Who witnessed the purge?

[Hugin]

Did anyone see what exactly got posted on the White Wolf Aberrant forum that pissed off Conrad so much?

The posts that have resulted since have since seemed a little restained, because obviously WW is very willing to alienate their fans who don't support them blindly.

So, whats anyone know?

[Matt]

I read the message from conrad today, but didn't see what transpired beforehand. Now even his message is gone.

[Hugin]

Yah, it looks like even talking about the purge is now verboten. Well, screw the fans I guess.

[MegaBee]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Did anyone see what exactly got posted on the White Wolf Aberrant forum that pissed off Conrad so much?

The posts that have resulted since have since seemed a little restained, because obviously WW is very willing to alienate their fans who don't support them blindly.

So, whats anyone know?

I read the posts and, unless I missed one, they didn't seem all that bad. People were bitching about how White Wolf didn't care enough to support the Aberrant line and how KB wasn't doing a very good job of keeping the customer base informed, but I honestly didn't see anything that crossed the line to being inflamatory.

[Sidious]

As one of the purgees I read and wrote some of the posts.

No there wasn't anything inflamitory in them. just several observations and inferences from the facts at hand.

WW obviously doesn't or wont allow people to voice that they are disgruntled on their web site and after a full day of having our posts deleted we woke up to find our accounts canceled.

If that's how they wish to handle customer complaint and concearns fine. They obviously don't care about our opinions as witnessed by the purge.

I've gotten all the books from them that I'm going to get and have enough for year of play. They don't want my patronage and I decline from supporting their business model anylonger.

I still enjoy playing Aberrant and look forward to using what i have now for many years more.

PS: knida curious who else got the axe?

[This message has been edited by Sidious (edited 05-26-2001).]

[SJEllis]

I saw the Aberrant forum before the purges. I posted to the effect that Kraig Blackwelders decision to Arthaus Aberrant due to unspecified 'other projects' showed insufficient commitment to the line, and I speculated whether a petition to the WW management might mean we would get a full time developer. Others and muself also requested more information on what was going on with Aberrant and why emails were not being answered by Kraig, nor he informing the official forum of such changes.

A chap called Avenger then started a post on how he would be happy to be line developer for free.

Then everything related to the developer was deleted. Not just critical posts but the entire topic threads. (including, ironically one labelled 'In defense of the developer')

Then I posted a message asking why everthing had been deleted and what part of the use conditions had been violated.

A few people managed to reply before this topic and a few similar ones were deleted too.

Finally Conrad Hubbard (webmaster and reponsible for the deletions) posted a message saying (and this is from memory) that the forum was not for bad mouthing WW developers and that several peoples accounts had been deleted due to consistent criticism of WW. He also said that untruths or lies had been posted which violated the use terms. To my memory, the deleted posts only contained opinions and appeals for more information)

A number of people then apologised for anything they had said that might be contsrued as being offensive. I didnt respond as I didnt feel that a request for more information and a full time developer was anything inappropriate or wrong to ask for.

Much to my surprise, this same thread was then deleted.

In conclusion- I dont know whats going on with Conrad Hubbard who seems to have deleted everything to do with this entire topic. I cannot help but recall certain Stalinist historical revisionism which edited out unpleasant parts of history for the Soviets.

Thats a strong criticism, but we still dont know what has happened to Kraig Blackwelder, or the fate of the Aberrant line. Until we do, I dont think asking questions is anything we should be censored for.

I hope Conrad or Kraig reads this forum and can give us the facts as they see them.

SJE

[Guest]

Quote:

Originally posted by SJEllis:
I hope Conrad or Kraig reads this forum and can give us the facts as they see them.

As far as I know, no WW employee has or will ever read this forum, so don't expect anything official to occur here.

I wish I had some insider info to share that would brighten everyone's day, but I'm in the same boat as you guys.

[The Ranger]

White Wolf decide that free speech is a thing of the past eh? I'd be tempted to post to the WW forum and tell everyone interested in an unbiased view to come over here instead. Might cause some friction though and we don't want that. (plus I haven't an idea what my WW ID is any more)

[Guest]

Hey its Jack...y'know the guy who was on the Abby forum forever....

well, not anymore.

I got booted by Herr Hubbard...

why?

Dunno, and neither does anyone else cause he keeps deleting all the evidence....

[The Ranger]

Welcome Jack. What say we organise a mass defection to Nprime? Maybe that would wake up the WW directors.

Chosen is a great moderator. Never seen him delete a post. That means he's really sneaky at it Do I get points for sucking up?

[Matt]

Sure Ranger, you get 2 exp. points to spend however you want.

While I don't mind any help getting more people here, don't for a second think that would make any difference to White Wolf. They have a forum for your benefit, not theirs (ok, it is a marketing tool, but in Aberrant's case it isn't). The only thing that would matter to them is if you bought more/less books. And in the case of the Aeon Universe, I don't know how much that matters as they seem to be waiting for the right time to cancel the line with the least amount of hassle.

Let me say that I don't agree with the Free Speech thing in any way. They own the space that you put your messages on, so they can do whatever the hell they want to do with it. I didn't see what was originally written that cause all the fuss, so I'm not going to pass judgement on it's removal. I do know that some things that are posted should be deleted. In fact, Conrad may be a better moderator than myself because he does delete stuff. I just happen to be in a better position because none of you have paid anything to read what's on my site, so you don't have as much to complain about.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, I've started archiving old threads. When a thread goes 2 months without comment it gets archived. At least that's better than everything being deleted after a few weeks on WW's forum.

And Avenger said he's be the developer for free? The last thing in the world I would want is a fanboy to take over. You get what you pay for. And in White Wolf's case, they have expenses of printing the books, which I don't think would be that good if they were developed by a casual fan.

[The Ranger]

I can't argue with you there. The site I run has a forum section and we have had to remove one or two threads because of content in the past. (Mainly 'cos in Ireland we can be sued for what other people say on our site.)

I can understand Conrad's point but I can't agree with him removing the threads without explaination. Also disusering people without warning is a little harsh I think and only leads to bad feelings.

[Guest]

Okay gotta disagree with the free speech disagreement...

Is it legal for WW to delete post? Yes. But is it right? Well, that depends on your definition of right but I tend to feel that writers and publishers should encourage free speech....and in no way did I think the posts were worthy of deletion. As a law student I know all about what's legal...but as the son of a lawyer and later judge I have learned that's not always what's right.

and Conrad is a better moderator because he deletes....that's the same logic that rates cops my number of arrests and prosecutors by number of convictions....it sounds good at first but breaks down under close scrutiny.

And no, of course you don't want to have a developer do something for free, you get what you pay for...however, the nice thing about "fan boys" is they care....maybe too much. Game designers and such who look at it as "just a job" need to move on....ask comics industry people...they tend to weed out people quickly who don't love what they are doing...maybe the gaming industry should follow suit. It might be more successful that way...

Course it was statements like that last one that got me kicked off the WW forum. And that was perfectly legal....

But was it right?

[Wizard]

As someone who got to read the Avenger's offer take over as a developer post just before the purge began (no time to read the rest of the thread) I will say this:

It was the funniest post I have ever seen.

Written in the form of an open letter to KB, offering to take the job for free, it drew attention to concerns of:

- part time development/developers

- basing games book on personal games

- lack of commitment

- no published schedule of releases

- poor organization of books

... all without being, I thought, scathingly critical. Except for the comment about killing off Mal 'cuz he serves no purpose in the game that couldn't be filled by other characters. He did promise to substitute one of his own characters from personal gaming.

Again, I thought it was a humorous posting expressing many of the concerns which others had brought up previously. Besides, WW as a company doesn't care jack about what people are saying anyway. They're in it for the bucks. The developer's are the only ones that might listen to fans. Unfortunately, in this case they obviously don't give a damn anyway.

As far as the webmaster of the WW site, I thought the purge was a little heavyhanded. After all, WW doesn't seem to care what people are saying on the forum. The only difference here was that people were saying it in such a way as to draw attention to the fact that WW doesn't care.

[Sidious]

my thought is that most of them now need a critical stick-ectomy.

angels float because they take themselves lightly, they should try that POV.

[Guest]

There's an old Chinese saying I came upon long ago when I wasn't spending 20+ hours a day trashing White Wolf (Which comes a great surprise to all my friends and family since they all seem to think I'm only one a about a 1/2 hour or less a day....)

The Outstretched Hand Gets Slapped.

And we got slapped. Regardless of why the hand was outstretched it got slapped..after all we all know motive doesn't count (nor does evidence apparently).

[Stheno]

Sounds a bit like my favourite Russian proverb:

"The bird who sits on a fence gets shot."

[SJEllis]

Well, one reason for Kraigs absence has been given by Bruce Baugh over on the WW forum. I'm taking the liberty of copying the text from that message

"Contact with the customer base through venues like this is in fact _not_ part of the job description. The developer's work is purely and only to develop books for the line; any interaction at all with the public is optional, with varying degrees of desirability. It's not in our contracts, it does not generally affect performance reviews (and when it does is more likely to be a liability than an asset, if it's taking away attention from the work), and so on. Good net presence is something our bosses (at White Wolf and at other companies) appreciate but do not in general require."

So Kraig may still be a full time developer but he does not need to tell us anything about it.

While I accept Bruces point that the job description means he doesnt have to respond, I would argue the modern developer _should_ respond to questions and develop the active fanbase.

SJE

[Guest]

Exactly SJ....I never said that it was technically part of the job, just that it should be considered as such.

Take myself. I was a game designer for awhile and even when the situation I was in was getting really bad with my company I felt that I needed to touch base with the customers every once and awhile. Since I didn't have access to such a wonderful resource as a company owned forum I went to cons and talked to people, not just about the games I was doing but the industry and what they liked.

Did I take everything they said to heart? No. Did I agree with all of it? No. But I listened. This wasn't part of my job description either, all I had to do was write games, deal with freelancers, and coordination some intra-company stuff. But I did it because it was part of my job (if that disinction makes sense).

So I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about. And for the record, some of the best game designers I've ever met did the same thing (and some of those are WW developers...or former ones since they have moved on to other things).

I like Bruce. I often agree with him, But I think he is defending KB with technical statements and legal requirements. Which is good. He's part of WW and should do that for a fellow employee. So of the things I think he said from the post above I think are a bit "sneaky" in that they imply "If we did what you wanted as much as we seem to think you want we'd actually not be doing our jobs" which is something I've never heard anyone say personally. But again, he's defending his co-worker logically and fairly and that is a good thing. I'd rather have that than arbitrary deletions.

If that were true then Geoff Grabowski and Bruce himself must be horrible developers since they are some of the best of current WW developers when it comes to customer interaction.

[Guest]

Heh...got deleted again...not banned though.

I need to start copying these posts so I can show you guys what "horrible" things I'm saying.

Also, as an aside. If you delete posts on weekends (it like so many others disappears between friday night and sunday night) from your company forum I hazard to say that....

1) You are in fact engaging in personal actions and not corporate.

2) You are at least a bit conscious of doing said activities during "business hours".

So either we've got a helluva a work ethic or a personal vendetta hiding behind a company's legal right.

In other word's we can't win. Unless of course someone on the WW forum says "Person X is saying false statements and hateful things" then that's slander if it can be proved that those accusations are false (company owned medium or no).

Course nobody has done that and likely they won't. But the whole thing is a bit shady to the (admittedly cynical) investigative. eye.

[Wizard]

Jack, take it all with a grain of salt.

As funny as some of the posts were, a few crossed the line into abusive. And those that I found simply humorous were dependent on more than a passing degree of familiarity to be perceived as only humorous to someone with an actual responsiblitiy to the company. I have the luxury of seeing it as merely funny since I do not have any responsiblity to the company or a job to do for them and in their name.

As far as the times involved, I think you're reaching on this. If I had Conrad's job (guessing as to exactly what said job entails), I'd be using admin access from my home computer to access the forum and do the job from the comfort of my home rather than let things build up and take care of it when I was at the office. Time is not really a relevant issue in my mind.

Your position is tenable based on your perceptions of what was done and the responses it engendered. I imagine Conrad feels the same and that this is a situation which may well be blown out proportion to some extent by all party's involved.

Personally, I don't see this as a zero sum game wherein I cannot win unless they lose. I hope Conrad doesn't feel that way either but he's obviously annoyed by some of what's gone on and isn't going to respond well to what he feels is more of the same.

I would like to think that each post is being reviewed and that only those that are over the line are being deleted but I don't think this is the case unless I am completely off base on what the critieria is. I have to acknowlege the likelihood that communication in this medium is not perfect and some possibly erroneous perceptions of intent are held by all parties involved.

(look at some of the comms between Sovem and myself in the VIEW forum, it takes us forever to get on the same sheet of music although we ultimately seem to have similiar views)

I also have to acknowledge that there is a position of generalization being fortified by both the gamers (some) and the WW staff (some). I'm not going to go into depth on this one because I am limited on computer time at this moment and the subject could be the topic of a ten page treatise.

You know some people are touchy right now. Instead of attacking their positions, even with what seem to be the best of intentions, why don't you shift your responses and try to remove the possibility of being misunderstood.

Write an email to Conrad and Bruce rather than a post and tell them what they're doing well. There are several things. Put yourself in their position knowing already that they feel people have been personally abusive and targeted them, their company, people they may well be friends with... and that many of the posters have not wanted to hear things that didn't support their positions.

Ask them, nicely and supportively, what would be the best manner to get a question concerning a rule intent/interpetation answered. Let them know that you're asking because you know a lot of negative crap has gone on in the forums lately and you don't want to add to it or have your questions mistaken as criticism. Do this without inferring or implying conclusions as to fitness/competance/etc on anyones part.

I am fairly sure you will get a response, and a polite one. One sent in a short period of time which may well be sent on a weekend when they should be off and enjoying themselves. It may or may not satisfy you but take heart. When you get said response perhaps you will want to send back a thank you for the courtesy of a personal response, and hey just had a thought... would it be useful for them as WW employees to start a thread entitled something like "Free and mostly free ways to spread the knowledge of the game."

Point out that such a thread, with the stipulations they set (cost, time factors, WW staff vs gamer contributions, etc) coming from them would convey a sense that the company is interested thus alleviating some concerns on the part of the gamers. It might also be generate some useful ideas as we're a rather ecletic group. Finally, it would give a constuctive avenue for some to use their energy.

Re-reading my earlier post in this thread I realize this may seem like a change in my position. I will add that at that time I had read the avenger letter the previous day and and then been locked off from the responses as the purge had began. I saw some evidence in other threads and wrote the earlier post to this forum. After those events I went to the review forum and read what others had to say on the topic including Bruce and Conrad. I realized I was overly harsh and although what I said in the earlier post may well have truth to it, it is not the whole story.

Times up for me, sorry if any of this seems preachy and I apologise in advance if any of it seemed overly blunt.

[This message has been edited by Wizard (edited 06-03-2001).]

[Guest]

There's only one problem with what you've said Wizard and the rest I agree with...

I've already defended Bruce, Conrad, and White Wolf against worse comments than mine. I've had jobs similar to theirs. I've always tried to color even my criticisms with a hint of humor, a grain of salt, and a respect for the fact that working in the gaming industry is a tough gig. I've done it and parts of it suck majorly. I've always tried not to be one of those parts. But none of tht effort mattered one bit. Hell, I even corrected comment about White Wolf mag on the posts that got deleted that could have easily turned into another "WW sucks" series of postings.

And it seems apparent from Conrads comments, actions, etc.. that he doesn't care about any of that "becuase he's made as hell and isn't gonna take it anymore..."

Well that's fine. I went from mad as hell to rolling my eyes and shaking my head about a week ago. But I just can't/won't extend a friendly hand to someone who seems unwilling. And I will not make myself a target for riducle, insult, or whatver in this fashion. And quite honestly, I currently don't trust Conrad to do that. He's expressed personal feelings about the Aeonverse fans, his upcoming webwork on Adventure, and numerous other subjects that leads me to believe he is taking this incredibly personally and not only thinks this is fine and acceptable but a positive and even laudible way to be.

So I'll keep my olive branch for the time being. And as for Bruce. I think he's doing just fine. I even didn't trash him when he got preachy and nasty on the Trinity forum about 6 months ago. In fact, I said "He's got some good points and is obviously too mad to recognize their are some good points on the other side so everyone calm down."

I'm tired of being a peacemaker on that forum. And now that I have been robbed of my own name on the place (yes Jack is my name though I cannot use it on there) I see little motivation to make a major effort to. They got rid of my horrible influence, have interred the good with my bones, and can continue to speak my evils as they see fit.

And until I am told differently I prefer to be annoyed at one solitary indiviudal who has made his feelings known that annoyed with a whole company who does some things I really enjoy.

[Final_Knight]

Hello all.

I come as a fellow survivor of the purge. Of course, I've gone incognito on the Forum, but an astute reader will recognize my wry wit.

Anyway... Jack's spot on. He's far more eloquent than I, so I'll just give him my "atta boy" and be done.

[Avenger]

Wow, my ears are burning. Thanks everyone for what they had to say. As, to my knowledge, the only person from that whole ugly fracas that didn't get banned, I'm left scratching my head. I'll grant that a couple of people said some pretty cruel things about KB and WW in general, but if anyone on the board was confrontational, it was me. And yet I'm not banned. Not only have we done away with free speech, but we've discarded justice as well.

As I said, I'll confess that some of the posts made by some people were reaching (as I put it at the time) "lynch-mob proportions", but it was hardly a reason to go on a banning binge. Lest we forget, WW is supposed to be the "cool" company, right? Gaming for "Mature" minds? Not your dad's RPG? And yet when it comes down to it, we see the ugly, warty face of corporate America. I understand that WW is in the business of selling books, and that really, as long as we keep buying them, they shouldn't really care less, right?

Right?

Wrong. If you're going to try and build a reputation around wonderful relations with your fan base and constantly having your hand on the pulse of the gamer society like WW has, you go the full nine, goddamn it. Don't coward out half way when things are starting to look bad. People are starting to turn on WW, especially the Aeon fans. It's a sign of the times. Will WW make steps to remedy this? Was this an isolated incident? Or when Trinity, Changeling, or gawd forbid Aberrant is picked away from the lineup like an old scab, will we see nothing more underneath than the shit they seem to be full of...?

Ugly, yeah. Sorry. The gonzo in me needs to creep up and play at times.

Oh, and Chosen, man. You may be grand-high-poobah board-master guy, but calling me a fanboy? Bad form.

Bad, bad form. I think you should apologize.

That word carries a lot of negative connotations. I don't know if you read the post or not, but the idea was to provoke Kraig (or anyone, really) into a response of some kind. When I offered to take the job on for free, that was as much a joke as anything else I said.

But that bit about making my personal character canon was legit. After all, Kraig did it, so it must be okay, right?

Right?

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Avenger]

Two bits I forgot:

Chosen -- I may not tend a site like you, something I have a lot of respect for you for. Obviously, you spend a lot of your time doing this, and don't think that I don't appreciate that. You're the man, man. I love you. Really. But calling me a "casual" fan hurt. I'm more invested in this game than the better number of people you'll ever meet. I've sent more proposals to Kraig and various other WW staffers than I can count, and every single one I wrote was calm, courteous and nothing other than professional. I'm no scrub. Writing is my livelihood.

I was subsequently ignored every single time.

It's my hope that eventually my perseverence will pay off. That finally, one day, some Developer or another is going to say to himself "Wow! This looks great! I should get ahold of this guy!" I can't say why they haven't yet, but I sincerely hope it's not because I'm a poor writer. That would, as the intelligentsia say, "suck", seeing as how everyone else I write for seems to get a lot out of what I do. But I digress.

I don't half-ass anything, I'm knowledgeable about Aberrant moreso than any other game I've ever played, I've got a lot of good ideas, and I am a writer of at least passing ability. I delegate authority well, I spot talent in others, and I have the drive, motivation and initiative to keep something as bulky as an entire game line going.

In short, I will never be Developer of Aberrant. But if, through some likely-as-the-Mommas-and-the-Poppas-making-a-comeback impossibility, I was offered the job...?

Yeah. I think I could handle it. At the very least, I'd give it my all. And yeah, I'd cash my paychecks.

I don't add this, Chosen, so as to aggrandize myself. I am, make no mistake, an egomaniacal prick, but I'm telling you this because I gotta say, you wounded my pride a bit. So in retaliation, I made you read all this, causing you to waste valuable seconds of your life listening to my self-promoting dreck.

Thanks for being master, man. ^_~

Wizard --

Thanks for the comment. You flattered me more than I deserve saying you thought my post was so funny. But thanks nonetheless.

Incidentally, I notice you live in San Diego. I used to live a bit north of SF, and back when I had a car, I traveled up and down the western seaboard every weekend. I've been to San Diego many times.

I'm sorry.

Honestly, I like SD. The north side, anyway. The parts I like to hang out in is a clean, well-kept, almost Seattle-quality city. It gets hot, but I enjoy the breeze blowing off the Pacific there. Excellent surf. The south side, however...

It reminds me of the festering, cancer-ridden crater that is Los Angeles. Which is never ever ever good.

Keep your head high, sir.

--@venger

[Matt]

Avenger,

When I said what I said, I didn't know who the hell you were. And I still don't. My complaint isn't with you, or your abilities. It's that you offered to do it for free. There is no way you had any credibility with them after saying that. And as I don't know what you wrote, all I know about it is from reading 1 sentence from SJEllis. If my calling you a fanboy or casual fan offended you, then you take things too seriously. Don't base your pride on what people that don't even know you think.

So you think your the man do you? Are you willing to prove it?

Everyone knows that I need help with the site. If you are as good as you say you are, then I would welcome the help.

There have been about 1/2 dozen people from AeonSociety.org (which N! Prime is still a part of) to land jobs of some sort with White Wolf. If you are interested in doing the work, let's work together to showcase it.

The worst thing that could happen is that you get a good critique of your work. The best thing is that you could get some experience developing something for a White Wolf game that a bunch of people will see.

I don't know what better peace offering I can make other than that. Please let me know if you are interested.

[Hugin]

Chosen, you kick ass. Just had to give you some respect. That was a nice way to address Avenger's posts and if WW handled things with the same amount of class I doubt any of this brough-ha-ha would have happened.

Oh, sorry not to have volunteered to help out with the sight, but I suck as an artist, writer and no less than jack about computers. Love the site though.

[Avenger]

Oh, Chosen. You just gave a monkey a live grenade, but...

What a monkey. What a grenade.

How could I pass it up? All I ever wanted was an invitation from anyone. I'll admit that I'm reticent to share my work with anyone I don't know too well, but the simple solution to that is to bother you daily until I feel comfortable with your assessment of my work. The problem with "constructive criticism" is that it usually comes from...well...for lack of a better term, "casual fans" and "fanboys" who can't write very well themselves, but somehow have the virtue or right to critique the work of others. I don't try and tell poor guitar players how to play better -- I can't play guitar. I don't tell skaters how to skate -- I can't skate, either. So it understandably tends to chap even the most hardened of writers to see "i think yur artickle was lam, you suk and so do yur wrting". Criticism from ones peers is one thing; I'm far from perfect, and every work has room to improve. It's always possible that the perspective of someone else might give you the encouragement or insight to see what was missing. As it is said, "No work is ever finished -- only abandoned."

But I'm thick-skinned. Give me your worst. The only thing that pisses me off more than poor reviews is no reviews at all.

I accept your challenge, Chosen, but I just wanted to point out that what I was saying is that, if put in control of the line, I'd give it my all. I take gaming seriously (well, about as seriously as one can), and as someone who considers himself more than a mere fanboy, I think I could do better -- not necessarily well, but better -- than many. That's all.

I'd love any chance to show what I can do, and I've got to thank you for the opportunity. You just tell me where to go from here, and I'm there. I've already got a couple of articles in the works, including:

A completed Null Manifesto,

A Duke Rollo article, and

Some in-character Aberrant fiction

Get back to me sometime and tell me what I can do. You've got my attention.

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Guest]

Avenger,

While I maynot have the creditials that Chosen may have I wouldn't mind taking a look at your work. Also my fiance is an excellent editor I could have her take a look to. feel free to e-mail any work you like Adsmwuif@aol.com.

[Avenger]

Ravencried --

Wow, thanks so much for the offer. I'll definetely have to take you up on that. If you can, why don't you send me a mail with a few more details (I'm admittedly a bit too paranoid about who sees my work, a common malady, I am told, amongst writers) and perhaps we could establish some sort of working relationship.

I notice you're going to university in Penn state, right? That means you're not even far from where I am. Whereabouts in Penn you at? JC, my town, sits right next to Binghamton, just over the state line.

Pleasantries aside, I really have to thank you for any opportunity to showcase my stuff. Nobody has taken an interest in my work in so long that I was beginning to wonder if perhaps I was some sort of anomolous, literary Schroedingers Cat or something. Also, are you only interested in Aberrant-related work, RPG-related work, or all of it? Most of what I do is social commentary and fantasy fiction.

You can go ahead and mail me anytime at venatresdeus@hotmail.com

--@venger

------------------

Don't try to run, you son of a bitch. You'll just die tired.

[Kane Knight]

As a meber of the new purge, lemme say this...

Bruce also defended KB's right to come down on us.

When me and a couple of people said we didn't like F+L, he came and gave us S*** in an arrogant little "I didn't expect you to understand it" style." I didn't read a single post that simply said "KB suckz! Thi$B00k iz unk3wl..." Merely people saying I don't like the style, I don't feel it adds much.

Now after he came down on us, a lotta people hit him with that stuff, but that was afterwards.

Many of us also wrote positive reviews of other Abbie books...

Meanwhile, I will agree. Some posts hit below the belt. However, a lot of them don't. Many of us just wanted answers.

My crime was asking what was so hard about keeping the lines of communication open, rather than waiting for the S*** to hit the fan.

For that, not only am I banned, but then he attacks me afterwards. Claiming things I didn't say or do.

Me biggest crime was one of assumption. I assumed that there was a rational mind behind that gestapo facade. Not to mention assumption that they would want to keep their customers in the loop, m happy, and not buying D20.

When we agreed to the ToS, we agreed to their lil catch all clause, that means anything they don't wanna hear can be against ToS.

We basically have no rights on the forums if they don't feel like giving them to us...

I have nothing against Bruce, or other WW peoples currently. Don't take this as a Slam at Whire Wolf. I would like to think the attitude presented on the Forums is that of tyhe person who causes the troubles, and not of White wolf.

------------------

The Eleventh Wonder of the World.

Hype, Sacrelige, Uniforms...

In loving memory of the integrity of the White Wolf Forums (RIP)

[Wizard]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kane Knight:
Bruce also defended KB's right...

Who defended who?