Aberrant RPG - Mega Strength restrictions

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Considerring the +[5] to damage, might, etc. I don't believe in allowing Mega strength to be rolled with a standard to hit (brawl) roll and have therefore banned this in my games. Does anyone else do this? Do you think I'm being unfair? Do you agree with this? talk to me! ::devil

[Bahamut810]

Quite frankly I dont think that Brawl+str needs to be rolled together to hit. Strength has nothing to do with actually hitting someone, only with how hard they hit.

[Nullifier]

Well... That's not entirely true. Strength, when applied in the manner of hitting or kicking someone, has to do with speed. The main reason someone stronger does more damage when they hit is that their appendage is moving faster. More speed, more force, damage, knockback, etc. However hitting a moving target is a lot easier if the thing you're hitting them with is moving very fast, and at +[5] damage per dot of Mega-Str, that's very fast. You try dodging a fist that's moving faster than a bullet, and see how you fare. ::crazy Just my opinion, mind.

[phoenix]

What irks me is that running speed is based on dexterity and not strength. Dexterity in running can be used to cut down wind resistance and wasted energy, and stamina determines how long you can keep it up, but basically, the stronger you are, the faster you should be able to pump your legs.

[Bahamut810]

But you also have to consider the mass of the person (something the system dosent take into account). Sure they may have Mstm...but how well is that when you weigh a good 500 lbs?

The way they have it set up is so that how quick you are physically is taken care of all with one stat to keep complications down. To try to add Str to it would just mean that you would have to take into account weight and all that.

[Alex Green]

Considerring the +[5] to damage, might, etc. I don't believe in allowing Mega strength to be rolled with a standard to hit (brawl) roll and have therefore banned this in my games. Does anyone else do this? Do you think I'm being unfair? Do you agree with this? talk to me! ::devil

This isn't a house rule. This is the standard, core book rule.

And yes, I agree with you. Letting the Hulk hit Spiderman easier than vise versa is broken.

[knave]

Exactly- that's the rule- MStr has nothing to do with brawling. The question you have to ask yourself when you start going on about what else should be included in the calculation is - how accurately do you want to model real life? A weightlifter can lift heavier stuff than a runner, but he can't run faster. Strength exists by muscle group. Other factors also exist - lung capacity, flexibility, weight ratios etc etc... The point is - either a game is simulationist enough for you to maintain suspension of disbelief or it isn't. If it isn't then you need to change it or find one that is. qed ::smokin

[Reighnhell]

In my groups, this is a bone of contention. A Character with Str 5 Brawl 5 Mega-Str 2 Mega-Dex 2 is at quite the Disadvantage when fighting a character with the same stats except Martial Arts instead of Brawl.

Considering the Martial Arts also can be used for dodges, you wind up with a situation where brawl is stricltly inferior to martial arts. I make up for this by ruling that Martial-Artscannot be used with high levels of sizemorph grow, or while in a emotional frenzy, but most folks just take the kung-Fu and call it a day. Any idea's on this system would be welcome.

[ProfPotts]

Well, a couple of the more helpful moves (Tackle & Hyperspeed Slam) are Brawl-only, as would be any attack made when the character isn't calm & in control (e.g. under the influence of a Hormone Imbalance aberration, or otherwise irrational). Martial Arts also get's it's own moves though.

I guess the system just rewards people who shell-out for both Mega-Attributes instead of just the one - which doesn't seem much of an issue to me (no more so that picking effective Mega-Attribute & Power combo's anyway). Personally I go with Brawl or MA depending on the style of the character I'm building. Mega-Dex' is still useful without MA, after all - even for MA moves if you choose to try them with zero dots in the Ability.

You could also argue that, with things like Immobilize & net-guns running about, a Dex-based dice pool is more likely to suffer in combat than a Str-based one - not to mention the bulkiness penalty for armour comes off Dex-based pools only (you can Brawl quite happily in Advanced Combat Armour). In the end I guess it comes down to the environments you tend to fight in, & the style you fight in.

In RL I've know expert martial artists who got the proverbial crap beaten out of them in bar fights by untrained toughs - just 'cos the environment didn't suit the style of fighting - you could give Brawl more benefit of the doubt in certain unorthodox fight situations just because it is less 'formal'. That doesn't exactly follow the game rules, but it'd be a possibility.

Maybe a guy fighting with Martial Arts could be prone to having his moves 'read' by a similarly trained opponent (e.g. a Per + Martial Arts to gain an advantage in combat)?

You could even choose to limit the amount of Strength that can be put behind a Martial Art attack (which, by game definition, relies on speed rather than strength) - although that seems a little extreme to me.

Maybe you could reduce the amount of knockback done by Martial Arts attacks (maybe half normal) - to simulate Brawl's superior focus on 'power'?

[knave]

In my groups, this is a bone of contention. A Character with Str 5 Brawl 5 Mega-Str 2 Mega-Dex 2 is at quite the Disadvantage when fighting a character with the same stats except Martial Arts instead of Brawl.

Considering the Martial Arts also can be used for dodges, you wind up with a situation where brawl is stricltly inferior to martial arts. I make up for this by ruling that Martial-Artscannot be used with high levels of sizemorph grow, or while in a emotional frenzy, but most folks just take the kung-Fu and call it a day. Any idea's on this system would be welcome.

I like your solution to this problem with the sizemorph etc - makes sense, but I kinda disagree about the dodges. M/A can be used for ranged dodges too - yeah - if you pull off some sort of somersault thingywhatsit. But - in H2H I see no reason why Brawl can't also be used for dodges. Which makes them equal for that.

Another alternative or possibly an addition is to force the person taking the skill to take a style (for free) with at minimum a +1/-1 to punch/kick or whatever. This more closely simulates real life situations. Second and further styles must then be purchased at half or 2/3rds xp cost as whole skills - meaning that if you want to be a good M/Atist you need to spend a lot of xp on it.

-Knave

[Ayre el KaBeer]

It's in the rules?!?!?! errr.... whoops!

Another alternative or possibly an addition is to force the person taking the skill to take a style (for free) with at minimum a +1/-1 to punch/kick or whatever. This more closely simulates real life situations. Second and further styles must then be purchased at half or 2/3rds xp cost as whole skills - meaning that if you want to be a good M/Atist you need to spend a lot of xp on it.

Old WOD rules (if I'm remembering this right) where that Martial Arts was the only skill that cost more than any other (X3 instead of X2). Their reasoning is that it requires far more discipline than the others and also covered brawl, dodge, and athletics.

[phoenix]

In RL I've know expert martial artists who got the proverbial crap beaten out of them in bar fights by untrained toughs - just 'cos the environment didn't suit the style of fighting - you could give Brawl more benefit of the doubt in certain unorthodox fight situations just because it is less 'formal'.

Well on the other hand, you know what they say in boxing: a good little guy can never beat a good big guy.

Well, a couple of the more helpful moves (Tackle & Hyperspeed Slam) are Brawl-only, as would be any attack made when the character isn't calm & in control (e.g. under the influence of a Hormone Imbalance aberration, or otherwise irrational).

Really? About the HI thing, is that canon or your rule? I can certainly picture a megadextrous martial artist with a tendency to go nuts and kill things, but it would be kind of anticlimatic if he all of a sudden started using Brawl moves to no effect whatsoever. Although it'd be kind of funny.

No skin off my back, John's a brawler.

[Alex Green]

In my groups, this is a bone of contention. A Character with Str 5 Brawl 5 Mega-Str 2 Mega-Dex 2 is at quite the Disadvantage when fighting a character with the same stats except Martial Arts instead of Brawl.

I guess my answer to this is, "so what?".

For the same points you could build someone with 4 levels of M-Str and just brawl (heck, I've done that on this forum; witness Iron Angel).

The skills are useful in different circumstances. Meaning that saying Martial Arts is more useful than Brawl is like saying it is more useful than Science. They are different skills and are used for different types of characters.

On thing I will point out is that I don't have a problem with allowing a charcter with a "boxing" background take "martial arts" rather than "brawl". (For the word "boxing" you can also substitute "any hand to hand combat skill").

For a 20 year old bar room brawler, Boxing is brawl. For a 13 year old (str = 1, dex = 4) learning how to fight, it might be martial arts.

[phoenix]

For a 20 year old bar room brawler, Boxing is brawl.

No! A bar room brawler using Brawl? ::wink

[ProfPotts]

... Really? About the HI thing, is that canon or your rule?..

I thought it was canon - but when I checked I found that my mind had misplaced that information from somewhere else (maybe KotE or something)... ::wacko

I don't think I'd restrict a Martial Artist from using his Ability if Hormonally Imbalanced, if it came down to it - it was more a suggestion to help tackle the original poster's perception of imbalance between MA & Brawl.

Thinking about it - the easiest solution would be to allow a Mega-Dex' Brawler to add their Mega-Dex' dice to their Strength + Brawl dice pool to attack. Don't know why I didn't think of that sooner... ::confused

[Ange Gardien]

Thinking about it - the easiest solution would be to allow a Mega-Dex' Brawler to add their Mega-Dex' dice to their Strength + Brawl dice pool to attack. Don't know why I didn't think of that sooner... ::confused

It seems that you found the right way.

In my Game, I link TWO or attributs to one competence.

Brawl is a matter of Strengh and Dex.

Pilot a matter of Perception and Wits

I have creating Mega Attribute WillPower, too...

Occultism would be a matter of Intelligence and Wilpower.

Intimidation a matter of Charisma (more than App) and Strengh or Manipulation ()

So the player choose his best Mega Attribute.

But I'm playing with a mix of Call of Cthulhu and Adventure! / Aberrant.

[Bahamut810]

The only thing about that is that would make dice pools all the larger and make the ST think more. And for some of thoes I think would be a bit too much

Depending on which rolls you are making as well, most notably in contests.

Lets say that for your Occultism example, person 1 has 1 dot in Int and Occultism, and 8 dots in WP...while person 2 has 3 dots in int and 3 dots in Occultism and 3 WP. Person 1 is not nearly as smart or well informed as person 2 will be on equal footing with him out of sheer force of will.

for your brawl example...it is a common sentiment that Brawl should be rolled with Dex to hit...Str is not relly a factor in wether you can hit or not, just how hard you hit.

I can understand that you want to give your players some leeway on what to roll to let them to be able to do more, but there does come a point where you become too nice to them. IMHO this is one of thoes...each stat is linked to a skill so that you dont have to worry about that and they are attached to the most *relevant* skill. You still have the option to cross-match them but it is still a call that you have to make so that people dont take advantage of unrealistic cross matches (most notably WP...*especically* in A!)

Also...to WP as a Mega-Att. I would be interested to hear how you are doing that. It is something that I have never thought of before and Im not sure how well that would work considering the purpose of WP (free sucesses to say the least).

[Finbar]

Sorry, guys, but....

As per pg. 156, Mega-Str adds only apply to "close combat dmage dice pools"; that is, you don't roll with the Brawl roll itself, but when you are determining damage.

Meaning of course, that the "Hulk versus Spidey" fight would go as thought; Spidey hitting often, with little efect, and Hulk missing a lot, but to major effect when he does...

(Sorry for the late response; "Borrowed Rule Book Syndrome" and all that...

FR

[Sprocket]

Re: Willpower as a Mega-Attribute-

Believe it or not, Bahamut, there's already an Aberrant website that deals with that very idea- and they've even got a few enhancments listed for it! I believe it's called "Nova Park", and it has some other interesting variant rules as well. I'll look through EON's Links section to see if it's listed there- if it isn't, I'll hunt down the site myself and post the site address here on this forum. ::smile

[ProfPotts]

Sorry, guys, but....

As per pg. 156, Mega-Str adds only apply to "close combat dmage dice pools"; that is, you don't roll with the Brawl roll itself, but when you are determining damage.

Er... if you check the rest of this thread you'll find that Alex Green pointed that out on September 17 ::confused - the discussion then moved on to what other options could be used if the players in a game thought that characters hitting with Martial Arts (thus gaining the benefit of Mega-Dex if they had it) had an unfair advantage over those using Brawl (where no Mega-Attributes help you to hit).

As for 'Mega-Willpower', I recall a discusion (somewhere) that suggested that a broad category Invulnerability Vs 'any effects that are resisted via Willpower' would have a very similar effect to 'Mega-Willpower' - i.e. you'd gain an extra 6 successes on all Willpower rolls per dot, but wouldn't have anymore Willpower points to spend.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I was working on a version of "Mega-Willpower", I called it Enhanced Will at the time but since gave up on it. Basically it could only be bought with nova points (2 per dot), it provided 1 automatic success and 1 die to roll for will power checks. The limit of 10 willpower always applied but if a player wanted to convert their starting will power (3 plus any extra purchased with bonus poits) into enhanced will it would cost 1 per dot converted. The reason I didn't want it to be too powerful was solely due to maintaining all the advantages mega-manipulation provided (the extra die to resist and detect others attempts to influence you). I also wanted the enhanced will to (sort of) have it's own enhancement, so I was thinking about making the Iron Will merit less expensive (1 BP) if a player was taking EW.

[Sprocket]

Re: Mega-Willpower- Sorry folks, but it appears that the Nova Park site I mentioned in my earlier post has either been shut down, scrapped, or otherwise gone out of business. If any of you want to see the version of Mega-Willpower that was offered on that site, let me know- I've got it on hardcopy somewhere in my files, although it might take a litle digging to find 'em! ::blush So I'm not one of the more organized people...

Re: ProfPotts comment on Mega-Willpower vs. Invulnerability-derived WP successes- I'd have to agree with you there, Professor. From what all I've seen and read, Invulnerability-derived WP successes are functionally identical to the Invulnerability-derived extra soak points. I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of official Mega-Stamina enhancements that increase a nova's soak point total despite that, too. Mega-Willpower is beginning to look all the more reasonable each time I think about it... ::halo

Re: Mega-Willpower enhancements- Bahamut, the Nova Park site's write-up on Mega-WP had about 6 fairly decent enhancements. Just let me know if you'd like for me to post them here, and I will.

[Bayne Antioc]

Okee dokee, here goes:

The difference between Brawl and Martial Arts is control, as has been remarked before. Take, for instance, somebody locked in a hold. If they struggle and heave to escape, that's Brawl. If they push their weight in a particular spot, which buckles a joint and relieves the hold, that's Martial Arts. If they throw a punch, hitting as hard as they can, that's brawl. If they punch, aiming for a joint or particular bone, that's Martial Arts. Martial Arts is controlled, accurate fighting. Brawl is hitting someone with whatever you can, however you can, to stop them from moving. Martial Arts is aimed: Dexterity. Brawl is hitiing as hard and fast as possible: Strength. Martial Arts is build to allow smaller people, with less strength, to defeat larger opponents.

I hope I've helped.

[Turk]

>Well, a couple of the more helpful moves (Tackle & Hyperspeed Slam) are Brawl-only

if there are any tackle or slamming techniques for any form of martial arts, they should be able to tackle or hyper speed slam if they have hyper movement or enhance movement, right?

>I see no reason why Brawl can't also be used for dodges. Which makes them equal for that.

a brawler probably wouldnt be interested in jumping out of the way of an attack when they could block it or simply tke it. could u provide an example for using brawl to dodge?

when my group plays we have some crazy house rules, but it doesnt really take anything away from the game. one house rule that has to do with this is that martial arts damage pools are from total dexterity +2 for a punch and then accordingly for a kick. i can see how that doesnt make sense, but a better suggestions could be to just add the mega dex to the damage pool... but we came about this rule because we were making characters with average strength and lots of mega dex because the characters were martial arts oriented. so y make a martials arts guy have to get extra stuff for damage? becaus eteh book says so, maybe, but doesnt that goldne rule say something about teh ST being able to change whatever he/she wants? ok, and we do damage for mega strength without the +5 per dot too... so mega strength is considerably weaker and makes brawl equal to martial arts.

[knave]

Or just add Brawl rating to strength rating when determining damage dice, so brawl damage = Attack successes + Str + Brawl.

Easy Peazy.

[Alex Green]

a brawler probably wouldnt be interested in jumping out of the way of an attack when they could block it or simply tke it. could u provide an example for using brawl to dodge?

Boxers sometimes dodge.

On the other hand I would like to list Boxing as both Brawl and MA.

[Finbar]

Okay....I'm confused.... ::blink

The by-the-book method (assuming martial arts) would be as follows:

1) Roll Dex+Martial Arts to hit (keep in mind that, expecially with Mega-Dex, there'll be carry-over damage); then

2) Roll [str-Soak] for damage (add any adjustments, carry-over dice, or Mega-Str adjsustments).

And, if you need to dodge, just use Athletics (which uses (Mega) Dex); part of the weirdness is that most martial arts do not teach proper dodging. Before I get nailed on that by martial arts experts, a "proper dodge" is getting totally out of the way a la dodge ball, not avoiding the blow while setting the target up a la fencing or boxing.

(Part of the reason that Spidey (with Mega-Str and Mega-Dex, is a formidable opponent.)

Also, as noted, Martial Arts implies precision; there's little precision in a Slam (all your doing is attempting to move through the opponent; pressure points don't apply ::biggrin ), and all a tackle involves is forcing someone to the ground; nothing subtle there. Outside of graeco-roman wrestling, I know of almost no martial art that really uses either technique.

FR

[knave]

Most martial arts do have turns and rolls which are dodges against pretty much anything. Also, M/A teaches you that the quickest way to duck is to simply fall - which is true everything else involves some sort of upward motion.

Now - if the character is dodging BULLETS he has to get to cover - UNLESS he has Mega Dex at which point he can just sway out of the way because he has that much more 'time' to do it.

Also I agree Alex, Boxing is definitely both - which is why it need speciality rules.

I would say -

Dex - M/A as now.

Str - Brawl as now. Brawlers get to add their Brawl rating to their strength for the purposes of applying damage in addition to any carry over successes.

Also, I think that martial artists should be required to pick a speciality when they start.