Aberrant RPG - Bodymorph and Extras?

[Archer21]

How do Extras work for Bodymorph? Can you purchase Extras for the powers within Bodymorph, or can you only get Extras that apply to Bodymorph itself?

For instance:

Bodymorph: Liquid/Amorphous(3)

-Density Decrease

-Density Decrease

-Density Decrease

If you wanted to get the Full Control Extra for Density Decrease, would you be able to do so? Or are you stuck with stuff like Reflexive, Increased Duration, etc?

[ProfPotts]

Technically buying an Extra for the Density Control would make it a level 3 power & not allowed within a Bodymorph.

[Alex Green]

The root power is Bodymorph, not Density Decrease, and I don't think "Full Control" is buyable for Bodymorph... maybe. This is definately an ST call.

[Nullifier]

Actually, Prof, I believe he was asking if he could buy the exrta for Bodymorph itself, which would make Bodymorph into a level 3 power. If you think about it, he'd even be getting gyped a bit, 'cause the full control wouldn't apply to any of the other suite powers except Denisty Control. At any rate, it's an ST call in my book. ::unsure If it fit the character concept well though, I think I'd allow it. ::bigsmile

[Archer21]

No, actually, I was asking about buying extras for the powers within BM. Prof is right on how it'd become a lvl 3 power. I have no objection to buying the Extra for the BM suite though, if it let me get Full Control.

Still, if I were to purchase say, Claws as a dot within the BM. Since it's a level one power, could I buy the AP Extra for it, since that would only make it a level 2 power?

[Alex Green]

Still, if I were to purchase say, Claws as a dot within the BM. Since it's a level one power, could I buy the AP Extra for it, since that would only make it a level 2 power?

Normally, Yes.

[Nullifier]

::blink ::blink Oh. Erm. Wait. Why/how would you 'buy' an extra for a power within the suite? I mean, it's not like you pay for the actual powers, so it doesn't seem like you'd be able to pay for extras for them in any meaningful fashion. I mean, buying extras for Bodymorph itself, sure, that I could see. For the individual powers, however, it doesn't suggest anywhere that a thing like that is possible.

[Bahamut810]

What they are talking about is that with dots of BM you can buy dots of lvl 1 or lvl 2 powers. That would (techniccally) mean that you can buy a lvl 1 power that is effectuvley a lvl 2 power because it has an extra. A good rule of thumb in my opinion.

A good question along this line of thought...

Can you buy more then 5 dots in BM without having to raise your quantum over 6? The reason I ask is that if someone wanted to be a pure BMer then it would do them good to be able to take more hten a few dots in it to simulate it. Think the human torch...he pretty much had to flame on before he could use his powers.

[Nullifier]

Sure you could. Just buy another Bodymorph suite that works with the first one... Could even make 'em linked, if you want to make them activate together. Take at least 5 points worth of the linking weaknesses, and the reduced QP cost extra, and it activates for nothing, yet is still a level 2 power, essentially making it part of the original suite for all intents and purposes. Just a thought. ::bigsmile

[Alex Green]

Sure you could. Just buy another Bodymorph suite that works with the first one...

So someone could turn into both Air and Iron, at the same time?

[Nullifier]

So someone could turn into both Air and Iron, at the same time?

I dunno. I wouldn't normally think that those two would work together, would you? I suppose if you had an exceedingly good explanation for why those two would work together given the way the mind of the nova in question works then it'd be allowable. I don't particularly have any idea of what or how such a twisted person would think that would cause them to turn into such a creature ::unsure ::confused , but I suppose with enough Taint, anything's possible. ::squid ::thumbsup

[Alex Green]

OK, so I'll reverse the question. Please show us a couple of examples of how it should work.

[Bahamut810]

An Iron Dust cloud

Any metal dust will work for clouds...I would think...

I was speaking of the same element though.

Like:

Bodymorph(fire)-5 (Flightx2, Immolationx3)

Bodymorph(fire)-4 (clawsx4)

[Nullifier]

OK, so I'll reverse the question. Please show us a couple of examples of how it should work.

I'm not your brain. Figure it out for yourself.

[Alex Green]

I'm not your brain. Figure it out for yourself.

It's your suggestion, not mine. If you don't have any ideas on how to make it work then that makes two of us.

As for Iron Dust,

For Iron you are going to be buying Density Increase.

For Air you are going to be buying Density Decrease.

Both Bodymorphs turn on all their purchased powers at once.

I can see having both powers, I just don't see how they couldn't be independant, i.e. how could you possibily turn them on at the same time? (Although if you are going to be buying Fire/Ice/Iron/Air etc, you should probably look at Matter Cham).

If you combine Iron and Air to make BM: Dust, then that is one power and you still have to worry about the 5 dot limit.

[phoenix]

Hmm.. I can't see using 2 BMs simultaneously.. once you turn your body into iron, it's no longer flesh, right? So once you activate a second BM and turn your body into air, it's no longer iron and no longer has the properties thereof.

[Bahamut810]

What I was talking about was the same element though. What about hte same element?

[phoenix]

::huh I wouldn't think so.

[Bahamut810]

So linking 2 BM's of the same element is right out then?

[Alex Green]

Part of me says that you probably can't have 2 BM's of the same element, any more than you can have 5 dots of Armor and 5 dots of Armor+Imp. There is a 5 dot max and we are stuck with it.

However, you could do something real similar (although you still couldn't link them).

BM: Fire (Density Decrease x 3; Flight, Hyperflight)

BM: Fire (Storm x 3; Flight, FF).

You could probably do something like that and then switch back and forth at will, but you couldn't link them.

Having said that, you would be better off just buying BM once and then buying associated power (Elemental Anima: Fire to give you the storm). The system is set up to opperate this way.

[Blade90]

Heres a question though. Most bodymorph powers require at least 1 point in density control, either increase or decrease of course depending on what your morphing into. But can you for example get the density control power first, and then later get a bodymorph power and not be required to put any points of density control in it? I would of course understand that you would have to activate your density control power before you could activate bodymorph, and in turn meaning you would essentually have to pay 4 quantum points to activate bodymorph when you would only have to pay 2 if you just got the bodymorph with one or more points of density control in it. But on the other hand that could open up more points in your bodymorph power to use for other things, and it can work well with a characters story. Say originally they only knew how to increase or decrease thier density, but eventually they learn to 'take it a step further' and transform into some sort of solid, gas, liquid, or whatever else.

[Alex Green]

I think we are deep into "talk to the ST" territory here. If it were me... it would largely be player specific.

One solution would be (as you said) linkages, where the BM doesn't turn on unless the DC already is.

Another solution would be for the ST to say "no", a dot of BM Density Controll isn't *really* a dot of DC, it's only simulating it so you aren't freed from buying it.

And... WELCOME TO THE FORUM BLADE90!!!

[metaphysician]

Woohoo, fresh meat! Hope you stick around, this place needs more visitors.

[Blade90]

I kinda figured that might be the case, but still figured I would make sure here. And thanks, I should be sticking around. You might be seeing (reading? whatever) a bit of me as well Alex, considering I might be joining the Prometheans Unbound game your in. Cottus Centimane is my bro, and he introduced me to this place.

[the Darkness]

High there, long time lurker, first time poster here.

regarding wanting to have more than 5 dots worth of bodymorph, i suggest using not linked powers, but rather dependant ones.

in the example of johnny storm, maybe buy the density decrease, immolate and flight with BM dots, then buy hypermove (flight) and quantum bolt each separately with a 2 point dependancy to BM.

[Alex Green]

Wecome to the forum the Darkness!!!

Dependancy with Q-Bolt works pretty well. I'm less sure about H-move. In theory it works but H-move (Flight) is already dependant on flight just because of the way the powers work. H-move (Running or swimming) works though.

[the Darkness]

Wecome to the forum the Darkness!!!

thanks for the welcome.

regarding hypermove or whatever other power being already dependant on flight, thats not really my point.

I was just giving an example to the question of how to get more powers included in bodymorph. ie: put the powers you plan to use most often in bodymorph itself.

abilities that you would use less often, but still have no access to outside of bodymorph could be purchased as dependant upon bodymorph.

(minmaxers note: purchase stuff that requires dice rolls as bodymorph ::devil )

[SkyLion]

Thats *IF* your ST will let you use weaknesses like Dependant (*cough* Potts... ::glare )

(Seriously Potts! Sometimes certain powers need such limitations for theme...dangit!)

[the Darkness]

well... even if you have such a storyteller, you can still buy the powers and use them as though they had that weakness. nothing stops you

[SkyLion]

well... even if you have such a storyteller, you can still buy the powers and use them as though they had that weakness. nothing stops you

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True...but when you limit something in such a way its versatility narrows when compared to someone without such limitations. Especially for Bodymorph...If you can only fly with your bodymorph on and someone disrupts your bodymoreph, you're F^%&*#! The idea of the stength and weakness system is so that you can get a little compensation for taking minor flaws. Actually this is a particularly sore point for me. I love linking powers together to create unique and interesting combinations. It was one of my favorite things about the HERO system that I do wish dear old ProffPotts would come 'round to for Abby.... ::sad

[Alex Green]

The problem isn't the weaknesses, the problem is the strengths.

[metaphysician]

Maybe what they should have done is offer another usage of weaknesses, specifically -1 XP cost per level of weakness?

You'd need to keep an eye out for people sticking non-weakening weaknesses on low level powers so as to reduce their cost down to near nothing, but I'd rather have a slightly reduced cost than some of the other benefits allowed.

[SkyLion]

I dont see -1 xp as being of tangible benefit to offset a permanent weakness. Besides, what if youre doing it at chargen? 1 NP would be better...like getting a taint discount without the taint. I agree the strengths were poorly thought out. Doesn't mean they aren't salvagable. Besides some of them are good, like adding a dot for range calculation considerations that sort of thing.

[metaphysician]

Sure it would be. You now have a new power, and also XP free to spend on other things. Though yes, you can argue about the rate. 1 NP is probably too much though.

[ProfPotts]

SkyLion - I like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy... if you have a problem with the way I run games, & feel the need to constantly take issue in public forums, then the simple solution is - don't play in my games.

Yes... for once I feel the 'pissed off' smiley is in order... ::angry

[SkyLion]

SkyLion - I like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy... if you have a problem with the way I run games, & feel the need to constantly take issue in public forums, then the simple solution is - don't play in my games.

Yes... for once I feel the 'pissed off' smiley is in order... ::angry

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Hey now! Lets keep tempers down...

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I was responding in topic on the idea of strengths and weaknesses. I think its okay to express opnions. Im sorry if you felt called out and I didnt mean to say i dont enjoy your games. Would I be playing or about to be playing in so many if I didnt really like them?

,,

It is true that I wish you would'nt be so unilateral in banning things like strengths and weakness, and my previous post was commenting more on how the HERO system does it so well (though I shudder at the thought of trying to play and bookeep with *that* system on PBP forums...::shudder:.

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For example i had an idea for a character last night while driving home about a character who can create a corrosive substance that only works on metal. That is something that would require a weakness in Abby rules, and it is truly a weakness. Sure it would be great to disolve thugs guns without hurting them or against collossus, but it is a truly limited for of [q-bolt/immolate] in that it wouldnt be useful for alot of other situations.

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Thats the kind of stuff i am talking about. Or like having powers that dont work in daylight or what have you...

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Now let me say that i CAN see the other side of this.

,,

I imagine it must be frustrating as hell to get your ST inbox filled with character proposals (and this being the internet and all...) chock full of half thought out player powers and as you say weaknesses that arent really weakness and the whole horribly unbalanced and poorly implemented strength system. I can see why you wuold want to make it much easier on yourself and just unilaterally ban the poorly executed parts.

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Im more mad at the daft folks at white wolf who rushed such unplaytested crap to the market in the first place and the ****** players who submit characters like this:

,,

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Can we be friends again, please? ::sad

[SkyLion]

Thats *IF* your ST will let you use weaknesses like Dependant (*cough* Potts... ::glare )

(Seriously Potts! Sometimes certain powers need such limitations for theme...dangit!)

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,,

Alex brought to my attention that this was the offending post.

,,

Apologies for the sarcasm. I should have included a ::tongue or a ::wink .

,,

I would hate to see hard feelings or percieved flaming dampen anyones fun, Potts or mine.

,,

We now return you to your regularly scheduled posting.

[Alex Green]

I dont see -1 xp as being of tangible benefit to offset a permanent weakness. Besides, what if youre doing it at chargen? 1 NP would be better...like getting a taint discount without the taint.

As opposed to Taint. Seriously, Taint is about as perm as it gets, but we see people (including myself on occassion) go whole hog on it.

+1 Taint for a level 2 power or a mega gives you +1 Nova point.

That implies that taking a minor flaw on a power that you don't need to use (basically all of them) shouldn't be anything close to a nova point. A point of exp isn't a lot, but they add up, and 6 exp is basically 3 nova points, implying that every exp is basically a half a nova point.

Better still, going with exp prevents the char gen Nova-point all-too-efficient buys of Attr and Abilities.

Further, I don't have a problem with someone getting some exp at char gen... although that somewhat opens the door for min-maxing.

[O-Sensei]

The example in the corebook regarding bodymorph says Houston Tornado 2 buys 4 dots of bodymorph, 3 in DD and 1 as Storm (from a level 3 power), how does that activate? The storm power activates instantly along with the other powers or can she decide when she wants the storm to kick in and is that included in the 2 quantum point cost for activating Bodymorph or will she have to pay 3 extra quantumpoints when she activates the storm??? ::confused

Can you get any instant powers with Bodymorph (like blast, crush, sphere from elemental Anima/Mastery)?

And if so would the usage be for free or at an ekstra cost pr. use? ::confused

[Alex Green]

Many of these issues are either players choice or need to be resolved with the ST. My read on this however is....

Huston Tornado 2 (HT2) buys DD3 and Storm 1 in her bodymorph (I think HT2 is a chick). At the time the power is purchased she needs to decide, is Storm a natural part of her? I.e. does she actually become a Tornado? Assuming the answer is "yes", then that power activates when the bodymorph activates, just like normal. This is the standard way to handle things.

However, assume she claims she really becomes is a big cloud of gas, and the "tornado" effect isn't always on (she spins or something). In that case she'd need to drop 2q (not 3, it's a level 2 power) to activate it independantly of turning on the bodymorph. I.e. she'd need to have bodymorph up to be able to access that power, then she'd also have to pay for it's use seperately.

Similarly, if she buys a dot in Q-Bolt, then since it's an instant power she can't have it always on. Here she'd need to pay 2q to activate it. This sort of thing is pretty rare. She already has the theme of air control, she could just buy Q-Bolt(Wind) directly and it'd be both cheaper and more versitile.

Also similarly, while I've never seen anyone take "Sphere" as a technique, in theory it could be done and also in theory, it might be effective for some characters. For example someone might have Q3, and two dots of a bodymorph. That 3rd dot is only 10 exp and Sphere is area (perhaps the ST might even rule it's lethal damage if the bodymorph effect is fire or radiation). As an added bonus, the character could buy Reduced Quantum Cost on his bodymorph and it would effect all the powers in it, so he'd only be paying 1q per Sphere attack, or nothing if he halves it.