Trinity RPG - Overpowered toys!

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Ok, something I noticed a while ago but never got around to brining up. There is a heap of tech in the Trinity corebook and tech manual that just seem alittle (or way too) overpowered. One example it the Thermal cutter in the tech manual, it's relatively inexpensive (3dots, 2 for replacement blades and batteries), easily concealable (size of a large pen), deals high amounts of damage (8L, strength not added), and actually serves a purpose out of combat (it actually cuts through stuff! ::rolleyes ). The main redeeming factor is that the superheated blade is just that, a blade, and not a verry high temperature flame which would cause no end of problems if a pc was a powerful pyrokinetic (or moderately powerful, if using freeform). My players have noticed the benefits of the cutter and each pc has at least 1, the legionare and norca have at least 4 each, they have the money and I don't think it's rediculously unbalanced so I've allowed them.

The point of this thread: What gizmo's have you found to be too much bang for buck in the Trinity universe, or too much buck and bugger all bang?

P.S. The vibroblade and sword despite being tools imo should probably deal additional damage to justify the cost and the explaination.

[madcat82]

I like how many of the weapons in the corebook is actualy, IMHO, better than than in the techmanual. I also like that the normal weapon is stronger than most psipowers. Seems logic on some level.

Well, thats my two cents.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Madcat I totally agree with you, but my gripe is with things like the bioflechette carbine (orgotek scorpion) for example once formatted, is deadlier than the plasma gun (88T).

Scorpion: Tech: BIO assualt weapon: Acc:+1, +3* Dmg: 9d10L, 10d10L* Cost: 3

Voss88T: Tech: HT heavy weapon: Acc: +2 Dmg: 9d10L Cost: 5

*when formatted.

Honestly which would you pick?

[VictorHFrost KSC]

the one wthat will continue to burn when i quit firing, with a flame thrower you're talking about collateral damage for usefulness. and if you're a pyrok with a plasma gun, you're practically unstoppable.

Jake

[madcat82]

To be honest, most games I ST, the players almost never use guns (except the enhancer gauntlet) (Sometimes I hate legioners/orgotek).

Well, now, let me think... Humm, The orgotek mosquito, anti insect gun?? ::biggrin

Humm, thats actualy hard... I mean, the plasma gun is small, hardtech and packs a heavy punch, while the biorifle is big, biotech and packs a heavier punch. If I where a blank robber going for a highprofile target, I would go for the plasma gun, If I where a psion looking for a highcombat situation I would take the scorpion.

In my opinion, It all boils down to the situation. While I agree that it is quiet ridicilus that it should be so much better. I think I would compensate It by giving the Plasma gun the ability to do vehicle size damage (seems logical, since it shots a plasma slug) Something like this:

Voss88T: Tech: HT heavy weapon: Acc: +2 Dmg: 6d10L[3] Cost: 5 (and restricted as #¤%¤#%"#)

Although it now that I think about it seems illogical to make it stronger (seems twinkish IMHO), but Im getting off topic. What Im basicly saying is that I agree with you Ayre el KaBeer.

By the way, have you looked into the stellar frontier book, that equipment is way off in my opinion... As is the electronic combat sight, nowdays I only allow my players to use it when they are aiming at stuff, not when they are just shooting in combat.

[knave]

Bah - Flechette carbines are useless if the person being shot at uses so much as a cheap plastic table for cover or as a shield. Try doing that with a plasma gun.

-Knave

[Finbar]

Gee...Not even a mention for the nastiest gun in the books: The Voss 93T High Threat Rifle (Stellar Frontiers)...Coilgun combined with Sonic Blaster combined with Plasma Thrower...Just the thing for anything that scares ya!

FR

[Archer21]

Slugthrower, baby! Yeah! ::biggrin

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Finally some chatter!

Knave- As I see it those metal/ceramic darts have to punch through the tables levels before reaching the target, the table absorbs X amount of damage what goes through (highly likely with 10L) the target has to soak. However if we're talking bulkheads the only weapons I even consider punching through are the Coilguns and ola-firing autocarbines. Concrete walls on the other hand, most slugthrowers except flechettes have a chance of punching through. For sheer class though flaming someone through their cover always cuts it.

VictorHFrost- That is untill you run out of ammo, clip is 20 and is bulky (as is in the description). Firing the flechette when set to maximum gives you 10 shots before changing, but the clips are smaller by far. However if we are talking pyro 5, then we've entered a whole new ballpark. But remember the most psi a psion can ever have is 10, using level 5 requires a minimum of 2 psi to activate then extra to manipulate the plasma (increase size, damage, etc.). On the Battlefield psi runs out too quick.

Madcat- the 88T fires a stream of plasma, too weak I agree (those are the stats I use for a basic flamethrower, I'll post my plama weapons stats later), the Voss 22P is the pistol that fires a bolt dealing 10L. Funnily enough I have no problems with the 22P, I guess it was all in the description. Stellar Frontier, hmm, one of my favorite's! Go on Madcat tell us of the wicked gadget/s you're reffering to ::biggrin .

[Finbar]

A Voss 93T with ECS and aberscope, cop goggles, a formatted BES, and minicomp set up for hacking...And a VARG with a baby-TEAR so it comes when you call...

What more could a teleporting Legionnaire ask for? ::bigsmile

FR

[Ayre el KaBeer]

A Voss 93T with ECS and aberscope, cop goggles, a formatted BES, and minicomp set up for hacking...And a VARG with a baby-TEAR so it comes when you call...

What more could a teleporting Legionnaire ask for? 

FR

Snorts! Bwahahahaa!

[Archer21]

Dangit...gotta get the Stellar Frontier book now. I did pick up the two Field Reports on Extrasolar Colonies and Alien Races.

[knave]

Ayre el KaBeer wrote

Knave- As I see it those metal/ceramic darts have to punch through the tables levels before reaching the target, the table absorbs X amount of damage what goes through (highly likely with 10L) the target has to soak. However if we're talking bulkheads the only weapons I even consider punching through are the Coilguns and ola-firing autocarbines. Concrete walls on the other hand, most slugthrowers except flechettes have a chance of punching through. For sheer class though flaming someone through their cover always cuts it.

Ayre - 1) the flechette rounds in trinity are likely to be slivers of plastic with armour soak doubling against them (or at least I think that's the rule).

Secondly - Flechette high end damage derives from firing more darts - not from more penetration factior. So in my game hiding behind a table will always be hard cover against a flechette gun. - the table will just start looking like a hedgehog.

[ProfPotts]

A lot of this seems a classic 'apples & oranges' comparison - the two guns, for example, are useful for different things. It's like saying 'why would anyone every use a flamethrower when an assault rifle is so much better?' - it's not a fair comparison.

Want to drill a single target full of flechettes? Use a Stinger. Want to sweep a room clear of targets? Use a Plasma Gun (that's what the 'Sp' in the 'Mnv' column is there for, right? ::wink ).

A more helpful comparison may be the Plasma Gun Vs a 21st century flamethrower (Aberrant p.276):

Flamethrower: Acc': +4, Damage: 10d10 (damage halved each turn until put out), Range: 10 meters, ROF: 1, Capacity: 30, Mass: 100 kg

Plasma Gun: Acc': +2, Damage: 9D10, Range: 30 meters, ROF: 15, Capacity: 20, Mass: 20 kg

So - a Plasma Gun is really a mini-flamethrower that fires a more concentrated blast. It does a little less damage, & doesn't 'coat' the target (like napalm from the flamethrower), & has less shots, but also has a greater range, & is much lighter. The flamethrower's stats also include any 'spray' ability in it's large accuracy bonus, whereas the Plasma Gun gets a good bonus, but can also use the 'spray' & 'multiple shot' moves (so you can sweep a room, or pick off single targets). Both weapons have similar stategic roles to play - neither is suited as a sniper rifle ::sly !

The thermal cutter issue doesn't seem too bad either - it's a deadly weapon for what? 15 seconds? It has a 5 cm blade, & breaks on a botch. It's basically a high-tech Stanley-knife: nasty if it gets you, sure, but no match in melee for a trained guy with a sword. A guy with a sword & Strength of 3 can match the cutter's damage, & with none of the penalties. Sure, the cutter's a useful weapon in some situations, but I can't see how it's unbalanced.

The ECS I always presumed used the rules for all other scopes (under Aiming on p.245 of the Trinity book) - it just adds 4 dice instead of the usual 2 (& all the funky 'see through cover' stuff). The Aberscope is only really any use to a Neutral - since a typical Psion will have detected the squid several kilometers before the 'scope tells him it's there!

1) the flechette rounds in trinity are likely to be slivers of plastic with armour soak doubling against them (or at least I think that's the rule).

Never heard that one before - house rule maybe? Seems strange though - since the whole flechette principle is built around a lighter round that makes up the difference in mass with superior armour piercing properties. Those guns are limited enough in-game as it is anyway - their ROF listings are deceptive, since you can't really ever fire more than one concentrated 'burst' per round with the things - for the size & cost you're generally gonna' be better off with a laser carbine (in most infantry situations - flechettes are nice in house-to-house type stuff where their limited range isn't an issue).

And a VARG with a baby-TEAR so it comes when you call...

That one I'll leave at home, next to my +5 Vorpal Sword of Dragon Slaying... ::tongue ::wink ::rolleyes

[knave]

QUOTE 

1) the flechette rounds in trinity are likely to be slivers of plastic with armour soak doubling against them (or at least I think that's the rule).

Never heard that one before - house rule maybe? Seems strange though - since the whole flechette principle is built around a lighter round that makes up the difference in mass with superior armour piercing properties. Those guns are limited enough in-game as it is anyway - their ROF listings are deceptive, since you can't really ever fire more than one concentrated 'burst' per round with the things - for the size & cost you're generally gonna' be better off with a laser carbine (in most infantry situations - flechettes are nice in house-to-house type stuff where their limited range isn't an issue).

That's wierd - I could have sworn I saw that listed somewhere... hmmm maybe its a shadowrun carryover... wierd. I thought the principle of flechette is that it shreds flesh, but isn't terribly good against armour... or space viewing windows etc.

[ProfPotts]

As far as I'm aware modern flechettes are designed to go through body armour (soft-stuff that is - like kevlar) & (as you point out) shred flesh. They're like hyper-velocity, fin-stabilised, needles, right? In either case, I'd say their AP effects / number fired / low mass / high-velocity all cancel out enough so-as to not require specialized rules re-Soak in-game.

I've seen some other RPGs make flechettes highly effective Vs armour & some make them useless against armour - I guess it's a designer's call (especially in a sci-fi game). I just don't recall ever reading any special flechette Vs Soak rules for Trinity. ::confused

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Current flechette's do slice through armour, I'm not sure how well they'd work against the armour plates in body armour though due to their speed.

Knave there is a line in the core book that says some flechettes use high density plastics aswell as metal and ceramics, but nothing is stated about them being less effective against armour.

As for roleplaying games listing on flechettes the only one I'm familiar with is in WOD Combat, where soak provided by armour is halved but they do 1 less die of damage compared to amunition of similar calibre.

Alittle info: Conventional flechette weaponry first appeared for use in artillery guns to provide a short ranged deffense for the artillery postions against enemy troops. Later they were designed for millitary shotguns, there were other versions that cropped up that I think were called the shard, needle, and shred guns. The 12 gauge flechette shells are currently available and used for pighunting by some hunters.

[ProfPotts]

The ECS I always presumed used the rules for all other scopes (under Aiming on p.245 of the Trinity book) - it just adds 4 dice instead of the usual 2 (& all the funky 'see through cover' stuff).

Just to add to that, the 'big gun' in Stellar Frontiers states that the ECS, at least when accessed via a HUD or similar, does indeed add it's 4 dice bonus to accuracy - not just to normal scope use. I'd suggest that without the HUD it'd still only add it's bonus as per the normal scope rules - but that's just me being logical & all... ::sly

In either case, I'd want one for my gun! ::wink

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I wouldn't add that +4 plus a scope bonus aswell, just doesn't seem right to me.

A rule I want to check with you guys, it says in the Trinity core book that you can't aim at someone moving at a run or sprint. I'd have no problem with this if they were only referring to fairly short ranged combat, but if a target is more than say 50 meters, IMO it doesn't matter if they are running, you can use aimiing to your advantage. What's your call on this?

[Finbar]

1) I'd keep it, but that's mainly because a) it has no advantage, and it's based of a separate piece of equipment (major issue if you've actually seen an EK setting up for an ambush).

2) Based on IRL info, I'd go with the book. Basically, without a scope, it's hard enough to aim at a moving target, the faster the harder. With a scope, it gets harder because you're trying to keep the target in view as you aim. If you get used to tracking, and then the target does any kind of vector change, you lose it...

FR

[Nullifier]

There may be an exception to the book rule that can. If, for instance you knew with fair good accuracy everything about the target's movements, enough to predict them at the time, say with Clairvoyance or something similar, or with a lot of time spent watching the person, you should be able to aim at them while they're moving in a predictable pattern, even if they're running flat out. Not that the ST shouldn't feel free to mess with that pattern within reason. ::devil

[ProfPotts]

I wouldn't add that +4 plus a scope bonus aswell, just doesn't seem right to me.

No, I wouldn't advocate that. I'd rule that the ECS acts as a scope (with a total +4 bonus instead of the usual scope bonus) normally (since it's a scope, after all). If connected to a HUD or similar it instead grants a +4 accuracy bonus - but no extra scope / aiming bonuses on top of that. Put another way, if it's just a scope you need to aim to use the thing, if it's connected to a HUD then you don't need to aim to use the thing.

[Finbar]

For those not in the know...

The ECS is attached to the Voss93T, and a HUDset, either by cable or bodynet. In essence, it shares some of the qualities of a scope and a targeting system. It's also worth noting that without access to the ECS, the Voss93T has no accuracy bonus (as do most other firearms). Also, excluding the aberscope, no scope may be attached to the rifle.

FR

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Just read the Coalition Gamma Riffle in AE:Deception, I love it! ::ohcrap Verry powerfull but that power is slightly offset by no acc bonus and it's users are "poorly trained" to fire the weapon. I would have preffered a smaller clip and a higher mass rating, but what can you do? It's armour penetration Is truely frightening armours with a Lethal raiting lower than 4 are bypassed, this I think could have been reduced or not been introduced at all.

Acc: 0, Damage: 12D10, Range: 450meters, ROF: 2, Capacity: 30, Mass: 3kg

It's a good day to be an EK when a Spinal decides to shoot you rather than tear you appart.