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CHILL

Health Levels

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The WOD and Trinity use a health system I always found odd. Well for one, it doesn't correctly record damage to precise parts of the body (yet, it is simple and sweet). WhiteWolf suggests that damage be more subjective than hard-fast number crunching. I prefer damage-specific locations, if they can be kept short and sweet. However, if every system built becomes subjective at the bottom line - then why have systems to begin with?

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I think the developers intended the ST system to be more intuitive and story driven, as opposed to reality and statistic driven.  The system they use is there only as a suggestion, it can be modified or ignored at any time.

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if every system is subjective at bottom line why have systems? i believe the idea is varying degrees of realism based completely on your own preference. besides that, why would you need specific hit location charts if you're a detailed st anyway? there are rules for called shots and targeting, and assuming the hit lands the st can say something along the lines of "ok, your right arm is useless now". its not like ww doesn't account for hit location, it just lets the storyteller guide it more than a roll of the dice or a seperate chart (although they do have hit location charts for ships that can easily be modified). i believe he idea of this is to gain a cinemaic quality in game, allow the characters to occasionally have that dumb fool luck of a flesh wound at st discretion as well as the more realistic as the scene calls for it.

jake

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welcome aboard samuri! we're always happy to see new faces around here... drop by anytime and say hi!

oh, and i tend to see things along jake's argument... i mostly go free form, although i would like to apply more realism and less numbers than i do... well i have an upcoming story and helpless players, so...  ::halo

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in WOD,Combat aka the Big Book of Beating Ass, on page 89 there is a hit location chart it can be used for random hits or called shots. the section goes on into the next page detailing the effects of targeted damage. I don't know if the book is still in print. if you can't find it and you want the info let me know and I'll post it. I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for but it might be useful in making a more detailed health system.

Spider

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As the others have stated, the Storyteller rules are meant to be flexible, giving the ST most of the power, instead of the dice.

In my most recent game, I recall someone being hit where they couldn't use an arm (or leg) right at least once.

It's all a matter of being descriptive a running with the moment. I don't see a reason no over-complicate the ST system unnecissarily, though if that's your preference, go for it.

-Joseph

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Hey, I forgot about that one, Spider. Cheers!  ::withbeer

Lessee here... *opens new window, scans catalog* Yup. WoD: Combat. Still available. $15 even.

There ya go, compliments of Spider's good memory.

BTW, welcome aboard, Spider. Good to have you here.

-Joseph

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heya spider, good to see somebody new on the boards, and as joe said, excellent memory. yeah, st system allows for hit locations, its really just preferential as to whether you use em or not.

jake

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HI, thanks for the warm welcome.  ::smiley5

I agree, I only use hit location rules if a called shot is being used. the only reason I made the sudjestion is cause Divis Mal seemed to want to add a more of a realistic element to the combat system. Although I personal think it is more work than it is worth. it would be possible to make a good house rule for health levels by location and damage transfer (the kind of thing you find in say gurps) with the info in that book.

Spider

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Welcome Spider,

Just one thing to remember

::beer  ::beer  ::beer  ::beer  ::beer  ::beer  ::beer

::saki ::saki ::saki ::saki ::saki ::saki ::saki

Drinks are on Joe...  ::devil

Paxs Pimp ::withbeer

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hey pax, his wife said no...so that means it's on you....

hope you have good credit w/ the bartender!!!!

::withbeer  ::withbeer  ::withbeer  ::withbeer

::saki  ::saki  ::saki  ::saki  ::saki  ::saki  ::saki

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I like to do things backwards (with the exception of called shots.)

If it's a high-numbered health loss from a medium or small source, I call it a neck injury or groin injury or temple or whatever seems appropriate. If it's a penny-anty 1 or 2 level loss from a BFG2000 Macro Blaster, I say "you barely winged 'em off thier hip/shoulder/whatever."

For called shots, I just assign an increased difficulty for an increased damage pool. (Yeah, I know, it's lame. Sue me.)

If I wanted a high degree of randomized specificity, I'd have wasted my money on Role Master.

___

Hey Pax, you gonna pay up this tab or do I call Minerva?

::sly

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You know I really like your method of Health and where they hit on the person. I always tend to think of shots as being in the upper torso unless called. But I really dig the whole neck, leg groin etc concept.

and yes i will pay up on my tab...   :(

a now very poor Paxs Pimp

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Hey Pax, you gonna pay up this tab or do I call Minerva?

::eh minerva? that's nadrakas... well, regardless, he has to pay the tab... with his allowance... :P

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Nonsense! Nadrakas only runs the forum. Minerva has all the REAL power!

::minrules ::cultofminerva  

And what the heck, since Pax is buying...

::withbeer

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Nonsense! Nadrakas only runs the forum. Minerva has all the REAL power!

...i wonder when chill's gonna speak up on that....

::sigh

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So I've been away for a few days, I come back and see a cool looking post and I might want to put my two cents in. Unfortunately by the time I've got there you're all way off the subject and topicville is nowhere in sight!

::smiley6

Monkeys! The lot of you!

:P

Anyways, the WW damage system is ace, although it kinda doesn't work that well in a combat orientated game (like Exalted). "I know - let's just add more boxes!" But then again, most of us play WW 'cos we don't like hack-and-slash. Right?

And am I too late to get a drink on whoevers tab? Or am I gonna have to use my, ahem, 'girly charms' on the barman. Again. ?

Chloe

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::eh

topic? you mean there was a point to this thread?! wow....

and just put it on pax's tab...i'm sure he won't mind....

:: goes back for another, on pax ::

::withbeer

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Well I feel there is a bit too much hypocrisy in WOD rules many times. They create an objective system then inform players to use subjective results. Seems a little off balance, I mean, I like transparent systems, but I have caught WOD rules shooting themselves in the foot many times.

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You'll have to detail out your arguments on the "objective/subjective" bit sometime for us, Divis. Actually, you created a great post for that already. Perhaps further discussion on that can be continued there.

As for the "hypocrisy," I see where you're going with it, but find it unfounded. In the core books (if memory serves me correctly), the Wolf has some words on the how's and why's of the rules. They explain that they present mostly hard and fast rules for those who like the crunchy bits. They go on to state that those rules can be pared down and generally mutilated to fit whatever you desire.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but I feel that the Wolf did good by us in creating a system that can be flexible or rigid as desired. Health levels included. (Blatant attempt to be on topic.  ::rolleyes )

-Joseph

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What part are you not understanding, Divis. Perhaps I can explain further on what you may be missing.

-Joseph

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(to divis)i for one wan't quite sure what you meant in that thread... what did you mean by subjective successes?

and i think joe was trying to ask if you had any arguments or opinions on the matter...

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Sorry guys, I lost interest in my own discussion for a second. No, I completely understand, but I was just being (am) a prick. I just find many instances where White Wolf will supply rules then afterwards tell you to throw them out. "Yes, murder is illegal, but if you'd like more freedom - then murder away." I guess I am concerned that players may not receive the full experience of roleplaying with certain ST/GM/SU/CK/ME at helm. I hope to become a future game designer when I have the time after college, so understanding where actual gameplay system will be in the next few years is of great importance. And I support transparent dynamic rules systems, WOD does a good job, but it seems like many rules contradict one another or simply don't fit. I personally feel it's a cop out to say "leave it to the Director", but again, I am too critical. Maybe I need to understand more.

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are you talking dice rolling type rules, over reaching game mechanic type rules,or societal rules as presented in the games setting?

for the moment, i'm going to assume dice rules, which is what everyone in your main thread was talking about... like you i prefer to have solid rules that don't contradict themselves, but i really only use them for new gamers who are unsure of themselves... who want to find out how things work. once a player "graduates" so to speak i tend to let the rules slide more as i move the game to be more descriptive and cinematic...

is that what you meant?

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I believe dice rules, they assume the character is standing still on a flat plain in a temperate climate with no encumbrance and in perfect health. When things get dicey and the systems pile on one another - they just muck things up and the group is forced to throw them away. A descriptive effect is fun, but being forced into it when systems become heavy seems odd.

BTW, off topic, I had an old ST who lead my group in Vampire and he made all the rolls. I hate that guy.

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When things get dicey and the systems pile on one another - they just muck things up and the group is forced to throw them away.

That's why I start off by throwing out the dice systems entirely.  ;)

BTW, off topic, I had an old ST who lead my group in Vampire and he made all the rolls. I hate that guy.

That's how I was introduced to role playing (D&D specifically). I got to choose my race, class, and weapon. Everything else was chosen or rolled for me. I feel your pain, Div.  :P

-Joseph

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That's why I start off by throwing out the dice systems entirely.  ;)

Then how is it any differnt from playing cops and robbers? Without a system no matter how loose everything comes down to "I got you! no you didn't!"

Spider

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you would think it would come to that, but strangely with our group it hasn't... well, we aren't totally dice free... we will on occassion roll a single die to determine success, or throw rock, paper, scissors... mostly, though what happens depends on how well the player explains/narrates what they plan on doing... "i'm going to bash him with my club" gets you little, and with us generally means barely succeeding, or not at all... whereas a more creative thought out description of your action will work better. "i'm going to drop to one knee feigning a slip on the bloodied floor, as i'm falling i'm going to dive to the left and swing for his ankles." is an example...

i think the best usage was when one character was approached by the police...

ST: the start asking you where you were last night, they have reason to believe that you were involved in the robbery and subsequent arson.

player: Ah!!! Ah!!!! Charisma 5 plus to performance 6 to have a heart attack on the spot!!!!!!!

the st, and the rest of us were so surprised by the action for it's sheer creativity, he not only convinced the cops he was dying, he convinced the doctors it was just indesgestion...

that's more so how our games run...

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I see what you are saying and it is great you have a troup that can play that way, but it's an exception. Before today I have never heard of a gaming session running smoothly without the intrusion of some kind of system to settle contested outcomes. I spend most of my effort while GMing trying to maintain realism and using as little system intrusion as possible.

Spider

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Dice have feelings too. But yeah, Joseph, D&D was more like participation in watching your character made - even the health levels were random - RANDOM HEALTH LEVELS!!!!!

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At least a player was able to choose what they could: Race, Alignment, Class, spells and equipment.  ???

*Sigh*

Those were the days, huh?  ;)

-Joseph

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