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Dr cornelius

Aberrant RPG - z-waves/quantum/sub-quantum(psi)/Mal

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Basics:

-Psiads natural sub-quantum users/ /manipulators (psion artificially created psi users).

-Nova?s natural quantum users/users.

-Inspired natural z-wave users manipulators.

-Paramorph "changed in temporal stability" ability alone? energy source ?

People become what they are due to certain active genetic sequences, and a key

Experiences that awakens their abilities/powers, I think another factor is soul/spirit, Taking from the Indian eastern point of view, souls evolve, become enlightened move Up levels. So with this in mind the souls inhabit ting bodies around the world are At different points in evolution/enlightenment,

So say baselines have a soul rank 1,inspired would be 3, and psiads and nova's 4-5, paramorphs no idea? Also there may be positive and negative facets to them. So if your a soul 3, and have the genetic sequence needed to become inspired and undergo a particular experience needed, you awaken, same applies for the nova and psiad. But if you have the soul rank but not the genetic sequences need your latent, unless your gene code changes, same applies if you have the gene sequences necessary but don?t

Have the soul rank, latent, unless you undergo something that enlightens your soul to next level.

You have Mal, he becomes an inspired in adventure due to having gene sequence and soul ranking, and having the experience of hammersmiths accident exposure to z-waves. Result he becomes a z-wave user part stalwart part psychic. Now they suggest that he was a natural nova, so that means that his soul level was high enough to become a nova, but his genes didn?t have the right sequence keys. But he becomes a nova why?

Possibly due to constant exposure to z-waves over time modify the genome, or he learns to use chrysalis in z-wave form, thus modify his genome to allow him to move up the next level physically inspired - nova. Or it?s due to the experiment that he undertakes in the future which causes the mass eruption of novas around the world; this could be what modifies his genome to allow him to physically evolve. Or he could have simply done what I decided to do as seen in the adventure thread z-waves:

http://www.nprime.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000020.html

He creates a tank bombards himself with z-wave particles equal to what caused him to erupt in the first place, thus modify himself, seeing that it works he creates a device or devices to cause the mass eruption of novas in the future.

Well that?s one idea I suppose, next questions:

Since mal went from inspired to nova, and is now a quantum user does that mean he has lost the ability to channel and control z-waves. Can other novas channel z-waves or just quantum??

Is it possible for a psiad to be able to channel control sub-quantum energy as well as z-wave energy, or is it a one or the other??

My answer is if they have the active genetic sequences and have the soul level or higher they are capable of doing both z-wave and sub-quantum for psiads, same for quantum and z-waves for novas. Maybe it?s this innate ability they don?t know they have which effects if they have taint, and how it manifest itself.

------------------

call me a kitty cat will you, grrrrrrrrr see my claws, and watch them rip your heart out human.

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almost forgot to add, I think if their are possitive and negative attributes to the soul, then that might be the unknown factor that decide's what the being becomes, either nova or psiad if you go by the books saying that both have the gene sequences for a node. Since both do erupt in the adventure timeline, even tho the psiad is surrounded by nova and quantum energy.

------------------

call me a kitty cat will you, grrrrrrrrr see my claws, and watch them rip your heart out human.

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I believe the working theory is that Z-rays are unified Quantum and Sub-quantum energy. The Hammersmith Experiment caused a rift, making it so that Inspired could only manipulate one-half of the energy. The energy becomes re-unified in 2160. Thus, the precognative window that psions and novas can't see past.

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Your right, Ranger. I have been staying up too late.

Coriolis, I am not sure I understand who you mean by the failsafe guy. If you mean the poet, I think that is something else entirely. I feel that Mercer is someone who gets to witness key events and has tried to shape the world's future using what he has 'seen'.

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ok back to the point, so you have mal, did he evolve or de-evolve then, considering he went from z-waves to quantum. or did he go and still keep the other abilities from before.??

also can a psiad manipulate z-waves as well as sub-quantum??

------------------

call me a kitty cat will you, grrrrrrrrr see my claws, and watch them rip your heart out human.

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I think it may be a mistake to consider 'telluric energy' or 'Z-waves' an energy source as if it were just another form of energy. If we're to trust canon on this point then the four types of wave/particles comprising the quantum group and the single group wave particle comprising the sub-quantum group form the unified field theory of the Aeon-verse reality. The aggregate forms the totality of the universe and accounts for all mass/energy. The technology of the 1920's was completely unable to seperately identify the two groups and the individual workings therefore therefore failed to differentiate between the two. No, this doesn't answer the question of what telluric energy is but neither does labeling it as another energy as though it were a new wave/particle.

To answer your question, though; Mal neither evolved or de-evolved. The purpose of evolution in the biological sense is propagate a species and is judged successful if the species continues to exist and breed and expand to the limits of the ecological niche available. Mal is one man. A man that had a profound affect on society and the species, but only a single organism in the end.

My personal opinion, and it's only my opinion, is that quantum manipulation taken to the degree conjectured at the late stages of the aberrant war is an evolutionary deadend. In part this is because I believe that in the Aeon-verse, those that seperate themselves from the species as a whole whither and fade.

Therein lies part of the reason I find Teras so abhorrant. As a philosophy it ranks right up there with Plato's (?) stoicism and Crowley's "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". A useful tool in a very narrow field. It's a confidence game, a hustle, designed to trick the mind into developing along specific lines of probability culminating in the event of chrysalis. And all for the sole purpose of keeping taint from eating you alive as you push the envelope just a little further and accrue greater levels of taint as the price tag for all the power. Furhtering the individual with no proof that you can continue as a species, quite a lot of tentative proof for the opposite actually.

Exteme quantum manipulation would appear to be an evolutionary deadend for the species. I tend to believe psi taken to the same extreme degree is a similiar deadend in a completely different way, perhaps as the psiad/psion subsumes completely into the subnoetic. That would be the ultimate expression of noetic awareness would it not?

[This message has been edited by Tuesday Childe (edited 09-25-2001).]

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Just a quick addendum to my previous post to clarify my position on the inspired and telluric energy. The telluric energy didn't do anything to the inspired that that they couldn't have done on their own with time, patience and a little luck. Now the lost worlds are a different story but that theory rambles on a for a few thousand words as Mr. Meehan and a few others can attest.

------------------

Tuesday Childe

having far to go...

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My take on all this is probably total

nonsense, physics is not my strongest

science but it goes something like this.

(Warning this does cover stuff from all three games)

1. Since it's harder to make a device usable by all inspired as opposed to just your own kind of inspired there is obviously some difference between Mesmerists and Stalwarts beyond the types of powers. This is backed up by the fact that when they do apparently have another type of inspired knack it is a special their type version so to speak.

2. The ooc section of the book states quite clearly that mesmerists are the genetic ancestors of the psions and novas are exceptiononally powerful stalwarts. However according to Adventure they both use Z-waves but Trinity states Taint (Quantum) and Psi interfere with each other and compares it to non-explosive anti-matter. However if psi and quantum mutually anhilated they would never have been a quantakinetic mode (think about it) so it's something else.

3. Then I thought maybe it's thinking about them as particles that is the problem maybe I need to think about them as waves. Maybe Z rays are like white light and psi and quantum like red and blue light. Maybe it's a wavelength thing. Maybe they just filter the appropriate wavelegth out of the mishmash of background radiation. But this led me to another question...

4. If all this is true then why do Trinity's psions detect novas as absent where Mesmerists from Adventure with an appropriate knack detect Stalwarts as etherically active? Well the psions are artificial maybe the Doyen built it in, maybe not even deliberately. It's not uncommon for creatures to have vision at one end of the spectrum and not see the other. If such a creature saw something of the wrong colour it would look black. Maybe it's a similar thing. The mesmerists/ psychomorphs/ psiads or whatever however can detect it. They just can't use it.

5. Is there anything in canon to back this up... well one thing. Gravity is a Quantum Force manipulated by Novas but according to Stellar Frontiers the graviton is a sub-quantum particle. The first time I read that I went huh?

6. I could explain my take on how QK would have had to work (that involves going back to behaving as particles and involves waterjets and basket balls) but I won't since it's not involved.

If any of the above didn't make any sense just tell me. I wouldn't be surprised.

,,

Becka

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Let me try out this analogy:

Sub-quantum is a fine-mesh net and quantum energy is the ocean contained by the net. What Hammersmith did was take a shotgun to the net causing it to rip open in some places (the Lost Worlds) and distend it in others (allowing large amounts of quantum to seap past through).

Mesmerist/Psions manipulate the net and are thus limited to what they can do by the integrity of the net. Likewise, if all they do is concentrate on maintaining the nets integrity, the can "cancel out" Quantum use.

Stalwarts/Novas pull the quantum through the net. As the net repairs itself after Hammersmith, fewer and fewer Stalwarts would emerge, because there are fewer incidents of free-flowing Q. The existing ones would already know how to pull the Q through and would continue, but find it very difficult to 'grow' in strength. Later, when novas come into being, the stress they place on the net causes taint to manifest within themselves (they are basically warping their personal sub-quantum field, after all). Supporting this is the fact that taint manifest when they nova uses excessive amounts of Q.

If a nova wanted to stop a psion, they could simple disrupt the net to such a degree by pulling Q through that the psion couldn't manipulate the net.

Theoretically, a whole bunch of novas running around could so warp the sub-quantum net that no psion could effectively use their power.

Back in the 1920's, they could only guess at what they were doing. Correctly, they could realize that they were messing with the fabric of reality. The mesmerists were utilizing the fabric, itself (thus they have externalized powers), while the novas were manipulating the stuff that was passing through the ruptured fabric and channeling it through their personal sub-quantum field.

That might justify the strain it placed on MD and explain why he became more alienated as he kept pushing more power through himself. As his personal field became more warped, others had a hard time dealing with his 'otherness'.

Just a theory I have.

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Jager, may I say that that theory is the most coherant explanation for Aeonverse Metaphysics I have ever seen. Until someone comes up with anything better, I'm sticking with that one!

------------------

Lee Davis-Thalbourne/Kirby1024 - kirby1024@hotmail.com

Creator of the XA-1037. Ask me about my special rates for special customers!

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Quote:
4. If all this is true then why do Trinity's psions detect novas as absent where...


Me, sitting up startled. "What!"

Where is this stated? Jeez, how did I miss this? Why didn't anyone send me the memo?

I have the answer to the mesmerist/stalwart end of the problem but I've never heard anything like what was quoted above. Where is this stated and does it mean that aberrants are not part of the sub-quantum? If that's true then it changes everything. That would mean that the aberrants are essentially their own self-contained sub-quantum field and taint would be the least of their worries and the most understandable of problems.

As far as the mesmers vs. stalwarts; one of the two developers has said that the level 1-3 knacks were deliberately chosen because the power available from these knacks represented nothing higher than was possible by the first 1.5 dots of a nova power. He's asserted that below the 1.5 dot level the quantum and sub-quantum membrane is permeable. I take that to mean that quantum flow at this level is not excessively low probability therefore does not distort the sub-quantum (i.e. taint). By the same token, one would assume that stalwart's knacks could not be 'disrupted' by full blown psis the way a nova's quantum powers could be because his powers aren't purely quantum in nature.

An interesting observation; all nova powers (minus mega-attribute enhancements driven by a single dot mega-attribute) are inherently 2 dot powers. Why? One for a controlling attribute and one for the power itself, thus putting them over the 1.5 dot limit. It's arguable that an enhancement represents another 'dot' increase in and of itself but I'm not certain the developers had that in mind.

Another possibility is that, since the membrane is permeable below the 1.5 dot limits, mesmerists are capable of manipulating quantum energy and stalwarts are capable of manipulating sub-quantum. That would certainly explain the 'psychic lightning' reference in one of Dr Primoris' reports.

Quote:
Let me try out this analogy:
Sub-quantum is a fine-mesh net and quantum energy is the ocean contained by the net. What Hammersmith did was take a shotgun to the net causing it to rip open in some places (the Lost Worlds) and distend it in others (allowing large amounts of quantum to seap past through).


I like this explanation, it's very insightful. I do have one problem though. It seems to overlook the same thing as every other explanation I've heard; psis and aberrants (nova) are not seperate from the quantum and sub-quantum. Were not talking just about energy and probability, we're talking about the totality of reality.

Having said that; it's still a far better analogy than the one I foisted off on you a couple of weeks ago.

------------------
Tuesday Childe
having far to go...

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Tuesday, you were the originator of that analogy. I just mulled over what the group of us talked about for a few weeks.

Psis and Novas are still part of the universe, and thus still effected by its laws. Thus, while a psion manipulates the sub-quantum, he/she is still part of the quantum universe as well. We (humanity) haven't split, just our "perception" of how the quantum and sub-quantum universe works has changed. The existance of Mercer implies the greater potential that is possible for all of us.

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>Me, sitting up startled. "What!"

>Where is this stated? Jeez, how did I miss >this? Why didn't anyone send me the memo?

Where is stated that psionic attunement reads novas/aberrants as a blank? Well I sort of took it has a given. I'm sure it says it somewhere. It certainly says they have psi 0 whereas neutrals (except for psi sinks) have psi 1. I'll try and give you a ref tomorrow or Wednesday.

>I have the answer to the mesmerist/stalwart >end of the problem but I've never heard >anything like what was quoted above. Where >is this stated and does it mean that >aberrants are not part of the sub-quantum?

>If that's true then it changes everything. >That would mean that the aberrants are >essentially their own self-contained sub-?>quantum field and taint would be the least >of their worries and the most >understandable of problems.

I still say we are assuming something that can't be assumed. Though you aren't the first person to say that.

>As far as the mesmers vs. stalwarts; one of

>the two developers has said that the level

>1-3 knacks were deliberately chosen because

>the power available from these knacks

>represented nothing higher than was

>possible by the first 1.5 dots of a nova

>power. He's asserted that below the 1.5 dot

>level the quantum and sub-quantum membrane

>is permeable. I take that to mean that

Oh fine, there's a semi-permable membrane between Quantum and Sub-quantum? Why do I get the feeling I really don't like the aeon continuums meta-physics. Quantum Physics and trying to think in terms of waves and particles simultaneously is bad enough but why id sub-quantum begining to sound like morphic resonance?

,,

>quantum flow at this level is not

>excessively low probability therefore does

>not distort the sub-quantum (i.e. taint). >By the same token, one would assume that >stalwart's knacks could not be 'disrupted' >by full blown psis the way a nova's quantum >powers could be because his powers aren't >purely quantum in nature.

>An interesting observation; all nova powers >(minus mega-attribute enhancements driven >by a single dot mega-attribute) are >inherently 2 dot powers. Why? One for a >controlling attribute and one for the power >itself, thus putting them over the 1.5 dot >limit. It's arguable that an enhancement >represents another 'dot' increase in and of >itself but I'm not certain the developers >had that in mind.

Erm, mostly yes... but then the Ubiquitous Dragon has got a sort of slightly icky version of Clone has he not and that Reptilian Regeneration Knack is way more powerful the regeneration enhancement and even though it's limited to self it's very comparable to healing. In that the reg enhancement takes months to regrow amputations. Healing can do it quick (I think) but requires double points and willpower point. Reptilian Regenration can heal amputations in minutes all being well.

>Another possibility is that, since the >membrane is permeable below the 1.5 dot >limits, mesmerists are capable of >manipulating quantum energy and stalwarts

One word -- quantakinesis... actually a phrase -- not naturally available yet. Without a right change of ideas it's not going to be that.

>are capable of manipulating sub-quantum. >That would certainly explain the 'psychic >lightning' reference in one of Dr Primoris' >reports.

I thought that was just electrokinesis.

Tamazin

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And if you go over to the Trinity forum and read the attunement thread you will see I'm not the only person to read it that way. ie attunement reads novas as gaps.

Tamazin

still wondering about that graviton thing

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I'm a little short on time at the moment but I wanted to toss at least a partial response back your way.

,,
Quote:
Oh fine, there's a semi-permable membrane between Quantum and Sub-quantum? Why do I get the feeling I really don't like the aeon continuums meta-physics. Quantum Physics and trying to think in terms of waves and particles simultaneously is bad enough but why id sub-quantum begining to sound like morphic resonance?

Yeah, it is pretty bad. That's why most of the players and STs exhibit a definite newtonian view of the universe even though they're playing the heroes of the quantum universe. Still (edging away from the morphic resonance term) I tend to think of the Sub-Q as probabilities fields.

(Alright, there isn't that much difference between morphic resonance and probability field but PF is so much more palatable and less mystical.)

Sub-Q is the template which gives shape to the Q energies which in turn are the substance of reality. This doesn't jib with canon completely because I can't account for their antagonistic natures (Q vs. sub-Q) but I question whether that's an actual scientific fact or a social spin put on a scientific fact.

When Bruce B. talked about semi-permeable, I actually took that to mean [in the context of my theory] that there is no conflict at this level of power. While at higher levels, 2.0 vs 1.5, there are distortions introduced as quantum power is caused to flow in ways which are extremely low probability, in violation of the sub-Q influence. Jerk the Q this way and the sub-Q reacts. Jerk it hard enough or often enough and the probability patterns distort or disappear completely. In a word; Taint.

Yes, UD has a power that seems like Clone but that doesn't mean that it is. In fact, a great deal points at it not being Quantum Clone. I would also point out that from an stricly effects view there is no difference between the effects of many psi powers when compared to many quantum powers. Therefore it's not the effect but the process which is important.

Want to stoke the flames higher?

Inspired CANNOT have abilities higher than level 3 knacks. I found that little gem in the SuperScience section last night. What does that mean for Stalwarts being low powered Novas? Does becoming a nova cross some MR tissue density level wherein your powers become theoretically limitless at the cost of sub-Q distortion? Or are novas really aberrations? A distortion caused by Mal attempting to recreate the Hammersmith experiment for the purpose of creating gods not Inspired?

Or even more fun; while Inspired cannot ascend beyond level 3 knacks, Innovations can have powers as high as level 4 or 5. Which, BTW, is how you create some of the really weird stuff. See "Pushing the Envelope" in the SuperScience section if you don't believe me.

I'm not sure which concerns me more... The inherent limitation of never being able to ascend higher power or the idea that a machine can. While this has a direct effect on one of my characters I can live with her never becoming a god again. Especially if it means she can build really cool toys. Sorry, I'm digressing slightly.

------------------

Tuesday Childe

having far to go...

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>Inspired CANNOT have abilities higher than >level 3 knacks. I found that little gem in >the SuperScience section last night. What >does that mean for Stalwarts being low >powered Novas? Does becoming a nova cross

ERm -- novas are to Stalwarts as erm... the so called second generation (node integrated into brain fully) are to novas. I hesitate to use the term more evolved it panders to a misapprehension.

>some MR tissue density level wherein your >powers become theoretically limitless at >the cost of sub-Q distortion? Or are novas >really aberrations? A distortion caused by >Mal attempting to recreate the Hammersmith >experiment for the purpose of creating gods >not Inspired?

Just as a possibility maybe novas are what you get if you expose a stalwart to an extra dose of quantum (or inbreed them for a while). Which leads to the question what happens if a mesmerist gets caught in a similar blast of sub-quantum energy?

>Or even more fun; while Inspired cannot >ascend beyond level 3 knacks, Innovations >can have powers as high as level 4 or 5. >Which, BTW, is how you create some of the >really weird stuff. See "Pushing the >Envelope" in the SuperScience section if >you don't believe me.

Or maybe even Stalwarts change over time. We know that the Aeon Soceity's battle with Primoris/Mal leads to another spike in z-rays. We know of 5 -- the Hammersmith experiment, the Aeon/Mal battle, The Galatea (or whatever), the end of the Aberrant War and whatever it is that happens in 2122.

two of these we know caused people with strange powers to appear. One hasn't happened yet. The other two we don't know about.

>I'm not sure which concerns me more... The >inherent limitation of never being able to >ascend higher power or the idea that a >machine can. While this has a direct effect >on one of my characters I can live with her >never becoming a god again. Especially if >it means she can build really cool toys. >Sorry, I'm digressing slightly.

I'm not sure.

But I was rereading Utopia last night and I remembered something I'd say that that letter in the Proteus section, the one from the CDC bloke suggests Aberration and therefore Taint and therefore novas existed prior to 1998 but not in large numbers. Obviously something changed... and of course we don't know how Chrysalis fits in to all this.

In fact I sometimes wonder how easy it would be to play a game that went through all three time periods without tweaking and i don't think it would be easy.

I now also wonder if their are any plain bog standard Stalwarts out there in the Aberrant period... and if that's what's meant by the fact the Thetis's MR node is fully developed but totally Latent. Maybe she's a Stalwart. That would back up my theory about at least a fair chunk of novas being Stalwarts even before they erupt.

I'm talking nonsense again aren't I?

Tam

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Tam,

A quick caution for you. The "< >" symbols are used to designate an html command within the symbols. When you starting leaving those strewn throughout your quoted text it does funky things to the page. I am not saying that's the reason for the hiccup on the pages from today but it will eventually make a problem if only in your post.

[This message has been edited by Tuesday Childe (edited 10-03-2001).]

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Quote:
Originally posted by Tamazin:
BERm -- novas are to Stalwarts as erm... the so called second generation (node integrated into brain fully) are to novas. I hesitate to use the term more evolved it panders to a misapprehension.


Not completely true. There are only three known novas that were supposed to lack a node, as Avenger once pointed out. Mal (circumstantial evidence), Adam and the deceased Eva. The general assumption is that second generation (SecGen) lack a node but being SecGen really only means that the child is born of eximorph parents with an activated node and does not need to erupt later in life to consciously manipulate quantum. That a pretty big difference though in itself. Imagin being the only sighted child born in a world without sight (Kingdom of the Blind). Your very perceptions of the world are going to be different simply because you sense it in a completely different way. I think Trinity may have gone overboard by making the Edenites novas with Q6+ abilities. Their power could have easily been explained as simply their greater understanding of the Q forces in the universe. That would also explain their minimal levels of taint. Although, it's also believed that SecGen are taint resistant so maybe they are Q6+ and their tolerance for Q manipulations is simply higher.

Quote:
Just as a possibility maybe novas are what you get if you expose a stalwart to an extra dose of quantum (or inbreed them for a while). Which leads to the question what happens if a mesmerist gets caught in a similar blast of sub-quantum energy?


I would think it would have to be somewhat more subtle than that. Electricity is just quantum. As is heat or hard radiation. What were they exposed to besides energy? Telluric seems to be a meeting of Q and sub-Q energies, zero point energy, but what does it really do? It seems to muck with the probabilities of reality directly. Hidden away in the book are references to snakes falling from the sky in one area of the world while frogs rained down in another. What the heck kind of event is it when precipitation takes the form of biological life?

Quote:
Or maybe even Stalwarts change over time. We know that the Aeon Soceity's battle with Primoris/Mal leads to another spike in z-rays. We know of 5 -- the Hammersmith experiment, the Aeon/Mal battle, The Galatea (or whatever), the end of the Aberrant War and whatever it is that happens in 2122.


Yeah, Bruce Baugh mentioned that in the original Trinity Developers guide there was going to be a reference to another mini-boom in the '70s that caused superheroes to appear. That would have been cool.

As for the stalwart connection...

One of the things we're told (by the original AB developer) was that Mal was a SecGen nova born of two latent parents. He would have been destined for great things regardless. If this is true, then the Hammersmith event transformed him into something beyond even that potential. The A! developers state that currently they deal with Primoris as though he were a 15 point nova in the world of the Inspired, but even then they point out that he is not limited to being merely a nova. As the only nova present at the Hammersmith, perhaps the only nova alive at the time, we may never know in what ways Micheal Donighal was changed.


Quote:
I'm not sure.

But I was rereading Utopia last night and I remembered something I'd say that that letter in the Proteus section, the one from the CDC bloke suggests Aberration and therefore Taint and therefore novas existed prior to 1998 but not in large numbers. Obviously something changed... and of course we don't know how Chrysalis fits in to all this.


As far as pre-galatea; we know that novas (perhaps 10 in a century) were born, lived and died. That's referenced in the APG. I tend to think of A! as being additional information rather than a retcon of the ÆON universe.

I think we do know how chrysalis fits into it. Mal (with or without Scripture) develops chrysalis to deal with his problems of taint as he exands his powers. Beyond that we get into a gray area where everyone has an opinion but which there is little factual information.

Quote:
In fact I sometimes wonder how easy it would be to play a game that went through all three time periods without tweaking and i don't think it would be easy.


A couple of people have talked about going from AB to Trinity but with A! added to the mix you have to make some assumptions about what the Inspired are and whether they change in time or not. If that statement about being physiologically incapable of knacks beyond level 3 is taken as physical law then it takes more than time and patience to grow beyond a certain limit.

This may not be a real problem since the Inspired never have to worry about (a) Taint from either the Psi or AB point of view; and (B) Destroying the world accidentally. It may be a feature rather than a limitation.

Quote:
I now also wonder if their are any plain bog standard Stalwarts out there in the Aberrant period... and if that's what's meant by the fact the Thetis's MR node is fully developed but totally Latent. Maybe she's a Stalwart. That would back up my theory about at least a fair chunk of novas being Stalwarts even before they erupt.


I've wondered about that as well. Unfortunately, it's one of those gray areas again where the answer is hidden. I think you could make a good case for Mal's 1998 machinations simply altering the probabilities so greatly than people that would have been inspired (mesmerists or stalwarts) generally erupt into full blown novas with just enough of the psychomorphs to know that they are out there.

This also fits into the "Where are the Daredevils" discussion that Jager and Avernger were having. If you were merely (!?!) an Inspired would any really know that you were somehow different? Mesmerists would have been classed as psychomorphs under the Pandora Project and without the knowledge gained later by the Proxies of Trinity it would have been difficult to classify them as unusual. Stalwarts without the obvious stuff like body of bronze would, in comparison to novas, seem like capable normal people. And of course the Daredevils are the wildcards since they can't be 'proven' to exist. No real powers, no nodes, no weird genetic traits.

------------------
Tuesday Childe
having far to go...

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I only use the greater than sign to show a quote. I'll find another way. I never actually thought about the html thing.

secondly, where things are so loose I guess it's upto the storyteller. Don't own the APG so I have to make even more up.

I concede the point about only three novas with intergrated nodes that's why I said "so called second gen".

As to the inspired in Aberrant -- I maintain that any crazy baseline N! reporter who never gets hit while commentating on nova battles that lay waste to the area and those idiots who keep putting themselves in harms way in order to erupt but don't die or erupt are inspired.

I think Crysalis was developed as more than a way to cope with taint. I mean it's described as being like a second (or third or fourth) eruption. it's not just a way of coping with Taint it's a way of growing stronger.

note that it appears that second gen (in the proper sense of all novas born erupted to nova parents) have less trouble with Taint. Of course that may change once they hit puberty.

,,

btw, have you noticed that the Facets of inspiration are comparable with the archtypes of Teras. No I don't mean the same, I mean comparable. One difference being I don't recall the facets being mentioned in the IC section of Adventure. There are others.

Tam

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On the SecGen, I wasn't taking you to task. I've run into that as a common misconception and even been guilty of it until some pointed it out to me.

I agree with you on the idea of the Inspired being present in the nova age. But is difficult approaching impossible to prove anything with Daredevils because there are no signs except for statistical anomolies. They have to be there but how would you prove it even if people were willing to believe in the extraordinary below the level of nova power?

On the chrysalis, we could quote the developers but that would be no fun at all. How is it that chrysalis makes you stronger? Quantify, or at least qualify, that and it should make a good discussion. I'll stick with my characterization for the moment but you may have an insight into the matter that I lack.

I think you are reaching on the Teras and Inspiration comparison though. I have a lot of reservations about Teras as a philosophy let alone a way of life so I may be biased on this.

------------------

Tuesday Childe

having far to go...

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How does Chrysalis make a nova stronger? Well it allows the player to buy Quantum, node and certain powers at reduced cost doesn't it. I should bring my books to library with me. I'd say that is "making stronger". Yes it enables you to get rid of Taint but that doesn't seem to be it's main purpose.

The inspired in the nova age. The weird stories probably don't even get the same attention they did before N-Day (or indeed in the real world -- not that I think the inspired exist in the real world but freaky good luck and coincidences do and they make TV programs about them.)

The Inspiration - Teras thing. I know it's reaching but I think maybe someone could observe the facets and come up with an idea like Teras. Doesn't make it right.

Tam

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Wow! Cool new interface and it looks like Tam got to be the first to use it. I'm jealous!

Quote:
Yes it enables you to get rid of Taint

But it doesn't. It only allows you to have some influence in how the taint will be expressed.

Interestingly enough, the Aberrant measure of quantum manipulation in the Trinity Timeline is Taint. Anbody here know Trinity well enough to know if that applies to the Novas from planet Eden as well? The group that was formed by the Protectors that hung out in Anarctica before the nova age? If they are different, then its possible the games of Trinity and AB are closer than we realize. The aberrants of Trinity would be the offspring and survivors of the Teragen. Oh, crap! I just pictured little Bungee as an aberrant. That really ruined my mood.

As far as it's main purpose; I've heard several theories and a statement or two by the developers. Jager often describes it as a wedge to further divide mankind from novas, which reinforces the Teragen belief that novas must seperate from humanity. Bruce Baugh calls it a necessary tool that allows Teragen to continue pushing the quantum envelope without winding up as a Cthulian made of solid mercury and 60 seconds away from total meltdown.

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I know it's reaching but I think maybe someone could observe the facets and come up with an idea like Teras.

It's weird. I was all set to argue this one with you and then I really thought about it. Primoris (later to be known as Divis Mal) may well have identified the facets of Inspiration. Of course since he didn't have a copy of Adventure! he called them something else. Something like Marvel, Portent and Monster. This may have been humor on his part but more likely he was expounding on a natural classification of the implicate order and blindly applied that to human psychology.

In other words, I initially thought you were dead wrong but have changed my opion and regard it as a very insightful observation. Very frosty, Tam!

[ 10-06-2001: Message edited by: Tuesday Childe ]

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Wow! Cool new interface and it looks like Tam got to be the first to use it. I'm jealous!


Nah. it's the first time I've seen it

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quote:
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Yes it enables you to get rid of Taint
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But it doesn't. It only allows you to have some influence in how the taint will be expressed.



Just checking are we talking about Chrysalis the process or Chrysalis the Quantum Cocoon? Because I'm talking about the latter not the former.

Quote:
Interestingly enough, the Aberrant measure of quantum manipulation in the Trinity Timeline is Taint. Anbody here know Trinity well enough to know if that applies to the Novas from planet Eden as well? The group that was formed by the Protectors that hung out in Anarctica before the nova age? If they are different, then its possible the games of Trinity and AB are closer than we realize. The aberrants of Trinity would be the offspring and survivors of the Teragen. Oh, crap! I just pictured little Bungee as an aberrant. That really ruined my mood.



nope. Eden Novas use Taint as well. As I recall in the Trinity Era they are only just beginning to realise that Quantum and Taint are different. When they say they detect Taint they usually mean Quantum that's why quantakinetic effects register as low level taint effects.

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As far as it's main purpose; I've heard several theories and a statement or two by the developers. Jager often describes it as a wedge to further divide mankind from novas, which reinforces the Teragen belief that novas must seperate from humanity. Bruce Baugh calls it a necessary tool that allows Teragen to continue pushing the quantum envelope without winding up as a Cthulian made of solid mercury and 60 seconds away from total meltdown.



I tend to go with a combination of both. Taint alienates you from your humanity anyway. Chrysalis enables you to do that with out going mad. I'm rather afraid there's a certain amount of it's going to happen anyway.

The real question of course revovles around whether Chrysalis is a natural process or an artificial one. It has aspects of both.


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quote:
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I know it's reaching but I think maybe someone could observe the facets and come up with an idea like Teras.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's weird. I was all set to argue this one with you and then I really thought about it. Primoris (later to be known as Divis Mal) may well have identified the facets of Inspiration. Of course since he didn't have a copy of Adventure! he called them something else. Something like Marvel, Portent and Monster. This may have been humor on his part but more likely he was expounding on a natural classification of the implicate order and blindly applied that to human psychology.


Exactly my point. smile
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In other words, I initially thought you were dead wrong but have changed my opion and regard it as a very insightful observation. Very frosty, Tam


eek Frosty? I'm not sure how to take that. :P
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Just checking are we talking about Chrysalis the process...


Yes. You can [try to] use chrysalis to ensure you don't end up as Chthulian beastie made of solid mercury but you still get all the taint fun as baselines quiver and have epileptic seizures due to your mere presence. I'm exagerating that a tad...

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Nope. Eden Novas use Taint as well. As I recall in the Trinity Era they are only just beginning to realise that Quantum and Taint are different.


That doesn't quite make sense does it? Trinity isn't my favorite game but when the Upeo met the Edenites, didn't they remark that Apollo Millikan had very little Taint? And this was a nova that vaporized a space fleet of Chromatics.

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The real question of course revovles around whether Chrysalis is a natural process or an artificial one. It has aspects of both.


Where quantum power is concerned I'm not certain there is a difference.

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Originally posted by Tamazin:
Frosty? I'm not sure how to take that.


A very cool insight into the world, Tam. Elegant and innovative. Good to hear from you. It's been a bit on the quiet side lately.

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Yes. You can [try to] use chrysalis to ensure you don't end up as Chthulian beastie made of solid mercury but you still get all the taint fun as baselines quiver and have epileptic seizures due to your mere presence. I'm exagerating that a tad...


Taint is going to happen anyway unless you never max out, take the quick route or try to recover quantum faster than you should. (And is there any reasonable In character reason to do that -- I know that if I had a player doing that sort of thing I'd suspect meta-gaming). Therefore you are going to end up estranged from baselines. You tell me if it's better to be sane(ish) and estranged or mad and estranged.

Okay I know not all novas go mad but it seems all will become tainted to some degree.

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That doesn't quite make sense does it? Trinity isn't my favorite game but when the Upeo met the Edenites, didn't they remark that Apollo Millikan had very little Taint? And this was a nova that vaporized a space fleet of Chromatics.



Actually it's after the Upeo return. A vitakinetic scans him and comments that he has less taint than some D sufferers. The rules section in Stellar Frontier lists his Taint as 7. This tied together with the fact an Abberrant on KLG is managing to pose as a human with a taint disease tells us the humans with taint diseases have high levels of Quantum buildup. Like high enough that if it looks human an insane abberant can pass for one. <shudder>

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A very cool insight into the world, Tam. Elegant and innovative. Good to hear from you. It's been a bit on the quiet side lately.



I like looking at things from alternative angles.

Tam

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