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Sh*tty Aeon Metaplot


CHILL

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I know you guys all know about the Trinity metaplot with the Doyen. I ask you, am I late to point out hoe absolutely stupid this is? I mean White Wolf has inspired me with their creativity over the years - but the Doyen metaplot seems like they just gave up. It' so cliched it's not even fun - just sad.

Again, I'm a newbie, am I late to complain about this? It has bothered me since 1998.

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Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you, in that I have absolutly no problem with the Dyen metaplot.  I don't really feel that the Doyen are all that cliched.  There are no new ideas in the world.

So of course you can draw simularities between it and something else (tho nothing springs to mind hence my argument), but you can do that with just about anything WW (or any other gaming comoany has ever done).

You are entitled to your opinion, but I feel that it is entirly unfounded.

-Slag

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"There are no new ideas in the world."

With that closed mindset, I am not surprised. However, I'd like to see some more replies before I continue. Anyone else feel my frustration with assemblyline sci-fi plots?

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I think you may have misuderstood my meaninf when I said that there are no new ideas.  I feel that makes me more open minded, rather than less open minded.  I accept that an idea can have merits without being something amazingly new.  Just because there are no new ideas doesn't mean that there are no good ideas still being used, and mixed together with other ideas to generate effective products.

I hope that clears up the matter of my personal opinion with out comming off too defensively.  Yeah it's a little cynical, but it's the way I feel and to quote a song, 'You might think this attitude is bringing me down; but look again 'cause I ain't wearing no frown"

-Slag

PS: Brownie points to the first person that can name that quote (Fawkes and Victor's votes don't count ::thumbs-up )

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ok, well, metaplot stuff... gotta say, i'm with slag here. the doyen thing seems pretty fresh to me, i see it getting limited in the future if not handled correctly, strangling some game concepts, but i don't think it is in the least overused or cliched. i can't think of anything off the top of my head with quite the bend it has, and i enjoy that. besides which i view the doyen as added flavor to the primoris/ mercer angle which i think is more the overiding source of the metaplot (given the doyen only show in trinity and mercer/ primoris are everywhere in the world at one time or another). furthermore, uhm, ww creativity? inspiring? ok ok, maybe i'm a cynic too but the aeon universe is the most original idea i've seen come out of ww in the last 8 years. vampire? pfft, too many ripped concepts to count. werewolf? better but i can still cite where they got most of it (thinly vieled). changeling? best thing they had before aeon in my book, mainly because aside from being well ripped (i.e. not directly lifted from any one thing in particular) it was fairly accurate to the mythlore behind it. mage and wraith were good, but not because they were original, just because they were inovative with old concepts.

my take, maybe i'm a cynic, maybe not, however i do remember the golden rule of gamming. if i don't like it, it goes.

just to clarify, just cause vampire werewolf and all the other games ww proper puts out don't strike me as terribly original, doesn't mean i don't like them. ask my players, i got a real soft spot for some of those games

jake

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Again, I'm a newbie, am I late to complain about this? It has bothered me since 1998.

You've been carrying this unresolved stress around in you psyche for four years? Dude! You need a beer!

::beer

Personally, I think the Doyen rock. ::alien Then again, I like the old themes. I'm a sentimentalist.

::downmal

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I'm putting in my ¥0.02 here. Along with Slag, Victor, and Mr. Maker (  ::bigsmile ), I'm all for the snotballs. I think the way they are introduced and used is wonderful. Well done, I say.

In fact, I think all of the aliens are presented well in the material. The Chen are wonderfully enigmatic. (I still remember debates about them before the Alien Encounter seiries came out.) The Chromatics are detailed and well thought out. The Coalition is creepy and sinister. The Zeps... well, they are somehing to be explored.

Bates and crew did a great job on the creation of the game, the Doyen no exclusion.

-Joseph

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i've personally never really liked the doyen either, basically they seem a little too similar to elders in vampire and i despise that game deeply... i just see them as something too easily abused, they are too powerful...... they are well written though...

i just leave them out of my games entirely, i don't edit them out, i just never use them...

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Let's cut the bullcrap and get off our high horses for a moment. Focus on the metaplot, but please dont add "I agree with..."

Doesn't anyone just have an opinion anymore. I'm not looking to get ganged up on my oinion, as I would never do that to you guys.

Now I have been a sci-fi buff all my life, I have seen the Doyen-type-omnpresent-living-energy before and I believe if you do a Google search you can find the "greatest list of sci-fi cliches" or something like that.

It'd been done. Don't take offense, I'm not screamng and I'm not mad. Have a beer.  ::withbeer I'm buying for thegroup.

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ok, i'll cut the bullcrap. the doyen are no more cliched than telepathic big brother types, superspiritualist/ultrascientific healers, zen seers, gun toating space marine legions, ultrasecret spycharacter shapeshifters, vagabond teleporters or reality bending pseudo-evil scapegoats.

,,

thats my opinion.

i don't think they are any less cliched than anything else in trinity. no reflection on what i think of you or anything else. i simply disagree. i think saying the doyen are cliched is nitpicky. i understand you think they are somehow tripe sci-fi throwaway elements but i just don't take them that way.

and i've been a sci fi buff all my life too, and yeah i've seen it done before but not in the same way and not with the same emphasis. i latch on to the differences in the doyen and note them as decent enough ideas when compared to something like say the companions from earth final conflict. same premise, different spin. i like the different spin and think that it in no way makes them any more cliched than anything else in the game. its not necessarily the underlying idea i and the others think is original, rather the treatment in this instance that sets the doyen apart (hope i don't speak out of turn for you guys, if i did i apologize).

to note, i'm also inclined to agree with harle, i hated the vamp elders and how they always seemed to get played, so typically i show the doyen (on the striking few occasions i use them) as either completely uninterested in whats going on or so absorbed in it they make foolish choices.

jake

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and for the record, yes people have opinions, you happened to ask a question to which it seems several people oppose you though and you can't get mad at us when you asked what we thought in the first place. just because a few of us don't agree doesn't mean we're getting onto you, just that we don't agree. you asked, we answered, simple as that. no malice, no hard feelings.

::chillbeer  beer anyone?

jake

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ah, blessed smileys... giving the net a tone of voice and thus stopping poissible fights...  :)

but back to the doyen... the spin placed on the doyen is very different than say the on one the elders of vampire... but they still give me the sinister overmind feeling... they seem to silly (ie: the lack of ability to deal with short term planning and change, WTF?) and the war being fought over humanity at the same time... it makes no sense to me... it is great that at least the doyen have a weakness unlike elders, but why such a seemly enormous and fatal one...

how for instance did were they able to pull off creating psions and then getting the chibs killed off, if they can't deal with the speed of human thought and reaction? it doesn't seem to me that it would be possible for them...

again, my opinion on the psionic snotballs....

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Personally, I love the Aeon metaplot.  I wasn't too keen on it to begin with, but then I got the softcover of the mainbook which actually got me to read it cover to cover.  Now I have a ottally different outlook.

Now, while I tend to err on the idea of "Good artists create, great artists steal" and the idea of the collective unconsious transmitting more than archetypes, I think that it's fairly unique.  Biotech wasn't really mainstream in sci-fi gaming  till Trinity came out and it certainly wasn't part of a greater meta-plot.  

Ok, now while the idea of posessive psionic alien pussballs that want to rule all existence isn't exactally a new one, the way in which the plot is executed is quite good.  I mean, Trinity is your classic science fiction.  You're fighting to save humanity from Cthuloid horrors from the depths of space, there are lost colonies to rediscover, damaged hulks of freighters to explore, aliens to fight and talk with.  Plus it's just written so well.

As to the specifics of the overarching plotline, screw the Doyen, the interactions between the Trinity and the Orders are so intricate and just so damn cool.  Honestly, the game plays like a good science fiction novel reads, which is exactly how it ought to be.  I'm very satisfied with how Trinity is progressing (though I'd like it to go a bit faster bookwise!) and I think that it has a lot of potential...if only White Wolf would realize it and publish some stuff.

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actually i think the doyen have an even bigger weakness that hasn't really been covered. taint. sure while possesing a human host they are pretty ok and good to go, they have nice fleshy armor, but i figure a decent level aberrant with enough taint would simply dissipate an unprotected doyen.  actually this is kinda what i think might have been planned for them all along gven that baugh said the doyen angle would be cleared up, and its not like you can easily put allies or enemies of that level into the game on a whim.

i dunno, just talkin at this point

jake

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Wow. I missed a lot overnight. Let's start from the top of page 2, shall we?  ;)

Let's cut the bullcrap and get off our high horses for a moment. Focus on the metaplot, but please dont add \"I agree with...\"

Emoticons, please. We have them available by the bucketload, with more to come (trust me, I'm doing them). As Harle said, they realy help.  ::thumbs-up

When I stated I agreed with the other chaps posting before me when this thread started, I did so as to not have to restate most of what already has been said. Kinda simplifies it personally. Though I feel I elaborated enough to give an understanding of where I come from on the issue. (Maybe this is why Chill keeps giving me funny looks when I try to explain my thoughts to him.  ::rolleyes )

Now I have been a sci-fi buff all my life, I have seen the Doyen-type-omnpresent-living-energy before and I believe if you do a Google search you can find the \"greatest list of sci-fi cliches\" or something like that.

Hm. Seems that most of us Trin lovers have been long-standing sci-fi fiends. Something in common, then. From that vantage, take a look at the Vorlons from Babylon5. What do we have there? Biotech weilding, highly evolved, \"good,\" balls of light and energy that are trying to help younger races move along their personal view of the universe. Sound like anyone we know?  ;)

The Doyen are by no means original. But they are fun, if used well. I've been STing Trin since shortly after it came out, and not once (to my knowledge, Harle or Pax, correct me if I'm wrong) have I used the Doyen. No real need. I like where they are in the metaplot and backstory. Good stuff. I just can't see using them for more than that in one of my games at present. Maybe someday I will. ::shrugs::

the treatment in this instance that sets the doyen apart (hope i don't speak out of turn for you guys, if i did i apologize).

Spot on there, Jake. You definately didn't speak out of turn for me. I completely jive with what you're saying there. Thanks for wording it for me.   ::thumbs-up

i hated the vamp elders and how they always seemed to get played

So as not to turn this into another Vamp-bashing session, I'll just call that motion as passed. I'm in agreement, though I have some opinion differences. Email me or start another thread if you would like to solicit those from me.

I've not been a big fan of Aberrant canon for the same reasons as Vampire. The sig characters are scene-stealers and untouchable. I don't dig that. A game should be about the PC's.  ::sneaky2

I'd quote Bard, but since I'm inline with almost everything he said (I loved the metaplot from the start, drooling fanboy that I am  ::blush ), just refer to what he said below.

Anyway, those are my opinions thus far.

-Joseph

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William Shakespear never came up with an original story idea in his whole career. He did, however, provide a very good presentation of the old ideas.

Ray guns are clichè in sci-fi as well. So is gravity that points 90 degrees to the flightpath of the craft.

Since my opinion has been solicited, and since I've been asked for an opinion from my own unique point of view, I'll opine that beer is good.

'scuse me while I run to the fridge and get me one!

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Hmn...I always thought Trinity's main strong point wasn't really that it was all *that* original (okay, White Wolf game where you play a subsection of once-humans with science-defying powers...go!), but that it took as many semi-cliché ideas, wove them together, and had them all work out.

But then, my WW transition went Vampire > Aberrant > Trinity, and I found myself getting happier with each game on in.

[Naughty Ikonboard, turning my punctuation into emoctions...]

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[Naughty Ikonboard, turning my punctuation into emoctions...]

yeah, apologies for that.  Turns out its on the list of mends for IB - there are several, they are coming soon, they have been for a while.

Apparently.

*sigh*

When they do finally show, they'll be applied pronto.

;)

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The Doyen plot was pretty lame. I mean it was okay, right up until you find out they'd been the ones behind the prometheus (QSP?) chambers. They were right? I haven't got my book with me to check & it's the one part I've always ignored... now I could end up looking silly because of it!   :D

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I think the worst thing with the Doyen metaplot thigny, is that no one seems to question where the damn tanks you dunk your latents in come from, surely people would have noticed it's a bit technologically advanced?

And the name Proxies tends to be a bit of a give away in this respect as well proxies for what or whom?

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ya know, you have a point there psi... i had wondered about no one noticing the tanks, i hadn't thought about the word proxy though... but again, that seems like it ould be a beacon for questions...

or, trinity era people night be as oblivious as me... that could explain it... ::hehe

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Oblivious yet seksy Harle. . . ;)

Still, I don't tend to sweat too much about the "spooky Doyen" aspect of the metaplot, because I've basically taken them and morphed them into the worst aspects of the "benign" alien races I've read about/viewed in the movies. They're manipulative bastards who intended to use humanity as a weapon against aberrants, but were shocked when (duh) human beings turned out to be independant. So in my games they're covertly aiding the Coalition in their efforts to conquer/destroy Earth as well as leading the proxies they can manipulate down the road to destruction. Who can stop them? Well, the pcs for one. . .  :P

-Defender.

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i hadn't thought about the word proxy though... but again, that seems like it ould be a beacon for questions...

or, trinity era people night be as oblivious as me... that could explain it... ::hehe

Maybe it was part of project Re-Write, remove the word Proxy from general usage  ::wacko  ::wacko  ::halo

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Perhaps the general public, still shell-shocked from economic turmoil in the wake of the Aberrant War and reeling from the concept of the damn squids coming back again, decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Decades of staying one step ahead of doom followed by a few years of "whew, we might get to live after all" doesn't leave a whole lot of room for "say, where did you get those tanks, anyway?"

When you're starving to death and somebody gives you a loaf of bread, you don't read the lable first. ::halo

As to the Rewrite thing, don't get me started. (Spends two Willopwer points to overcome Vice and Psychological Flaw, thereby warding off lengthy and off-topic rant.)

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I would like to argue that the term proxy was a deliberate term usage recommended by Aeon when they discovered the orders in 2103/04. I think the idea was that these individuals were meant to act as representatives of the rest of their respective orders. With all the authority and responsibility that goes with the position.

vaguly related point. Does any one else read the proxies as being psiads? Just a thought

Paxs Pimp

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i'm pretty sure the proxies aren't psiads, for two reasons, in the aberrant pg it specifically states that psiads cannot achieve 5th dot powers, nor can they gain the fourth modality:vulgar, which includes quantakinesis and teleportation. it also states that these abilities won't be developed for a long long time to come. the second reason is that the story thus far specifically mentions the proxies and the psi orders as a whole as being intentionally limited and the product of noetic surgery. the definition of psiads is that   they concievably have access to all modes and that they are naturally occuring. eh, my two cents.

jake

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My main basis for this is that both Larssen and Zwindler began to manifest powers associated with their respetive modes before they traveled to Luna and met up with the Doyen. There fore they might have been Psiads who were then modified to be restricted to a single mode, and to be able to surpass the normal restrictions that are placed on pc psiads.

-Paxs Pimp

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Shattered Europe and Aurora Australias... In the front color section. The one in SE is more vivid in my memory it is a letter from Zwindler to Mohanan and Beitz in which he talks about "halucinations" that he has been having. And Larssen talks of feeling constantly hot or cold to extremes, and of always having stuff not be where she would set it down.

-Paxs Pimp

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