fortune to you.

I hope this could clear some of this up. I personally follow a code of what I perceive as "right" and "wrong" and I do the right thing. But what's "right" isn't always what is "good". Perhaps I'll explain how another time.

--Avenger

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"Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired."

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Jager]

Sorry Prodigy. I know that I haven't been a Terat for some time, but I felt an overwhelming desire to say something.

What about the nova who feels it is wrong for anyone to kill another sentiant being? What about the nova that feels that his/her only recourse is to kill the novas who kills others? That nova is acting out on his/her principles. Does that make them right in their actions?

It is reasonable to assume that outside of Bahrain, there is no holding facility for dangerous novas. It isn't a matter of just beating up the offending nova and handing them over to the authorities. They couldn't catch the perpetrator in the first place, much less hold onto them.

What I am asking is this: How do we, as novas, reconsile our differing viewpoints on these issues? After all, some novas feel that baselines have few, if any, rights while some others feel that baselines should be respected within their own laws and customs.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
What I am asking is this: How do we, as novas, reconsile our differing viewpoints on these issues? After all, some novas feel that baselines have few, if any, rights while some others feel that baselines should be respected within their own laws and customs.

Through patience, education, and example, Jager. Many of the great changes of thought have happened by this method. It's a long, tiring process, but you can't force the truth onto others. They have to come to realize it themselves.

[Guest]

I read this topic and I ask myself if I, as an only recently associated Terat, know the answers to the questions brought up here. I do not. I also have a strong feeling that none of those answering here, knowlegable and more experienced in the Teragen paradigm than I am, have the absolute answer, an answer that works for every instance, for every Nova in existence and for every Nova that has yet to be born. If someone had all those answers, we would have the Nova Society we are trying to develop.

Had the baselines enough patience to leave us be, instead of continually convincing puppet Novas to make statements contrary to our destiny as a sovereignty separate from baseline laws and moralities, we could get past the fighting, ignore the zips and spend the next millennium perfecting our own society.

However, I do put it to you that the questions originally asked are in some cases very unfair.. For example:

1. A baseline trying to protect his/her property: If the answer to this was Yes, then the converse would be true, and a Nova could conceivably lay claim to an area and decimate anyone trying to take it from them. Remember Waco?

2. A baseline trying to protect his/her family: Trace back far enough and we are all family. Would it be acceptable if a Nova with the power to determine the exact familial relationship between himself an another killed baselines who threatened people he 'knew were family'?

4. A baseline trying to protect the integrity of his/her mind/personality: Said Baseline has NO way of positively determining a threat of this kind. Any action he would make would be one of paranoia.

5 & 6, If these were acceptable, so would Nova's acting in the same manner. "Oh, no, The IRS is going to take my House!" "No they aren't." *Kaboom*

But the most glaring problem in the initial questions is: Acceptable By Whom?

Houston, Texas found the actions of a few Michaelites quite acceptable, unless you truly believe that absolutely no one saw anything that night the Tornado was murdered?

The United States Government sends FBI, CIA, DEA, and IRS agents to millions of places for arrests and seizure of properties. What to you think their response would be to one of those people killing them whether they were baseline or Nova, in defense of their property?

To sum up: The questions were rigged, there are no absolute answers to them yet, baselines should be patient, shut up, and keep out of our way until the One Race has enough of a society created to prohibit culling the Monkey herd.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Now a new Rome can be built that quickly, with Nova Power, but it will still take decades to build a society IN that new Rome.

[Jager]

Hi Freezerburn,

I believe you have beaten around another issue bothering some novas. What do you do when you show up at the party, but all the seats are taken?

Yes, the United States Federal Government sents its duelly authorized agents out to enact it's will. Theoretically, the rules they enforce cover both baselines and novas. As far as I am aware of (outside some Directive operations), the Fed does not go out of its way to persecute or harrass novas. Baselines must obey the laws and pay taxes and the Fed believes that novas should too. Likewise, baselines can't legally secede from the union, so they hold novas to the same standards.

Before you bring up the point that no baseline has the raw power of some novas, let me point out that invoking the Rule of Might isn't the pleasant thing that some novas think it is. If nothing else, baselines are more than willing to hire novas to do their killing for them and there are plenty of novas who will take the work.

As Ashnod (our resident Terat spokesperson) said, making the adjustment to a novas society is going to take time and patience, and is likely to be very painful to alot of us.

FYI, I was once a Terat, but not any more. Now, I'm just a Independent.

[Avenger]

Ashnod our resident Terat spokesperson? Thanks for the mention, man. Knew I should have capped you when I had the chance.

Only joking, blondie. Just playing.

Getting to your point, though, as an ex-citizen of the US of A, I think it's unfair and against human rights to disallow secession from the Union by novas or baselines. Most novas have the power to back up their secession. This is not necessarily the Rule of Might; it could simply be supernatural avoidance. It is a shame that baselines don't have that option. But should you live your life in a wheelchair because you feel bad for cripples?

--Avenger

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"Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired."

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Jager]

Avenger,

You wish you were that fast.

Seriously, the problem with secession is scope. Sure, you can renounce your citizenship and leave the country. You can take your personal, MOBILE, property with you. Yes, you can sail out of a port on your ship/boat/whatever and be your own nation in international waters. Other nations can then decide whether to let you into their countries.

The problem lies where folks decide to take a piece of land under their sole personal jurisdiction. Once you open that Pandora's Box, things start falling apart. Okay, you say, what's the harm in taking a few thousand acres of Montana prarie as your kingdome? Nothing really, if no one else lives on it. What about a few choice acres in mid-state New York? Now, since I am a sovereign nation, I decide to build a huge hydro-electric dam in my kingdom, damming the Hudson River. It's my own kingdom, after all. The dam breaks (whoops) and a wall of water forty feet high comes down into Manhattan, scrubbing in clean down to the bedrock and killing fourteen million plus souls. I guess it would suck to be in Manhattan then, wouldn't it?

Far fetched? Yes, but the laws of national sovereignty don't bend so much as they break. Once things start falling apart and you let someone declare their part of Idaho to be their own country, the same thing can happen in New York as well.

As for that crippled comment; Is it okay to con some elderly couple out of their life savings because your more clever than they are? Take food from a starving child because they are small? Raping someone because you are stronger? Why not?

In my opinion, we "live our lives in wheelchairs" for now, because we are as similar to humanity in a thousand more ways than we are different. They are our parents, cousins, brothers, sisters, and the like. As we develop and have more generations, we may change, but then, we may not.

[Hugin]

Freezerburn-Fixed questions? You accuse me of trying something underhanded? I am hurt. Not quite my friend. You are correct, the questions were specifically worded so as to encourage a variety of answeres, because that is exactly what I wanted. I merely wanted to delve into the pool of opinions that is out there at this time. This was simply me collecting data, something I enjoy doing, that is all.

Avenger-Ashnod is a self declared 'spokesperson' for the Teragen. That is what she does, and quite well I might add. While you are also a self defined Terat, you have never declared yourself a spokesperson. No, you seem more along the line of the strong arm of Terat philosophy as opposed to a talker. I am sure Jager meant no offense.

[Ashnod]

Spokesperson? Jeez, PC Terats...

Spokeswoman, thank you, and yes, the self-appointed part applies too.

Unless you count the truth of the matter, which is merely that we drew names out of a hat to determine who got what job. Mal drew High Muck Muck. Orzaiz drew Spin Doctor. I drew OpNet Relations. Lucky me.

At least I didn't draw what Sluice did, which was fall guy.

[Avenger]

...and I drew Inter-Nova Council Relations. Oh, and Object of Derision For Everyone Else.

I'll present a more thorough conteraction when I better have time.

--Avenger

------------------

"Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired."

avengingcrusader@hotmail.com

[Apep]

So what the hell does that make me? Wait, don't answer that.

[Ashnod]

I don't remember what you drew, hon. I thought it was Wetworks, but at times I not so sure.

[Guest]

>That being the case, I have to ask the >Terats out there; do baselines have the >right to protect themselves against Novas? >Avenger, you hold baseline laws in disdain. >Does this mean you feel you can ignore >their prohibitions against murder? Theft? >Rape? Now, please don't go to the example >of the late mayor of Tampa. He was trying >to enact legislation that would not protect >baselines, but would affect the rights of >Novas.

I'm not actually a member of your little clique but I might have some insights due to my -- erm -- unusual life history. You'll have to excuse the nickname. I got it when I was a baseline and it stuck even after I erupted. You might even remember the story.

Both my parents were primatologists working with chimps in the wild and I, as an seven year old, was with them. My parents were killed by poachers and I was left alone in the jungle with a load of chimps, who for whatever reason took me in... and that is a mystery It was 6 months before I was rescued. It was all over the news... this was the late 80s way before the Galatea. Anyway that's where I got the nickname (it's shortened from the Feral Child). I decided to follow in my parents' footsteps and became a primatologist. I erupted when another band of poachers attacked the group of bonobos (pygmy chimps) I was working with and shot me in the chest. Though it was the lead male chimp who ripped the gunman limb from limb not me. I swear I'm not making it up. Anyway that's why I have some insights.

Onto the questions.

>Now, I've posted the below earlier and it >was not addressed (as there was another, >more engrossing topic being discussed). But >I am curious as to how the Terats here >would answer it.

>Is the killing of a Nova acceptable under >the following circumstances?

>1. A baseling trying to protect his/her >property?

I'm not sure if it's even acceptable for a baseline to kill a baseline in those circumstances.

>2. A baseline trying to protect his/her >family?

Of course. Some people will tell you that baselines won't tolerate animals killing baselines and usually this is true but no one blames chimps for killing poachers who attack their group. Doesn't mean baselines aren't superior to chimps.

3. A baseline trying to protect his/her life?

Absolutely as above.

4. A baseline trying to protect the integrity of his/her mind/personality?

Dubious... too prone to paranoia.

5. A baseline trying to protect another baseline's property, life, and/or the integrity of their mind/personality?

In all cases refer to previous answers.

6. A baseline trying to avenge the loss of another baseline's property, life, and/or the intergrity of their mind/personality?

Chimps don't go in for that... I'd say no. Vengeance is psychologically destructive to a sentient being.

>It has been postulated that Novas have no >need to follow baseline law, if this is >truly the case, do we then have the right >to treat them like animals? Do they have >the right to defend themselves?

Depends how you treat animals doesn't it and what sort of animals. Are humans to be classed as wild animals or domestic ones, for heavens sake. If you aren't going to listen to baseline laws the only thing you can do is trust your judgement.

Oh and in the case of baselines I would advise anyone who might think of splatting one for the hell of it or just because they can that the next baseline they splat might have the gene and erupt into an even bigger nastier nova and come after them. It happens.

Meridian (Feral) Taylor