Jump to content

EarthDawn: A Brave New World - The Tavern Table: OOC Talk

Stargaizer

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 269
  • Created
  • Last Reply
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Click to reveal.. (OOC, behind the scenes info)
Just so you know, Cob's ok, just really low on hit points and he's got a couple of wounds. He's unconscious, which is a good thing after having fallen the equivalent of 24ft for a 6ft person.


Oh, SM, you're just saying that because the first casualty of the game was a windling NPC.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
SalmonMax Boss

SalmonMax

Posted
Posted

I'm just giving you a hard time. smile

Click to reveal..
Ah, but falling distances don't scale like that. Gravity's acceleration is constant, regardlss of the falling mass. So a 6 foot man falling 10 feet will fall harder than a 6 inch man falling 10 inches, even though the distances are the same, by scale. He has more time to accelerate.

Plus, an 18 inch high person has a lot less mass, and thus a lot less kinetic energy, than a full size person, even falling the same distance. It's one reason a squirrel can fall off the top of a tree and be perfectly fine, when something larger would die of its injuries falling that far.

That said, I've no objections to Cob's condition. I'm just being pedantic. smile

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Click to reveal..
Just to be counter-pedantic, or possibly double(ly)-pedantic (I'm a physics, not an english major)...

To quote something very true, "It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end". Basically, there are two factors that cause injury during a fall. There's the brute force of how hard you fall, the force, which is dependent on mass, velocity, and the time it takes to completely decelerate. There is also 'how' you land (think tumbling vs. landing straight on your feet, knees locked). 'How' you land decreases injury by not only by increasing the time it takes to decelerate, but also by spreading out the force of impact to different parts of your body. That is increasing both time (thus lessening force) and increasing area (decreasing pressure).

That said to say this, using the standard height and weight of a human (6', 150lbs) and a windling (1.5', 13lbs), and assuming that they are both a rectangle of the same proportions (6'x2' & 1.5'x0.75') since they're falling limply (i.e. unconscious), a windling falling from 6' is equivalent in pressure (or force per unit area) to a human falling from 11.5', almost double. (std human falling from 24' is only 1.5x the force per unit area of a std windling falling from 6')

To make my original statement true, of being equivalent to a human falling from 24', it would just take a slightly smaller windling (1.25'x0.41') at std. weight falling from the same 6' height.

So, in reference to just force, you're correct. But in reference to force per unit area, I'm correct.

(yes, I am neglecting the time of the impact... I'm assuming that they are falling the same way, and thus they hit the same way, therefore in the comparison, the delta-t is irrelevant.)

/rant
Link to comment
Share on other sites
SalmonMax Boss

SalmonMax

Posted
Posted
Click to reveal..
But! Square-cube law! The proportional air resistance to a windling is greater than it is to a full scale human! The windling will not fall at the same velocity (which does mean my first post is in error, as I was only taking gravity into account there) as the human. It will fall more slowly, and accelerate due to gravity more slowly.

Parry! Riposte! Have at you!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Click to reveal..
True, the smaller you are, the denser the fluid effectively is to you.

However...

The air resistance of an airplane or a car isn't significantly higher than it is for us humans. Thus is should be a negligible difference between a human and a windling.

Also...

The total flight (fall) time is less than a second, so air resistance (unless radically different between the two) is completely negligible anyways.

Block. Counter-attack.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Ok. Make sure to add these to your character sheets (SM, please post up a sheet for Arcata).

Catslayer - 50LP's for great RP

Arcata - 50LP's for humorous RP and a rousing physics debate

Gamrin & Misthal - 30LP's for doing such a great job.

All 4 - 100LP for completing the 'session'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I'm heading out of town, so I won't have any books or notes over the weekend. I'm waiting on Gamrin and Misthal to post anyway before I have the Magistrate respond. Nayobee, I'll do my best to get something written down so that when I get to an internet connection I'll be able to type and post.

So, while things are relatively slow during the holidays, let me post the question: How is everyone liking the game so far? Anything anybody would change or would definitely like to keep the same?

And of course, what would your character like for Christmas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Ok, let me mention one thing in case I forgot to earlier. This kaer was founded by Theran sympathizers; the Book of Tomorrow is buried deep inside the library. In the schools growing up in the kaer you're taught Theran history, not Throlliac.

That's where the strata/class like system in the kaer came from; it evolved from Theran thoughts/practices over the generations.

That said, feel free to think what you want about Thera, just know that most of the kaer (especially the older humans) think that 'Great Thera' is the passions gift to the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Also, as the kaer has had no outside contact since the Scourge started, the PC's knowledge of the passions is somewhat different. The PC's (save Nayobee) don't know that 3 of the passions have gone mad. So, for your characters knowledge please replace:

-Dis (Confusion, Unnecessary Work, Bureaucracy & Slavery)

-Raggok (Vengeance, Bitterness & Jealousy)

-Vestrial (Manipulation, Deceit, Treason & Trickery)

with:

-Erendis (Order, Bureaucracy & Work)

-Rashomon (Endurance, Tolerance, Leadership, Diplomacy & Perseverance)

-Vestrial (Humor and Cunning)

Just an FYI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Ok, after having read this (please read link) I would like to discuss this rule:

3)Players may, after having successfully completing a karma ritual, purchase at the lp cost listed in the book a number of karma points not to exceed their rank in karma ritual.

Specifically, I plan on the PC's becoming legends fairly quickly, so I'll be giving you plenty of both LP's and opportunities for LP's. That being said, I don't think that having to spend LP's for karma would make much of a difference except when it comes to bookkeeping.

In an effort to make the number-crunching on the sheets easier and more streamlined, I would like to propose that PC's get (up to) rank karma points back each time they do their karma ritual. All other points as posted would stay the same.

I would like everybody to post a yay or nay vote and a small explanation if you feel inclined. Any 'either way is fine with me' vote will be counted as a yay, just so you know.

Click to reveal..
From the last page, basically summing up the argument. I agree more with the second poster.
Originally Posted By: Drucifer
The player that uses all their Karma in one fight should face the consequences of that action.

Legend Point Free Karma takes away the understanding that the Adept is a legendary entity and has to work to maintain that legend through deeds. The Karma is the result of deeds it’s not just a game mechanic but an integral part of the flavor of the game world.

Thanks

Dru

Originally Posted By: Quorlox
If an Adept isn't doing legendary things, they have no use for Karma. They don't spend karma to tie their shoes or draw water from a well, but to destroy Horrors, slay dragons, etc.

LP-free karma puts PCs on the same footing as every other being in the game (while reducing an annoying bookkeeping exercise). Dragons, horrors, and spirits don't spend anything for karma, and every honest GM will tell you that we don't worry about how much it costs NPC Adepts either. The only people who pay LP for karma are PCs. IMO, it's a cumbersome mechanic that doesn't contribute to the thematic feel of Earthdawn.

I encourage everyone to try it. I was worried just like you were, and none of my worries came to pass. It makes for a more enjoyable game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nayobee Enthusiast

Nayobee

Posted
Posted

My vote is Nay for the same reasons I objected to this the first time. I never ran into any of the aforementioned problems and it was always an interesting aspect of the game to use Karma when it meant to make a difference.

The bookkeeping part was also important but got never cumbersome (at least for me, both as Player and GM).

To make a long story short - "Nay" "Nay" "Nay"

:P

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

The discussion before was over several different issues, such as raising the cap on the amount of karma that you could spend on a single, eligible roll, when you had to declare that you were going to spend that karma, as well as the cost and mechanism of regaining karma.

In my searches across the interwebs, I came across the forum of the current publisher of ED, and in those forums I found a well discussed thread on LP-less karma. Most of the GM's in that thread (it's in the GM part of the forum) said that they have already done away with LP for karma and that they've never looked back. After having read the pros and cons discussed in that thread I thought that I would share that with you all here, and ask for a definitive vote on this one particular issue.

So RM is an 'IDC' yay, AW and Nayobee are nay's and SM hasn't said one way or the other. To AW, I see it as more of a short term issue. Once you get to 4th and 5th circles you should be gaining enough LP's that the cost to refill karma should be small by comparison. To Nayobee, I'm not suggesting a change in the use in any way, just the way and cost to refill/purchase. I foresee paying LP's to be a hassle when it comes to recounting/auditing sheets later on. Plus, as mentioned in the linked thread, it puts the PC's at a disadvantage relative to the creatures, horrors, and NPC adepts that they will meet in the world (none of them pay LP's to refill).

All that said, I will abide by the wishes of my players on this issue. The deciding vote goes to either SM or Krul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nayobee Enthusiast

Nayobee

Posted
Posted

Alright, I read through the link and very much agree with Dru.

Let me elaborate - It is quoted that once you reach 5th+ Circle the cost won't hurt you as much as a starting PC which is true. I also think it is meant to be like that.

Legend Points aren't just Experience Points - they represent far more than that (and that's why so many things are measured in Legends Points). Keeping track of how much LP your Karma costs plays an integral part of what the game is about. It may be a cumbersome mechanic but I strongly believe it is needed out of several reasons.

There's no fixed LPs value that states a PC with X LPs is Circle Y. Two PCs with the same Total LP can be of different Circles. There are many reasons for that - one PC can have several Thread Items which he invested LPs into, the other probably has focused on raising his Talents and the last maybe went into Dual Classing (which is also something I'd like to elaborate on, but more later).

Normally a GM should reward LPs after every session, some for good RPing, and of course all LPs rewarded from combat situations. The PCs should always keep a small "pool" of LP to allocate for Karma if they want to make sure to not run out of Karma. Taking that away would affect not only a statistical value but also a RPing part of the game.

It's of course difficult to measure what one "session" is in a forum game so I would suggest rewarding LPs for good RPing adhoc (like in M&M with Heropoints for example) and after every combat immediately as reward. That should make sure that there's a constant supply of LPs. Deeds are also a way of getting LPs during a session. I guess you'll come up with enough ideas yourself to give us opportunities to gain LPs during a session.

The other part which factors in when you multi class is another mechanical aspect of the game. At least as far as I remember the sourcebooks (Adept's Way) you have to buy for both classes your Karmaritual Talent because you can't only rely on gaining Karma from one source only (you still can only make 1 Karma Ritual per day) because if you did so you'd risk a talentcrisis. If you emphasis one aspect too much you'll lose access to the other Discipline. This mechanic "forces" you to buy talents twice and decide depending on the situation which aspect you make use of (Do I attack bluntly but effectively like a Warrior with my Melee Weapons Talent or do I choose to make a filigran series of thrusts and feints like a Swordmaster would, yet using the same Talent but from different aspects, thus from different Disciplines). If you don't keep balance you'll risk losing access to the talents you've been neglecting.

I'm sorry for this wall of text but I felt it was necessary to point out a few aspects of the game which I believe all factor in to decide if Karma should cost LPs or not. I believe it should cost LPs (not a reduced factor, but just by the book). It is working as intended and to give a different oppinion/feedback, in 15 years of playing and GMing ED I never had the feeling it was a cumbersome mechanic that only required book keeping. Sometimes it was an integral part of a story for example when you get caught by slavers and can't do Karma rituals for a while or can't gain LPs and actually run out of your "pool" or if you run into a similar complication like being imprisoned by Theran forces. We went through all different kind of stories involving such situations and housekeeping your Karma decided over success and failure.

I apologize for this elaborate "rant" but this a more appropriate answer than just saying "nay".

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stargaizer Veteran

Stargaizer

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Quote:
Let me elaborate - It is quoted that once you reach 5th+ Circle the cost won't hurt you as much as a starting PC which is true. I also think it is meant to be like that.

Legend Points aren't just Experience Points - they represent far more than that...

There's no fixed LPs value that states a PC with X LPs is Circle Y...

I agree with everything in these paragraphs except "Keeping track of how much LP your Karma costs plays an integral part of what the game is about. It may be a cumbersome mechanic but I strongly believe it is needed out of several reasons."

Quote:
Normally a GM should reward LPs after every session... I guess you'll come up with enough ideas yourself to give us opportunities to gain LPs during a session.

I'll give out LPs at the end of threads or when the characters do something to spread their legend (Arcata spins their tale at a tavern, they turn in a copy of their adventures to the Library of Throl, etc.)

Quote:
The other part which factors in when you multi class is another mechanical aspect of the game... If you don't keep balance you'll risk losing access to the talents you've been neglecting.

The Adept's Way states that the GM may require the purchase of separate karma rituals and may require the keeping of separate karma pools. I don't. Any talent that has the same name as a talent that you already possess (except via Versatility) can be counted towards a second (or third, etc.) discipline. If you think that your character concept, their view of the world, or your view of the world requires you to duplicate talents, I'll allow it, but I'll strictly enforce it (you duplicate one talent, you have to duplicate all the talents).

As far as talent crisis, I don't foresee this being a problem with this group, but if someone starts abusing that, I'll take care of it then.

Quote:
I'm sorry for this wall of text but I felt it was necessary... I apologize for this elaborate "rant" but this a more appropriate answer than just saying "nay".

I see where you are coming from, I really do, I just personally don't agree with it. This might be a place where we have to agree to disagree... it's just awkward to do that because I control the world but you play in it. But, as I said before, I'll go with the majority. If you all want to go for it, then we'll go for it. I just wanted to express this particular option more completely and fully for discussion and decision.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...