Aberrant RPG - Mastery: How would you rewrite it?

[Mr Fox]

So, getting a handle on Mastery seems to be an issue. I know some folks flat don't like that the concept was ever added to the system. Personally, I like the idea but the text in the book leaves a bit to be desired. So Here is what "I" would do to improve the section on Mastery. (Rev, I consider you to be arguably the best mechanics person on the site, so I welcome any comments on improvements to the revisions below. Same goes for everyone.)

Quote:

Mastery (Original)

A nova with Quantum 6 or more can transform the scope of an existing Level 1-3 power with the Mastery Extra. Mastery improves many aspects of the power all at once. A nova gains the ability to apply Mastery at successively higher Quantum levels. The nova must acquire Mastery 1 before taking Mastery 2 and Mastery 2 before Mastery 3. Each level of Mastery always raises the power’s effective level by 1, even if the nova’s Quantum score allows regular Extras without level change. You can choose not to apply one or more of the boosts provided in the Mastery bundle - for instance, boosting each aspect of the power except Scope. Each boost you forgo counts as one level of weakness.

Ok, fairly straight forward so far, but could use some slight improvement.

Quote:

Mastery (NEW)

The Mastery extra represents the nova's extreme familiarity and expertise with a particular power; typically from long use or a great deal of practice. This extra improves many aspects of the power all at once. A nova with Mastery on a power can selectively choose not to apply one or more of the boosts provided in the Mastery bundle when using the ability - for instance, boosting each aspect of the power except Scope. Each boost you forgo counts as one level of weakness.

Requirements:

Quantum 6 for Mastery 1

Quantum 8 for Mastery 2

Quantum 10 for Mastery 3

The nova must acquire Mastery 1 before taking Mastery 2 and Mastery 2 before Mastery 3.

Each level of Mastery always raises the power’s effective level by 1, even if the nova’s Quantum score allows regular Extras without level change.

Now the rewrites get a little more necessary and complicated:

Quote:

(ORIGINAL)

Mastery 1 (Quantum 6)

* Quantum Cost. Level 1 powers cost no quantum to use. Halve the cost of Level 2 and 3 powers, rounding down.

* Scope. The power’s range and area change from meters to kilometers.

* Effect. The power’s effect doubles. Examples: Armor: Character receives +6 soak against bashing and lethal damage per dot in Armor. Quantum Bolt: lnflicts (Quantum x 6) + (power rating x 8) dice of bashing damage or (Quantum x 4) + (power rating x 8) dice of lethal damage (player’s choice).

* Duration. Concentration powers become Maintenance powers with time measured in turns (see Aberrant, p. 174). Maintenance powers’ duration changes from turns to hours or scenes.

First problem is that it says "Quantum Cost. Level 1 powers cost no quantum to use. Halve the cost of Level 2 and 3 powers, rounding down." This is wrong on two counts, first, the level of the power automatically increases by one so there is no such thing as a level one power with mastery. This should be Lvl 2 powers cost no Q to use, lvl 3 and 4 cost half. The second problem is that it is possible to buy Mastery 1 on higher level powers, but it doesn't address that at all. Personally I'd say all powers above lvl 2 with Mastery should be halved in Q cost. Mastery is after all 'mastery' and is all about how good you are at using it.

Quote:

(NEW)

Mastery 1 (Quantum 6)

* Quantum Cost. Level 2 powers cost no quantum to use (formerly Lvl 1; Powers automatically increase by one level when Mastery is purchased). Halve the cost of all powers above Lvl 2.

* Scope. The power’s range and area change from meters to kilometers.

* Effect. The power’s effect doubles. Examples: Armor: Character receives +6 soak against bashing and lethal damage per dot in Armor. Quantum Bolt: Inflicts (Quantum x 6) + (power rating x 8) dice of bashing damage or (Quantum x 4) + (power rating x 8) dice of lethal damage (player’s choice). Teleport: Quantum + (Successes x 2).

* Duration. Concentration powers become Maintenance powers with time measured in turns (see Aberrant, p. 174). Maintenance powers’ duration changes from turns to hours or scenes.

Example: Brandon "the Explorer" Simmons wants to teleport to Alpha Centauri to deliver a new compact telescope for NASA (16 successes needed). Brandon has been teleporting all over the solar system for months on Nasa's behalf and has 'mastered' his power. Brandon has Quantum 6 and so gets 6 automatic successes. He also rolls ((Perception + Teleport) x 2) in dice. Brandon has 4 Perception and 2 Mega Perception and 4 Teleport so he rolls 16 dice + 4 mega dice and gets 6,4,8,2,7,3,6,8,8,7,6,7,6,2,9,3 + 5,3,10,1 mega = 10 successes. That gives him a total of 16 successes and so he is just able reach Alpha Centuari.

I hope that was clearer than the original so I'll continue with Mastery 2 and 3.

Quote:

(NEW)

Mastery 2 (Quantum 8)

* Quantum Cost. (Adding a Mastery always raises the level of the power by 1) Level 3 powers cost no quantum to use. Level 4 powers cost one-quarter the usual quantum requirement, rounded down. Powers Level 5 and 6 cost half.

* Scope. The power’s range and area change from meters or kilometers to units of one hundred kilometers. For instance, if the original range was (Quantum + power rating) meters, now it’s (Quantum + power rating) x 100 kilometers.

* Effect. The power’s effect increases fivefold.

Examples:

Invulnerability: Provides +30 soak per dot against a specific type of attack.

Stun Attack: Does (Quantum + successes) x 5 levels of damage only to daze or knock target unconscious.

* Duration. Concentration powers become Maintenance powers, lasting (Quantum + power rating) hours before needing a renewal of quantum energy. Maintenance powers’ duration changes from turns or hours/scenes to days.

Example: With Brandon on the payroll, NASA has expanded their scientific interests beyond our own galaxy and now wants to place telescopes in the Andromeda galaxy. (22 successes needed to reach Andromeda) Brandon now has Quantum 8 and Mastery 2 on his Teleport, he's also grown over the years and now has 6 Perception, 5 Mega-Perception and 6 Teleport. With Mastery 2 he now gets [Quantum] (8) automatic successes + ((Perception + Teleport) x 5)) dice to roll. That's 60 dice + 30 mega dice + 8 auto successes. He gets 23 + 30 mega + 8 automatic successes for a total of 61 successes. With that many successes Brandon could deliver the telescopes anywhere in the Universe.

And last but certainly not least the insanity goes beyond the bounds of mortal comprehension...

Quote:

(NEW)

Mastery 3 (Quantum 10)

* Quantum Cost. Level 4 powers cost no quantum to use. Level 5 powers cost one quarter, and 6 powers cost half, rounding down.

* Scope. The power’s range and area grow to units of 10,000 kilometers. For instance, if the original range was (Quantum + power rating) meters, it’s now (Quantum + power rating) x 10,000 kilometers.

* Effect. The power’s effect increases 20-fold.

Examples:

Force Field: Quantum + (40 per success) extra soak versus bashing and lethal damage.

Disintegration: Causes (Quantum + successes) x 20 levels of aggravated damage.

* Duration. Concentration powers become Maintenance powers, lasting (Quantum + power rating) days per charge of quantum energy. Maintenance powers’ duration changes to months.

Example: Brandon has continued to explore the universe and now has Mastery 3. He would have 10 automatic successes from quantum and would be rolling Perception + Teleport x 20 dice, that is 240 dice + 100 mega dice. Distance is no longer a factor; with the merest whim Brandon could be anywhere he wanted to be... rolling is utterly pointless at this level of Mastery on Teleport.

Because the level of the power is automatically raised every time you add a mastery, that means you could not purchase a Level 5 power with Mastery 2 because it would then be a level 7 power which does not exist. Nor could you buy Mastery 1 on a level 6 power. This is a limitation of the system based on the rules provided, however, given the scale those powers are already at, adding mastery to them becomes simply ridiculous. Even Mastery 3 on a level 3 power (now lvl 6) is so broken that you might as well not roll dice.

[jameson (ST)]

If mastery increases the level of a power by 1 automatically then lvl 6 powers can never be mastered, level 5 could never gain mastery beyond 1, and lvl 4 no more than mastery 2.

[Mr Fox]

I just edited to say that very thing. *grumbles about ninjas*

And as I mentioned, when you add those higher level mastery's to the higher level powers it becomes so broken that you might as well not roll dice any further so it kinda makes sense that you can't.

Just look at my Mastery 3 on Teleport example and you'll see why.

[Courier]

Force Field: Quantum + (40 per success) extra soak versus bashing and lethal damage.

Disintegration: Causes (Quantum + successes) x 20 levels of aggravated damage.

These two examples conflict. The FF appears to be the problem since it disagrees with "Effect. The power’s effect increases 20-fold."

I think Mastery should be increasing the original number. I.e. FF: (Q+2*suc)x M (M=2,5, or 20)

Similarly, Teleport: Quantum + (Successes x 2). is also a misstatement.

However Teleport is something of an odd duck so it should be considered separately. Unlike most powers Teleport doesn't give a "dice" description in it's "effect" heading.

There are three ways to rewrite this.

1) Double the suc rolled. The problem is Teleport's suc increases it's power exponentially. 10^(Q+S)

2) Double the final result. The problem is this seem seriously low compared to the other powers. [10^(Q+S)]xM

3) Double the per succ result. I.e. (10xM)^(Q+S)

I suggest the 3rd. Or in other words, with Mastery 1; Rather than teleport 100m per succ in combat, you should teleport 200m per suc. OOC, rather than have your range increase by 10x for every suc, it should increase by 20x.

The other problem child is Growth. I suggest the increase should be applied to every Dot of power rather than just the final result. 3 dots of growth with mastery 1 should be more than just 4 dots of growth without it.

[Mr Fox]

Actually I don't think FF and Disintegrate do conflict. Disintegrate was specifically written that way in the book, it's as you say, an odd duck power. The Mastery section just lifts the way the power is written and plugs it in. Those two powers just work differently.

Teleport is an odd duck which is why I added the example of it into the text. I played with the numbers and that was what seemed to make the most sense to me. With Teleport there is a roll to determine how successful of an 'effect' you get. Perception + Teleport. Therefore the logical thing to me was you get twice the dice to roll.

1) Double suc rolled... this gives extremely wild results which doesn't seem at all likely for someone who has 'mastered' their power.

2) Same as 1, but less wild thanks to the constant of Quantum auto successes.

3) Three isn't a bad way to go and I considered this, but the down side is you need to publish a new chart for successes to the effect of:

1 suc = 4

2 suc = 80

3 suc = 1600

4 suc = 32000

5 suc = 640000

6 suc = 1280000

7 suc = 25600000

ETC...

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just seemed easier to double the dice you roll.

[El'Jinn Uu]

The First issue with powers like; Warp, TK, and Teleport is that these powers (and a few others) Gain free 'Auto-Successes' from their QR!

Since they all have charts showing what successes grant you, and they all have QR minimums (example, Warps QR minimum is 3) that means it is pointless to ever bother to mention what the First and Second successes in this case would be since, you can Never roll them... Ever.

Case and point is that WARPs' die-roll-success-chart tells you that at One-Suc from a die roll you can Warp a distance of 2Kilometers, at two-Suc you can Warp upto 20km away, and at Three-Succ you move 200km. Problem is that when you factor in the Automatic-Successes you gain from your QR [3 in this case], that mean you may Never Warp a distance 'less than' 200kilometers!

•The power Should have been made to read that "For every Dot of QR the player of the nova has over the powers Quantum Minimum, He/She/It gains a plus +1 Auto-success to their roll.

This is logical and gives one pause to consider the reasons to increasing their QR at creation (do I want those extra NP to buy More goodies, or do I want the guarrenteed and extra distance/lift from that auto-succ for my Warp/Teleport/Telekinesis?)

The Second issue is that with MASTERY I+ you ALSO gain an Automatic increase in the powers 'Scope' (the Range, not the mouth-wash). This means that Range is already Pumped-Up BEFORE you ever take into consideration any increases in range granted by the doubling effects of the 'EFFECT' aspect of MASTERY.

Example: Warp. At QR 8 and Mastery II your effective rng of your powers are increased X100 fold!! Meaning the Distance by Success Chart in the books would read like this

•SUCC/RNG•

1= 200km (not 2km)

2= 2000km (not 20km)

3= 20,000km (not 200km)

etc.............

In the light of the MASSIVE distances gained from the Dice & Auto-succ doubling nature of the 'EFFECT' aspect, this is Actually a Small drop in the hat really but, it does mean that at QR8 for instance, you can travel a minimum of 2,000,000,000km [1,200,000,000 Miles] or 4,750+/- times to the moon and back w/o even needing to roll (which Saves on QP by the way when using powers at ½ power)!

The Third issue: I rolled out how far a nova could travel at QR 6 and Mastery I with them at their absolute stat maximums of Base-Att 'Perception 6Dots', M•Per 6Dots, and Power Rating 6Dots. What I got when adding in their Auto-Succ to the total dice looked like this:

QR6 X2 =12AUTO Succ

PR6 + PER6 X2 =24Die

M•PER6 X2 =12M•DIE

Normal Die = 13+(5 nat 10 rerolls) 2=15 succ

Mega Die = 14 succ

12+15+14= [41 succ]!

That is a 20km/12miles with 41 zeros after it!!!

1.2903225806451612903225806451613e+33 AU

That comes to 20,403,688,791,527,380,593,953,662,873.949 LIGHT YEARS!!!,!!!,!!!

Again, that's [Over] 20,Octillion LY on a roll I made at on the 'Invisible Castle' Die Roller. All that is before a Quantum Max too.

Now Just how big across is the Universe again?

[El'Jinn Uu]

Another Note is that Both Mastery II And Mastery III give you an Massive range increasing Multiple (X100 and X10,000)... And yet Mastery I just tells you under the 'Scope' Aspect that "The power’s range and area change from meters to kilometers."

Now, technially this comes out as an increase of [Original Range of Power in meters] X1,000... But it sure would have been simply to say that!

ADDITIONAL NOTATION:

In regards to your comments about the QP cost reduction aspects of the Mastery Abilities, the book ment to give the reductions in cost based on the powers 'Original' and 'Unmodified' (post-power developement) level after any concerns regarding any possible weaknesses and strength level altering effects. This SHOULD have been easier said by Simply saying "Reduce QP cost of all powers By ½, rnd down"...

Wow that wasn't hard, yet they went and made it hard... Yet they made it hard.

•Mastery II should have ready similarly as' "Reduce QP cost of all powers By one-third, rnd down". and Mastery III shoulda read "Reduce QP cost of all powers By One-fourth, rnd down".

A simple fix really.

[El'Jinn Uu]

The OTHER point is in regards to what happens when you by Mastery I, II, or III and Don't get to use All four of the listed 'Mastery Aspects' because maybe your power(s) may not have need of them. IE: Let's say that you have a power W/O a range (or maybe apower that you reduced to Touch range at character creation)... So you have no use for the 'SCOPE' Aspect of Mastery... What do you get you ask/ You get an Absolutely Pathetic +1 STR to add to your power!!!

Now sometimes that is "Just what you needed" or wanted but Come On! That +1STR only costs ONE EP to buy for a level one power, 2EP for a LVL2, 3 EP for a LVL3 power, and etc!! So you get to lose out on a mastery Aspect for what, a mere +1 STR, that sucks considering that Each Aspect is equal to a Very High powered normal EXTRA (except for the "Reduced Cost" Aspect mastery).

The loss should be a FAIR trade for this loss.

MY SUGGESTION: Let the player(s) "Trade-off" one of these "SUPER-Extras" (Mastery Aspects that is) for an appropriate "Normal Extra" instead, or if they players DoNOT wish to do this, instead grant them +5 Strengths for Each aspect they Reduce the Mastery extra by. This grants the players some VERY fun power versitility and make them feel like they are Not getting shafted.

EXAMPLE: Ray-Leotta is a nova who has Just gone through the second eruption known as "Second Rebirth", also Known as QR6. He has the Flight power at ••• dots and the extra "Underwater" for the power. Now Ray has choosen to add Mastery I to his Flight power but has choosen to for-go the "Range" aspect in return for the normal extra "Reduced Cost" extra found in the books. He did This instead to show that his PC no-longer needs to pay for his power as it has develpoed quite far.

Further more Each one of these 'Aspects' should be an available extra for when the nova has reached QR 6+.

[Dave ST]

At any rate...

The problem is that the Mastery extras should really be removed completely. Not because they're twinkish or broken, but because your dealing with a time line and continuity. As it stands, by the Trinity era, almost all novas are insane and wielding Q6 powers. Mastery is not an inviable option for a massive percentage for them either.

There is no reason the Trinity universe even happened. Statistically, the novas won, period, hands down. Especially if one of them had a Quantum-Bolt (Area) + Mastery 3. That's a blast radius of 6,215 miles centered... so it will destroy everything withing 12,430 miles.

The United States is roughly 3,300 miles, coast to coast.

Now the nova Power Maxes and achieves a single success! The Area is doubled widening the destructive power to a whopping 24,430 miles!

The Earth is 24,914 miles.

Statistically, this can be done with Mastery 1 or even 2 just as easily. There was no reason the novas had to leave Earth when the Chinese threatened the planet with orbital bombardment. Novas can do anything whenever, where ever, and how ever they want. Once Mastery 1 kicks in on a soak power there is nothing man made that can hurt that nova, even THOR.

What do they care, really? Even if the planet was wiped out they control radiation, ecology, biology, etc... With a wave of the hand all traces of radiation would disappear (it'd take a few months for the nova make his/her rounds, but they'd get it all). They control life itself so they'd just jump start the ecology back into full swing and if they screwed it up, not a problem, they'll hop back in time and keep doing it til they get it right.

Statistically speaking, Trinity never happened, the novas won and there is nothing any human or piece of technology can do that would change that. No Psion can match an Aberrant, no nuke and no god cannon.

They win, period.

[Mr Fox]

El,

You are missing one thing on Warp... Scope doesn't refer to the distance you can go, but rather how far away you are able to open your warp. In other words instead of opening it within a few feet of me I could set down the opening several miles from me. The only use I could think of for this is if the nova wants to be lazy and open a warp for a friend to go somewhere else and doesn't feel like first warping to the friends location. Not all aspects of the powers will apply to all powers. Scope on Teleport for example is meaningless.

Dav,

That's a valid point. The one counter argument is that it really wasn't Novas vs Humans, it was really nova's vs novas (and their human friends). You are right though, the novas chose to leave, they really weren't 'forced' to do anything.

On the other hand, I'd argue that very few novas had Mastery at the point that the war broke out and that only Mal and a handful even had the Q rating for Mastery 2, and just because you have the Q rating doesn't mean you necessarily buy it.

By the time of the Trinity era I'm sure that's changed considerably. I also got the impression that most of the novas that left were more occupied with their own business by then so no longer really cared about Earth.

[El'Jinn Uu]

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

The problem is that the Mastery extras should really be removed completely. Not because they're twinkish or broken, but because your dealing with a time line and continuity. As it stands, by the Trinity era, almost all novas are insane and wielding Q6 powers. Mastery is not an inviable option for a massive percentage for them either.

There is no reason the Trinity universe even happened. Statistically, the novas won, period, hands down. Especially if one of them had a Quantum-Bolt (Area) + Mastery 3. That's a blast radius of 6,215 miles centered... so it will destroy everything withing 12,430 miles.
The United States is roughly 3,300 miles, coast to coast.
Now the nova Power Maxes and achieves a single success! The Area is doubled widening the destructive power to a whopping 24,430 miles!
The Earth is 24,914 miles.
Statistically, this can be done with Mastery 1 or even 2 just as easily.

Yeah, that whole area effect thing was what I aswell was going to write out lastnight/this morning, but by 4AM I was starting to write gibberish about singing trees and realized I was loosing conscience Fast, so I had to post what I could before I nodded off (I'd originally written out the above points, only to have I-explorer crash when i tried to hit the "Submit" button and had to start over)


Anywho, the REAL problem is that Mastery starts off right out of the gate WAY to powerful AND QR is WAY to easy to get as, Unlike say, EXALTED who gave Actual training times And rules for how long till you could buy up you Essence, Aberrant just "Left it up to the players and the ST's "Good judgement"-(Yeah right)... That's just you yourself.

First Off: QR Needs to have a 'minimum time frame' till you can reach the next level (Althought Taint and or expending ever larger amounts of EP should respectivily speed this up as there will Always be those who Train that hard, + those rare annomilies).

Second: Face it, You get Way to 'GIGANTIC' of a Range increase given to you when you Reach Mastery I, which just as Dave pointed out translates over to AOE as well and, even though your Q-Bolt may be weak in damage, you can now take out ALL of NY in one shot!

You've got QR's 6,7,8,9, and 10 to spreand out your Mastery over and yet you only see an increase at 6,8, and 10... Leaving out QR's 7 and 9 as odd ducks that Only give you the Natural QR die roll bonuses And some extra free 'Extras' slots for lower level powers...

How about we spread the love I say Not and Give Mastery I so much outright power right outofthegate with a X1000 increase to scope (Which BTW is higher than what both Mastery 2 and 3 give you)?

EXAMPLE: (One of many)
Mastery I
•QR min: 6
•Effect: The nova sees their Die pools (and static power numbers) in and general effects increase by 50% over normal (as opposed to a full on doubling). this May or Maynot include Auto successes gained from QR for example.
•Scope: The powers see their Range increases by 100X's and Area by X10 it's effective base.
•Reduce cost: The nova powers are reduce in cost by ½ rounding UP, not down not up, with the exception of reducing cost to below 1 which becomes Zero in this case.
•Duration: Consentration powers become Maintainance at the cost of one QP and Powers see their time frames increase one step (IE: those measured in Turns increase to Minutes, Minutes to Scenes, scenes to hours, Hours to days, to weeks, to months, to years, to decades, to centuries, to millinia...etc).

Sub-Mastery I
•QR Min 7
•Unlike true extras, this does Not raise the powers level but does cost as usual for an extra that does.
•Effect: The novas dice pools and static gains increase by x2 as per normal.
•Scope: Range increases from X100 to X1000 times base, and AOE increases to X100 original base.
•Cost: Original base QP cost is One-third base (prior to mastery I) rounded down to a minimum of zero.
•Duration:Consentration and Maintainance powers may switch between each other at will. Powers see their time frames increase one additional step above mastery I (IE: Minutes increase to Scenes, scenes to mulitiple hours of 3, Hours to days, to weeks, to months, to years, to decades, to centuries, to millinia...etc.) Any increase over millinia becomes permanent for the cost of 1 permanent WP.


Mastery II
•QR Min 8
•Effect: The novas dice pools and static gains increase by x5 as per normal.
•Scope: Range increases from Base X1000 meters (X1KM) to Base X100 KM. AOE increases to base in kilometers.
•Cost: Original base QP cost is One-fourth (prior to mastery I) rounded down to a minimum of zero.
•Duration:Consentration and Maintainance powers may switch between each other at will. Powers see their time frames increase one additional step above Sub-Mastery I (IE: Scenes increase to mulitiple hours of 3, Hours to days, to weeks, to months, to years, to decades, to centuries, to millinia...etc.) Any increase over centuries becomes permanent for the cost of 1 permanent WP and Increases over millinia becomes permanent for 3 Temp WP.


Sub-Mastery II
•QR Min 9
•Unlike true extras, this does Not raise the powers level but does cost as usual for an extra that does.
•Effect: The novas dice pools and static gains increase by x10 over base.
•Scope: Range increases to Base X1000 KM. AOE increases to base in kilometers X100.
•Cost: Original base QP cost is One-fifth (prior to mastery I) rounded down to a minimum of zero.
•Duration:Consentration and Maintainance powers may switch between each other at will. Powers see their time frames increase one additional step above Mastery II (Hours to days, to weeks, to months, to years, to decades, to centuries...etc.) Any increase over decades becomes permanent for the cost of 1 permanent WP and Increases over centuries becomes permanent for 3 Temp WP. Over centuries time is measured as permanent.

Mastery III
•QR Min 10
•Effect: The novas dice pools and static gains increase by x20 over base.
•Scope: Range increases to Base X10,000 KM. AOE increases to base in kilometers X1000.
•Cost: Original base QP cost is One-sixth base, rounded down to a minimum of zero.
•Duration:Consentration and Maintainance powers may switch between each other at will. Powers see their time frames increase one additional step above Mastery II (Days to weeks, to months, to years, to decades...etc.) Any increase over years becomes permanent for the cost of 1 permanent WP and Increases over decades becomes permanent for 3 Temp WP. Time over decades is measured as permanent.


•Quantum Rating Acquisition Times: The minimum time to acquire a new Quantum rating is a number of months equal to [intended rating x 4 months]. This can can be reduced by spending more EP. Reduce minimum acquisition time by one month for every [intented Rating x2] additional EP spent, thus reducing the minimum acquistioning time for going from Quantum 5 to Qunantum 6 down to one month would reqire the player spend an additional 276 EP.
For every point of permanent taint the novas player takes they may reduce total final cost by ½ and Acquisition time by four. Regardless of the novas actual level of taint he/she/it will gain one Aberration for every point of permanent taint taken in this way after the first. more over the first aberrantion gain must be one of a 'mental' nature.

[Dawn OOC]

Fox, let me ask this question: when you want to "improve the section on Mastery" do you want to keep the same feel and flavor of Mastery? Or are you looking for a genuine fix to the system to balance out the inequalities of Mastery?

[El'Jinn Uu]

Modified Above Mastery suggestions

I just wish we could get creative enough to do both, after all humans can be Quite ingenuitive when we actually put our minds to the task.

The feel of Aberrant IS very central to it's popularity (amoung those who Do like it) and I have found time and time again that if no-one steps forward in time to offer a good enough fix, it seems to end up that only the most nerdiest, most tastless, and worst of ideas get picked as the New standard.

The reason for this appears to be that someone with no real quality of taste or true love of the product (whatever it may be) always tend to be much more vocal towards the powers that be. Considering that it is Very possible that W.W. or some other company may very likely, sometime in the future, chose to pick up Aberrant. Do you really want that said somebodies "getting creative" with Aberrant?

Creative license has destroyed W-hay to many cool things.

[BlueNinja]

Usually, I see a house rule to the effect of "PC must have power at 5+ dots to purchase Mastery. Why that wasn't incorporated in the original description, I don't know, but IMO it's retarded to have someone with, say, Forcefield 1 (Mastery).

As for the rest of the aspects of the power, I don't wee a problem with the x2 effect. The range boost is basically x1000, which is ridiculous (a x10 bonus would be better), and the quantum cost should simply stay where it was (ignoring the level raise granted by Mastery, so that the afore mentioned Flight Mastery would cost 2qp to activate, though it is a level 3 power).

[Mr Fox]

Dawn,

I was thinking along the lines of a 'Revised edition'. Not so much a full rewrite as a 'fix it to be understandable'. However, I'm not opposed to going deeper and balancing the power properly. I would want to see it retain it's impressiveness though.

BN,

I'm totally on board with making it a rule that you can't get Mastery on a power that you don't have at 5 dots. After all, if you haven't 'mastered' it how can you have Mastery. I wouldn't let someone take it in a game I was running if they didn't have the power at 5.

El,

I don't know about spreading out the mastery over 5 levels like that for two reasons. One, because it already costs quite a bit to buy, and two, very few games ever reach above Q6. As it is, I've never seen a game go high enough for someone to reach Mastery 2. Think about the cost to get there.

Speaking of that... what is the cost to purchase mastery? I should include a good explanation of that as well in the text.

["X"]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

I'm totally on board with making it a rule that you can't get Mastery on a power that you don't have at 5 dots. After all, if you haven't 'mastered' it how can you have Mastery. I wouldn't let someone take it in a game I was running if they didn't have the power at 5.

Because Mastery is just a name for an Extra and not a level of experience. It's an indication of the power available at Q6 and above rather than knowledge gained through constant use.

Neither is having 5 dots in a power a mark of experience either. A newly erupted nova could come into his or her new life with 4 dots in a power, and someone who practiced for 2 years never achieve more than 3 dots.

It can be the result of experience, but it is not necessarily the case. On the same token, why should someone have the Extra Reduced Quantum Cost if they don't have 5 dots? How can they know how to use it efficiently when they haven't learned all there is to learn?

Another thing to consider is how much the PC within the game world knows. Does someone at 4 dots realize there might be untapped potential yet to max in the form of that missing dot, or is he or she under the illusion they have reached the pinnacle of their potential until another nova proves it otherwise?

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: Fox

Ok, fairly straight forward so far, but could use some slight improvement.

Quote:

Mastery (NEW)
The Mastery extra represents the nova's extreme familiarity and expertise with a particular power; typically from long use or a great deal of practice. This extra improves many aspects of the power all at once. A nova with Mastery on a power can selectively choose not to apply one or more of the boosts provided in the Mastery bundle when using the ability - for instance, boosting each aspect of the power except Scope. Each boost you forgo counts as one level of weakness.

Requirements:
Quantum 6 for Mastery 1
Quantum 8 for Mastery 2
Quantum 10 for Mastery 3
The nova must acquire Mastery 1 before taking Mastery 2 and Mastery 2 before Mastery 3.
Each level of Mastery always raises the power’s effective level by 1, even if the nova’s Quantum score allows regular Extras without level change.

Problem: As "X" has stated above, "Mastery" does not (necessarily) imply either skill or experience in the power with the Mastery extra (of whatever level) applied to it. Don't get me wrong - it does imply "mastery" - just not mastery of what everyone always seems to think it does.

What the name refers to is mastery of one's Quantum trait. Take a look at the descriptive headers for each category of Power Levels available once a nova exceeds a Quantum Trait of 6: you have "Authority", "The Beginnings of Mastery" and "Consummate Mastery". These are descriptions for powers that no nova is ever going to just erupt with. At some point or another, every nova who reaches the upper levels of Quantum is only going to have a single dot in an "Authority", "Mastery" or "Consummate Mastery" power.

So why are they described that way? Because they are speaking of a nova's mastery of his or her own Quantum Trait in regards to one or more of their powers, not to the power itself.

And besides, as soon as a nova exceeds Quantum 5, having 5 dots in a power no longer constitutes "mastery" of it anyway...

Originally Posted By: Fox

First problem is that it says "Quantum Cost. Level 1 powers cost no quantum to use. Halve the cost of Level 2 and 3 powers, rounding down." This is wrong on two counts, first, the level of the power automatically increases by one so there is no such thing as a level one power with mastery. This should be Lvl 2 powers cost no Q to use, lvl 3 and 4 cost half. The second problem is that it is possible to buy Mastery 1 on higher level powers, but it doesn't address that at all. Personally I'd say all powers above lvl 2 with Mastery should be halved in Q cost. Mastery is after all 'mastery' and is all about how good you are at using it.

Problem: When you buy the "Reduced Cost" extra for a Level 1 power, it becomes a Level 2 power. Therefore, according to the logic you use above, there is no such thing as a Level 1 power with the Reduced Cost extra either. You're nitpicking over semantics here, and while I do see some validity to it (this is hardly the first time that I've seen an Aberrant player express confusion over this aspect of the Mastery extras) it's still just semantics.

Look at it this way: The power you're applying Mastery 1 to is most likely going to be a Level 1, 2 or 3 power. Level 1 powers have their costs reduced to nothing, but are now raised to Level 2, while Level 2 and 3 powers each have their costs cut in half, but are raised to levels 3 and 4, respectively.

I'm honestly not sure why this one aspect of the power causes so much confusion. I admit that the wording could have been better, but thirty seconds of careful consideration makes it clear what the writer's are saying.

Reducing costs for any level of power that Mastery is applied to: At first, I was inclined to disagree with this, but after consideration, I have to say I think that's a good way to handle things.

Originally Posted By: Fox

Various adjustments to the Effect aspect of Masteries 1, 2 and 3

Problem: I'm sorry, but your logic here is badly flawed.

In the case of Teleport you're doubling up on Mega-dice now; you're doing it inconsistently; and in so doing, you're basically introducing an entirely new mechanic into the game, not clarifying an old one. And this is to say nothing of the fact that, in the case of every single power that I can find that uses a straightforward (Power+Trait) dice pool for determining effects, the dice pools and the effects are two separate things.

When you roll a single success for Teleport you can travel 2km and that is the "Effect" - the dice you rolled to get that success are not. Mastery 1 doubles that to 4km. And the logic holds all the way up the line; it holds for all of the other powers that work using this kind of straightforward dice pool; it's a good, consistent system. Why screw with it?

Now, in regards to the discussion about how the multiplier works: Courier was right. FF should become ((Q-Rating x (M-Multiplier)) + (Successes x (2 x M-Multiplier))). Saying that the Quantum rating for a power like Force Field shouldn't be multiplied because it doesn't have a multiplier in the original description isn't logical. The power description for Disintegration doesn't provide a multiplier either. Just because one power simply provides a value of "x" while the other power provides a value of ("x" + "y"), the addition of "y" doesn't suddenly qualify the second power for the multiplier that Mastery provides, nor is the first power disqualified because it lacks the "+ y" element of the second. And the necessary addition of a closed set of parentheses on the second power (Disintegration) sure as hell isn't the qualifier.

They both have a starting (but unstated) multiplier of "1". So either the given description for FF on Mastery 3 is correct, and Disintegration should never qualify for a multiplication of its base Effects, or the description is wrong, and they should both qualify for the multiplier across the board.

If you're still not convinced, look at it this way: the Quantum trait defines the base "effect" for Force Field. This is plain as the nose on the Force Field user's face. So, as an "effect", it too should have the x2, x5 and x20 multiplier attached to it. This is basic Logic 101, folks.

Originally Posted By: Fox

Speaking of that... what is the cost to purchase mastery? I should include a good explanation of that as well in the text.

It has the same cost that raising the level of a power from one to the next always does...

Originally Posted By: Aberrant: Core Book, pg. 230

The cost of [raising a power's level] is equal to the total difference between the costs of all the dots without the Extra and the cost of all the dots with the Extra. A character may halve this cost by taking a point of Taint at the time the Extra is purchased.

And, just in case you were wondering how this works with powers above level 3...

Originally Posted By: Aberrant: Player's Guide, pg. 99

Trait Increase and Cost:
Level 4: Current Rating x 9
Level 5: Current Rating x 12
Level 6: Current rating x 15
New Trait:
Level 4: 12
Level 5: 15
Level 6: 18

So, if you want to raise a Level 2 power with 5 dots in it to a Level 3 power it's:

Code:

            Level 2     Level 3     Total     Difference
First Dot:   6xp          9xp        6/9         3xp
Second Dot:  5xp          7xp       11/16        5xp
Third Dot:  10xp         14xp       21/30        9xp
Fourth Dot: 15xp         21xp       36/51       15xp
Fifth Dot:  20xp         28xp       56/79       23xp             

Now, let's say you want to raise a Level 3 power with 5 dots in it to a Level 4 power:

Code:

            Level 3     Level 4     Total     Difference
First Dot:   9xp         12xp        9/12        3xp
Second Dot:  7xp          9xp       16/21        5xp
Third Dot:  14xp         18xp       30/39        9xp
Fourth Dot: 21xp         27xp       51/66       15xp
Fifth Dot:  28xp         36xp       79/102      23xp             

I believe the numbers change after Level 4, but the mathematical formula does not, so I see no reason for confusion here.

[VileBill]

Hmmm. How would I re-write it?

Something along the lines of:

Give it up you power-gaming taint-gobblers. There is no need for anything like Mastery in the game unless you're an empty-souled trogladyte that didn't deserve the love that Mommy and Daddy gave you. Crawl under a rock and die.

Something like that, yeah.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

Dawn,
I was thinking along the lines of a 'Revised edition'. Not so much a full rewrite as a 'fix it to be understandable'. However, I'm not opposed to going deeper and balancing the power properly. I would want to see it retain it's impressiveness though.

Fair enough. I will be zero help (unlike dear VB, who was -100 help ) because I don't think Mastery should be as powerful as it is. It's waaaaaay too much power unless you're in a game that powerful, and then the villians are that powerful... and what's the point? Just the way I see it. I'm interested in following this, mostly because I gain insight into the game when you guys have these conversations. But I'm afraid that I can't help you with your intended goal, Fox. Good luck with it.

[El'Jinn Uu]

Originally Posted By: Mr Fox

El, I don't know about spreading out the mastery over 5 levels like that for two reasons. One, because it already costs quite a bit to buy, and two, very few games ever reach above Q6. As it is, I've never seen a game go high enough for someone to reach Mastery 2. Think about the cost to get there.

Speaking of that... what is the cost to purchase mastery? I should include a good explanation of that as well in the text.

Oh no, don't get me wrong, what I put out is in No way intended to be a True honest fix, in fact one would have to be crazy to think that what I wrote is in anyway a truely good and or solid idea. I just put it out there so as to give ideas that can be picked apart and broken down and built back up into something else. My idea(s) are just thrown out there. Think of what i wrote as an old car that may best be used/cannibalized for spare parts sometime in the future. The goal here is to Eventually get around to making something we can mostly all agree upon as helpful. As to the cost of all extras, I should have put out for everyone the math for Extras years ago I forgot.
(((Granted that you ONLY asked for the Math on Mastery but I felt like there are enough new players that spider the web here that They may like the math flushed out for ALL extras)))
And Yes, this Was just covered above by 'Kazuo'


EXTRAS
Oddly enough the cost for extras that raise the level of a power are Always the same regardless of what the present level is that you are rasing it from. The cost to add an extra to a level 2 at three dots (•••) is exactly the same [i have found] as it is to add an extra to a level 3 power also with three (•••) dots in it.
So the bestest of ways to chart it out is to say this;

THE MATH SCIENCE OF EXTRAS By El'Jinn.
Regardless of the powers level, Starting with one dot in a level one, a level two, a level three, four, five or sixth level power, adding one extra to a power with one dot (•) in it costs 3EP.
Adding one Extra to a L1 power at one dot (•) will cost you 3EP and make the power a L2 power... Adding Another Extra to it while Still only possesing a single dot (Again •) Still will only cost you 3EP to do and will raise the powers level from L2 to L3.

For Every dot you increase a power by the cost increases the total by +2 for two dots, +4 for 3, +6 for 4 dots, plus +8 additional...etc.

So in this way it looks like this:
COST/DOTS:
3EP •
+2=
5EP ••
+4=
9EP •••
+6=
15EP ••••
+8=
23EP •••••
+10=
33EP ••••• •
+12=
45EP ••••• ••
+14=
59EP ••••• •••
+16=
75EP ••••• ••••
+18=
93EP ••••• •••••

I.E: The player of a nova the an L2 Q-Bolt with three dots (•••) in it wants to add the "Armor Pen" extra to it. At QR 4 the player must first add up the Total cost to by a 'L2 Quantum Bolt' from one dot upto three dots. The Math is (6 to buy, +5 at two dots, +10 at 3 dots [6+5+10=21EP])
The play must Now do the same for the same Q-Bolt but buying it from the ground up as though it wher a level 3 Q-bolt instead. The Math is (9 to buy one dot, +7 more for the second dot, +14 more for the third dot [9+7+14=30EP].
The differance between them is 9EP, thus the cost for the 'Armor Pen' extra will be 9EP.

If the player had purchased that same Q-Bolt with enough weaknesses to lower it to a level one power and then, over the months of training, he/she had also gotten it up to three dots and chosen to give it the 'Armor Pen' Extra, it would STILL cost him/her 9EP to do so as the total differance between
a totalled up level 1 of three dots and the totalled up L2 power of three dots is 9EP as well...
The Math (3EP to buy first dot in power, +3 for the second dot, +6 for the third dot [3+3+6=12EP])
We already can see from the above 'prior' math that a L2 Q-bolt of three dots equals ot to 21EP.
The differance between 12 and 21 is 9... 9EP.





At Quantum Rating 6+ powers lower level than L4 may purchase One extra for a reduced cost equal to the [Powers level] in EP and the powers level remains unchanged. This mean that at QR6 you may by a single extra for a L1 power, that has no other extras attatched to it, for 1EP! A level 2 power will cost you 2EP, and a level 3 power adding the extra would cost 3EP to buy.
•••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••••••• •••
mORE dOTS!!!

[El'Jinn Uu]

Originally Posted By: VileBill

Hmmm. How would I re-write it?

Something along the lines of:

Give it up you power-gaming taint-gobblers. There is no need for anything like Mastery in the game unless you're an empty-souled trogladyte that didn't deserve the love that Mommy and Daddy gave you. Crawl under a rock and die.

Something like that, yeah.

For once I actually do Not agree with you on something. This game IS all about people becoming demi-gods, becoming gods, becoming FrEaKy powerful All-Father like mega-beings and then hitting BUDDHA-hood and then asking the question "Why am I still here on earth and caring about the flesh?"

If YOU play the darn game as a "Strictly Wham-Bamb-Shoot Em up Mam" where you just want a bunch of energy blasters running around fighting crime and stompping on bank robbers heads than Yes, I suppose Mastery I, II, and III are all to be considered to be Cheat'O'Riffic and you must have hated EXALTED and Scion AND Marvel FASERIP and anything else where Silver Surfer-esque' types are evolving into the context of a given game system and Aberrant, True to the intent Aberrant ain't for you...

See, at the Heart of Aberrant it has never been JUST about the Pew-pew-pew. Aberrant is a jump into the meta-physical questions that people ask about Life, love, hate, revenge, greed, corruption, depression, angst, pathos, & rage, fear, & friendship, racism, reverse-racism, reverse-reverse-racism, what is right and what is rightious. It's about; politics, religion, anti-religiousness, and the anti-religiousness that lead you (in a round about way) right on back to being quasi-religious. It is about society and what constitutes a Proper order to and of things when one can write their own laws.
But Most of all, Aberrant is All about the Expoloration of it all. From outter space and the universe, to innerspace and the Microverse, and to the expanse of the mind and the grand Macroverse question. Are we but little animals perambulating on the back of bigger animals?


And YES, it is also a game where (for the first time in White Wolf) you Really get to just go around Blasting sht and having some cute-loose fun. That means that the book is NOT ment to betaken so d@mb serious and that people like FOX shouldn't ask questions like this one.
In fact, the intent of the writters was to make a cut-loose, fun and yet Still phylosophical game where stuff like this is discussed. You are Supposedta make up new powers for instance, yet far to many here call you out as a munchkin, or blasts you for Daring to consider a NON-book power instead of the helpful advice that a poster may Actually be looking for...

So yeah,
Fox (nor anyone else here) is/are Not being Munchkins and, if you think otherwise, than maybe you should be playing a more "Low-Key" game... One with Allot of restrictive rules against the players... One where everyone goes is forced to wear Safty padds and reflector on their person and go around with a big "No you can't do that so Shut-up and don't even ask about it" stamps on their foreheads...<<<Except as always elitists, who feel they have the 'Carte blanche' due to Decades of D&D rping seniority over everyone else...>>>


If that is you, then may I suggest going over to Kevin Seimbiedas "Palladiumbooks.com" message boards and looking-up "Heroes Unlimited"! It'sa a Great "No you can't but we can so shut the f-up and follow the messy rules" system.

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: El'Jinn Uu

EXTRAS
Oddly enough the cost for extras that raise the level of a power are Always the same regardless of what the present level is that you are rasing it from. The cost to add an extra to a level 2 at three dots (•••) is exactly the same [i have found] as it is to add an extra to a level 3 power also with three (•••) dots in it.
So the bestest of ways to chart it out is to say this;

THE MATH SCIENCE OF EXTRAS By El'Jinn.
Regardless of the powers level, Starting with one dot in a level one, a level two, a level three, four, five or sixth level power, adding one extra to a power with one dot (•) in it costs 3EP.
Adding one Extra to a L1 power at one dot (•) will cost you 3EP and make the power a L2 power... Adding Another Extra to it while Still only possesing a single dot (Again •) Still will only cost you 3EP to do and will raise the powers level from L2 to L3.

For Every dot you increase a power by the cost increases the total by +2 for two dots, +4 for 3, +6 for 4 dots, plus +8 additional...etc.

Sorry, El'Jinn, don't mean to rain on your parade, but as I mentioned in my last post; the math does change at levels higher than 4 - though your point-mapping is correct for levels 3 and below.

The reason the costs change above level four is because the multiplier increase changes it's Value of Increase. From Levels 1 through 4 the multiplier increases by 2 each step (x3, x5, x7, x9), but at Level 5 the multiplier increases by 3 (x12), leading to a different progression of cost for buying an Extra.

The written out formula for determining the cost of an Extra at any Level is actually somewhat complicated. At all levels, the cost of adding an Extra (that will cause the power to raise one level) to a power with a single dot is 3xp, so that's the Base Value (BV), if you like.

From there, for powers of Level equal or less than 3, it becomes (BV + (2*[Total of all previous Dots in Power]). So if you're adding an Extra to an L2 power with 3 dots in it, the cost is (3 + (2*(1+2)=9xp). If you're adding an Extra to an L2 power with 5 dots in it, the cost is (3 + (2*(1+2+3+4)=23xp).

For powers with a level equal to or greater than 4, the BV stays the same, but the 2 in the Multiplier becomes a 3. So if you're adding an Extra to an L4 power with 6 dots in it, the cost is (3 + (3*(1+2+3+4+5)=48xp). If you're adding an Extra to an L5 power with 7 dots in it, the cost is (3 + (3*(1+2+3+4+5+6)=66xp).

Yeah, I know, it's kind of complicated, which is why I didn't bring it up in the last post, but once you get the hang of it, that's all there is to it.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

Lots of complicated stuff explained really well.

See, this is why I keep you around. And why I read these mechanics arguments. Cent/Kazuo and Dave/Reven always help me understand the game better. Thanks guys, you're awesome.

[Kazuo]

Awww, thanks Dawn!

[Dave ST]

[Dawn OOC]

Cool, two manly blushes with one post. Awesome.

I had an idea for Mastery that would make it more palpatable, and I wanted to throw it out. What difference would it make if it were a level 4 power that linked to another (without adding the Weakness extra)? Each dot in it allows you to add something to the linked power, so that by the time you reached 5 dots, you had all the stuff that Mastery gives you at once as an extra?

It would take more xp to get there, but Mastery would keep it's awesomeness. And if you didn't want to go all the way to 5 dots (as player or ST) you can stop at a lower level. I haven't done more than come up with this at work, so if the idea has merit, I'd have to sit down and work on the specifics. In general, what do you guys think?

[Justin OOC]

interesting

[BlueNinja]

Dawn: Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

The PC takes Mastery as an extra, which automatically raises its level. (Q-Bolt goes to level 3, Biolum goes to level 2, etc).

For each dot they have in the power, they get to choose one of the applicable boosts that Mastery provides. (Q-Bolt (Mastery) 1 could get the RQC, or the range bonus, but not both. Q-Bolt (Mastery) 2 could get both.)

[El'Jinn Uu]

AWE shazbot

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: BlueNinja

Dawn: Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

The PC takes Mastery as an extra, which automatically raises its level. (Q-Bolt goes to level 3, Biolum goes to level 2, etc).
For each dot they have in the power, they get to choose one of the applicable boosts that Mastery provides. (Q-Bolt (Mastery) 1 could get the RQC, or the range bonus, but not both. Q-Bolt (Mastery) 2 could get both.)

No. Though that was the other idea I had, which I didn't mention earlier because I like this one better.

What I was talking about was the PC takes Mastery as a 4th level power. At the time of purchase, the player selects the power is it 'linked' to - let's say Forcefield. So now the PC gets the benefit of the first dot of Mastery applied to Forcefield - again, purely as an example, say it's the Range bonus. Now, his Forcefield has the range bonus, at the cost of a dot of a fourth level power.

Why do it this way? Because Mastery as an extra gives way to much. It duplicates several other extras as well as granted ridicious amounts of POWAH. In my mind, Mastery doesn't mesh with the rest of the extras, and never should have been one.

Yes, Kaz/Cent, I know that there are no mechanics that cover this in Aberrant. I guess the Linking weakness is similar, but in this case, having the power Mastery tied to another power wouldn't grant it weakness points toward strength points.

Blue, does that make more sense?

[Justin OOC]

Mastery requires q6

which almost always requires approval of some kind to get....

[BlueNinja]

Dawn: I understand it, but it seems to add an unnecessary amount of complication. Of course, that's true of virtually everything in the APG.

[Kazuo]

Dawn's Idea: My primary concerns about this suggestion are:

1) It is (as Dawn has already pointed out) a new mechanic, and those always have unforeseen consequences.

2) There are only four aspects of Mastery, not five.

3) Many powers wouldn't need all four levels of the Mastery Extra. For instance, the example you used, Dawn, Force Field. It has a Range of "Self" (normally), so there's no point in worrying about purchasing that one. This would also be true of many other powers - for instance Armor - which already has a Duration of "Permanent", a cost of "Free" and a Range of "Self", meaning you'd only really need the Effect portion which could be purchased for all of 12xp. Even in a PbP game, with their egregiously slow rates of XP-awards, that's not very expensive.

4) The increasing cost of purchasing each succeeding dot of this new "Power" would deter many gamers from ever maxing the Extra out at all. Instead, many players would choose the portions of Mastery that they want the most for that particular power (most likely the Scope, Effect, or Cost portions) for relatively little XP and then never bother purchasing the rest of the Extra (which they probably will feel they can live happily without).

Those are my thoughts about this for now. If I come up with anything else, I'll post it. Until then: Discuss!!!

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

1) It is (as Dawn has already pointed out) a new mechanic, and those always have unforeseen consequences.

It's not a new mechanic. It's an old mechanic broken down into its base parts that the players are 'charged' for. Whether yo use dots or an extra, the mechanic hasn't changed at all.

Instead of getting them all at once, you're 'charged' for each individual aspect. Mechanically, it all functions the same.

Quote:

2) There are only four aspects of Mastery, not five.

Then only four dots. Or as many dots as are required. Some powers that have fewer parameters are easier to master. Mastery also adds parameters that some powers didn't already possess...

Quote:

3) Many powers wouldn't need all four levels of the Mastery Extra. For instance, the example you used, Dawn, Force Field. It has a Range of "Self" (normally), so there's no point in worrying about purchasing that one. This would also be true of many other powers - for instance Armor - which already has a Duration of "Permanent", a cost of "Free" and a Range of "Self", meaning you'd only really need the Effect portion which could be purchased for all of 12xp. Even in a PbP game, with their egregiously slow rates of XP-awards, that's not very expensive.

This is a valid debate, but mastery as a whole pretty cheap compared to what it grants you so really, it's not too far fetched.

Quote:

4) The increasing cost of purchasing each succeeding dot of this new "Power" would deter many gamers from ever maxing the Extra out at all. Instead, many players would choose the portions of Mastery that they want the most for that particular power (most likely the Scope, Effect, or Cost portions) for relatively little XP and then never bother purchasing the rest of the Extra (which they probably will feel they can live happily without).

I have no sympathy for players who power at a premium. Fat crackling cosmic power of the Gods is expensive. The 'players' mentioned in the above quote need should learn coping skills. Players should be deterred from wanting Mastery. Being able to destroy or control entire continents with a whim removes most challenges from games.

That's why don't allow it, or any of the other Level 4-6 powers.

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: Dave, ST

It's not a new mechanic. It's an old mechanic broken down into its base parts that the players are 'charged' for. Whether yo use dots or an extra, the mechanic hasn't changed at all.

Instead of getting them all at once, you're 'charged' for each individual aspect. Mechanically, it all functions the same.

A power that does nothing except amplify and alter the way another power works is a new mechanic. For instance, since Mastery would now be a power in and of itself, can other Extras be applied to it? Granted, most of them wouldn't be useful, but Reduced Cost would. How about Merged? Can that Extra be applied and, if so, how does it work?

Normally Merged requires both novas to have, say, Quantum Bolt for this to be useful and it is the Quantum Bolts that are merged. But in this case, both novas would only need to have the Mastery "power", which would themselves be linked to other powers. Now, obviously, we could say 'no, you can't apply Extras to this new Mastery power', or we could disallow only certain Extras, but either way the point is that these are things that need to be considered.

Originally Posted By: Dave, ST

This is a valid debate, but mastery as a whole pretty cheap compared to what it grants you so really, it's not too far fetched.

Sure, I'm just saying, is all. Breaking it out this way makes it significantly cheaper to Master certain powers now. If that's not a problem for people, then it's not a problem for people.

Originally Posted By: Dave, ST

I have no sympathy for players who power at a premium. Fat crackling cosmic power of the Gods is expensive. The 'players' mentioned in the above quote need should learn coping skills. Players should be deterred from wanting Mastery. Being able to destroy or control entire continents with a whim removes most challenges from games.

That's why don't allow it, or any of the other Level 4-6 powers

"Powering at a premium" just means you're smarter than the guys who don't, Dave. That's like saying you have no respect for people who save up coupons from the morning paper and save dollars every time they go shopping because of it, or that you have no respect for people who choose to drive gas-efficient vehicles, even though they could afford a flashy sports car, because they know it will save them money over the long run and they know they don't really need the flashy sports car.

I've never understood why so many gamers have a problem with people who run the numbers. In real life, that's a sign of intelligence, folks. But then again, maybe this is another of those aspects of "real life" that many gamers are hoping to escape from...

Regardless, whether you're one of those who sees this sort of behavior as "munchkin-ism" or "powermaxing", or whether you're (like myself) someone who sees this as "investing wisely", the fact remains that simply choosing to ignore such considerations will not make them go away.

If a player knows that he/she only really needs/wants the Reduced Cost portion of Mastery, then why in the world whould he/she purchase the rest of it? As it stands, they would need to purchase Mastery as an Extra, which costs rather a lot in most cases (even if they're only adding it to a power with 2 or 3 dots, the power still raises a level, so raising that power to 4 or 5 dots becomes more expensive as well resulting in the same overall cost), but this new system would allow players to "power at a premium". If that is, as you seem to imply, a problem, then doesn't that make this modification to the rules a problem as well?

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't; I'm just pointing it out to make people aware of it.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Justin OOC

Mastery requires q6

which almost always requires approval of some kind to get....

All of the Q6+ powers and such are DEEP into "negotiate with the ST" territory. All the powers are not equally broken or equally appropriate for all games.

Master+(Teleport/Warp) allows stellar travel. The ST will either love or hate that.

Further not all players are ready for Mastery and others could handle Mastery III without breaking the game. I've seen the equiv of Plank Scaling successfully meshed into a low powered game thanks to the way it was used.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

1) It is (as Dawn has already pointed out) a new mechanic, and those always have unforeseen consequences.

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

It's not a new mechanic. It's an old mechanic broken down into its base parts that the players are 'charged' for. Whether yo use dots or an extra, the mechanic hasn't changed at all.

Instead of getting them all at once, you're 'charged' for each individual aspect. Mechanically, it all functions the same.

Dave, I think Kazuo means the 'linking without linking'. With the weakness Linking, I don't think you can link to a passive power (which is what the Mastery power would be, as it's not something you activiate) like Armor, since the drawback to them is that the linked powers go active at the same time. That is something new to the game, whereas Fox was just trying to modify the existing power somewhat.

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

2) There are only four aspects of Mastery, not five.

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

Then only four dots. Or as many dots as are required. Some powers that have fewer parameters are easier to master. Mastery also adds parameters that some powers didn't already possess...

My immediate thought to Kazuo's concern was to come up with some other crunchy goody to add to make five aspects of Mastery. While a four-dot power sounds fine, sticking with the 5 by 5 conceit of Abby sounds fine to me.

Also, Kazuo - doesn't Mastery grant a free extra? Or am I thinking of something else. If you had that added into the Mastery power, that's five.

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

3) Many powers wouldn't need all four levels of the Mastery Extra. For instance, the example you used, Dawn, Force Field. It has a Range of "Self" (normally), so there's no point in worrying about purchasing that one. This would also be true of many other powers - for instance Armor - which already has a Duration of "Permanent", a cost of "Free" and a Range of "Self", meaning you'd only really need the Effect portion which could be purchased for all of 12xp. Even in a PbP game, with their egregiously slow rates of XP-awards, that's not very expensive.

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

This is a valid debate, but mastery as a whole pretty cheap compared to what it grants you so really, it's not too far fetched.

I'm with Dave on concerns of xp cost. Mastery of a five-dot level 3 power is 23 xp (if I can do Math right). For 23 xp, you get all the stuff of Mastery; by using Mastery as a power, you have to pay 12xp for the one thing you want. And that's if the aspect you want is covered by the first dot. If its not, then you have to pay more. That said, each dot should grant something to a power since it was purchased. Also noted that if you spend the xp on Mastering Armor, you're paying (assuming that the ST wants you to have five dots before Mastery) 23 xp for the single aspect of Mastery that you want.

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

4) The increasing cost of purchasing each succeeding dot of this new "Power" would deter many gamers from ever maxing the Extra out at all. Instead, many players would choose the portions of Mastery that they want the most for that particular power (most likely the Scope, Effect, or Cost portions) for relatively little XP and then never bother purchasing the rest of the Extra (which they probably will feel they can live happily without).

Originally Posted By: Dave ST

I have no sympathy for players who power at a premium. Fat crackling cosmic power of the Gods is expensive. The 'players' mentioned in the above quote need should learn coping skills. Players should be deterred from wanting Mastery. Being able to destroy or control entire continents with a whim removes most challenges from games.

That's why don't allow it, or any of the other Level 4-6 powers.

Honestly, I see it as better to let the PCs get what they want from Mastery piecemeal than throw it all at them. As Kaz said, they can buy one aspect of it for 12 xp, or the whole boat for 23 xp - less than double the costs we're talking for all of the benefits. To me, that's very low. I remember scrambling and tainting my PC so that he could get a level 3 power with a Q-min of 4 that I hadn't planned for him to get at character creation (it was a low-powered game to start, I think I had Q1 to start). But the end result was that I paid a lot of xp for something because the PC wanted it, and I wanted it. If players want it, they'll get it. But the fact that damned near everyone I know puts Mastery on several powers as soon as they can tells me that it's just too damned cheap. It's like the Jack of all Trades feat in M&M - if just about everyone (and all the players of a certain type of character) want it, then it's just too damned powerful for the cost. That's how I feel about Mastery.

Just a personal note on why I dislike Mastery: I let Mastery into a game once. The player who put it on his QB made a lake in Canada with a single shot. Turns out, he later found out he'd killed a tribe of Innuit because his area of effect on the bolt was so large that he couldn't see the entirity of the area he affected (the player/character wanted to "see what I can do"). So yeah, challenges beyond "guy picks a fight with you in a city, do you really feel like destroying several city blocks to kill him?" are gone. And lets not talk about the Temporal Manipulator with Mastery. *shudder*

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

"Powering at a premium" just means you're smarter than the guys who don't, Dave.

So you're right, and anyone who doesn't agree is stupid. Low blow Kaz, and I thought we were keeping it civil.

Quote:

I've never understood why so many gamers have a problem with people who run the numbers. In real life, that's a sign of intelligence, folks.

You're right, it is a sign of intelligence. But sometimes people hide behind those large equations because they can not think on the fly or make a decision on the spot (or anytime soon).

Sometimes people just want something simple and try something new without someone throwing in their face a ton of math followed by a speech of how they're right and the simple gamer is stupid.

I don't see it as a 'new mechanic'. Everything that Dawn suggests is already part of the game and, with some tweaking, I could make it work. I wouldn't need equations, or to clip coupons. If you look at something in its simplest form you can see ways to improve it. If you run the numbers looking for a problem and why it won't work, you'll always find it.

I'm going to accept my cue to duck out of this one before it envelops into a flame war. Fox, your idea has merit, Dawn, so does yours. Good luck coming up with something.

[Dawn OOC]

Having gotten totally ninjaed by Kaz's post and not realizing this until Dave's post, I'm going to try to bridge the two posts. Again. But fuck all that quoting.

Guys, what you're seeing is a difference in play-style. That's all. Both are valid styles of play. To Cent, it makes sense to maximize use of your points, but just because someone doesn't do that doesn't make them dumb. It just means that they don't know the system, or they didn't want to maximize.

I know I've seen a lot of anti-'powergamer' remarks and posts over the years. I know that I appreciate a well-made character. I'm know that these kind of posts tend to aggrivate people who strive to build numerically maxed characters. Cent isn't Sky, who had to have perfect characters who never fail, and I'm sure listening to us gripe about min-maxing gets old.

Dave's point of people who don't min-maxing are not stupid is good. I like to make my characters in a manner that they're effective, but I usually throw at least some points at something that's fun or even contradictory because it amuses me. In that way, my characters are rarely 'powered at a premium'.

I really don't think that we need to have people withdraw from the conversation. It's going pretty well, generating ideas and getting feedback to both myself and Fox. We just need to take a step back, not assume that what we're reading into something is what was meant, and try to remain civil.

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: Dawn

My immediate thought to Kazuo's concern was to come up with some other crunchy goody to add to make five aspects of Mastery. While a four-dot power sounds fine, sticking with the 5 by 5 conceit of Abby sounds fine to me.

Also, Kazuo - doesn't Mastery grant a free extra? Or am I thinking of something else. If you had that added into the Mastery power, that's five.

Four dots maximum isn't necessarily bad, it's just another 'new' thing added to the game. I was only pointing out that there were four, not five, not that there was something wrong with that, necessarily. My apologies if I made it sound like a bigger deal than it was.

RE: Free Extras: That comes at Quantum of 6+ by default. Having any degree of Mastery is not a prerequisite. And it isn't really a 'free' extra, but rather a certain number of extras (dependent on the nova's actual Quantum score) that you can purchase for the cost of one dot of the power without it increasing the power's Level.

One thing to consider, concerning the issue of "# of dots" in this new "Power", would be to simply combine Mastery 1, 2 and 3 into a single "suite" power, which would have a total of 12 "techniques". Just like certain of the techniques presented for powers like Entropy Control and Elemental Mastery, these "techniques" could each have a prerequisite level of Quantum required in order to purchase them.

So the first level of the Scope aspect of Mastery would require Quantum 6, while the 2nd level would require Quantum 8 and so on. An interesting wrinkle of this method would be that, with 10 dots being the maximum any nova could have in this power, no nova would ever have a single power fully maxed all the up to the level of Mastery 3. So they might have the Scope and Duration aspect pumped up to the the 3rd level, while the Cost and Effect aspects were pumped up to Lvl 2, but having all 4 aspects pumped to the 3rd level wouldn't be possible. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing in people's opinions, but it's something to consider.

Originally Posted By: Dave, ST

So you're right, and anyone who doesn't agree is stupid. Low blow Kaz, and I thought we were keeping it civil.

I'm not really sure how that chain of logic you've got going there works, Dave.

To rephrase what I said in my last post: Paying attention to your character's personality and background and really fleshing that out - both during character creation and during gameplay - is one aspect of running a character. Paying attention to how you spend your points on your character - both during character creation and during gameplay - is another. People who do well in the first but not the second usually receive no flack for it from other players, while those who do better at the second than they do at the first usually do receive flack from other players.

Unfortunately, people who do well in both categories also tend to receive flack from other players, as evidenced by your own remarks regarding your lack of sympathy for players who "power at a premium", which (at least it seemed by all appearances) was being applied to all such individuals, regardless of how much or little work or effort they're putting into their character's background and personality. Your opinion in this regard seems to be a common one, and that is something I do not understand.

People who do well at the "roleplay" side of gaming, but do terribly at the numbers side are still hurting their characters' overall potential. People who do well with numbers but not with the "roleplay" are probably damaging there characters' potential more, but not to the degree that the former group should receive no flack while the latter group receives lots of flack.

And as for those individuals who pay attention not only to the "roleplaying" aspect of their characters' potential, but also to the numbers side as well? These individuals are paying attention (or trying to pay attention) to all aspects of their characters, and yet they still receive some degree of scorn for it. I was trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to point this out, and that this was something I find strange and unfortunate.

You're right, people should be able to game however they want, so why is that the folks who want to game "smart" are treated as spoilsports by the folks who don't want to be bothered by details and would prefer to keep things "simple"? That's fine they want things simple - why is it not fine that there are others who like to try and do things "smart" (or complicated, as the case may be)?

RE: Dawn's last post: Well said.