Aberrant RPG - Mega-Strength vs Vehicles

[Reighnhell]

Or on the WW Aeon boards, the debate has once again cropped up of how to resolve Mega-Strength vs Vehicles. I am also considering revising my current method and would like some feedback.

Option A ( the one I am currently using): A Nova with Strength 5/Mega-Str 4 punches a main battle Tank 6[12]. The Nova will deal 7[20] minimum vs 6[12]. I add the Armor values of the Tank for a grand soak of 18. the Nova will deal 2 automatic damage to the Tank, as well as 7 dice. This stands a good chance of crushing the Tank in a single blow.

Pro- Displays the awesome power of a Nova against puny baseline technology.

Con- Makes anything made out of Normal tech more or less useless against the power of a fairly standard Nova.

Option B: Same Nova, same tank. This time the Damage adds are ignored ( as in vehicle vs vehicle combat). the Nova has 7 vs the Tanks 6 soak. The Nova has a chance to inflict 1 level ( not counting any succeses).

Pro- Makes Nova vs vehicle combat a bit more even.

Con- shortchanges Mega-strength, as in this system there is little difference between Mega-Str 1 and Mega-str 5 when it comes to tank crushing.

Option C: The Nova and the Tank, round 3. This time the adds are again ignored. however, the rating in mega-Str is added to the Nova's damage die. This gives the Nova 11 dice against the Tanks 6 soak, for a minimum of 5 dice .

Pro- Fairly balanced, still allows extra strong nova's to Crush Tanks, but keeps it from being too easy.

Con- A little strange and not quite sure how my players will warm to it.

[Slagheap]

My group uses option C. It has an acceptable level of balance, and for us feel right in line with the rules. Especially since we like crossing the games over, and that makes Novas into pwerful Vargs as opposed to unstoppable titans of game breaking.

-Slag

[brilyn]

The way I see it (and run my game) is that with Mega-Str 1, you can lift/throw 1 metric ton. Hell, you can throw 1/2 metric ton bloody far.

Pushing your fist through steel is just another reflection of that.

I run option A. And have thrown a couple tanks at my guys. Sure, the guys beat the hell outa the tanks. But the damage output of the tanks was pretty nasty too ("let's build tanks to take on Novas").

Brilyn

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Option A. Combat between a Tank and M-Str 4 isn't supposed to be fair or even. At M-Str 4 you can juggle tanks.

[Quasar]

When I run Abby I prefer Option A As I see it, I shouldn't have to downplay my players abilities just because the tank doesn't stand a chance.

Perhaps if a nova developed a new type of metal that could hold up to an aberrant then it would be more fair for the tank. Tanks are tech, Aberrants have "Phenominal Cosmic Power" (with out the itty bitty living space) ::smiley1

Meg str 5 100 tons [25 autos]

Meg Sta 5 10/5 (assuming normal stamina =5 and no stamina suppliment powers are in use ie boost, armour, forcefield..etc)

Tank blast 105 mm gun damage 15d10l [10]

Tank armour 6 [12]

It's every Nova and tank for them selves.

[VictorHFrost KSC]

on juggling...

i can juggle rocks, i cannot however crush them to powder in the palm of my hand. lifting strength and crushing (impact) strength are in fact not the same thing. it primarily deals with the mass and integrity of what you are trying to damage. aberrants still maintain the advantage over tanks in a straight "fist fight" simply due to maneuverability and the simple fact that a nova can climb on top of the tank's turret and rip it open while being totally immune to its range of fire. if you use the one for one rule (option c) they end up still having a healthy means of dispatching large armored vehicles while not making it an insta kill if you hit (which i'm hesitant to use when it comes to people and absolutely loathe to use against vehicles). as powerful as aberrant is thats simply too much and makes even mankind's best efforts completely and utterly useless against novas. being outmatched is fine, but standing no chance at all? even comics don't work that way most days.

jake

[Quasar]

as powerful as aberrant is thats simply too much and makes even mankind's best efforts completely and utterly useless against novas.

Well that is a very true point, and i do tweak things here and there, Like in my universe Pax is a great guy! mal is a bit of a sh*t disturber (as far as I understand it, so is Senior Mal ::smiley1 ) and I currently have a cap on quantum, no higher than 5 and no mastery. simply because my players in another game (or two) got mega powerful fast (my fault really) Now I want them to earn it, and they agree. but for mega stats, it's every nova for himself. The way I figure it, the tank could very possibly take out the nova in one blast. if not , bye bye tank.

As for getting on top and ripping off the turret, well they used to drop grenades inside of the tank. >BOOM< crew are dead and the tank is disabled. Now I do realize that there is a difference really, but the results were the same. Tank still disabled. that is how I see the balance.

As for comics today, you are right my friend it isn't like that.

As far as mankind not having a chance...isn't that why they threatend to nuke the planet if the aberrant's didn't leave?

But in the end my friend, to each thier own. ::thumbsup

(ME) Tastes Great

(YOU) Less Filling

::smiley1 take care!

[brilyn]

i can juggle rocks, i cannot however crush them to powder in the palm of my hand. lifting strength and crushing (impact) strength are in fact not the same thing.

I get your point, but I disagree.

"Destroying" a tank does not mean "turning to scrap".

Yes, I agree different muscles are used for punching, lifting and throwing. But Abberant doesn't differentiate (unless you take the Lifter, Thrower, or Unstoppable Force extras) when it comes to Mega Strength.

With my fist I can put a decent dent in a plaster wall, but I'm not going to scratch granite (I'm strength 5 from the chart in the main book).

And this has *nothing* to do with my Strength really.

It has *everything* to do with the fact that I'm dealing bashing damage.

If a Nova is not dealing Lethal Damage, I don't let them damage machinery, bar some sort of feat. Yes, one dot in claws will allow the Nova to rip apart tanks. But why not? It's a case of knocking the turret off, or smashing a tank tread, or killing the engine. All of these things "destroy" a tank, but leave it intact for the most part. And seem within the scope of power for Abberants with Mega Str 1+.

Any Nova dealing bashing damage simply picks up the tank (no problem with Mega Str 2+), and smashes it into the ground. Is this ok with you? If so, why not simply punching the engine out of commission?

Brian Lynchehaun

[Ayre el KaBeer]

I hate to break this to people but modern tanks weigh between 20 (light) and 80 (battle) tons in other words minimum of mega strength 3 so there is no way a mega strength 2 character is gonna pickup a battle tank and start doing juggling acts at kids birthday parties. ::partyhat1

Well maybe lifter characters can.

[Slagheap]

I think you guys are giving Mega-str way more credit than it deserves. Sure you can be super strong, but are you telling me that even a M-str 1 nova should be pounding the Hell out of tanks? I used an M-str 1 character in my Trinity game on saturday, all of teh players took atleast one hit and lived. I'm all for super strength being worth something, hence the use of Option C. Super strong novas can hurt tanks with their fists, which is no small task. Having 3 or 4 dice after soak the soak of a tank is pretty impressive when you consider the source. And that would be a punch from a low M-str nova.

-Slag

[Quasar]

I was refering to Mega strength of 4-5 and nothing below really ok maybe (just maybe Ms 3) Meg str 4-5 can destroy a tank...not slag it but effectivly (ap) destroy it.

[Finbar]

Umm....What is the effective difference between slagging a tank (reducing it to cinders) and destroying it? Or does it really matter? ::confused

As far as damage goes, I figure that if a punch is doing enough damage to penetrate a tank's defenses , then I'm going to let it damage the tank....

FR

[Slagheap]

Yeah Quasar that's what I'm talking about. Under option C a Nova with M-str 4 or 5 you can drop a tank, it takes a couple of punches, but it can be done, fairly easily. And, under option C an M-str 1 or 2 nova can hurt a tank, and given enough time, could put it down too.

HERE HERE FOR OPTION C!

-Slag

::thumbsup

[ProfPotts]

I don't know why exactly I started to think about this again, but I think the armour adds Vs damage adds issue can be decrypted if we just examine the text in the core book a bit more closely.

P.250-251 gives us the basic low-down, & is the source for most of the debate. It tells us that damage & armour adds cancel out, & just base damage dice Vs base Soak is used, but also states "vehicle weapon" in the text. This results in some people interpreting the text to refer only to vehicles, & not to Novas, & others to see it as refering to the "adds" system as a whole. Others take a middle-ground of some kind or another.

However, there's also the oft ignored text on p.278 under "Armour" on the Vehicle Chart,

The rating in brackets indicates the minimum number of damage successes required to penetrate the vehicle's armour. This rating is reduced by the damage add indicated for heavy weapons or nova attacks.

(The "Damage" entry under the Heavy Weapons Chart on p.276 has a similar text.)

So what does this mean? At first glance it appears identical to normal Soak - damage & soak cancel each other out. On closer inspection, however, we can see an important difference. In normal damage Soak reduces damage adds & damage dice, to a minumum of zero (with an automatic die of bashing damage if the target's Soak isn't double that of the initial damage pool). With armour adds it works the other way 'round: the armour add is the rating that the damage pool has to exceed before it gets to do any damage, damage adds can reduce this rating, also to a minimum of zero, but don't carry over into actual damage after that.

So, against a normal, dice only, attack, armour adds act just like normal Soak, except for the fact that, if their rating isn't reached by the damage pool, the "free die" of bashing damage isn't allowed. Against an attack with a damage add the damage add is always lost, but the armour add may just be reduced.

Let's look at an example:

Main battle tank - Armour = 6[12]

Against a Nova at the peak of of human strength (with a 7 damage dice punch) the tank takes no damage (since 7 is less than the armour add of 12).

The same Nova with a Mega-Str of 1 (doing 7[5] on a punch) reduces the tank's armour add by 5, resulting in 6[7] Soak. The Nova's base dice of 7 are still less than the tank's armour add, & he again does no damage.

With a Mega-Str of 2 (& a 7[10] punch) the tank has 6[2] Soak. The Nova's base damage ow exceeds the armour add by 5 dice, but the tank's normal Soak reduces this to zero. The Nova can now roll his one "free" die of bashing damage, but that's all. He can waste the tank, but it'll take time.

Up to Mega-Str 3 (doing 7[15] with a punch), & the Nova's getting somewhere. His damage add reduces the tank's armour add to zero. His base damage of 7 also exceeds the tank's base Soak by 1, so he does 1 die of bashing damage to the tank.

No matter how high the Nova's Mega-Str goes, he'll still only do that 1 die of damage (unless he uses a higher damage maneuvre than a punch, or get's a bonus for an accurate strike), since his base damage is 7 dice.

In this way Mega-Str damage adds are important, but don't render the tank useless.

If he were to use a Quantum Bolt against the tank, & had Quantum 2 & Q-Bolt 3 (for the same Nova point cost as his Mega-Str 3, doing 12[6] bashing damage), he'd reduce the tank's armour add to 6. His base damage exceeds that by 6 dice, which is then soaked by the tank's normal Soak, resulting in that same single free die of bashing damage. So we can see that things appear pretty equal using this method of figuring out damage & armour adds.

Going further, we see that the text on p.276 indicates that damage adds reduce the "armour rating" of "supertough Novas" as well as vehicles. So Novas do have armour adds after all! But where are they? The answer is in the "Puny Human" sidebar on p.240. Reading the text we can see that if a Nova's Soak exceeds double the attack's damage pool, then the Nova doesn't suffer the free die of bashing damage. This implies that half a Nova's Soak, rounded down, can actually be considered as armour adds (when the Puny Human option is used). So a Nova with 2 Lethal Soak actually has a Lethal Soak of 1[1], a Nova with 13 Bashing Soak actually has a Bashing Soak of 7[6], etc.. In most cases this does just end up acting as normal Soak anyway, but with high-damage attacks the distinction becomes important.

[Alex Green]

???

For the various books, I don't get the impression that a tank is the equal of your standard elite. Using the Puny human rule is great. It really should apply to tanks. But what that means is that you need to do more than 12 dice in order to do anything.

Thus 6[12] means it gets a soak of 18, but don't even bother if you have less than 12.

Yes, that means if you are insanely accurate with a high power riffle, or mega-str 1 for that matter, you can do a single die of damage to a tank. Well, a tank is a complex piece of machinery. It doesn't take much damage to stop it, it is just that damage is very hard to do. (A very small crack in a computer chip shut down my car ::wacko ).

Thus at mega-str 1 or 2, you can do a single die of damage to a tank. Over a period of time, that will deal with it. At mega-str 3, you do more than a single die.

And at mega-str 4+ you can total a tank with one punch (and that punch already hits like a cannon). Coincidentally, that is the same point at which you can effortlessly throw tanks or juggle them or whatever.

[phoenix]

As for the debate on lifting something v.s. juggling it, it's not really fair to use a rock as an example. Weight increases a lot faster with size than does structural integrity. Anyone can lift a rock, but if you can lift a tank, it's reasonable to assume you can punch holes in it.