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Dave ST

World of Darkness: Attrition - Official OOC Thread

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I've got a lot to say about this, but I'll put the bulk of it into a spoiler, for the truly dedicated players, and below, I'll write the summary.

Click to reveal.. ( Long reply)
Yes. They had ways of knowing this guy or that guy was not a hunter. A member of their group specifically told them they felt it would be a bad idea to just slaughter the guards, and they should try to find another way. Their reasoning was explained. That reasoning, and subsequent attempt at finding an alternate method of dealing with the guards, was not just ignored, but completely rebuffed. A suggestion was made by another player that might have offered another way in, and/or a way to find out more about the guards and what was going on, and that, too, was ignored. No one took the initiative to do anything but charge forward and tell the one person questioning the whole situation to either "nut up, or shut up" as Tallahassee would say.

You suffered nothing. Rolls were made. They succeeded. Now, as far as the whole "worst sin committed" business goes, if you guys are planning on doing worse? By all means, I'll edit those out myself, and re-roll when all is said and done, and we'll see how those turn out. There are consequences for your action/inaction, just as there are for weekend-warrior CPAs who want to buy their kid a costume. I can rationalize the time of degeneration either way, but in this case, it's over and done with, so consider yourselves to have gotten a freebie- I'll apply the "double jeopardy" rule for this one.

In the real world, people don't go around wearing Ensign uniforms to let us know they're not going to be missed. There's no dove fluttering around someone's shoulders to indicate that they're innocent, and no flashing neon sign above a twisted psychopath's head. Sometimes we make the wrong call, and people suffer for it. That's just the way the world works. We aren't going to label everyone for you in WoDA, generally speaking, either. The villains will sometimes seem every inch the innocent during interrogation, while the real innocents may not always be completely clear. If you aren't comfortable with that ambiguity, and the moral and ethical decisions your character might have to make, and the potential consequences of those decisions, I can say without rancor or derision that you are probably better off in another game.

Now. The moderation. This is mostly in response to Rorx's outburst, but it also applies to everyone else. If you're bridling because you think it's unfair, consider this: How often has it happened, since you've been playing? How strictly, really, have we adhered to/enforced the various morality rules in any mechanical way? Read the actual RAW about Morality, Humanity, Harmony, etc. and then read the way we're using it. I guarantee we're more flexible. As for the people "sniping" at someone? If these guys had been shooting at the group, or posturing in an even vaguely threatening way, or talking about how much they were looking forward to putting some silver buckshot in a werewolf's ass, there wouldn't have been even the slightest hesitation on our part, as mods, to say, "Rip 'em apart. They asked for it." That didn't happen in this situation, and it didn't happen for a reason: We wanted to see how the characters are developing. You guys get a lot of freedom to destroy, kill, and cause havoc with relative impunity, mechanically speaking. Please don't get bent out of shape because this time, it didn't work out that way.

As many indications as Dave could think of were given that at least one of the guards was essentially harmless. One member of the group took that to heart, and got shot down. Now, if you, as players, feel cheated somehow, I'm sorry. That wasn't the intention. The intention was to get the characters to think a bit, to get a little more involved than just "run in, kill, get results, end fic" and maybe learn something. Sarah, the only character who didn't want to kill them, and who probably had the most justifiable reason to do so, took the same potential hit that the others involved did, so if you feel like sulking, ask her player how she feels about it.

Hell, ask the mods how we feel about it. I promise we're not happy either, even if it's for different reasons. wink

So. I've said all that to say this:

I support the decision made by Dave in this situation. We'll try to come to an agreement about when these rolls should be made in the future, and we'll communicate the results of that to you. If you don't think it's fair that your character could have suffered some kind of loss for not adhering to the ethical/moral codes they're supposed to follow, or you think that you weren't given enough information, or you think we're gunning for you, or want to punish the players, we'll be happy to chat with you about it personally. (It will probably end with us telling you to suck it up, but we'll at least hear you out.) In the end, though, it's a game. Fics are written, but it's a game. Don't take it too seriously.

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For what seems like the hundredth time today, but is probably only the sixth, let me state once again: I don't care about the degeneration, but that I was told yesterday that my character feels the effects of passing a Harmony check but not why. In other words, she has no knowledge that she's sinning, but still has to make the Harmony check.

I don't mind that Dave did the check then, since he stated that it was the worst sin she could commit in this situation, so waiting until the end wasn't necessary. I also don't care that you guys set us up (which you did, you crafty STs wink and yes, that is meant in good humor, not bitterness). That happens in a game and particularly in the World of Darkness. But the way that it was related to me was wrong, mechanically and logically.

I've agreed that my character will learn she's sinned and have the appropriate RP reaction to passing her Harmony check. I expect to enjoy relating this RP, and hope others do as well.

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Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC
In other words, she has no knowledge that she's sinning, but still has to make the Harmony check.

Going forward, this baby is being put to bed. People 'accidentally' sin every day. You do not need to be provided with proof to know you've sinned, the Lunes know, your spirit knows, even if you don't know it or think you don't know it, you still did it, and are accountable for it, spiritually and emotionally.

Werewolves do not follow 'Morality'. Do not compare Morality with Harmony. Do not compare Humanity with Morality. Do not compare Clarity or Wisdom with Morality. Although they may be similar they are not the same. Several times as I chatted with people they mentioned Morality and that it had not been violated. Well, you're right, Morality had not violated because no one follows morality but the Hunters (which still confuses the shit out of me).

I'd also like to thank Dawn, despite disagreeing with my decision she accepted it. She still argued her point (which I've no issue with at all), but even afterwards has accepted the decision. I, or we, are not always going to be right ladies and gentleman. At least not from your point of view. We have three mods and ten players and I bet if I asked you all to give me your interpretation of the 'Moral Systems' for all the Supers we'd have 13 different opinions.

Quote:
A werewolf who utterly succumbs to his bestial side loses the ability to control it. In order to retain their sanity and have a chance at some precious peace of mind, the Uratha must walk a middle path between animal and human, between spirit and flesh, between instinct and reason. This is the path of Harmony.

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If you're waiting on me for Long Night I'm not sure why. The back door is locked, as are the two side doors that connect directly to the sanctuary.

The two side doors are one-lite tempered glass that is slightly tinted, so any looking into the sanctuary will find it difficult to make anything out (-3), but those on the inside looking out suffer he same penalty.

The back door is a six panel slab with no windows, a lock set and a deadbolt.

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As I understand it, Sarah's job is to pick off those who try to flee through her assigned side door. She's waiting for whomever is going to kick this fiasco off to go in the front and start the mortals to scurrying.

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To: Those involved in the Long Night fic

Dave has bowed out of ST-ing this little rumpus (I can't say I blame him) so we're faced with some options. He was kind enough to share with me the details of what is waiting inside the church for us last night, so I am prepared to pinch-hit as ST for this one, at least for running the combat.

Question: Do those involved WANT to carry on with this fic? As far as I can tell, it's left a bad taste in a lot of mouths so far. There've been arguments and drama associated with it to the degree that even I've been half-tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But I'm willing to give this encounter a shot anyway, as long as O.T.N. isn't the only one charging in there: "Come on, ladies, we can take 'em...!" *ker-fuck-blammo* "Er, guys? Some help here? Lots of Hunters with boomsticks?"

I'm giving this post 48 hours to generate some response. Non-response will be treated as a "no" vote. "I'm easy either way" is not an option, either. Have a solid opinion and stick by it, please. Just so you know, this isn't a majority vote matter. If just ONE person says "No, this fic sucks butt, I'm not continuing" then the fic is closed and story-wise, never happened.

Harsh, but fair. We started the fic together, planned IC with everyone there in mind, so I'd say we finish together or not at all.

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I can keep going; if everyone else wants to, I'll do my part to keep it going. My slowdown has nothing to do with the plot itself and everything to do with the way Harmony is being run.

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If you'd like to discuss the issue with the mods, Dawn, please let us know. I was under the impression that everyone was already aware of the open-door policy with respect to the way rules and stories are handled, but if not, I'm happy to reiterate it here.

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Whilst I hate this fic, I hate the idea of the continuity break more. I'm for keeping it going.

And yeah, as soon as she hears the shooting start, duty will override Sarah's compunctions and she'll wind up charging into the fight, all teeth and claws.

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Originally Posted By: Vivi OOC
If you'd like to discuss the issue with the mods, Dawn, please let us know. I was under the impression that everyone was already aware of the open-door policy with respect to the way rules and stories are handled, but if not, I'm happy to reiterate it here.

I did discuss it with the mods, earlier in this thread, in fact, and was given an answer. I accept that the Mods have the right to interpret a rule any way they want, but the intrepretation of the way Harmony works in WoDA is wrong. However, the mods call it, and if I continue to play a werewolf character, I have to play by those rules. That doesn't change my opinion, or that it is pretty much the sole reason I'm having trouble continuing in Long Night. I wasn't trying to bitch as much as offer a concrete reason to the other players why I'm having so much trouble writing for Amber right now, as a courtesy to them.

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The ruling is pertaining to the current story, I'll not change something in mid fic. After the story is concluded if changes are needed or requested they can be reviewed then.

Rules are flexible, and as I said if asked we'd all give different interpretations of the way Harmony should be upheld. For the record, Dawn just because you say it's wrong doesn't mean it is. If we need to review it then we will but do not assume that your way is the right way.

We'll discuss it via PM, send myself, Vivi, and Sarah your thoughts and we'll see what agreement we can come up with.

Quote:
And yeah, as soon as she hears the shooting start, duty will override Sarah's compunctions and she'll wind up charging into the fight, all teeth and claws.

I'm afraid not.

This whole leaping in and leaping out of fictions just because someone had a wild bug up their ass one day is not going to happen. You deleted your post, then posted again 'quitting' the fiction.

I'm sorry, but you're out of this one, Sarah.

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Dave, she's off to the side, at the edge of the woods, listening as all this goes down. That much was clear in her post. So yes, she certain can be and likely will be back into the fight. It'll take her a few turns to get there, of course, which will be noted.

Speaking of jumping in-and-out of things, you backed off from running this fic. So I'll thank you to not come back in and dictate the actions of other players' characters.

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Okay, now that we have a unanimous result, we can move forward. Amber is next up by my reckoning, but I can understand that Dawn is still getting her R/L ™ straight, so I'll give her the time she's asked for there.

After Amber posts, we'll move to initiative and the first round. Once we enter combat, the 24 hour rule applies. I'll keep a running summary of what's happening in a Combat Thread. If I make an error in laying out your character's actions and position there, feel free to correct me.

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Sorry about the delay in getting Long Night moving, combat-wise. Having some RL stress issues, so not a whole lot of nervous energy to spare. I'll try to get it moving sometime in the next 36 hours. Again, sorry about this.

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I will be updating the Rules within the next 48 hours to address the fact that we will no longer be having IC chats, scheduled or otherwise, for WoDA. It's back to forum threads and PMs for communication, with the loss of the Beta chat room. The Moderators will discuss potential alternatives for the opportunity they represented for additional XP outside of fics.

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Which means that we can still have the IC chats. We should just add this to the Map/Resources thread I created a while ago, if we decide to not cancel the IC chats.

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Which means the Moderators will be discussing it. There's no point in attempting to use the resource if it's no longer going to be supported, and if it's going to be difficult for people to find. We appreciate your input, of course, Dawn, but we'll let everyone know when we come to a conclusion.

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Well, the downfall of Sarah is proceeding apace. To paraphrase Bender, "I like my Gangrels' first experiences with the Red Surrender to be as catastrophic as they are memorable." laugh

Onward to the Final Topanga Test of DOOM! (And then, the long, hard uphill slog.)

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For the werewolves - do we want to work our shit out OOC and then just have a post that says "and they debated for hours about their pack, territory, etc."? Otherwise, this will take months.

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C'mon Amber here's the chance you've been waiting for to post...

"They talked."

Then Dec can reply with:

"For hours."

Then Max...

"And hours."

Then Rorx:

"Moss listened."

And before we know it it'll feel like one of the PbP games. laugh

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OK. Real Life ™ has interceded and pulled Dave away from here. Vivi's stepping away as well.

I'm still here, folks, and still available if people need some moderation assistance, NPCs run, that sort of thing. Shoot me a line and I'll try to help you out.

- Jess (who really should move the mod stuff over to my OOC account)

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I'm gonna bow out of WoDA. I'm not much interested in OW games to begin with, and I've been limping along with Oneca for well over a year now. Thanks for the stories, guys!

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