Further Deletions

[SJEllis]

There have been a further spate of deletions on the old WW boards, this time to do with requests for an Adventure forum.

Conrad pulled his usual trick of deleting without explanation, and then deleting new topics asking if things had just been deleted.

Apparently this time he has decided that anything on the Adventure topic is not fit for the usually generalist Book Review board, despite there having been a topic on the subject there for the last 3 weeks, and multiple topics on unrelated matters.

It also appears from his irate posts that he has suffered such a hissy-fit at the repeated requests from Aeoniverse fans for Adventure to have its own space, that he will now be combining the relatively popular Aberrant and Trinity boards into one and call it the "Trinity Universe" board for Adventure, Aberrant and Trinity.

He seems to have ignored the part where people wanted a seperate Adventure board so they could discuss the game without spamming up the Abbie and Trinity boards as is currently the case.

Oh well.

SJE

[Sidious]

oh no power doesn't go to peoples heads does it?

[Matt]

I understand why they get tired from the bitching about wanting a specific book for game X. That would cost them money. But I have never understood why it has been such a big deal for a forum to be added. Granted I'm just a fanboy running a little Aberrant site, but even I have an Adventure forum. And when the mood strikes me, or circumstances require it, I add additional forums. I run this site without pay, and have you ever read where I bitched to you guys because you want something to make the place more enjoyable for you? Hell no. If it does, I will leave the site. I understand the fact that this site is for the people reading this, not me. Your happiness is paramount to the site's existence. But I guess I'm I just blindly following the blind.

[SJEllis]

And I appreciate it Chosen!

You have my thanks, and I'm sure many others for providing an efficient, non-partisan service.

I especially like the way, when discussion strays (as it inevitably does on the Net) that you move the discussion to the apropriate forum but always give an explanation. I respect that. Plus the lack of anonymous deletes.

Steve

[Final_Knight]

To phrase is succintly:

CH has acted, unsurprisingly, once again like a 5 year old child. No one was "bitching" in the deleted posts (I had read them before their untimely demise), they were simply asking questions. The only crime they committed was not shoving their noses directly up CH's sphincter in the course of their asking.

Once again, we have the reaction on the Aberrant and Trinity forums of a bunch of people kissing up to CH despite the fact that he was in the wrong.

Ah well. I've preordered Adventure!, and with it being only one book, at least I can finally say that WW won't get any more of my money. Feels quit liberating, really...

So yes, Sidious, you are correct.

[SJEllis]

Oh dear, it seems the following question posed by yours truly,

"Errm.... Conrad,

Isnt the request for Adventure to have a _seperate_ forum so it doesnt spam up the existing Trinity and Abbie boards as it is doing even with these emails?

SJE"

was enough to result in the following from Conrad Hubbard who said

"You mean like you folks spammed up the Review and Exalted forums? Whatever sje1. Your record for endlessly attacking the company is well established, in fact right there in the Review forum, and if it continues I will just remove you from the forums."

And all of a sudden my old ID and password stopped working.

So I guess I was banned. Thats a pity because I've always tried to be reasonable and courteous on the net, but this does annoy me somewhat. Especially as I have submitted a number of positive reviews for WW products, and even contributed a bit here and there to fan sites such as this very website.

I have experimented however, and found I could create a new user-ID and regain access to the forums. Does this mean then that its impossible to ban anyone using their normal computer, or that it simply requires more time and effort to block my computers IP address?

Steve

[Avenger]

Sorry to hear about your untimely run-in with the infamous CH, fellow. He's a motherfucker like that, as I understand.

Incidentally, don't let him convince you he can do anything more than continue to delete your accounts. Conrad can't ban yours or anybody's IP address. All he can do is delete every new account you make as soon as you get it.

I pander to the man because I'm more useful in than out. I don't like Conrad and I don't like the way he runs things, but me getting banned won't do me or anyone any good. So for now, I'll skate the line of civility.

But then, even I can only take so much.

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Guest]

Yeah...I think for a guy that accuses "you all" of overreacting (though that's not generalizing and insulting.....or so he says) and behaving like children he sure takes things personal doesn't he?

Well there's something I posted to the larger of the two "Use these forums" under my new name "Gotham"....which will likely get me banned again if CH reads this I suppose but ah well...it matters not to me....I've been unfairly banned once, why should twice make me that much more annoyed.

Its about Kane Knight who asked why it seemed like a good idea to keep people in the dark about Adventure for so long, ignore civil requests for info, and then get all angry.

CH responded by insulting kane, saying he doesn't keep his word since he came back to forums, claimed he didn't abide by the use agreements (which is false) and generally he acted like an incredible ass.

My response was simple, honest, and to the point. I said nothing inflammatory and told Conrad I thought his posts seemed "hurtful" and that they didn't help matters.

Let's see if I get banned.

Also if these posts all go bye-bye interested parties can have me email them my post as well as the part of Conrad's I responded to. Just ask here and I'll send ya a copy.

Personally I'm sick of this guy's attitude. I've worked with public face to face for many years (sometimes in less than ideal circumstances to say the least). I've also worked in the game industry four several years prior to re-entering academic life. I've been threatened, yelled at, cursed at, and insulted (by customers and co-workers in both fields) and I will say that in my opinion he gets no sympathy from me for his reponses to what he has to "put up with" and how "ungrateful" everyone is. I would dare suggest he doesn't even know the meaning of the word.

To quote one of his workmates (though not about him) "it's people like him that give gamers a reputation for having poor social skills."

[Sidious]

oh god, just read some of Conrad's posts....... does realise that he's doing the same thing he's accusing people of and deleteing them for or is he just to blind to see he's causing the flame war himself by picking on a few phrases and missquoting them.

Anyway made a suggestion that we make one big aeon-verse site (ala BJ Zanzibar's) and continue with our chosen games like we got new releases and such. (read the post you'll get the idea)

Yeah I'm Darque. i suppose that by tomorrow my ID will be deleted but i doubt that Conrad would ever venture out to a forum where he's not king.

[Guest]

Well if he deletes you for said suggestions then he should delete me too..after all that's how it happened last time right? We got kicked for asking a few questions and criticizing the deletions of others and then Final got kicked for stuff he did long ago (and I'm not even gonna argue if that stuff was inflammatory or no cause it was six months before his deletion in any event) that Conrad was still pissed about.

Maybe it will be Kane-Knight who gets the arbitrary axe in this fashion...he sure seems to be pissed at him now.

Really though I wish there was some way to file some sort of mass complaint....nothing really mean just a "we think Conrad's behavior is exagerrated, unfair, and at times even misrepresentative of the situation."

I'm not even saying he's "totally wrong"...much of what he has said is opinion and interpretation..he's just being manipulative with the medium and doing so at times such as weekend late evenings in inflammatory and accusatory ways that lead me to believe this is personal rather than professional. And that's fine too, as long as he does hide behind the mask of professionalism.

After all, If called any of you immature, irresponsible, or malicious (and these are some of the nicer things) and then made it difficult if not impossible for you to speak your case to the people who you had spoken said words to..what would you call it?

And before we start on the whole "legally empowered" thing again I'd like to add that as a law student I'm all in the know about the "legally empowered" bit...but we're talking about ethical business practices and personal agendas here..not laws.

Or...

Might may makes Laws but it does not make Right. And given White Wolfs general "we're free thinking alternative outsiders" image that a marked majority of them cultivate at cons and gaming gatherings everywhere I find these acts wholly hypocritical.

And am I really that mad? Nah...got better things to do most of the time. But I hate rudeness, false accusations, and I'm an isomniac...so do the math.

[Gerald Haney]

Personally I am getting damn sick of CH's attitude. He will never name specific names or site specific examples because he must realize that no one person is being as negative as he seems to think we are.

What is laughable is that there is an obvious double standard. While I don't play Vampire I have wandered through their forum and I have seen posts bitching about the third edition (or whatever edition it is on right now)and how it is the biggest piece of crap to come down the pike in an eon. They seem to simply be involved in 'constructive criticism' I guess.

[Final_Knight]

Unsurprisinly, I'm banned again. :-)

And, sadly, but quite unsurprisingly, there are a number of posts that are now cowtowing and kissing up to CH. Dr.Zero has a fun one up, though, titled "Politely Mr. Conrad Hubbard," that is worth reading, but you'd best hurry. I have a feeling it won't be there long.

Are we having fun yet?

[Guest]

But the Vampire players bought a million copies of....oh nevermind you've heard it before.

Wrong. The vampire players bought one copy, there are just more of them. CH seems to think that while WW owes us nothing, we owe WW (and him personally) something.

Or maybe he's mad at everyone and the smaller game's fanbase is easier to punk on cause "nobody cares". Or maybe he's got some big thing personally against the Aeoneverse (maybe a buddy of his got fired when the initial Trinity push set the company back).

I don't know and I don't care. Its bad PR, bad customer service, and one of the reasons why on non-WW gaming related sites people dismiss many of WW games as "dark and brooding with an attitude...problem." (Though to be fair that's short sighted mostly on their parts this sort of stuff doesn't help).

Also I know that the man would never dare be so insulting, rude, arbitrary, or meanspirited to the faces of any of the people he's trashing.

(And that's a big pet peeve of mine since I will say nothing online I won't say to your face...I think hiding behind an electronic mask while you spew accusations and insults is the height of cowardice.)

So here's a wake up call for anyone who cares....this isn't new people. He did this at least once before and he's deleting not only your posts but those of his that people are throwing constructive criticism at.

Kane Knight got axed tonight....if he decides to kick muffinlad off I think he's got a clean sweep (cept Avenger who's got some kind of weird immunity that I don't quite understand..but then neither does he I think).

[Wizard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack:
(cept Avenger who's got some kind of weird immunity that I don't quite understand..but then neither does he I think).

One must live to tell the tale. It holds the rest them in line when they see a living example of the damned.

[Avenger]

Living example of the damned?

Again, I can't even guess at what CH's game is in all this. I know why I'm there as far as I'm concerned. But as for Conrad...he's an enigma to me. I don't see how keeping me around does him any good.

Perhaps it's professional courtesy. After all, I've been on those forums almost as long as he.

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Wizard]

Sorry. It was a line from an old pirate movie.

I try to walk the middle path and see both points of view but this current situation seems to be the result of a snit. A snit I don't quite understand. Mind you, some of the more vocal Abbie fans would have long since pissed me off if I had any official ties to WW or a professional responsibility to the line but such is not the case. Even so, combining all the forums into one seems to be designed to piss off the Aeron line fans and nothing else. In view that the action was taken to "give us the Adventure forum we were crying for" seems a specious argument to me.

As you know, we're dealing with three seperate games and to put them together like this will only engender confusion and hard feelings. I would guess that the situation is not remediable at the moment or Montano would be talking to CH about it. As the Adventure Developer he has a professional stake in the matter.

I sent both an email to ask what the "official" reason is behind the action and am waiting to see what the responses are. I hope that Montano's response will provide some insight but again the we're probably stuck with the situation. In the past, I had gone to the WW forums for the posts from the people that don't post here and for Montano's comments. In the future I think I will probably just come here directly and avoid the distaste that partaking the WW forum currently gives me.

Well, back to the grind. I owe the others a few thousand words of story logs and I'm rewriting a lot of it from scratch since I had a computer crash the other night. BTW- your suggestion on coding the subject lines was a good one. Unfortunately, Montano's agreement that we need to do that seems to indicate that the situation will not change in the immediate future.

Hmmmm... a thought just occured to me, not a good one. If CH can take an irrational action like this and the Adventure developer can't do anything more than say oh well, what does that mean about CH's position in WW?

[Avenger]

Funny you should mention that. I've puzzled for a while over why Conrad seems to weild so much power. I always thought he was just a sysadmin for the WW page, but it's now becoming a little evident that he is altogether something more. I don't trust him, and I don't honestly trust WW. Conrad seems to have more power over what happens on that site than the Developers do, and theres something wrong about that. Checks and balances, dammit. Checks and balances.

Bummer about the forums. Seems to me that Conrad didn't have the forum amalgamization planned until people started "whining" about an Adventure! forum. He's since proven time and time again to be a reactionary prick. He either takes his job way too seriously or he's just a bully who gets off on throwing his weight around.

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Sidious]

well on the bright side we now have a developer on the forums...... not our developer but one none the less.

[Wizard]

I wonder if Montano would accept an invitation to join us here on the forum? I may have to send him one, nicely worded, and ask him what he thinks of Chosen's little oasis.

[Thingmaker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Avenger:
I've puzzled for a while over why Conrad seems to weild so much power. I always thought he was just a sysadmin for the WW page, but it's now becoming a little evident that he is altogether something more.

The following is straight out of WW's employee bio page:

Quote:

In 1997 he participated in a playtest group for Trinity and managed to peddle that contact into a chance to write some material. Established contacts and a long running fansite he maintained turned into a chance to be White Wolf's webslave, and Conrad moved to Atlanta in September of 1999.

also

Quote:

After writing a little bit for the Trinity and Battleground lines and a tiny part of the Mokole book and generally being a nuisance to Chris, Andrew and Rob, I returned to my comfortably numb existence in the IT department of a megacorp Forbes magazine called one of the top 100 places to work. Somehow my sputtering dreams continued to scream out into the void until one day a call came back out of the abyss.

One of the top 100 places to work, but not for Conrad if I'm reading that right. Judging by his website (there's a link from the bio) looks like he'd be happier as a full-time author. Maybee it's career burnout or mid-life crisis. He's almost old enough for it.

His influence at WW? My guess (and that's all it is, a guess) is that it has something to do with the market shortage of IT proffessionals. If WW is running on the same size shoestring as most gaming companies, they probably have an easier time paying in prestige than competitive wages for IT positions.

I'm having a very hard time composing this post. This is my third try at this paragraph. I very much want to avoid indulging in any knee-jerk reactionary bullshit. Emotions keep welling up, though. Within arm's reach I've got several hundred dollars worth of WW products. I've got a lot of enjoyment and a little enlightenment out of the forums at WW (as well as here). It's hard for me not to feel "short changed" by what's happening. Still, It's just one guy. Conrad works for WW but he's not WW. There's a whole list of authors and developers there, both staffers and freelancers, that I still want access to.

Maybee I'll just stop reading Conrad's posts.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thingmaker:
His influence at WW? My guess (and that's all it is, a guess) is that it has something to do with the market shortage of IT proffessionals. If WW is running on the same size shoestring as most gaming companies, they probably have an easier time paying in prestige than competitive wages for IT positions.

Somehow, I highly doubt that. From what I've been reading, there seems to be lack of IT jobs, not professionals, especially those with web experience (all the dot-coms going under, and not too many starting up again). If they really wanted to, I don't think it'd be that hard to find a replacement. (only as hard as finding any other sort of professional, really)

[Winter_Heart]

What an interesting little post.

You know, I got banned the first time... I was winter_heart... came back as W_H with my e-mail addy as winter_heart@videotron.ca.

I don't think he even remember banning me, I was probably caught in the cross fire.

I didn't catch most of what happened this time, I simply didn't care much for it, especially once I saw Conrad would be is usual snide self.

I did ask him on the new forum if he could make a few change, and although I remained civil, he proceeded to rip my post apart, pretty much accusing me of tunnel vision because I was asking for a special treatment for our forum.

He also made other fun comment on how LARP people must be more adaptive as they have 5 games in one forum and never complain... in which I thought was a rather ridiculous comment.

But like Sidious said (I think), at least now we have a developer on the forum...

[This message has been edited by Winter_Heart (edited 08-13-2001).]

[Father Ryan]

If he were a Nova, God would help me to hunt him down and exterminate him like the unholy tainted child of Lucifer that all Aberrants are.

If life were a game that is.

Actually after reading that I feel quite sorry for him.

However getting angry on line never does any good. I do hope he calms down a bit.

[The Ranger]

I run a web design company full time. I have offered WW in the past to allow us to revamp (on pun intended) their site to allow faster access and better usability (my specialty) but no response.

I think that part of the problem may be that WWs marketing and development departments are not paying attention to what is clearly a fantastic source of market research. Who knows, maybe Conrad is deleting posts before the marketing team see them

[Kane Knight]

I e-mailed conrad last nite. Considering he had me banned 2 minutes after I posted, I would like to think that he would respond with the same level of haste. As it is, it appears me IP was blocked, because I couldn't re-sign with me alternate e-mails...

All for things I didn't even do. Tho it's only been about 16 hours, I don't hold much hope. I am, however, trying to be civil. I simply explained that he had me pegged as someone else, that I felt I had been wrongfully banned.

However, I still find his attitude distasteful. I really cannot respect someone who'll ban you and THEN take cheap shots at ya. And I think steps have to be taken here.

Jack mentions a mass effort. Anyone here care to draft up a petition, carefully worded, for petitionsonline.com? Something like this might be the way to go. I have trouble believing the rest of White Wolf is as trigger happy as Conrad, and maybe it can do some good.

I just can't come up with a strong but rational wording, explaining what the consensus here seems to feel.

[Winter_Heart]

I would sign such a petition.

I'm not the most eloquent person on this board tho.

[Kane Knight]

Whoops, edit time!

Well, I Did get a reply from Conrad, justifying his actions by saying that I was acting like final. Guilt by association, perhaps? You agree with a guy a few times, call him brother, and you must be like him? Is this the same company that did the Caine and Abel myth?

So anyways, I'm still banned...

------------------

The Eleventh Wonder of the World.

Hype, Sacrelige, Uniforms...

In loving memory of the integrity of the White Wolf Forums (RIP)

[This message has been edited by Kane Knight (edited 08-14-2001).]

[Guest]

Well even I didn't think he was gonna change his mind...even if he admitted (sorta) that was what he had done...but it was worth a shot...especially since it shows you tried to be reasonable and communicate (save that e-mail BTW..you never know when such things might be useful). BTW is the IP still blocked or is you old account just still gone?

But sadly it generally seems Mr. Hubbard puts way too much of his ego and self-esteem into being "right". Even when I agree with him I find an underlying tone of "I am right thus I am superior" lurking under the surface. Not that he's alone in this and this is just my analysis...but it seems he's one of those people that needs to be in the right..even if it means demonizing others.

Who knows, maybe his opinion of the Aeonverse stuff is colored by a subconscious feeling of what he sees as a failure on his part as someone involved with the game during its big push and later sharp decline. If that were true then he may be lashing out and overracting as people's questions and comments bring up doubts in his own mind and remind him of his own "failures". He does seem to use "the bottom line" and "product sucess" as a reason for everything ...even things that don't really cost mcuh..like an Adventure forum. You could reason that's part of doing business but his comments like "...million copies like Vampire" indicate to me that he seems to view the fans/customers of one line as "you guys" and that their worth and right to express themselves is proportional to their buying power...and before anyone argues that is the nature of business I would argue he seems unable or unwilling to realize that many of said customers have or do buy other WW products as well (I bought Mummy and Exalted both this summer for example). No, we're just "those damn Aberrant-Trinity- (Adventure????) fans."

Interesting enough he also seems to take people questioning or defending his "tormentors" negatively as well, suggesting a limited ability to view the situation from the point of view of others. This sort of lack of empathy combined with a sense of responsibility due to his position, a high stress level (form a number of sources perhaps), and a tendency to equate his actions as correct or at least immediately forgivable (note his defense of the use of the phrase "you all" as a Southern tendency with a companion statement that implied it was unreasonable to assume he would know the "correct" way of putting his thoughts into words from every dialect and region... But his inability to accept phrases like "We feel" or "Its seems to us" shows that he is unwilling or unable to extend the same courtesy to others.

The fact that he has a legal right makes things more complex, though he has criticize "legal" actions by foreign powers and our government as immoral on the forum before suggests he is also unable or unwilling to see the double standard of using his legal right as a shield while demonizing others who use their legal powers in manner some see as abusive, immoral, or at least an overraction (For example he's criticized the Israelis and British in Northern Ireland for their actions...in ways I even tend to agree with...but the actions of these bodies are "legal" and they do have a "legal right" to commit the acts they do).

So I hate to say it but he seems to be a complex mix of insecure and overconfident, or morally outraged and empathically incapable. He's not alone in this. A former business partner and good friend of mine was like this....

He slept with my girlfriend, hit on another one, tried to get me fired, didn't do work and then blamed me for it lack of completion. He was often criticizing others about their "morality" "attitude" and "ethics" while he dodged assignments, lied about work he had done and falsified results to get promotions and additional funds. And when he finally got caught (by me and a few others) and after we finally convinced everyone else that he had a problem (which was very difficult as he had previously poisoned many of them with comments on how "lazy" "stupid" and "deceitful" we all were.) He left the company (with a nice fat settlement he fanagled from the owners..including ownership of his "company" car) said how sorry he was, and when the coast was clear went back to lying about people, badmouthing everyone (especially myself at this point), and dodging every responsibility he could.

Now I'm not saying CH is this bad...but I see the same "voice" and methods that I now see in retrospect in regards to my old buddy. At the time I didn't (largely cause I had my own problems to work through and was too busy working anyway).

But I digress....

Me? I pepper my posts with "it seems" and "in my opinion" cause that's what they are. CH is very authoratative in his demeanor (even when he's not being beligerent) His posts come off like "this is the way it is" even when it is obviously opinion (to which I suppose he'd say "Well if its obviously an opinion and everyone could see it then you're just being a troublemaker for point out how I said it")

Finally, for fun...pick out your favorite posts on the forum...from posters, WW staff, you name it.

Now compare them with Conrad's.....

If yer like me you'll see a subtly different "tone" of respect (for oneself and others), ability to see it the way others do, and ability to evaluate "scope", i.e. making a White Wolf out of a chihuahua....even when they are being "mean" or "hurtful" or any number of other things that I myself have been accused of being by CH (Or at least I assume he was talking about me...he banned me after all).

But that's just my opinion. My views and analysis. I'm not even sure if I believe it all myself, nor do I say it is a solid psychological profile. If anyone agrees I'd love to hear it. If they disagree I'd love to as well.

[Winter_Heart]

I'm not as long winded as you are (or should it be long-written?), but yes, I do agree.

Especially about his inability to understand/believe that we do buy other WWGS product. For crying out loud, I have _every_ Werewolf: the Apocalypse book ever release in my shelve.

Yet I'm grouped in the 'you people' list.

[Final_Knight]

Wow. Jack, that was impressive. I would have said it much shorter and just said CH was an overgrown child. After all, what you described is exactly that: childishness. Still, you _are_ good! (Btw, e-mail me with an update on the move when you get a chance.)

Kane: Well, bro, sorry that association with me has led to your oppression at the hands of the Child. For whatever it's worth, I'd be happy to e-mail CH and set him straight. He he heh...

[Final_Knight]

Oh yeah, and one more thing:

How does one confuse me and Kane?? Kane ain't NEVER as blunt as I am. :-)

[Guest]

This was an interesting post Ch made on the Exalted forum regarding a post about key20's Little Fears and a poster who planned to do a crossover with it and Exalted.

"This is not the advertising column for other games by other companies."

Now that's not the interesting part really. The interesting part if that on said thread the Exalted developer posted and discussed that he owned Little Fears. His opinions of the game were pretty neutral (as are mine) but he did comment (maybe they'll cane him at the office tommorrow).

Now to be fair I didn't see if there were other posts on the Exalted forum discussing other games but it seemed that was the only one. If there were a bunch I could see it...sorta.

Now while I would hardly call this "bad" or "mean" it makes me wonder. If a Kindred of the East players asked about other Eastern RPGS and I recommended Legend of the 5 Rings and gave him a basic run-down..would that be "wrong" of me? Or if I discussed what I liked about say 3rd Ed D&D vs. Exalted (which ain't much I'm afraid) would that be "inappropriate". Its not like someone from Key20 cmae on and said "buy our game WW forum people". Heck, the guy didn't even say much except to point to a rpg.net review on the game.

And if CH didn't seem to wandering the forums looking for "excuses" to speak and act up I think its fair to say I never would have noticed or commented. So what's that say.

But hey, at least he said please...does that mean Exalted fans warrant more politeness?

[Guest]

Nevermind..answered my own question...from the Trinity Forum...

Poster in regards to Exalted CD-Rom

I just saw this on the main page. I would buy that in a sec if they came out with a CD-ROM of abby, not just the stuff they had in the exalted one but like the core rules and the APG's stuff, maybe even a random nova generator.

They could do it for trinity or Adventure also.

I rember when TSR first did it with all there big books and though about how great a idea it was then and how great it be now.

CH

[[[[[[i rember when TSR first did it with all there big books]]]]]]]

"big books".

Heh. Funny where I come from that's "civilized customer input" not "target for pissy comeback." Especially since even the Exalted developer admits that Exalted is "just out" and it will "take time" before accurate sales figures are availiable.

Sure you could argue the Exalted Limited sold out and it had the CD but you could also say that the majority of people who wanted the CD bought the limited....course If WW has a bunch of CDs lying around then that makes sense....but the attitude still doesn't.

[Sidious]

just thought I'd bring up how they changed the use terms on the main page here's the addition.

"These use terms do _not_ apply equally to White Wolf employees. It is our server and life isn't fair"

looks like Conrad got a promotion to god. God of what I'll never know.

[Sidious]

well I went and did it. i wrote a letter to ww explaining how I and others were unhappy with CH's bad attitude towards all things Aeon-verse.

BTW, I didn't send it to him. Knowing him he'll find the ip and start bombing me. Sent it to Tim Avers and Chris M. Requested a reply letter and the office phone number.

I would strongly reccomend we take this course of action rather than try to talk sense to CH.

[Wizard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidious:
I would strongly reccomend we take this course of action rather than try to talk sense to CH.

Oddly, at first something about this gave me a bad feeling (Intuition). Then I realized the worst that could happen would be:

- I have the last of the Abbie books now that WW will ever put out.

(I would have preferred to have a Black Dog publication of Cult of Personality but I can live with it.)

- Adventure remains a single book.

(So CH has another theory about publically announcing that little fact... Stuff it. I courteously asked for the plan and got a courteous and straight answer. And it wasn't from him.)

- The Aberrant Forum goes away.

(Ummm... it already went away? As did the Trinity and still-borne Adventure forums. Why not go out of your way to annoy everyone that ever bought the product line and not just the ten or so people that personally annoy you. Oh, you've already done that by combining the three. Nevermind.)

- Everyone annoys everyone else and even Bruce Baugh gets digusted and goes to work for WoTC.

(This would be bad, very very bad.)

For anyone taking this course of action I have only three recommendations:

- Keep it factual and avoiding drawing conclusion about CH, his work, or his intentions. If you do, it comes down to credibility. Guess who they're going with?

(I am merely a customer that is wondering why the coolest gaming company in the world is being rude, discourteous and unhelpful. Why won't you let me buy your games? Don't you want my money? What? You mean not everyone here is like this?)

- Attach, in whatever manner of media is appropriate, examples of what you are talking about. There is a reason why CH is very succinct and curt in the replies he sends out. Why posts (including his) disappear. Why threads vanish instantly. No proof=no crime. Again, your word against the man.

- Do not attempt to speak for anyone else, even your best friend that loaned you a kidney when you were 5 and took a bullet for you in 'Nam and was subsequently treated like dirt by CH. That's called heresay. Let him speak for himself. In a matter such as this volume does have an effect.

Do I really think you should do this?

(Uh... Wiz, they didn't ask you.)

Well, if they were asking me then?

(That's different. Go ahead.)

No.

I think you should wait a couple of weeks, preferably a month. Wait for them to get out of their busiest time of the year and for emotions on both sides to subside. Then send a request to CH for whatever it is you want. A name, a forum, whatever. Tell yourself the balls in his court and when he says no (assuming he does) then send email to the company.

Hell, ask me here and I will personally deliver the telephone number for the company to this forum. No, I don't have it yet but I am willing to put a couple of hours of my life into tracking it down if everybody would just chill out for a minute.

Well, that's all I wanted to say.

[This message has been edited by Wizard (edited 08-15-2001).]

[Final_Knight]

Sidious,

I've sent my letter, and like you, I encourage everyone else to as well. CH has had plenty of time to simmer down after his last childish purge. That didn't stop him from doing it again. Send those letters people. If CH is going to represent his company, then they need to either support him, and lose us, or take appropriate measures with him, and retain our money. Since, as CH is so fond of pointing out, it's all about money.

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Final_Knight:
Kane: Well, bro, sorry that association with me has led to your oppression at the hands of the Child. For whatever it's worth, I'd be happy to e-mail CH and set him straight. He he heh...

It doesn't matter. He apologised for the confusion, then told me I was acting like you.

If that's true, you musta been banned for being the voice of reason...

------------------
The Eleventh Wonder of the World.

Hype, Sacrelige, Uniforms...

[Kane Knight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Final_Knight:
Oh yeah, and one more thing:
How does one confuse me and Kane?? Kane ain't NEVER as blunt as I am. :-)

Yeah, I've heard that before...I'm so restrained...So polite...

And it's for this reason that I've been investigated/harrassed by the Feds and high level authorities...*G*

------------------
The Eleventh Wonder of the World.

Hype, Sacrelige, Uniforms...

[Thingmaker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Wizard:

Hell, ask me here and I will personally deliver the telephone number for the company to this forum. No, I don't have it yet but I am willing to put a couple of hours of my life into tracking it down if everybody would just chill out for a minute.

Tim Avers
Customer and Public Relations White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
(404) 292-1819 (ext. 264)