Aberrant RPG - Teleport 'Physics'

[ProfPotts]

Moved from the QZ-Elites thread:

(Your call obviously - but consider the rationale behind the trinity teleporters taking on the momentum (ONLY) of the area they port into is twofold: Firstly - we're on 'starship earth' (if you'll excuse the phrase) - which is moving pretty quickly - so really any momentum you have is in addition to that possessed by earth. So if you maintain your momentum and you teleport off earth - what are you using in place of basic earthly momentum... do you have to teleport onto something bigger than a certain size or do you keep Earth's momentum and float off? Also whilst still on earth - maintaining your momentum would mean it is impossible to teleport onto any sort of moving vehicle without serious injury or having to accelerate to that vehicle's velocity and possibly also its vector.

The second big reason is game balance. This generally involves the effect of firing a rail gun into a warp gate or similar. Truly horrible.)

Ok, there's a couple of points there.

First - Trinity & Aberrant Teleport powers are from very different in-game sources: Psions merge with the 'universal element of Psi' & 'move without moving' to another place. Novas gain their powers in myriad different ways, but none of them do that.

Second - The difference in Teleports is highlighted in the different game mechanics for the two powers. Psions 'ports are limited only by familiarity - they work on the principle that distance is an illusion, that all points of the universe are one (kinda' like the Correspondance stuff in Mage, or 'folding space' in Dune). This is why the only factor for a Psion's 'port difficulty is how familiar the destination is - distance is irrelevant.

For a Nova 'porter almost the exact opposite is true - the only limiting factor to the power is distance. Familiarity with the destination helps, but isn't vital, & difficulty for the 'port is based almost completely on the distance travelled.

Third - the scales involved are often different. Psion 'porters are designed to travel the stars - it's a sci-fi game after all. Nova 'porters rarely leave Earth, apart from a few specific stories (unless a ST has a pretty non-cannon game). Those annoying little problems of interstellar momentum don't often crop-up for Novas - & momentum changes from being here on Earth to being there aren't great enough to have much effect beyond a little colour.

Fourth - the game-balance Warp example: in Aberrant you can specifically throw (&, one presumes, fire) things through a Warp, so yes, you can lob grenades through or fire railguns at enemies on the other side. Only environmental concerns don't equalise (pressure & temperature, specifically). I find it useful to think of the Warp 'window' as having a sort-of virtual 'membrane' over it - anything smaller than the actual window surface can push through, anything larger or area-based can't. So, if a Nova opened a Warp to the bottom of the ocean you'd see a window of water (lit from the Nova's side no doubt), & maybe a few fish. If someone stuck his hand through, it'd be crushed by pressure (or a deep-sea fish could swim through the Warp, & probably explode on the lower-pressure side), but alone the water-pressure can't breach the Warp.

In Aberrant I prefer to use the old Nightcrawler physics - momentum is maintained during Teleport. So yes, if a Nova 'ports into a car going 100 kph, he's hit by a 100 kph impact (just like if he'd stepped in front of the thing, but with cushions... ::wink ). If he wants to 'port to Mars, his best bet is to port into space near Mars (less stuff to impact against in space), & use a different power (like Flight) to change his momentum to match the planet, before doing anything else.

Warp, as a 'doorway', is slightly different, & easier, to work out. Momentum is maintained when a Warp is entered, just the location of the character is changed to the other side - the Warp's 'exit point' has already done all the hard work in matching planetary rotation & all that stuff so, to the character, he just carries on moving as normal.

[knave]

cool... as long as everyone knows the impact of what they're doing i'm happy ; p

[Finbar]

Top 2 Miscellaneous notes:

1) It's canon, not cannon....It can be an explosive game, but sheesh...

2) Re: Teleporters going from Earth: Run the numbers sometime: The distances aren't as small as you'd think...

That said:

Physics doesn't really enter into the game re: Teleport & Warping. If I can argue that a man on fire isn't burning because he's bodymorphed into flame, then there's a certain breakdown in the arguement. Basically, if I can 'port there, why can't set my "momentum register" to wherever I am, trusting that the same "immunity to my own powers" logic will hold true? Why, if I'm teleporting into a moving car, would I be foolish enough to not set my momentum as the same as the car's? Just hoping for really fluffy pillows? ::biggrin

Basically, whereas I agree that they have different origins, I think that the end effect is the same: You can teleport reasonably safely, with a momentum match with either one. (Assuming the rolls agree.... ::tongue )

FR

[knave]

I wasn't trying to be difficult - I was trying to understand the effect of the thing. Whether porting was a fairly powerful power that can get you around ala Trinity Warping - or a powerful power that held onto momentum - only - or like nightcrawler where momentum, direction and location are all a factor of whim - which is a monster power really ; P

-Knave

[Alex Green]

...momentum changes from being here on Earth to being there aren't great enough to have much effect beyond a little colour...

Ah, no. I don't have any physics books with me, but as I recall, the equator is moving at 16,000 kph from the earth's rotation. The North/South Pole is moving zero.

(The planet itself is moving faster than that around the sun, and the solar system is also moving, but those last two won't matter for inter-Earth ports).

The majority of places that humans enhabit will probably have at least 8,000 kph rotational momentum.

So, port to the other side of the Earth (Like from America to Europe) and all of a sudden you are moving 8 thousand kph one way, and everything else is moving 8 the other. SPLAT.

(And yes, I know that much of Europe is close enough to the pole that maybe it is less than 8K kph, and that the momentum differental between America & Europe isn't exactly opposite, but even with exact figures the result would still be lots of SPLAT).

[Finbar]

When me and Datsun started playing with teleportation physics, it became real clear real quick that without relative momentum at work, a teleporter would be seriously screwed.

Essentially, without relative momentum the teleporter would not be connected in any way to the local planet's momentum. Also, without the ability to plot relative distances, the teleporter wouldn't even be on the planet...

Relative distances: You need to realize that a time machine also has to be able to move in space; otherwise, if I time-traveled to WWII, I would be there time-wise, but I would be right where I started, which is close to 60 ly from Earth. (Not only does the Earth travel 1800 kph at the equator, it also travels around the sun, and with the galaxy; the galaxy alone is travelling at near-light speeds.)

For a teleporter not worried about relative distances, let's say he travels just one mile. By the time he 'ports back in, at one real mile from his original position, the earth is a couple of light seconds from it's original position (it's been moving while he teleported; the Earth doesn't stay still for even a nova...). But, if he ported one relative mile, he is one mile on the Earth's surface from where he teleported.

Relative Momentum: Real distance (with Adaptation) isn't a big worry. But relative momentum is. Earth is going at 1760 kph at the equator (did some quick math). Now, at around Canada (45 degree Lat (for the sake of argument), that's close to 900 kph. If I teleport in, assuming relative distances, if anything so much as grazes me (down to a stalk of grass), I'm so much bloody toast (lovely image ::crazy ::smiley10 ). (Explains why Nightcrawler usually teleports above the ground... ::teleport)

(For more discussion check out Vindicator in the Official Marvel Handbook, '80's edition..)

The basic point here is that both momentum and distance need to be relative for teleportation to work. It's just on what scale, and I'd advise going for as small a scale as possible...

FR

[Asbjørn]

... or like nightcrawler where momentum, direction and location are all a factor of whim - which is a monster power really ; P

...but so incredibly cool.... ::cool

Nightcrawler would have a serious amount of quantum points, though, at least as portrayed in the opening scene of X2. I bet he ports about 50 times during that scene.

The reason why i assumed things about momentum is that a porter is capable of changing his direction, and in combat would be able to port in the middle of an attack to let it come as a complete surprise from the rear. There's a fine line between a punch and a flying kick in that matter.

Er.. did anyone understand that?

[Finbar]

A little thing like direction I wasn't even worrying about.... ::rolleyes

Sorry...I would rule that you can change direction in mid-'port if you wanted to...But it would depend on you making the roll in the first place...

FR

[knave]

If that's the case then all earth needs is one warper from Eden - fire some near light speed ravioli tins into a warp gate opening in front of the ark and we have the world's biggest ever anti-climax ; P

-knave

[Bahamut810]

How about we just end this on a simple note...The GM said you keep your momentum...and as the rules say that you are immune to getting killed by your own powers...you dont have to worry about speed and stuff like that.

[Finbar]

Knave: NOT THE RAVIOLI! ::crazy

Bahamut: But...that would be too easy! ::sneaky2

FR

[Dormammu]

A little question:

You´re teleporting to a point. This means you´re going to a specific location, and will live under those conditions. You teleport yourselve to the relative point under his relative, coresponding influences.

You might have to compensate for lack of oxygen within that location or something, but not for things defining the location in "greater Physics/Sciences". Like dimensions, Gravity, Speed of movement. (position in space-time. and the likes.)

The speed of movement point is the mootest as everything is moving. ALWAYS.

Ah and it takes our solar system 250´000´000´000 years to complete a turn around the center of our galaxy. this is pretty fast, considering how many light years this is. The bigger things get, the faster they move.

[Asbjørn]

Er.... what is the question?

[knave]

How about we just end this on a simple note...The GM said you keep your momentum...and as the rules say that you are immune to getting killed by your own powers...you dont have to worry about speed and stuff like that.

Well... If you want to do something 'simple' like that then it would possibly behoove you to see what the GM actually said - which was:

In Aberrant I prefer to use the old Nightcrawler physics - momentum is maintained during Teleport. So yes, if a Nova 'ports into a car going 100 kph, he's hit by a 100 kph impact (just like if he'd stepped in front of the thing, but with cushions...  ). If he wants to 'port to Mars, his best bet is to port into space near Mars (less stuff to impact against in space), & use a different power (like Flight) to change his momentum to match the planet, before doing anything else.

Warp, as a 'doorway', is slightly different, & easier, to work out. Momentum is maintained when a Warp is entered, just the location of the character is changed to the other side - the Warp's 'exit point' has already done all the hard work in matching planetary rotation & all that stuff so, to the character, he just carries on moving as normal.

So... regardless of the rules saying you can't be hurt by your own powers in this game you can be if you aren't careful. Which was the point of the questions I asked.

-Knave

[Asbjørn]

Speaking of teleport...

Using attunement you can bring with you a certain amount of extra stuff. Clothing, equipment, some company... What I'm wondering is: Can you choose exactly what to bring along? Say I'm fighting this guy who has a shitload of armor and weapons, and I'd prefer if he didn't. Could I port just him and not his equipment? Would I have to touch bare skin to do that? Or is it a question of will vs will?

[Finbar]

I'd say that was okay, as long as you hit the guy (at least the outer layer), and backed it with a Quantum roll (to use your ability against a specific part, in this case, the guy himself).

The Will vs. Will would apply only for psionic teleportation (which this isn't), and given the number of powers that only require a touch to happen, I don't see it being necessary. Also, "Affect Others" doesn't apply here because you're both teleporting to the same spot. However, if he was attuned to his equipment, it would come with him...

FR

[Archer21]

Let's also not forget that unless the teleporter himself has Attuned his clothing, he's showing up at Point B in his birthday suit. ::blush

[Alex Green]

I'm pretty sure that all powers can be resisted. Here we would be talking about a willpower roll, and you would have to be making a combat teleport (unless he is tied up or unconscious or something).

And as was said eariler, if he has attuned stuff to him, then it will be going with him.

On the other hand, a combat teleport can pretty easily put someone a couple of hundred meters in the air.

[ProfPotts]

Ok, having read these threads I guess I better clear some stuff up before there's a nasty in-game backlash. I'll stick to rules, since my physics clearly sucks...

When I refered to 'Nightcrawler physics' I meant as classically portrayed in the comics (&, I believe, the cartoons), not the movie. There are several times when Nightcrawler gets into trouble because he can't just 'port from a speeding jet to the ground - he'd get hit by the impact just like if he'd jumped out of a car moving at that speed.

It's true that the rules state that "All novas are immune to all effects of their own powers..." (p.178). However, this is subject to a lot of interpretation (since, taken literally, it means that powers like Armour have zero effect, & a Nova Teleporter can't actually Teleport himself... ::confused ). Based on various examples in the books, we take this to mean that Novas aren't subject to crappy side-effects from their powers (like a structural collapse in the huge thing a Mega-Str Nova is lifting).

So, a Nova Teleporter doesn't end up in space, or being chopped to pieces by blades of grass (that last one needs an examination of the relative material strengths of grass & Novas, but that's a case for a different thread...). However, I see no reason why he should be immune to momentum related impacts (like falling from a great height, or 'porting inside a speeding car) - these events aren't produced by his powers, they're based on outside events.

A Nova who runs into a brick wall at Hyperspeed isn't immune to the impact just because his own power got him there - but he is immune to the friction he'd generate whilst running at that speed, & takes no damage from incidental debris (grass, twigs, etc.) he may impact along the way. The same sort of 'game logic' or 'comic logic' should apply equally to a Teleporter - he can 'port to the other side of the planet without generating massive amounts of momentum, but he'll still have the momentum he started with (if, say, he was falling at the time) when he arrives. To actually shed momentum would require another power (such as Flight, or Momentum Control - from the APG, p. 116).

My own 'porting Mars example was really bad, I know - yes you could 'port to the surface of Mars without building up huge amounts of astro-mechanically inspired momentum, but if you were speeding along at Hyperspeed when you 'ported, you'd still be moving that fast when you arrived. You'd also need really good eyesight to avoid the cumulative blind teleport & distance difficulty penalties - & end up hitting a solid structure - hence it's safer to 'port into space.

1) It's canon, not cannon....It can be an explosive game, but sheesh.

Ah yes, the Spelling Nazis are out in force again I see. Well, I'm sure that this post has plenty of errors too - some more than a single key-stroke's worth I'd wager. Still, I hope that everyone can understand the points I'm trying to get across, despite my obviously poor command of the English language. ::sarcasm ::wink ::tongue

[ProfPotts]

I've been thinking about the Attunement / Teleport attack combo' thing:

In theory it's possible, but (as noted earlier) pretty much every power / attack can be resisted in some way - either by Willpower if it effects the target's mind, or by Resistance if it effects his body. The closest power I can see is Disimmunize (Teragen p.127) - it alters the target's power immunity make-up (which is pretty much what Attunement does too). The roll for Disimmunize is Intelligence + power rating Vs Willpower, so I guess the roll for a 'forced Attunement' should be Intelligence + Attunment Vs Willpower.

I'd also agree with the earlier point that, if targeting a fellow Nova who also has Attuned equipment, then the Teleport 'attacker' can't pick & choose what goes & what stays - it's all or nothing.

Without Combat Teleport or extra actions of some kind you're going to have some nasty split dice pools, you have to go where your 'target' goes (you can't Teleport something else & not yourself), & the Attunement costs a QP (on top of the cost of the 'port itself) - but it's still a pretty clever use of Attunement!

[Dormammu]

It´s more of a matter wether you can attune it or not. How much would the guy in armor weigh? To much for your attunement? sorry. Another question is : Has the guy attuned his armor? If he has, there is no way for you to split them.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I think the weight allowance for attunement is pathetic, when I ran a session of it I told my players to bump their weight allowances up a notch, a pc with 5 attunement could attune 200kg. That's right they could actually take another character along for the ride, since most of them weighed 120kg and up.

[Finbar]

Sorry, Prof. Potts: It was too good of a pun to pass up ::cool ...Given that I'm notorious IRL re: spelling, I think I'm holding myself in well ::tongue ...

That said; When did Nightcrawler ever have a problem teleporting onto a moving object? His trademark "get on the plane" move was to 'port aboard, and he's done it a number of times (safely) both in X-Men and X-Calibur...Is it possible that this was just after the Mutant Massacre, when he was having a number of problems teleporting? 'Sides that, he is one of the few teleporters to show up with any real regularity; wish there were more 'porters in groups ::confused ...

(Which of course brings up an interesting question: Would a strobed 'porter have issues re: momentum?)

The other problem is, of course, the implied immunity to bad effects of powers (why wouldn't teleportation have matched momentums on re-entry?). If I don't have to worry about the planet smacking me, why should I need to worry about a plane seat smacking me?

Also, going back to Nightcrawler; he's actually stopped a fall by 'porting to the bottom of the fall, counting on his teleportation to shunt the gained momentum. (He has had a problem with this, but that's because he "came in" too high.) Why should a teleporter need to worry about gained momentum when he is essentially a brand-new

object.

Read: Teleporation is usually a break-down (a la Star Trek) or shifting through a dimension with its own rules (a la Nightcrawler); in the first case it wouldn't apply to the recreated object, and in the second it could be assumed that the 'porter took advantage of the dimension to disperse the momentum. In short, no momentum on re-entry...

Also, Larry Niven has an article re: teleporting; have you happened to read it (it's in his "Myriad Ways" book, an interesting compilation of essays and stories)?

[ProfPotts]

That said; When did Nightcrawler ever have a problem teleporting onto a moving object? His trademark \"get on the plane\" move was to 'port aboard, and he's done it a number of times (safely) both in X-Men and X-Calibur...Is it possible that this was just after the Mutant Massacre, when he was having a number of problems teleporting? 'Sides that, he is one of the few teleporters to show up with any real regularity; wish there were more 'porters in groups  ...

Dude, Nightcrawler tends to 'port onto planes when they're stationary...

His powers have never changed his momentum, they've always worked that way - no mutant massacre necessary.

To quote The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:

\"Nightcrawler's momentum is retained throughout the process of teleportation: he arrives with whatever moment of inertia he left with. For example, if he were falling from a great height, he could not teleport himself towards the ground in order to save himself; he would land with the same velocity that he teleported with.\"

Does that clear it up for you re-Nightcrawler?

The other problem is, of course, the implied immunity to bad effects of powers (why wouldn't teleportation have matched momentums on re-entry?). If I don't have to worry about the planet smacking me, why should I need to worry about a plane seat smacking me?

Immunity to the bad effects of one's own powers doesn't grant immunity to outside forces. If a Hyperspeed runner runs into a brick wall he takes impact damage - his power immunity doesn't protect him - why should the Teleporter be any different?

Again, Aberrant & Trinity 'porters work in very different ways. Momentum control is an important part of a Psion 'porter's abilities (specifically the 5th dot of Translocation allows total control over one's momentum). As the TPG points out, the momentum control aspect of a Psion's 'porting powers grants a huge number of other potential uses - many of which simulate other 'powers' (in an Aberrant sense). For example (TPG p.205) Stutter Jump simulates Flight, Wall Walking simulates Bodymodification - Adhesive Grip, Ramming Speed simulates a Hyperspeed Ram attack, etc, etc.. This is all well & good for Psions (who, compared to Novas, are generally more versitile, even if their overall raw power levels are less), but would be a huge twink for a Nova!

You shouldn't be able to take a power like Teleport & use the special effects to claim a host of other powers you didn't pay for. If a Nova 'porter could 'set his momentum', then why ever buy Hyperspeed? Just buy a single dot of Teleport & 'port half an inch to your left, setting your momentum to whatever you want (hey, go crazy - set it to 1% lightspeed & knock down cities as you hurtle past - don't worry, you're a Nova, it won't hurt you - you're immune to your own powers ::tongue ). That's just insane ::crazy . The same problems aren't going to crop-up for even a powerful Psion - as the Psion has no way to survive traveling at 1% lightspeed outside of a vessel of some kind.

As for why you don't impact the planet as it shoots past on it's galactic course - why doesn't the guy with Flight? He can 'stop himself in mid-air', right? Why doesn't the planet hit him? Same reason it doesn't hit the Teleporter - it'd be silly. ::wink

[Finbar]

Sorry about that...Something else, BTW:

Nightcrawler's powers automatically displace liquids and gases when he arrives in the course of a teleportation. Nightcrawler's momentum is retained throughout the process of teleportation: he arrives with whatever amount of inertia he left with. For example, if he were falling from a great height, he could not teleport himself towards the ground in order to save himself; he would land with the same velocity that he teleported with. He can subtract this inertia by teleporting short distances upwards (as though taking two steps back for every one forward).

Neat site....Marvel Directory...

Obligatory: I hate apologizing, but I hate being wrong more...

Also: Setting Momentum...Huh? Even a psi-porter can only set his momentum to zero...The other effects you have listed (such as the 1% ls) simply don't exist...Besides, all I'm trying to do is teleport onto a moving plane ::bigsmile ...

Also, by using Flight, Teleport, and Clone, an abbie can do anything a teleporter with Translocation and Transmassion can do (except the the partial 'port; EW! ::crazy ).

Please note the difference between freeform teleporting and Stellar Frontiers; a 'porter gains Bilocality at five dots, not Wall Walking (as per the TPG; there's some minor discrepancies with almost all the aptitudes). Basically, they're two different animals, and not everyone uses the freeform style (and with good justification, in some cases)...

FR

[ProfPotts]

Also: Setting Momentum...Huh? Even a psi-porter can only set his momentum to zero...The other effects you have listed (such as the 1% ls) simply don't exist...Besides, all I'm trying to do is teleport onto a moving plane  ...

Translocation 5 specifically allows absolute control over one's momentum - so yes, those effects do exist (in theory - in practice you'd need a lot of successes on your FreeForm roll to hit 1% lightspeed... ::crazy ).

Plus, if you 'port inside a car going 100 kph & are yourself now also going 100 kph you have set your momentum - to 100 kph. How far does that effect extend? Does it work if you 'port onto the roof of the car? How about if you port a few metres ahead of the car? If not - why not? What if you 'port into a convertable - you're both 'outside' & 'inside' at the same time - does your momentum match or not? Or is your momentum measured only from where your ass is sitting? ::tongue

The point is that adding 'free' momentum effects to Teleport increases it's power greatly, & implies many extra effects that a smart player will not miss.

Also, by using Flight, Teleport, and Clone, an abbie can do anything a teleporter with Translocation and Transmassion can do (except the the partial 'port; EW!  ).

Exactly my point - & that 'abbie' should have to buy them all as seperate powers - not get them 'free' as part of Teleport.

Please note the difference between freeform teleporting and Stellar Frontiers; a 'porter gains Bilocality at five dots, not Wall Walking (as per the TPG; there's some minor discrepancies with almost all the aptitudes). Basically, they're two different animals, and not everyone uses the freeform style (and with good justification, in some cases)...

Yes, I know the differences, but even in the TPG you can use Bilocality at 5 dots - you can just do much more besides (kinda' the point of FreeForm). Whether you use those rules or not is irrelevant to the discussion - they exist, & are good examples of what teleporting can be used for if you allow an element of momentum control to be 'built-in'.