Aberrant RPG - Desolidification

[Finbar]

Have fun with these questions ::confused :

1) At three dots of DC (D), I cannot affect the tangible world. Can I still fire off a q-bolt or use a force field? How about at 4 dots (where energy is only half-effect) or five dots (no effect from energy)? Can I do like Shadowcat and disrupt machines ::bigsmile ?

2) How about other desolidified characters? Can I affect normally?

3) Could I create an extra (like "Effects Real World") so I could kill with my claws while desolidified? ::devil

Thanks! ::blush

FR

[Bahamut810]

Have fun with these questions ::confused :

1) At three dots of DC (D), I cannot affect the tangible world. Can I still fire off a q-bolt or use a force field? How about at 4 dots (where energy is only half-effect) or five dots (no effect from energy)? Can I do like Shadowcat and disrupt machines ::bigsmile ?

2) How about other desolidified characters? Can I affect normally?

3) Could I create an extra (like "Effects Real World") so I could kill with my claws while desolidified?  ::devil

Thanks! ::blush

FR

1. at 3 dots you cannot physically affect anything at all...it dosent say you cant use energy on other people though. At 5 dots you can make body parts tangable (i.e. hand) you can affect people wiht your claws...but you *do* become tangable. You need to take a power to disrupt machines though.

2.Other people like that...it would depend on your GM and your defination of your power. If you send your physical body into the 4th dimention...you wont affect someone who becomes a ghost...unless the GM says so.

3.no...no...no...not only no but heck no...thats worse then shooting Q bolts at people while like htat

[ProfPotts]

"While intangible the character cannot affect the tangible world in any way" (p.189)

This seems pretty self-explanatory. So:

1) At three dots of DC (D), I cannot affect the tangible world. Can I still fire off a q-bolt or use a force field?

Not in such a way as to affect anything that isn't also intangible. You can fire a Q-Bolt or spark up a FF, but they'd do nothing to a tangible character. They'd work normally vs an intangible character though.

How about at 4 dots (where energy is only half-effect) or five dots (no effect from energy)? Can I do like Shadowcat and disrupt machines  ?

Still no, even at 5 dots (you can make a foot solid & kick someone, but can't make your Q-Bolt 'solid'). The Shadowcat question is a joke, right? ::sly

2) How about other desolidified characters? Can I affect normally?

You can affect characters that aren't 'tangible' yes. To affect 'desolid' characters you'd have to be playing Champions... ::tongue

3) Could I create an extra (like \"Effects Real World\") so I could kill with my claws while desolidified?

In theory you can create any Extra you want, you then have to convince your ST to allow it... ::wink On the other hand you could just use the Affects Others Extra from the book & cause your victim to become something that isn't classed as 'tangible'. Even better, at 5 dots with Affects Others, you can make part of your victim (e.g his heart or brain) intangible & just attack that. ::devil

[Finbar]

Actually, the Shadowcat question is a good case-in-point question: She's desolid, but she's affecting the real world. The basic problem, for which I'm using her as an example, is that the power makes a big deal re: physical vs. energy attacks. Even the examples given in the book (re: tangible world) are all physical. A key one is that it points out you can't fire a gun; why point out you can't use a firearm, but not say anything about q-bolts, which are more relevant?

Also, you can be affected (until 5 dots) by energy attacks; why shouldn't you be able to use them, at least to some degree? Otherwise, DC (D) (Affects Others) becomes a great attack; it's going to take at least a round or two for the person to figure out that's he's desolid, so I've got that time to nail him with everything I've got knowing that none of his attacks are going to nail me.

If I can overcome his Resistance, I've got immunity to all of his non-mental attacks, but I can hit him with all of my mental and energy attacks. There's just something not right about that...

Which of course brings up Quantum-moodifier attacks. like Disrupt, Q-Leech and Q-Imprint. Would they effect a desolidified character, as they target the powers and qunatum itself, or would they be affected as energy attacks are? Or even as physical attacks (Quantum Imprint requires a touch!)...

Yeah, I love this power SO much ::sneaky2 ...

FR

[Alex Green]

The Q affecting powers would work normally (although "touching" may be a bit of a challenge).

I believe there is a note in the DD power description that states that the decrease of effect works both ways. I.e. a M-Str character with DD 2 will be doing only half damage. This raises the charming idea of him buying Claws and defining them as an energy attack.

Shadowcat is probably buildable, if you define her attack as a no-range CyberK technique. CyberK probably uses similar rules to mental attacks, thus getting around the restrictions.

Special note to those DD=5 characters. Yes, you can turn your hand solid and fire off that q-bolt. And yes, that hand is now subject to attack. Specifically, -2 succ to hit.

[ProfPotts]

That's not true. There's a difference between what we think the rules say (&, perhaps, what they should say) & what they do say. What that do say is:

"While intangible the character cannot affect the tangible world in any way" (p.189)

Get the "... in any way..." bit? That's the rules. They may be daft, naturally, but that's a different (& probably more legitimate) question.

So, again, Quantum manipulating attacks would affect an intangible character based on that attack's special effect (physical, energy, or psychic), but the intangible guy with those types of attacks couldn't affect the tangible world with them (even if part of his body was tangible). That's the rules as written. They make very little logical sense, but are mostly written for game-balance reasons.

The obvious house-rule on this would be that the intangible character can affect the tangible world as much as it can affect him - if he takes half damage from energy then his own energy does half damage, etc.. This makes a lot more sense than the rules as written (& follows the logic of the two-dot Density Control - Decrease description).

[knave]

I think there is some scope for interpretation here... For example - If you buy this power as part of Bodymorph and your character turns into "fire" for example - then it makes sense for the character to be completely impervious to any attack that doesn't smother his oxygen supply - but is still be able to burn people whilst in that state.

So - if you apply that same principle to the base power Density Decrease - you could tailor it by making it possible to take damage from a particular category of attack in exchange for the ability to fire a particular power from that state...

I also feel the possibility of having a Density Decrease 5 / Telepathic Domination 5 character is quite chilling as well as being within the rules. Eeek! ::devilangel

[Finbar]

but the intangible guy with those types of attacks couldn't affect the tangible world with them (even if part of his body was tangible).

Actually, this is against what the rules say (\"characters may take an action to turn parts of her body solid, enabling her to attack with a solidified fist\"); if I can turn tangible and hit with a solid fist, why can't I throw a q-bolt?

Another tack....

DC(D)2 reduces the damage taken by physical attacks by half;

corrrespondingly, the chracter's own attacks are also cut in

half.

At DC(D)3, a character is immune to physical attacks, but energy attacks still affect the character at full strength;

At DC (D)4, the character takes only half damage from energy attacks;

At DC (D)5, the character is unaffected by energy attacks;

Now, as the power makes a distinction between physical attacks and energy attacks (basically, energy damage trails physical damage by two dots), wouldn't it make sense that the damage done by a character using energy attacks would follow the amount damage he takes?

\"While intangible the character cannot affect the tangible world in any way\" (p.189)

So that means that the character can't use any attack, mental ones included? (If he uses a mental attack successfully, he effects something tangible...)

Which means that, with the Affects Other extra, DC (D) is so nifty...I can hit him with any non-physical attack (but my q-bolts and mental attacks are good), and all he can do is run and soak....I just have to drop Resistance rolls, and anyone is mine!

This power needs some serious errata...You are supposed to get +1 didge/dot, but you only get +3 Dodge at 4 and 5 dots...then there's the movement issue (I'm assuming normal movement applies)...

And it does not help that this has shown up again on the White Wolf boards...ARGH!

FR

[ProfPotts]

if I can turn tangible and hit with a solid fist, why can't I throw a q-bolt?

Because a Q-Bolt isn't a body part.

wouldn't it make sense that the damage done by a character using energy attacks would follow the amount damage he takes?

Of course it would make sense, hence:

The obvious house-rule on this would be that the intangible character can affect the tangible world as much as it can affect him - if he takes half damage from energy then his own energy does half damage, etc.. This makes a lot more sense than the rules as written (& follows the logic of the two-dot Density Control - Decrease description).

I'm just playing devils advocate here - I agree that the rules as they stand don't make sense & should be re-interpreted. I was simply pointing out what the rules as they stand actually are (to answer the questions originally posted).

[Finbar]

"House rules" don't apply in this case. We're talking about some rules interpretation issues based on some rules that need some serious errata. It's a good way to hedge, but I think that there are enough issues that looking at from different persepctives will give ST's a better feel for getting a better rules interpretation on it.

But that's just me...

FR

[Alex Green]

That's not true. There's a difference between what we think the rules say (&, perhaps, what they should say) & what they do say.

Point.

...Quantum manipulating attacks would affect an intangible character based on that attack's special effect (physical, energy, or psychic), but the intangible guy with those types of attacks couldn't affect the tangible world with them (even if part of his body was tangible). That's the rules as written. They make very little logical sense, but are mostly written for game-balance reasons.

Maybe it is just me, but Quantum manipulating powers seem less dependant on special effects. My book isn't handy, but I'd feel comfortable saying that those powers don't need special effects and can effect Quantum directly. Meaning that they by pass DD, just like the mental powers do.

I think we are talking about "Disrupt" & "Q-Leech" since the others need contact.

[ezekiel]

Could the intangible character use mental blast? (I think so) Perfect combo! Especially since it'd go right through those impenetrable force fields and hyper-dense characters...

[Reighnhell]

The Density Decrease power's effect only extend to the Nova's physical body. A Nova who is intagible compromises their capability to injure someone with their body. I rule it perfectly legal to use a work-around that doesn't rely on having a physical body to use. Mental abilities and Q-Bolt being the most likely. I do like the idea of " you can effect something only as much as it could effect you", and will probably implement it in my games.

[Alex Green]

Mental abilities, sure. Q-bolt, probably not.

Actually, I don't think anyone has mentioned the combo of DD plus Social abilities.

[Psilord]

*I would think that as the PC decreased in density he would loose the ability to channel energy attacks like Q-bolts, in like proportion. If you take only half damage from energy attacks then you can cause only half damage with them, since the rest of your energy was to dispersed to be projected hamfully. When you become immune to energy damage you also loose the capability to sucessfully manifest and channel energy into attacks.

*I personally wouldn't allow one non-corporeal character to affect another with physical or energy attacks that they have become immune to. Shine the beams from two flashlights into the same area and they don't push each other out of the way, the exist in the same space. Two such beings couldn't physically touch each other.

Energy attacks between to ghosting characters would be a different matter. Should one still be fully suceptible to energy it would take full damage possible from the energy attacks of the other (even if that attack was already reduced by half for DC-D 4 on the attacker). Should both be at 4 the the target would risk taking only 1/4 damage.

*I would allow a Shadowcat like ability under certian circumstances: DC-D 5 only, for turning parts tangible to allow for the actual disruption. However, I would rule that the character would take a comparable amount of physical damage from having those parts partially disintegrated by being left behind in the object. The damage wouldn't appear as massive damge, but more like bruising and loss of mass in the bones and tisues.

Also, the character would risk energy damage (1/2) as well, the tangible parts acting as conductors for the rest of the body (in effect the character would have its DC-D reduced to 4 for purposes of energy contained within the object only while performing the maneuver).

psilord

[Ayre el KaBeer]

It says you can make a hand tangible so you can strike, make that same hand tangible point your finger and fire off a Quantum Bolt or whatever it's simple and with no changes to the rule.