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Aberrant: Infinite Earth - Infinite Earth OOC: General Discussion


Mr Fox
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Yeah, I built IE as a framework that could contain pretty much any game or story that people wanted to tell.

It can certainly be used to tell individual stories that intertwine with other characters in individual worlds the way I first pictured it going, but I think it works best with worlds like CN where you get a number of people contributing to a shared environment, or an ST run setting within the overall framework.

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We now have two different things two different players have been told about how Improved Attribute is going to work in the IE worlds, so I'm calling for an official vote and ruling.

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Per the book, NP cannot be spent on buying up Attribtutes over 5 a character creation, but the XP cost is 75%.

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Per everywhere else it's been used on the board, you can use NP to purchase it up.

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So, official rulings need to be made for IE in general and CN and A&A in specific.

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My personal vote is to allow it, since character creation is the time when it can most effectively be done and often being able to take Attributes up to 10 has something to do with the character's base concept. It rather sucks to be told: 'nice concept, but you can't do that until much much much much much after the character has been in play'. It is very frustrating to be told to spend NP on something (the body mod itself) and then not be able to do anything with the body mod during character creation or until well after the character has been in play. Sort of like telling someone to buy up Weather Manip, but they can't actually use it until a year after they've been playing with the character.

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Either that or just don't allow Improved Attribute at all in the games. That's my vote.

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My vote is to only allow XP to be used to improve past 5.

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To go beyond the maximum of human potential without using mega attributes, that takes effort. I'd allow IA, but only with XP. Improved Attribute just gives the potential to go higher.

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Sort of like taking a quality in Shadowrun that allows you to go above the normal maximum without cyberware.

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There is a difference between effective use of a quality/merit/Body Mod and something that is so good someone would be stupid not to take it. As we saw in QF, once it was allowed, everyone had Improved Attribute and 3-9 attributes maxed out.

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Just look at it from a mechanical point of view. 1 dot of Mega-Attribute equals 9 dots of base attribute, well more than making up that the Mega-Die counts as two successes. That is a severe disparity in games with few NP. If you want to make the super attractive person and be able to do more, just buy up App to 10, and you still have an extra dot to assign to your Attributes instead of buying Mega-App 1 (1np for IA, 2np for +6 attributes vs. 3np for M-App1).

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In games with more (or far more) NP, then it almost becomes moot. Why wouldn't you invest a few more NP for a whole whack load of more dice that increase your dice pools with skills, and Mega-Attribute rolls you buy, and even powers? An attribute over 5 becomes meaningless since everyone will have them, in which why even bother with requiring a Body Mod to do it.

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If some wants to make the super exceptional yet not quite mega person, then they can just buy lower levels of Mega-Atts, and not bother to assign Enhancements, which comes down to the same thing - More or better dice affecting all aspects of rolls with the attribute.

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I vote to keep Improved Attribute as written in the book, or disallow it altogether.

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I'll be taking down Marko and bowing out of A&A I think. To be quite honest, any time a debate or a vote necessary in order to get a character off the ground just makes the entire event not worth the headache.

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I make good characters, not broken ones. I make fun characters, not broken ones. I don't make PCs with 12,000 miles of tentacles or spend my time writing exorbitant amounts of super powered porn. You guys can have this argument, because honestly, it's just too silly for me to bother with.

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I don't fit in the Power Gaming section. I'm not twisted or horny enough. I just want to write silly, fun, and action filled stories people will want to read for the grins and giggles of it all and this doesn't appear to the section for that.

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Well you'll not get any more smut from me. I'm not doing anything in IE anymore, and I am now considering possibly dropping out of CN because of this. I want to play in games myself, and lately, and I agree on Carver on this, that we are really lacking direction.

While I understand Rev's frustration, he also has a point. This is sort of a powergamer's paradise. While people like Rev and some others have characters taht are pretty well done, I'm mediocre at many roleplaying endeavors.

I'm sorry I've perpetrated the increase of Mature threads and regret going into them.

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If you were to do such a thing I would say to keep it in the Ultimate Aberrant sensibilities (Marvel power levels but a more grounded outlook...plus I love Rev's super suit backgrounds).

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And if you did I would want to play Lodestone.

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...but only if you REALLY feel up to running a game...the last thing we need is for everyone to get excited and it falls apart.

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Otherwise, you have my endorsement. :)

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I’m only addressing certain points the rest of the quote is getting chopped. It’s not that I’m trying to take quotes out of context; I just don’t want huge quote boxes.
Also, this thread came out grouchy. I’d apologize, but I think I mean pretty much everything I say.
AND the quote boxes are broken, so my words are in RED and everyone else is in quotes and black.
Taeli: "There is a difference between effective use of a quality/merit/Body Mod and something that is so good someone would be stupid not to take it. As we saw in QF, once it was allowed, everyone had Improved Attribute and 3-9 attributes maxed out."
No, not everyone. Just almost everyone.
Taeli: "I vote to keep Improved Attribute as written in the book, or disallow it altogether."
And I feel that IA is really disadvantageous as written in the book. You pay NP for something that you then can’t use at game start. That’s lame to me. So at game start, you dump NP into something useless and have to wait for a butt load of XP in-game. It’s like getting claws, but not being able to use them until you pay an equivalent amount of XP in the game. It’s really unfair.
And yes, IA is overpowered. It renders skills—already the most picked-on kid in the Abby schoolyard—even more obsolete. Why buy a dot in Melee when you can buy a dot of Dex and get that dot in Melee and Athletics and Legerdemain and every other skill?
I propose a fix. Allow IA. Allow people to buy atties using NP, but have atties above five cost double. So you buy extra atties and get 3 points to use. Your Dex is a four. You want a six. So you have to spend all of those points to get to six: one to raise it to five and two to raise it to six. Seven will be another two points and eight two more. Or make it 1 NP to raise points above five, which means you pay 1/3 of an NP to get from four to five, and 1 NP for each point above five. At least it will cost more, but you’ll get an immediate benefit from your outlay of points.
Dave ST: "I'll be taking down Marko and bowing out of A&A I think. To be quite honest, any time a debate or a vote necessary in order to get a character off the ground just makes the entire event not worth the headache.
I make good characters, not broken ones. I make fun characters, not broken ones. I don't make PCs with 12,000 miles of tentacles or spend my time writing exorbitant amounts of super powered porn. You guys can have this argument, because honestly, it's just too silly for me to bother with.
I don't fit in the Power Gaming section. I'm not twisted or horny enough. I just want to write silly, fun, and action filled stories people will want to read for the grins and giggles of it all and this doesn't appear to the section for that."
Dave, I’m going to be blunt. The rules are not put in place for you. They’re put in place for twinkheads and people who’ll build little gaming monsters. However, we all have to follow the rules for the twinkheads to agree to them. And because Abby’s rules suck ass, and some of the fans of Abby couldn’t build good rules with someone guiding them every step of the way, sometimes we have to rewrite the rules. That requires discussion, census-building and time. If that’s not for you, that’s fine, but don’t think that we’re telling you we thing your PCs suck. They don’t. We’re telling you, if we let you do it, we’d better be sure we like it, because other people will do it too.
The above said, Dave’s right that IE is the place to allow over the top stuff. There’s not ST to pull his hair out and watch his plots crumble like desiccated coffee cake. We can ignore any little gamer-shits that try to show me how big their penis is via their PC. IE is the place for IA, if there is one in the world.
Kamiko "Koken" Aino: "Well you'll not get any more smut from me. I'm not doing anything in IE anymore, and I am now considering possibly dropping out of CN because of this. I want to play in games myself, and lately, and I agree on Carver on this, that we are really lacking direction."
I said Infinite Earth is lacking direction, not any other game. Let me get the quote.
Coyote-Mad Scientist: "I think that the problem with IE is that it has too many possibilities and too little to hook people in. IE has been much more successful as the placeholder for OW games, to be honest."
There, right there. I said that IE needed more hooks. It is wide open but that doesn’t give anyone anywhere to start. The reason CN is doing so well, and that I think A&A will do well, is because it limits the vision of IE. It gives people a horizon. When they have a point of reference, they don’t feel lost or overwhelmed. Suddenly, they have possibilities, and characters and stories pop into their head. But they need that world to start. After A&A is going I’d like to get some linked worlds made… something to ponder.
Kamiko "Koken" Aino: "While I understand Rev's frustration, he also has a point. This is sort of a powergamer's paradise. While people like Rev and some others have characters that are pretty well done, I'm mediocre at many roleplaying endeavors.
I'm sorry I've perpetrated the increase of Mature threads and regret going into them."
Dave does not have a point. He is frustrated and lashing out at something that does bother him but isn’t the issue, or remotely related to the issue. Yes, this is the forum for powergaming on the site, yet some of the biggest anti-powergaming people (such as yours truly) are here. Dave was lashing out at mature fictions and people writing sexual characters because… I dunno. Here’s the real issue I have with his rant: if we banned mature threads and topics, we’d STILL be having a discussion about IA.
So don’t apologize for writing smut. Apologize for writing bad, sexist smut. But don’t apologize for roleplaying a sexual being. That is part of the human experience. Even if you never choose to publically display smut again, don’t let this rant stop you from writing that area of your character.
[i have to make this quick aside. Some of the hottest smut I’ve written here was done in PMs. It’s never been made public but if you don’t want to do public smut, PM smut is HAWT. :D ]
SkyLion: "Maybe the solution is to get another ST driven game going? Perhaps median in terms of power...50-60 NP tops..."
Then fucking run a median level Abby game. People who whine about not having ST games have one thing in common: they won’t run one themselves. There are people who aren’t good STs, who don’t run and don’t whine that there isn’t a game for them. This rant is aimed at the people who are capable of good story but won’t add to the variety of games on the board and then indirectly beg others to run the game they want. It doesn’t fucking work that way, because when an ST runs a game that s/he doesn’t really enjoy, the game dies horribly. Wait and watch for a game you want, or better-fucking-yet, do one yourself. Do a one-shot if you aren’t sure you’re good at it or going to like it. But don’t try to suggest that we need another game when you aren’t ready to man up and do it your own damn self.
So, no, the solution is not another game. The solution is for people to talk like civil adults and come to a mutual - or at least majority - agreement on what damaged Abby rules we're going to use.
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I would tentatively support IA, with it costing 1np per dot over 5. I would consider it even cost more, but 2np seems too high, and fractions are just an annoyance.

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However, my remaining concern with this is that it effectively changes the understood scale of attributes from 1-5 (except in very rare circumstances like Q-rating over 5) to 1-10 one, regardless what the NP cost at creation is. When you have to spend XP on it instead, there's much more effort into earning the 6th or 7th dot, IMHO.

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Just my $0.02 about the bit referring to my quote:

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I already know I'm not good when it comes to ST/DMing. It's just not my forte. I am great with world-building but not so much the finer details of plot and pacing.

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...that said, I still think my thought is valid: that it would be great to see more Aberrant ST driven games again, and if Kamiko or anyone else wants to do so, I will happily and heartily apply.

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Just my $0.02 about the bit referring to my quote:

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I already know I'm not good when it comes to ST/DMing. It's just not my forte. I am great with world-building but not so much the finer details of plot and pacing.

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...that said, I still think my thought is valid: that it would be great to see more Aberrant ST driven games again, and if Kamiko or anyone else wants to do so, I will happily and heartily apply.

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Saying more games is a good idea. But dictating NP and so on feels like you're telling people to run those games.

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And I adamantly disagree about seeing more Abby games. The system is not as good as others. The setting needs major overhauls. It's just not good.

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First... Carver's kinda hawt when she's all bitchy. Just sayin'.

Just look at it from a mechanical point of view. 1 dot of Mega-Attribute equals 9 dots of base attribute.

This is just plain stupid. So a 10 in a baseline Att is over powered but... 14 is cool (5 plus the 9 gained from the mega)?,,

Let's take it one step further and actually do some the math (the scientific way, I rolled it myself).

15 dice. (10 baseline Att, 5 in an ability), average number of successes after 500 rolls = 5.2.

10 dice +1 Mega. (5 baseline Att, 5 in an ability +1 Mega), average number of success after 500 rolls = 5.1

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I'm not convinced, plus adding [X] damage adds only throws off the balance even further.

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I propose a fix

Thank you for actually proposing a fix. I was never irritated that I couldn't have things my way, I was irritated that after I made my character, people decided to take my core concept and ban the ground work for which he was made. I reviewed the rules for character creation for both A&A and IE and no where in there did it say baseline attributes were capped at 5. Nowhere.,,

Was Marko cheesy? Fuck yeah, I mean look at his write up, the dude's a joke PC if ever there was one. He was a clown that honestly didn't fit any particular power theme. I didn't see him having powers or ever doing anything cool with fire or plasma, or anything like that. However, I personally didn't see him with any Mega-Atts either. Just the basics, some M-Stam and some M-Wits to kick off his really cool sword play. I didn't want a guy who could do [5] or [10] extra damage with his swords, I didn't see him as the kinda guy who could tap a brick wall in a certain place and a whole building would come crumbling down, I didn't see him as a guy who never slipped on ice.

Because I'm not a Twink.

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Making him the 'perfect' baseline was the logical choice, so I maxed his atts. Hell, I never even really planned on spending XP on the guy, there was no point, he had all he needed. He could coast by by bullshitting his way through life... a dip shit that made it look easy. So, people had an issue with the 10's, obviously. Okay, fine, but here's the part that chaps my ass...

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Did a single one of you even bother with a compromise? Did a single person here actually step up and consider asking me to lower them to maybe the 6 or 7 range? Did anyone try a damn thing other than "I think this should be removed from play."?

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No, jackasses, you didn't, and that right there speaks volumes for the entirety of what a player can expect from the IE section. You all represented the first impression for me as a new player, and you delivered on a ludicrously poor level.

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I'll tell you what I did get. I got people in the chat room telling me how I should make him instead. That if I want a strong character I have to take Mega-Strength. Oh, and how I'm responsible for making sure my character doesn't interfere with other people's fun. You know what's fun for me? A jack ass character with insanely high attributes, but no megas. What's fun for me is just coasting by on qualities and skill pools. But... that's not how it works in IE for the new people apparently. See apparently it's I sit around and wait for you guys to tell me what's fun for you, then in turn you tell me how I can design something that will be fun for you, then you tell me that it should also be fun for me as well... or you're going to vote it away.

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Nice place you guys have here...

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The rules are not put in place for you.

Well, said. Had I known, I would not have bothered to get involved. I've read every sheet and I've found discrepancies on several of them. It's obvious the players here have made their characters exactly the way they want them, and fudged the rules a bit to make it that way (which is fine). I followed suit and just tried to throw something together, something simple, something amusing, something that, yes... bent the rules with the whole 'can't go past 5 until you spend XP', but all in all was about as harmless as a PC could get compared to what the Twinks that call this place home, have already made.

I followed suit with a bit of creativity, but, the rules are not here for me. They're here for the Twinks. I'm not a Twink, so, obviously I'm not permitted the executive 'just try to have fun' treatment.

I'm sorry I've perpetrated the increase of Mature threads and regret going into them."

All my bitchiness and snarkiness aside for a moment, I wanted to address this point sooner, but I didn't have the time.

Look, I'll be honest, I know I give you guys a bunch of shit about the copious amounts of smut you tend to write. I know that ninety-five percent of you are guys, who create female PCs then probably proceed to rigorously callous up your hand as you fap furiously to the fantasies you create.

And seriously, it's cool. No joking. I mean really, who doesn't rub one out once in awhile, right?

You should never, ever feel the need to apologize to me, or any other person on this forum for anything you've written and certainly you should never feel ashamed. We, as authors should all accept, with a measure of maturity, that everyone here has the right to speak and write freely, regardless of their personal tastes, preferred genres, or level of skill. We have, as a community, produced some pretty fucked up fictions. Some were gross, some were racy, some were just plain... I dunno what the fuck they were (but were probably Carver's fault).

If you want to write sexually themed fictions, feel free. Murder, rape, visceral gore, then by all means do so and fuck anyone who tells you that you can't, or that you should 'tone it down', or that they were 'offended'. Fuck them. If you want to write about a monster that enjoys having his way with corpses while an 800lb gorilla jack-hammers in the doo-doo hole with a shampoo bottle at a medium pace... well, you just go right on ahead. I'll tell you all right now, while it may not be my thing (I'm not really into gorillas), I would damn sure stand in your corner and defend your right to write it if anyone ever complained.

My point was not that it's bad, or wrong, or that you shouldn't be doing it. My point was: when it's all a particular forum produces then it gets saturated with it. CN, IE, A&A... these forums are not about copious amounts of sex (murder, rape, killing, etc...) and hard core fucking. Sure, they're based in a 'real' setting so obviously sex (murder, rape, killing, etc...) can happen, it can even happen a lot, but without diversifying the plot once awhile and leading it away from sex (murder, rape, killing, etc...) then you just get a world where a newcomer like me can't tell what the fuck is going on and all he thinks you guys do here is play cards, hand out rimjobs, and circle jerk each other every chance you get.

Doesn't sound particularly fun to the guy like me who is actually looking to write something more plot based. That's why A&A drew my attention. It was the only world in IE that actually had a plot where it seemed like the PCs were fighting together as a team against a common enemy. They were together, relatively close to each other instead of spread out across the world having strange strange sex in exotic locales. They were fighting Nazi's in a steam punk setting as a group, together.

That appealed to me more than 'spend 100NP and create an over powered caricature of the sexual frenzy beast you wish you were in real life'.

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[i have to make this quick aside. Some of the hottest smut Ive written here was done in PMs. Its never been made public but if you dont want to do public smut, PM smut is HAWT. :D ]

She makes an excellent point. Try it, at least once. Seriously.
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It's the magic of quantum. Tightly corded muscles or the density like that of a reptile (little difference in shape or size but 3 to 5 times lifting capacity). Honestly the point is a moot one, considering it's a magical game where people can shoot lasers from their ass and eruptions cause money to magically fill their bank accounts with millions of dollars.

Remember Sky, this is the section where people think a '5' in an ability qualifies as 'dabbling'.

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Rev - Where you compared the probabilities of a base stat of 10 and skill 5 with base stat 5, skill 5, and M-att 1, failed to take in account that for the same number of NPs, the guy with the base stat of 10 still has 4 more dots to assign.

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And if it came across as people attacking your character after creation, at least on my part, I humbly apologize. I honestly thought, up to that point, everyone in CN at least had been using Improved Attribute as written in the TNF, so didn't think it needed reinforcement that attributes can't go above five.

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As I'm not playing in A&A, I did not feel it was my place to propose how to 'fix' your character. I just offered the one suggestion in chat that would work using the rules as written.

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A general question about suite powers:

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In general these powers duplicate level 2 powers (and can be purchased separately from a suite). However they are often weaker than the equivalent standalone power. Specifically the suite power tends to be only 2/3 as powerful but costs 50& more to use...

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My question is, for the purposes of Quantum costs to activate a suite power, can it only cost 2 QP to activate?

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Rev - Where you compared the probabilities of a base stat of 10 and skill 5 with base stat 5, skill 5, and M-att 1, failed to take in account that for the same number of NPs, the guy with the base stat of 10 still has 4 more dots to assign.

The comparison was mostly to target the few people who thought a baseline attribute of 10 compared to a 5+1 mega was simply overpowered or unbalancing because the dice pool was so high. In actuality the number of successes are equal and that doesn't factor in bonus dice from a lot of the combat enhancement enhancements (like accuracy, which increases average successes over 500 rolls to 6.4)

While I know the mechanical stand point of betting 6 Atts for a single NP is something that should be addressed by those that use it, the main point was that: it wasn't. No one addressed it but Carver and everyone else was simply 'get rid of it'. Marko only had 6's and 7's in his attributes until I simply ran out of things to buy for the character. Abilities didn't make sense because wasn't supposed to know a whole lot, he got by on raw talent, so in the end I just dumped the remainder of his NPs into his attributes. Looking back I could have dropped them into health levels and probably would have before I was spoon fed a healthy dose of how diplomacy works in IE.

Thank you though for saying something and please understand I don't think people had a problem with the character, or with me and I'm not taking any of this personally. I wasn't even mad to be honest (I stopped being mad at this place a long time ago) I was simply flabbergasted that I'm supposed to be collaborating with adults (granted they are power gamers but the law still recognizes them as 'adults') and only one among all of them actually stepped forward with a viable solution that would A) bring the IA issue one step closer to a solution and B) would allow another player to still have the build they desired and still have fun with it.

We aren't dealing with nuclear winter here people, it's a game. Removing something simply because you don't like it or because you got told you couldn't have it and someone else can is just plain stupid. It's just a game, compromise something and find a way to make it work. I hope you guys seriously consider how you handle something like this in the future.

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Dave Quote:

Removing something simply because you don't like it or because you got told you couldn't have it and someone else can is just plain stupid. It's just a game, compromise something and find a way to make it work. I hope you guys seriously consider how you handle something like this in the future.

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That wasn't actually what I proposed. I proposed that we did leave it exactly as you had used it, even though that is not the rules as written in the book, or we removed it completely because the rules as written in the book were stupid.

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I said the same damn thing as Carver and I'm rather offended and hurt by that last comment of yours. I was attempting to clear something up before it became a problem and I don't like being insulted over that. I realize it's just a game, but seriously, I was trying to be helpful because having multiple rules rulings running around a gaming space just makes for drama later....or apparently now, since even bringing it up for resolution is grounds for yanking a character and "politics".

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A general question about suite powers:

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In general these powers duplicate level 2 powers (and can be purchased separately from a suite). However they are often weaker than the equivalent standalone power. Specifically the suite power tends to be only 2/3 as powerful but costs 50& more to use...

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My question is, for the purposes of Quantum costs to activate a suite power, can it only cost 2 QP to activate?

It would be 3 QP if you use a suite power. It's the trade off for having versatility.
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Sky, the benefit comes from the ability to buy one 3rd level dot in a power, and gaining access to five or more powers. As a balance, that power isn't as good as a 2nd level power with the single function. That's how suite powers have always worked.

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That may be, but it's still better to buy Q-Bolt, TK, Flight, and Force Field out of a suite...for less xp you can get equivalent or better crunch for less NP and less QP. There are only a few powers that benefit more from being taken in a suite.

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The idea of power frameworks was a noble one, but as Marco mentioned, the execution leaves something to be desired. It's no trouble for me to build around this limitation.

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So then why not a house rule? You still have to pay the higher level 3 cost in terms of NP or XP to get the suite versatility, but the individual activation costs get dropped down to 2?

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Note: I don't actually expect anyone here to go for this, but since it is a consensus based setting, and democratic, I think it's okay to propose fixes like this.

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...in other words, it never hurts to ask. :)

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Sky, that is not a fix. It's taking an inelegant, poorly-built power and making it completely imbalanced the other way. And yes, it does hurt to ask when everyone else who's replied has made it clear that while dumb, it's a matter of balance. If you want to change suite powers, come up with a better 'fix'.

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I could see something like I have gadget-making in A&A. You can clump themed powers together, can only use one at a time and get a 1 NP break or 3 xp break on the cost of the power (to a minimum of 1 NP and 2 xp).

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So just to be official regarding Sky's proposal, because I wandered a bit there: I vote 'fuck no'.

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