Trinity RPG - Quantakinetics (might not be new for some)

[Ayre el KaBeer]

hehehe phoenix, i just re-read my last post and you're right it makes no sense but either way im going to stick to it because i can't be bothered pulling out the old physics books and quoting it. ::closedeyes

[Adam]

However, gravity is a never-ending supply of energy, isn't it? It will always cause things to fall, as well as counteract any attempts to prevent or reverse this. Gravity provides kinetic energy to objects in its vicinity. My question is: where does this energy come from? Matter causes it, yes, but the matter is not transformed (like the Sun) in the process. It will never \"run out.\"

Wow! What a great question.

I had a long, mostly incomprehensible overview of gravity as understood by General Relativity (which does not really consider it a "force" at all, but rather a curvature in space-time caused by mass), and Quantum Physics (which says the force of gravity is conducted by the "graviton" particle, which may be produced by the acceleration of objects. Since everything is spinning, everything would produce these graviton waves/particles, and the larger the mass obviously the more gravitons would be produced.), and theory of Supersymmerty (which is like quantum physics, but stipulates that to get the math to work, we have to consider that all mass has a massive energy shadow, and all energy has a mass shadow; and the interacions of these shadows create gravitons).

I wish I had some information for you on how String Theory approaches gravity (because I hear it fits perfectly in that model), so maybe when I understand String Theory I will post it or something (just don't hold your breath).

Anyway, my original post got lost; so, I take it as a divine sign and instead point you here: Physics Van Outreach Program

They have a dedicated section on gravity and motion, and should be much better then I at explaining it.

While you are there, maybe you shoudl ask them about how magnets (not electromagnets) can produce kinetic energy from seemingly nothing. ::crazy

Anyway, if/when you get an answer, would you be so kind as to post a link to it here? Thanks Alistaire (or whoever)!

-Will.

[Alistaire]

try looking at it like a type of radiadtion (it's not, but anyway) emitted by all mass, so the greater the mass the greater the field of radiation, sort of like everything has an electric field;

Yes, I can look at it that way, but it still doesn't tell me where the energy comes from. If an atom emits an amount of EM radiation, it has to give up that energy from somewhere. Typically this is from an electron jumping from an energetic state (caused by the previous absorbtion of an equal amount of energy, or portion thereof), to a lower state. Thus the energy entered the electron form somewhere, was stored, and later left. Law of conservation solved. In nuclear radiation, a neutron is emitted (or alpha particle, beta, or gamma radiation aka high energy photon, see last example), changing not only the nuclear configuration of the atom, but also it's mass (as in the case of the particle emmisions). This is why carbon dating works (checking the difference in these things) and why all radio active things eventually stop being so (well, virtually anyway).

Gravity, though, does not change the matter that \"emits\" or generates it. No change in state, temperature, mass, nothing. You can fling satellites past Jupiter all you want an Jupiter won't even notice, save for an imperceptible but eventual change in it's own velocity. Heck, two equal masses objects approaching each other but don't collide (they just whip around each other like the satellite and Jupiter) will accelerate each other's velocities (and change their directions). Thus more kinetic energy form nowhere.

For this law to work you have to look at it from a formula perspective. Take my first example above (in this message). Hi energy atom = low energy atom + raditation. The measured energy or energy + mass will be the same. With gravity, there is an unexplained x-factor that literally produces energy. Where does this energy come from, if not the energy or mass contained in an atom (since it loses neither)?

what's causing it \"ATOMS!\"

I know what's causing it, I want to know where the extra energy comes from.

Take my last two body example. Two bodies with kinetic energy = X at the start. By the end they are going, say, twice as fast each, therefor containing 2X kinetic energy each. With no other influences, and their masses unchanged, they now together contain twice the energy they entered with. Where is it from?!?

I don't think it counts as energy unless it involves movement of some sort. Potential energy does involve movement when it turns to kinetic. So if we accept that as our definition of energy (and I'm sure that there's more to it than that - anyone with knowledge about science, please enlighten us laymen) various forms of pressure aren't energy because they are cancelled out. The point is that once all these forces find a happy medium, which there always is, they stay there until some other force takes effect.

Well, um, that's not the definition of energy I'm using at all... sorry. I'm not sure how to describe it right now (since this whole thing is leading to far bigger issues inside my head I think humans can't deal with and it's driving me nuts but that's ok because run-on sentances are fun don't you think because I sure do oh boy aren't we having fun now?), but I can give examples. EM raditation (light, IR, UV, etc.) is energy. Kinetic, and heat, are energy. Potential I don't accept as energy because it is merely a convenience. Take this example. The one most people use is picking up a ball. They see it as you add kinetic energy to the ball, and the whole while it gets stored in the ball as potential energy, which is then released when you drop it. This isn't what happens. Gravity is applying force to the ball at all times equal to 1G. You suddenly apply >1G force to the ball (newtons, whatever). Once you pass 1G the ball lifts, and accepts the extra energy as kinetic, which it uses to move, but gravity is still trying to stop it. Once you quit applying that force, stop you hand, your force now equals 1G. However, can you keep the ball there forever? You get tired, eventually. Why? You are supplying energy to resist the pull of gravity, like you would if you were resisting another person. Thus, if you were to lower the ball, it's kinetic energy that it uses for movement has to be supplied somewhere, and it comes from the gravities force. Thus energy is required to exert force, so that it can be converted into another form of energy.

Another quick example. Before your muscles can produce force to make your arms move (with kinetic energy), they require an energy source, that of chemical energy (that gets used up) stored in the cells. This of course comes from food, etc. etc. The whole thing can be traced back. Energy -> force -> energy. Gravity is a force that creates movement. Where does it's energy come from?

I had a long, mostly incomprehensible overview of gravity as understood by General Relativity (which does not really consider it a \"force\" at all, but rather a curvature in space-time caused by mass)

This is a model to explain gravity's behaviour and relationship with affected mass, but does not explain where the energy comes from. Handy, but not a total answer.

and Quantum Physics (which says the force of gravity is conducted by the \"graviton\" particle, which may be produced by the acceleration of objects...

Again, an attempt to describe it's behaviour, not it's energy source. Gravitons may convey the energy to something, but this is the mechanism of transaction, not the source, or even the mechanism behind the source. Otherwise, why doesn't it run out f gravitons? Either as mass or energy? It keeps both yet makes other things go faster? Motion that could later be converted into heat, and then electricity? This is (partly) why hydroelectric works.

I know how this car moves, now I want to know where it gets its gas. ::smile

Anyway, my original post got lost; so, I take it as a divine sign and instead point you here: Physics Van Outreach Program

I will do that sir, just not right now. As I mentioned in another post, I should not really bu up right now (it is 7:15 in the morning after having run a Trinity game...). I'll let you know what I think once I see it. I'm sure that I gave everyone enough to chew on for tonight anyway. Are we having fun yet? ::wacko ::wink

While you are there, maybe you shoudl ask them about how magnets (not electromagnets) can produce kinetic energy from seemingly nothing.

Good call. This is another one that gets me, but I usually leave out for simplicity's sake. But yep, more energy for nothing. And why haven't we been able to make this into a limitless source of energy yet? (besides the oil companies, that is? Oh, that's it? Silly me!)

Now it's REALLY time for me to get to bed. Don't be surprised if none of this makes sense or isn't spell-checked because it turns out I'm really asleep. ::sleeping

[Ayre el KaBeer]

While you are there, maybe you shoudl ask them about how magnets (not electromagnets) can produce kinetic energy from seemingly nothing.

Good call. This is another one that gets me, but I usually leave out for simplicity's sake. But yep, more energy for nothing. And why haven't we been able to make this into a limitless source of energy yet? (besides the oil companies, that is? Oh, that's it? Silly me!)

But your forgetting that magnets do loose their power, i'm assuming like radio active decay. What if it is something like radiation and we haven't discovered what it's 'power source' is or if it even needs one.

Ok I have a quakpot theory that even I don't believe (yet), oh by the way when I use the word "ATOM" bare with me it's just a generalisation:

First some stuff we know...

Gravity comes from those pesky atoms right? The more of them you have the more gravity, we know that already... And gravity is the force with which an atom can influence the surrounding universe...

Now the crazy theory: What if Gravity is the negative result or a side effect to having matter where matter was never supposed to be? Before the BIG BANG there was nothing (apart from the initial primers ie. super star, weird particles, whatever, I don't know i wasn't there) in the (or this) universe, so maybe matter was never part of its mechanics, and the matter's presense imposed itself on the (can't think of a good word so... ::cringe) null universe/space leaving a permanent "shadow" that trails it.

::crazy Ghhh! I'm gonna get linched for talking out of my arse! but it kinda makes sense... well to me anyway ::lookaround .

[Tamoline]

Actually, I remember one theory is that if you add up all of the 'negative'* energy from the gravitic potential (resulting from the mass of the energy) and all of the 'positive' energy that they cancel out. But it has been some time since my degree and I couldn't say much more than that.

*The zero point of potential energy of an object is calculated when the object is infinitely far from every other object. As you bring it closer to an object with mass, it loses potential energy equal to the kinetic energy that it would have gained has it been dragged to that point by gravity (assuming no friction naturally).

The simplistic way to explain where this energy comes from, in answer to Alistaire is this: e = mc^2, right? As an object is accelerated by gravity some of it's rest mass is converted into kinetic energy. This kinetic energy can be converted into other forms. This is probably a fairly bad way of explaining it and has some holes, but it may do for an explanation.

God, I've forgotten too much of my degree. It's depressing. Admittedly, quantum mechanics was hardly favourite part.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Does this mean my theory has already been shot to hell?

[Tamoline]

Does this mean my theory has already been shot to hell?

I think it means that other scientists are thinking along the same lines, actually. Buggered if I know really.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

There may be more like me? ::crazy Oh, GOD NO!!! ::shocked

Run, for the love of all that is decent and holy!!!

[Alistaire]

Wow, thanks for the insightful posts guys! I haven't had this much academic (read: geeky) fun since high school! (it was a really geeky (read: academic) high school... ::tongue )

What if Gravity is the negative result or a side effect to having matter where matter was never supposed to be?

Actually I really like this theory, although it's pretty far out, and I'd have to consider it separate from my question. Personally, I'd want to compare and contrast this to the quantum physics idea that matter and energy can be looked at as \"ripples\" of space-time, like a ripple on water, which accounts for their wave aspects (both have 'em). This analogy (not explanation) can also be used to help describe matter's interaction with it's environment, which is simply a different state of... itself! Matter, energy, space-time, all one thing. And what is beyond space-time??? That's for a discussion even more far out than this one. ::hehe (although Erebus may recall my mentioning a book to him called Space-Time and Beyond by Fred Alan Wolf, perfect for this kind of stuff! With cartoons even!)

Actually, I remember one theory is that if you add up all of the 'negative'* energy from the gravitic potential (resulting from the mass of the energy) and all of the 'positive' energy that they cancel out.

Ok, you may have something there, but I need you to clarify what you mean by \"negative\" and \"positive\" energy, I'm not sure what you are referring to by them. ::confused

e = mc^2, right? As an object is accelerated by gravity some of it's rest mass is converted into kinetic energy. This kinetic energy can be converted into other forms.

Hey, this almost works, except for one tiny flaw I noticed. E=mc^2 states that an objects mass increases as its velocity increases (since c remains constant, if m goes up, so must e, right?) An odd phenomenon to be sure, but that's what special relativity is all about. That and time slowing down and your length decreasing. Imagine that: at 1.0 c, your an object with infinite mass, no length (2 dimensional), and time has stopped for you. I hope what's past that isn't worse, or we'll be stuck in the Solar system for a long time! ::smiley1

Plus, like my two equal body problem, in this case, both objects are accelerated by their mutual gravity, yet neither changes mass. Nice try though. At least you are understanding what my question is!

[phoenix]

Well, I'm over my head.

My explanation works for me; Alistaire, you aren't really asking where gravity comes from so much as where all energy and matter in the universe comes from. I'm told that Stephen Hawking has some good words to say on the subject, but I have not.

I hate that explanation of gravity where the objects in the universe are like objects on a mattress, and the really big ones cause a dent which other, smaller objects are pulled into by gravity. Right, so gravity is caused by gravi- wait.

I'm still in high school, so don't blame me for not having any idea what I'm talking about..

[Adam]

But your forgetting that magnets do loose their power, i'm assuming like radio active decay. What if it is something like radiation and we haven't discovered what it's 'power source' is or if it even needs one.

Actually, magnets are based on the use of the residual electromagnetic force. Electrons within the magnet polarize to one end (leaving the opposite end magnetically positive). The magnet does not \"lose\" it's power, per se; rather, the electrons eventually redistribute themselves.

That is why magnets only work on metals, because most metals have \"free electrons\" that can move around within the metal (which is also why they are electrically conductive). This is also the reason that metals that have come into contact with a strong magnetic field will become magnetic themselves afterward (their electrons have polorized).

What is of interest (to Alistaire, atleast) is that no \"particle\" (in the case of the electromagnetic force, a photon) is exchanged between the magnet and the attracted object. So, it would seem that force is applied from nothing.

I am not a physicist, so anything I say is likely to be misinformation. That said, I believe this attraction is called a residual electromagnetic force, and is simply part of the nature of energy within the universe- that particles of opposite charges attract. Physics can not explain \"why\" the universe behaves that way, it only quantifies that the universe does.

In standard physics, force is measured in vectors (x,y,z coordinate dircections), and thus is content to say that an equal amount of force is applied on the magnet by the attracted object as the magnet is applying on the object, and thus force cancels and is conserved.

For this to really make sense, let's do some math.

Force = mass x acceleration.

Magnetic objects attract eachother with equal force, thus

mass1 x acceleration1 = mass2 x acceleration2

From this we can see that the more massive object will have less acceleration applied against it. Thus your massive refrigerator does not come flying toward you as you approach it with a small magnet. On the other hand, if you place a small magnet and a paper clip on a table a few inches apart, seperated by a piece of wood, and then remove the piece of wood, you would see the magnet and the paper clip move toward each other and meet in the middle somewhere.

The same is also said of gravity. We jump and the earth pulls us back down. It seems the earth is applying a force on us downward and thus energy is not conserved. In actuality, we are also exerting the same amount of force on the earth to be pulled up toward us, but because the earth is so massive, there is no noticeable acceleration (movement). Thus, energy is actually conserved (mathematically).

That is how basic physics approaches magnetism and gravity.

Now the crazy theory: What if Gravity is the negative result or a side effect to having matter where matter was never supposed to be? Before the BIG BANG there was nothing (apart from the initial primers ie. super star, weird particles, whatever, I don't know i wasn't there) in the (or this) universe, so maybe matter was never part of its mechanics, and the matter's presense imposed itself on the (can't think of a good word so... ::cringe) null universe/space leaving a permanent \"shadow\" that trails it.

Interesting theory, Ayre. Before you go too far with it, you should check out these two websites that should help you understand some other interesting theories (like Einstein's and Newton's) about gravity.

Why Do Planets Have Gravity?

Does Gravity Cause Space to bend?

Read those explanations as a foundation, and then we can re-discuss your theory from there. ::unsure

Enjoy,

-Will.

[Psionycx]

Just to throw my two-cents in.

I don't think the powers are too far out. After all, the Chibs required extremely high latency, which by definition means that Quantakinetics are apt to be powerful. Consider that the Upeo can pretty much move a great deal more mass with their Aptitude than the Pyschokinetics can with their's. A higher latency minimum does seem to translate into a more powerful Aptitude.

That doesn't mean the Chibs would have been unstoppable. Remember that the order was not militant. Most Chibs were scientists, philosophers and even theologians. It is possible to possess enormous power and still not be very good at wielding it in a fight. Bhurano's eggheads would have been facing off against psions who had seen battle against aberrants. There were also only a couple hundred of them facing a combined force several times their number. And since Bhurano was under Doyen control, and the Doyen frankly wanted to get rid of the Chibs, the order would have been effectively leaderless, if not actively sabotaged by their own proxy.

From a scientific realism standpoint I think that saying that using Transmutation to create valuable matter is too "D&D". Chemists today in the real world have mastered the art of creating synthetic, high-grade diamond that is indistinguishable from natural stones except under the most rigorous testing. To say a Chib can't duplicate something mundane science can do seems odd. From an RPG point, perhaps the surviving rogue Chibs feed themselves by discreetly creating precious minerals to sell?

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Hey Psionycx welcome to the boards! ::bigsmile

And by the way good point!

[Tamoline]

OK, here I start delving slightly further into my hazy storehouse of physics knowledge. Bear with me.

Alistaire: As a mass travels 'deeper' within a gravitational field it loses potential energy, right? For sake of simplicity, the zero of potential of energy is placed at the point where the mass would be completely outside all other gravitational fields (ie at infinity). Hence within the universe all gravitational potentials are negative. Hence the 'negative energy' that I was speaking about. It's a bit like having a partly full jug of water, and calling the unfilled part full of negative water. Hope that helps!

E = mc^2 et al: Actually, the full equation is E^2 = m^2c^4 + p^2c^2, where p is the momentum of the body, and m is the rest mass of the object, as in its mass taken when the body is stationary. (In case you are interested, this is one of the reasons that solar sails work: although photons do not have a rest mass, they do have a momentum and hence deflecting them exerts a force on the sail). And, yes, the mass tending towards infinity as the object tends towards light speed is why an object with a rest mass can never reach light speed by physics as we know it. You'd need an infinite amount of energy to push it that fast. (Another interesting physics fact: did you know that light travels at light speed relative to you, no matter how fast you are moving. It's just the frequency that changes.)

Anyway, I believe the answer to your question is that both object would lose rest mass, which would be converted into kinetic energy, as they were accelerated. Does this help?

Erebus: your explanaton mostly fits (I think), but it is not energy that is conserved in these cases (though it would be) but momentum (velocity times mass).

[Finbar]

Of course, we are assuming that gravity even exists....

JS Bell (back in the 60's) pointed out to his students that if everything doubled in mass over a short period of time (say, 30 seconds), that all of the effects of gravity would be simulated be the resulting extra mass (you don't fall towards something; both you and it grow towards each other)...

Admittedly, it was more of a way to get them to think, but the implications would be fun to deal with...

FR

[Tamoline]

JS Bell (back in the 60's) pointed out to his students that if everything doubled in mass over a short period of time (say, 30 seconds), that all of the effects of gravity would be simulated be the resulting extra mass (you don't fall towards something; both you and it grow towards each other)...,,

Do you mean doubled in size? That might make more sense to my poor, beleaguered brain. OTOH, since when has physics made intuitive sense?

[Finbar]

Er...oops...Essentially doubled in size on all three axes (thus x8 mass...)

FR

[Tamoline]

Also, if I going through this correctly, it would only work if all objects were of the same density (assuming that the space between them was empty). As I understand this thought experiment, the 'acceleration' cause would be a function purely of size, rather than density (ie a black hole would have the same apparent gravity as a cream puff the same size).

BTW, I think that the mass of each object would have to stay the same, otherwise objects would become 8 times harder to move every 30 seconds (the whole F/mass = acceleration thing.)

Finally, this model doesn't work well with general (or special for that matter) relativity, I think.

Sorry for picking holes: it's my inner physicist . (The horror, the funky horror.) Nevertheless, it could be interesting to try and work out the ramifications.

[harlequin]

heya Psionycx, i like your point about the chibs. they never would have seen it coming, and likely wouldn't have managed to do much before the legions, orgotek, upeo, and ministry had them subdued or dead.

[Tamoline]

Brief thought, after having looked at the post that started this all off (OK, OK, so I'm a physics geek and I get sidetracked easily. Ooh, shiny!):

Transmutation 5: you can change the element of the object, but not the shape. I wonder what level this prohibition extends down to? Obviously it can move around protons and neutrons (assuming it doesn't create them extant. Which reminds me: has anyone thought that if you (say) transmute wood into gold, you will end up with a much smaller piece, assuming mass is constant. Given the shape changing prohibition, would this mean the resultant gold would be a minature copy, or would mass be added from psionic energy? Even if antimatter can't be created, if the mass is constant, you could make big explosions by using this, or at least big holes in things.)

Where was I? Oh yes. I was wondering if you could move around atoms and molecules. For instance, graphite and diamond have very different molecular structures. Both in turn are very different to the structure of a metal, say. So, if molecular rearrangement is not allowed, then you cannot turn iron into diamond (since the arrangement of the atoms of iron would not support this particular structure of carbon). But if you do allow it, where does it stop? If, for instance, you want to turn a blob of iron into a single carbon nanotube. That is certainly changing the shape on a macro scale, and hence forbidden. But forbidding it means that some rearrangments on a molecular scale are also forbidden.

Knotty.

My point (if I do have a point, and was not rambling for the sake of it)? I would make a ruling that either there was no molecular rearrangement (which would make making precious minerals hard: they are rarely valuable becuase of their base constituents. Elemental iron may be an exception to this rule. Is anyone else wondering if there was a chib on Eyrie?), or that you could change the shape of an object on a macro scale. After all, it isn't as though you can't have that power to get to this level. A possible third way would be making molecular rearrangement more expensive psi wise.

Sorry to have taken up your time ladies and gentlemen. I do hope there was something of interest there.

[phoenix]

Seems strange that psions with such kick-ass potential would devote themselves almost entirely to science. I would, in reality, expect something more like Orgotek, if not Fortune's Knights.

[Tamoline]

***************SPOILERS********************

Since Bhurano was possessed by a Doyen, and the quantakinetic order was made for a very specific purpose - to study this new mode, preferably under controlled conditions, it doesn't surprise me at all that the candidates selected were of a scientific bent. After all, the Bhurano contigency - destruction of the order - was something planned for from the very beginning by the Doyen. They are nothing if not paranoidly cautious. Kind of makes you wonder what contingencies they have built into the other orders. I can't believe that they wouldn't have done so.

Here's an idea: all psions are linked to their Prometheus chamber (as are the proxies, only they have a higher order access: that's why they can strip a psion of his abilities). Now imagine if there is a trigger that strips psions of their abilities, and at the same time mutates their cells to produce a super plague aimed at humanity (the Doyen are masters of biotech, after all). Able to accomplish two things at once. Why have some quantakinetics survived with powers intact? I can think of two reasons. 1) the Chamber was not completely destroyed and 2) the Quantakinetics have some ability to be able to shield themselves from this effect. Why did the Doyen not use this ability against the Chibs? If they revealed that they could effect the Orders on such a scale, it might turn their tools against them Far better to let the tools do it themselves, even if it is less efficient that way.

[Adam]

Wow. Lots of things to reply to. ::biggrin

First off, welcome aboard Psionycx. I'm new here myself.

About gravity, for all you physics affacianados out there, you have to check out this website on String Theory! It is super-cool!!!

M-Theory, the Theory formerly known as Strings

Use the pictures at the bottom of the page to navigate the site (it's not well designed).

About Chibs, I completely agree with Tamoline's breakdown of the situation. These people were chosen to be scientists, not soldiers. Also, they were following on the heels of the Aberrant War. Anyone using Quanta particles would be subject to extreme scrutinity and paranoia. It makes sense to me that these new Psions would try to redeem Quanta to the world by showing how benevolent (read: important to science) thier powers were. They may not even have dared to experiment with Quantakinesis as a weapon because 1.) fear of what may inadventently happen (418, anyone?), and 2.) fear of somehow causing Taint. After all, Taint and the Quanta/Psi relationship was not well understood back then (hehe, go read TFR: Noetics).

About Transmutation, the powers are general Freeform powers. To really make it work the Storyteller would have to come up with difficulty charts based on mass, phase changes, property changes, etc... It is likely that Psi (being the fundamental particle) is being converted to mass to offset the atomic/density change between the two elements. That the QK can not shape the material is utterly ludicrous, as is most likely there as a game balance to keep that level 4 power useful.

They do such things often with most of the Modes, and it is irritating. In my opinion, the physics bending powers in the game (Electrokinesis, Psychokinesis, Teleportation) are never as powerful as they really should be. Again, game balance I guess.

About the Doyen purges, it should happen just as you stated. The Doyen SHOULD have a genetic marker in Prometheused psions set as a fail-safe should anything unplanned happen. Be it viral, noetic over-sensitivity (backlash), genetic breakdown, sterility, etc, etc... there should be something. They are master manipulators after all. Should the Doyen turn against Humanity, psions should be dropping off like flies. The only psions who might have a chance are the Chibs (who can use Quanta to supplement natural function, and buffer against Psi), and the Norca (who may have detected and altered any such fail-safe).

I suspect (read: hope) that may be the case in the game I am currently playing in. In addition to my ST continually hinting at a coming apocalypse, it also fits into the events of what has happened to my Trinity character recently (actually, over the course of a couple years, game time).

My Legionnaire was starting to have some wierd psi template instability, so Trinity fitted him with a psi-stabilizer super-secret bioapp. Later, when needing to stop a tank from destroying his unit, he did a massive pyro effect to melt the shell... and the tank... and the landscape... and promptly fell into a coma. He didn't wake up until 418, sans the psi-stabilizer.

Everything was okay for awhile until the party encountered (and ran) from a Doyen. Well, long story shorter, he ended up being abducted by the Doyen and experimented on. They were trying to figure out exactly why he was/had rejecting/ed their genetic sequencing. He didn't know and wasn't willing to help them in their civil war, so one of the Doyen (Prometheus, he called himself) tried to take control of him.

Thanks to some very, very lucky die rolls (7 successes out of 9 dice) that didn't happen and he had enough time to use Enhancement (my only Quantakinetic auxiliary mode) to buffer himself against Psi affects. I though it a cool twist of fate that I should happen to have that.

So, perhaps frustrated, perhaps scared by the apparent manipulation of Quanta, the Doyen teleported my character to an Aberrent planet somewhere, and that's pretty much where we left it.

On the upside, my ST is now letting me buy modes in any Aptitude to any level (woohoo!), granted, at a higher exp cost (boo!). Of course, I promptly bought Enhancement up to level 2, which got me needing to look for QK powers online, which got me to find that WW developer list, which got me to post it here, which started this thread.

See, it all comes full circle ::wacko

-Will.

[Tamoline]

THe idea I was thinking of was making psions the vector of a super plague if the 'friendly' Doyen decided that humanity was more trouble than it was worth. Interesting though: I wonder if they are already the vector of such a virus, which is just lying dormant in most everyone until it is activated. It would make a better way of doing things, I suppose, although it carries the risk that it may be detected. So probably better disguise it as something completely harmless.

One adventure idea is a rex working on something accidentally triggers the virus. The town is wiped out, and the PCs are sent in to try and find out what happened.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I don't think the Doyen would even consider it, because the concept of a virus is beyond the understanding of a being made of energy.

[knave]

Assuming that were the case - you're forgetting that they can posses other races. What I have noticed though is that they only seem to be able to possess Psions! I suspect there are occasions when having a meat body is rather helpful

-knave

[phoenix]

See, it all comes full circle

It's not really a circle, so much as a kind of bizarre triple helix.. anyway.

I don't think the Doyen would even consider it, because the concept of a virus is beyond the understanding of a being made of energy.

I don't know about that - they are also the masters of biotech after all, and I refuse to accept that they can be that without understanding how to build a wicked virus which only attacks cells with hyper-active mitochondria (is that how psi users channel psi, or am I thinking of something else?).

[Tamoline]

Ayre el KaBeer - point, but they do seem to have a fairly good idea about biotech from somewhere (and not the Qin). AFAIK biotech can get diseases, hence the idea of viruses cannot be too foreign to them, even if it's as 'Something biotech suffers from.'

knave - fascinating point! Maybe the Prometheus effect (purposefully) builds in an easily triggered override that the Doyen can take advantage of, allowing them to possess the individual without a save, so to speak.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Hey Tamoline, you seem to think the Doyen are al powerfull, all knowing beings. Sure they have the power but not neccesarily the knowledge or the ability to comprehend certain aspects of other life, sure they know biotech but when a biotech device is 'sick' they just heal it by restoring its noetic field to normal they don't need to look into the cause.

[Tamoline]

I don't think that the Doyen are all knowing and all powerful. I *do* think that they are paranoid enough that they wouldn't give humanity a toy without a way to take it back (preferably with little or no risk to themselves). Even better if they could take decimate the rest of humanity at the same time. I'll grant you that they may not understand diseases that well (though I would not be surprised if they had equivalents). On the other hand, I've just had the bright idea that they possibly could tie an activatable algesic effect similiar to infectious cure, only in reverse. Simple, and psionic. What do you think?

(Oh, and as to why the hostile faction hasn't used something similiar up until now? Simple, they didn't have those command codes, and if they introduced a similiar effect it may overplay their hand and the rexes might well be able to stop it.)

Sorry if I tend to ramble and post a lot.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Oh, and as to why the hostile faction hasn't used something similiar up until now?

Because they weren't part of the project to unlock humanity's psi potential.

On the other hand, I've just had the bright idea that they possibly could tie an activatable algesic effect similiar to infectious cure, only in reverse. Simple, and psionic. What do you think?

Too complicated even for the Doyen, despite their abilities they seem like pompous simpletons who only think in 1 step increments, when something fails they blame the project and move on to the next. For example, when Larsen ordered the legions to defend Sydney, common what did they expect, for their little pets to obey them when regardless of the situation? Kinda reminds me of the American governments past attemps at setting up puppet governemts, and how they ended up getting bitten in the arse more than once...

[Tamoline]

Because they weren't part of the project to unlock humanity's psi potential.

Actually I meant why haven't the hostile faction created a similiar psi plague among the humans to weaken them, without the help of the orders

Too complicated even for the Doyen, despite their abilities they seem like pompous simpletons who only think in 1 step increments, when something fails they blame the project and move on to the next. For example, when Larsen ordered the legions to defend Sydney, common what did they expect, for their little pets to obey them when regardless of the situation? Kinda reminds me of the American governments past attemps at setting up puppet governemts, and how they ended up getting bitten in the arse more than once...

Two different problems here. I do think the Doyen don't understand humans very well. You can make the case that they *did* expect the psions to not intervene. Why? Well, it's what the Doyen would have done. Apparently you can be really good at Telepathy, and still have no real idea about what drives another sentient.

What about putting controls into the psions like I suggested? Different problem entirely. It doesn't rely on the Doyen understanding humans. It relies on their (documented) paranoia and wish to be on top of the situation. One can even say that it results from them assuming that humans think like them. As far as I can tell, there is no way they would give a lesser species such a powerful tool, unless they could take it away again. (This doesn't bode well for the Chromies, does it?)

But, hey, once again, this is just my take on the situation.

[phoenix]

I don't think it's too far-fetched an assumption to make to say that the Doyen could psionically engineer viruses. After all, they can psionically engineer cells (biotech), which are, by definition, almost infinitely more complex. Besides, they were flesh and blood once, right?

[Psionycx]

Thanks everyone for the welcomes. It's nice to join in on this great forum.

Personally, I don't see the Doyen building in a "failsafe" into the psions. If they had one then they wouldn't be sending the Chromatics to wipe humanity out, they'd just activate their hidden trump card. It's possible that they had a low opinion of humans (recent human history was a mess) and never imagined they could be as decisive as they turned out.

The Doyen are highly evolved, but they have trouble understanding "mortal" beings. They seem to have been genuinely surprised that humanity (read: the psions) have stepped outside the lines of their neat plan. Maybe there was a different future in the Doyen's clairsentient vision that was altered by Process 418? Maybe 418 obscured their awareness of the future the same way it obscured Otha's?

[Adam]

I don't think the Doyen would even consider it, because the concept of a virus is beyond the understanding of a being made of energy.

They have already unravelled and manipulated human genetics. It's a little naive to think they could reengineer and augment human genetic structures (ie: the Prometheus Effect) while not understanding such simple concepts as viruses and antibodies. Compared to what they have done already, a virus would be much easier and more straight-forward.

a wicked virus which only attacks cells with hyper-active mitochondria (is that how psi users channel psi, or am I thinking of something else?).

I don't recall it ever saying that, Phoenix. Maybe you are thinking Parasite Eve? ::laugh

Personally, I don't see the Doyen building in a \"failsafe\" into the psions. If they had one then they wouldn't be sending the Chromatics to wipe humanity out, they'd just activate their hidden trump card.

Actually, Psionycx, it was different faction of the Doyen who manipulated and sent the Chromatics. The books have made it pretty clear that the Doyen are split about their opinion of humanity. One part hates humans and wants them wiped out (because of Aberrancy), and one part wants to use humans to achieve their nefarious goals. I am sure there are other Doyen factions and opinions on the matter that never got explored.

We also know that the "good" faction of Doyen DID infact build a genetic failsafe into the Prometheus Effect to only awaken a Psion to one aptitude. They wouldn't want humans becoming as powerful as them, after all.

They also built a failsafe into the Quantakinetics (being the most powerful, and thus most dangerous aptitude, it only makes sense). From day one, proxy Bruhano was possessed by a sleeper Doyen. It just watched and waited to see how their experiment would turn out... and when the potential threat became too great (probably because of something the Chibs were researching), the Doyen activated their failsafe and Chibs go bye-bye (except for the ones saved by that tricksy del Fuego).

Another possibility is that they wouldn't unleash a plague on humanity as a whole because they fear the Nova eruptions that would cause. They do hate and fear Aberrants more than anything else. If that is the case, it is again more viable to just target the Psion population, since there is no chance of them erupting.

Of course, all these conclusions are a matter of circumstance and opinion. Some people see the Doyen as childish and short-sighted, thus a way to decimate psions may not have occured to them early on.

On the other hand, I have always considered the Doyen to be much smarter and cunning then that. I also see them ultimately as "villians", and I tend to always assume villians are smart, cunning, and well-planned. Plots within plots...

You do bring up a interesting point about what, if anything, the Doyen saw surronding 418. They must be only mediocre Clears if they didn't know what Norca was up to. Terra Verde pretty much states that Herzog knew what del Fuego was up to... and the Doyen didn't? Hmm...

[Tamoline]

You do bring up a interesting point about what, if anything, the Doyen saw surronding 418. They must be only mediocre Clears if they didn't know what Norca was up to. Terra Verde pretty much states that Herzog knew what del Fuego was up to... and the Doyen didn't? Hmm...

Actually it states in TV that Del Fuego assumes that Otha knows everything he does. Big difference. Also, there was a lot of interference around that event. I don't think even Otha could tell that much about it, simply because of that. And you could have bet good money that Otha has spent a lot of time looking into 418. Would you potentially let the Earth be destroyed if you could stop it?

[Finbar]

Y'know, if Otha saw the Earth as being destroyed, then there is a possibility that the Doyen saw the Earth as being destroyed as well. Which would mean that they would have seen humanity in general as not being around much longer (after all, the colonies rely on Earth to survive; no Earth, no colonies). So, they would have taken just the basic limit (no cross-aptitude stuff), and helped humanity along on its way to destruction...

Of course, if I were really being nasty and devious, I would have made sure that my psions had something to give anyone with a node...Unless they had tried this already, resulting in the Colony and company....And that, of course, backfired....

(I think I like this thread.... ::devil )

FR

[Tamoline]

Y'know, that explains why the 'friendly' Doyen were so adamant about getting the extra solar colonies up and running. They were probably hoping that they could blame 418 on the abberants and have their own pet fanatical anti-abberant force. Also, since 418 would not have happened without them introducing the orders, them setting the whole shebang up might have been a way of destroying the largest and most dangerous concentration of abberant producers. I bet they're really unhappy now. What ever they thought was going to happen, I am sure it wasn't this.

It also explains why the Chromies were aimed at the off world facilities on Earth when they invaded. After all, Earth is just a distraction. It wasn't going to exist in two years time. No, they were intent on making sure the infection didn't spread. Interesting ideas.

[Psionycx]

Even if the Doyen behind the Chromatics are a different group, it stands to reason they could trigger a doomsday factor built into the psions even if they didn't design the original.

For that matter, why bother? If you're going to go the germ warfare route why not just find some particularly virulent xenovirus and teleport it into Earth's biosphere?

That the anti-human Doyen have not done this suggests that they don't think along those lines.

Clairsentience is not infallible. Not even Otha could see beyond Process 418. There's also the question of how much beings that see the future affect the future. It's possible that the Doyen themselves may add variables into the future. And then there's Max Mercer to consider as well. Perhaps such wild cards in time can surprise even the Doyen.

The Chibs were never anything other than a test drive of an Aptitude the Doyen had never seen before. Humanity's affinity for quantum, to the point of even being able to affect it psionically, presented quite a Pandora's Box to the Doyen. Since "Bhurano" exercised such exclusivity in recruiting for her order, taking only people with benefit to research, the Chibs as a group, though potentially very powerful, would have been vulnerable to being taken out by battle-seasoned opponents.

[Tamoline]

I think we might want to agree to disagree. That being said...

Even if the Doyen behind the Chromatics are a different group, it stands to reason they could trigger a doomsday factor built into the psions even if they didn't design the original.

Not necessarily. Think of them less as a monolith, more as individual organisations with different goals. Would Biosystems know Orgotek's computer passwords? No, not generally. They might be able to find out, but that's something else entirely.

For that matter, why bother? If you're going to go the germ warfare route why not just find some particularly virulent xenovirus and teleport it into Earth's biosphere?

They'd have to do serious research first. And honestly, this xenoviruses are actually very unlikely to even effect humans, let alone be particularly virulent. IRL species jumping between mammals in fairly rare. How likely is that a bug from a completely different world will do better. With the amount of research involved, it's probably just easier to design your own. (Or have an infectious psi disease, as mentioned.)

For the rest of your post, I agree with it. Hell, I even made some of those point myself.